Valkyrie - range support???

[artangelJMW]

I recently was in a tournament were the judge ruled that the Valkyrie common could use support on Thor from range??? I have been playing for awhile now and I am almost 100% positive that you have to be a adjacent to give someone a band-aid. Her power reads on the card:

MINION: TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY: When a friendly character with both the Asgardian and Deity keywords is within 8 squares, Valkyrie can use Support and can use the carry ability, but only to carry friendly characters that have the Asgardian keyword.

What do you guys think??? I think that I was screwed out of a tournament victory! I was chipping away at the common Thor and then his valkyrie healed him all the way up to his starting click from 3 squares away. I called the judge over because something is very fishy and the judge ruled in his favor. Thor then proceeded to rape my team. It goes to show you kids that hard work and determination will get you nowhere.

[Superclone]

Sorry, but the judge is wrong.

It specifically names Support and the Carry Ability. These are defined in the game (i.e. not reworded) and thus all rules applying to them still apply with this ability. The 8 squares only applies to when these powers are available, not how they are used.

[artangelJMW]

That is what I said and i showed them the PAC and still nothing...

[KillerSavage]

That is junk. Rulings like that are part of the reason I left AP for awhile. Which ended up being almost two years due to wizkids little sleepy nap time.

[Hesster56]

You got hosed. Demand satisfaction.

I don't know from whom you'll be requesting that satisfaction from, but you should still demand it.

If I think like an idiot I can see how the judge was thinking, but...no. Just no.

[madslaust]

No, it does not work that way.

And that's terrible to be subjected to.

[ol_Dut]

Support, in general, is a power that I believe has no place in the game at all. I have yet to see Superman stop for a band-aid in the middle of a fight. However, Support from range will be the absolute death of the game. You took the pain for your judge's mistake. I'd advise dumping runny pudding on his head the next time you see him/her. The green kind is funniest.

[llyrghmnghyll]

This is not a hard ruling at all, this is not an instance of rules change, confusing rules, or anything else.

Possibly he was having a bad day: Break Up, Death in the family, etc. But barring that he owes you a piece.

[tom730]

I recently was in a tournament were the judge ruled that the Valkyrie common could use support on Thor from range??? I have been playing for awhile now and I am almost 100% positive that you have to be a adjacent to give someone a band-aid. Her power reads on the card:

MINION: TODAY IS NOT THAT DAY: When a friendly character with both the Asgardian and Deity keywords is within 8 squares, Valkyrie can use Support and can use the carry ability, but only to carry friendly characters that have the Asgardian keyword.

What do you guys think??? I think that I was screwed out of a tournament victory! I was chipping away at the common Thor and then his valkyrie healed him all the way up to his starting click from 3 squares away. I called the judge over because something is very fishy and the judge ruled in his favor. Thor then proceeded to rape my team. It goes to show you kids that hard work and determination will get you nowhere.

That was me.
At the beginning of the tournament I announced that in the absence of an RA and official rulings on all the various new SPs, I would make a ruling and do so as quickly, fairly and consistently as I was able.
I also said that I may end up being proven wrong and apologize in advance.
But I am running the tournament and will be responsible for rulings.
I am sorry that my "pre-emptive apology" for any possible mistakes was not acceptable.
I will also point out that EVERYONE at that game (18 players) including the OP went home with a prize from the new OP Kit, a BIBTB Surtur, or a Thor's Mighty Chariot.
My rationale was basically that "support from range" as a SP has already happened, and the wording was subject to interpretation.
My interpretation may very well have been wrong.
I already apologized for that possibility in advance, and since it was not accepted then I won't be bothering to do so again at this time.

[tom730]

This is not a hard ruling at all, this is not an instance of rules change, confusing rules, or anything else.

Possibly he was having a bad day: Break Up, Death in the family, etc. But barring that he owes you a piece.

