Some opinions on proxy Feats and Objects

[Uberman]

Some facts:
-Proxies are generally to be frowned upon, especially with clicky things. I can see why they've always been pooh-pooh in this game. Proxy figures bad.
-Collectible rules, also bad. I've generally been somewhat against the role Feats play in the game, but more so I dislike that I can't use what is essentially a fairly simple rule [generally] comprised of about a sentence [when done right] simply becuase I don't have a piece of cardboard. Why CAN'T I use Protected if I pay for it?
-Heroclix was always supposed to be on-the-dial, but feats by their nature have broken this apart.

So I propose, for my home games at the very least [see question to follow], a supplementary rules companion, a la a D n' D book, called the Feats Compendium or somesuch. Allow players to build forces including feats from the Compendium , so long as they are recorded [team lists already require this anyways].

Is this such a terribly complicated system? Does anyone allow such a thing? Would you support or vehemently oppose something akin to this in the crazy post-rules-arb environment we're in? [Remember, this is a time for reinvention. Old rules [I]can be re-written.]

Usually I don't care, really. But now they've got the ATAs as prize cards, that bugs me. 'Cause I love ATAs. And I don't win prizes. I've extended it to Objects as well, because Mjolner is too cool a rule not to play on the boring Anvil object [when I don't win the gold one]. I've basically stripped the rules from the player's guide and reformatted it into a single booklet, along with object info as well. It's in a handy PDF now if anyone wants a copy. It's updated to include the new, hard-to-get Hammer of Thor stuff [which may not be 100% accurate.]

Some notes: I deleted Giant Stride and Divebomb entirely, as they are useless, added the pre-reprint versions of Flashbang and Brilliant Tactician in as Version Two feats [FB should stay, I can see BT being a dumb re-addition], and slighty re-write Look! Up in the Sky, Telekinetic Reach, and Vendetta to account for newer rulings [although, as with BT above, the Vendetta update is probably a bad idea].

[MattPetersen]

In home games you can do whatever you want. Go crazy!!!

As a judge though, I have never had a problem with a player using an ATA card if they don't have it as long as they pay the proper points for it have the characters written down for it and ANNOUNCE IT to the other players before the game.
Other feats, I did not allow proxies because it had the potential to get to crazy!

[MattMinus]

In the games that I'm judging all feats can be proxied. We've played like this for a long time and never had a problem. Collectible rules are stupid.

I supported this type of rule as a player, even though I had 5 protecteds and a warbound ;)

[Uberman]

I figure with the percentage cap on Feats it's even easier to manage anyways. There should have been some sort of one-feat-per guy or all Feats are Unique rule right from the get-go.

[absolutvt69]

I think it's fine as far as friendly games or local venues go as long as everyone's cool with it. Now in big events and such, I can see why they wouldn't allow it. Personally, I've never had a problem w/ someone using a feat that they don't have the card for as long as they tell me and they pay the points for it.

And this is from someone who has 7 Protecteds...

[Owlman]

Unless it's some big-time tournament, proxy feats shouldn't be a problem. My judge lets us print the feats out so that we have the exact wording on hand, and I don't see why it should be a problem. Printed on carboard, printed on paper, not much of a difference in my eyes.

[KallieK]

Our venue has always allowed proxy feats and BCFs.

[SimonMoon5]

Here's the main potential problem I see:

People who don't have the feat in front of them may not know exactly how it works. This means two things. First, the person using it may use it incorrectly to his advantage (without necessarily meaning to). For example, Player 1 uses an imaginary version of Pounce on Spider-Man. Player 1 doesn't recall exactly how it works, just that it lets him move Spider-Man and attack. So, Player 1 perplexes Spider-Man's damage up by 3 and has him pounce an opposing figure, not realizing that the card would tell him that that's illegal.

A second problem: Even if Player1 knows exactly how the feat works, his opponent may not remember (and may not want to look it up in an encyclopedia). For example, Player 1 uses an imaginary version of Camouflage on Apocalypse. Player 2 asks him how Camouflage works, Player two replies, "It's like I've got Stealth." So Player 2 assumes he can't use outwit on Apocalypse. So, Player 2 is screwed by not getting to see that actual wording.

[Tarnish]

Here's the main potential problem I see:

People who don't have the feat in front of them may not know exactly how it works. This means two things. First, the person using it may use it incorrectly to his advantage (without necessarily meaning to). For example, Player 1 uses an imaginary version of Pounce on Spider-Man. Player 1 doesn't recall exactly how it works, just that it lets him move Spider-Man and attack. So, Player 1 perplexes Spider-Man's damage up by 3 and has him pounce an opposing figure, not realizing that the card would tell him that that's illegal.

A second problem: Even if Player1 knows exactly how the feat works, his opponent may not remember (and may not want to look it up in an encyclopedia). For example, Player 1 uses an imaginary version of Camouflage on Apocalypse. Player 2 asks him how Camouflage works, Player two replies, "It's like I've got Stealth." So Player 2 assumes he can't use outwit on Apocalypse. So, Player 2 is screwed by not getting to see that actual wording.

This is solved when you have a handy print out of all the cards. What the OP describes is pretty much exactly what my group did years ago. It's how my sigged feat list got started. Each entry had the most current wording with any errata for the card as well. It actually makes things easier than only having a copy of the card.

Tarnish

[Uberman]

Nice to see I'm so cutting-edge on this!

I don't feel bad at all about my little 5-page booklet now. [It still chaps my ### that the Mjolner special object is the golden one, NOT the gray participation one, meaning there are only 3 copies of the "rules" to go with the 13 objects. Being faux-gold wasn't good enough? I miss the Horrorclix system... so communist. So pleasant.]

[MaxFortune]

I think it's fine as far as friendly games or local venues go as long as everyone's cool with it.

I smell another "the rules is the rules" thread brewing, with a side order of "God I hope I never play at your venue" simmering, and perhaps a dollop of "I can get your venue's prize support canceled" for dessert.

Man, didn't we just do this, like, a week ago? Damn, I hate leftovers... :tired:

(I'm NOT saying there's anything wrong with proxies. It's just that I've been reading/posting here for more than 2 years and I've already seen the way this kind of stuff always ends up...)

[Galactus]

If I were a judge I would allow it.

I can't see paying $20-$30 for a single figure let alone a piece of cardboard.

[Galactus]

I smell another "the rules is the rules" thread brewing, with a side order of "God I hope I never play at your venue" simmering, and perhaps a dollop of "I can get your venue's prize support canceled" for dessert.

LOL, that about sums it up. Rep to you!

[RavenProject]

1) WK already did most of the legwork for you. Look at the Unrestricted Player's Guide, Section 14.

2) My only problem with Proxies (outside of a Tournament) is when people are selective about it. If it's just a home game, then go ahead and let your buddy play a proxy of Earth-2 Superman or Sinestro Corps Batman or whatever. Print out the dial and glue it in place of some Common you've got too many of already.

-J

[Uberman]

Well, I know they did. That's where I got the text from.

But my point is going the extra step and taking this official document [or at least formerly official] and making it THE official source for feats. Making it legal as the Feat, or at least making feats somewhat more ephemeral as long as there's a hard copy of the text in some other official or quasi-official format.

It works for Feats [and BFCs] becuase it's fundamentally just text. There is no play piece. Proxy figures, on the other hand, are a pain and a bother and too hard to ensure match the official numbers and stuff. I would buy a Wizkid's-published book in the form I've suggested it if it means I can use all the stuff in it in my game. A Feats Compendium. A Sourcebook. [10 pages or so, not the 85 page monstrosity].