Not that it excuses bad rulings, but following a car accident in July I have been experiencing severe back pain. So pretty much every day is a "bad day" compared to before my accident.
I'm on pain and muscle relaxer meds, do my best, try to make sure the game is supported, people have fun, the venue is supported and people get cool prizes.

[tom730]

double post, sorry

[markrochip]

Hey, every now and then a bad ruling has to be made. A judge can only make so many right interpretations before one of them goes renegade.

Regardless, I still think that preemptive apology doesn't negate future apologies. That seems kind of harsh. Adversely, nobody really owes anything to anyone. Without official WK Organized Play, we are allowed to make mistakes.

There's only one way for the OP and tom730 to fix this: hug it out.

[WarHULK]

That was me.
At the beginning of the tournament I announced that in the absence of an RA and official rulings on all the various new SPs, I would make a ruling and do so as quickly, fairly and consistently as I was able.
I also said that I may end up being proven wrong and apologize in advance.
But I am running the tournament and will be responsible for rulings.
I am sorry that my "pre-emptive apology" for any possible mistakes was not acceptable.
I will also point out that EVERYONE at that game (18 players) including the OP went home with a prize from the new OP Kit, a BIBTB Surtur, or a Thor's Mighty Chariot.
My rationale was basically that "support from range" as a SP has already happened, and the wording was subject to interpretation.
My interpretation may very well have been wrong.
I already apologized for that possibility in advance, and since it was not accepted then I won't be bothering to do so again at this time.

Don't take it personally. Obviously, he came for answers because he believed your ruling was incorrect. He was right, in that belief. Things may not have been as polite as they could have been but in the long run everyone found out the correct ruling and now the problem is resolved. No need for anyone to get really upset about all this.

[tom730]

Don't take it personally. Obviously, he came for answers because he believed your ruling was incorrect. He was right, in that belief. Things may not have been as polite as they could have been but in the long run everyone found out the correct ruling and now the problem is resolved. No need for anyone to get really upset about all this.

Something about the phrase "screwed out of a tournament victory" made it sound a little personal to me, and I was disappointed in that.
We also have a long, and what I've considered a very amicable relationship, so that also made a little disappointing to me.

I totally understand being disappointed. It happens every day, even in a game.
I agree with the OP that sometimes "hard work and determination gets you nowhere."
I guess I was feeling a little of the same by the post.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Thank you for coming on line and explaining yourself. That takes guts, and I respect that.

However I fail to see where anything here is confusing or ambiguous. Your logic that Healing at range has been allowed before has nothing to do with this power, as it in no way even implies that support can be used at range.

Also apologizing in advance does not excuse everything or anything really. It just gives you a tiny bit of leeway.

I'm also very impressed that everyone went home with a prize, that's awesome to hear.

[tom730]

Thank you for coming on line and explaining yourself. That takes guts, and I respect that.

However I fail to see where anything here is confusing or ambiguous. Your logic that Healing at range has been allowed before has nothing to do with this power, as it in no way even implies that support can be used at range.

Also apologizing in advance does not excuse everything or anything really. It just gives you a tiny bit of leeway.

I'm also very impressed that everyone went home with a prize, that's awesome to hear.

I'm glad you appreciate my "guts." It may be that, it may be something else, I'm really not sure of my motivation here to tell you the truth.
Apologizing in advance in this case is the same as a "disclaimer" or "warning" to participants that I may not get everything right, that I'll do the best I can. In my opinion it actually does "absolve" me.
Thanks for your opinion regarding that "it gives a tiny bit of leeway," but with all due respect, being the Judge of the event gives me all the "leeway" I need to make rulings, right or wrong.
That has always been the case in OP/AP.
The fact that there have been no official rulings regarding any of the new SPs made me think I should at least let everyone know in advance that what has actually always been the case (the Judge's rulings stand) would still be in effect, and that I would apologize in advance if I'm shown to be wrong in the future.
The other player in that game clearly thought that was how the SP worked, I read it and made a ruling.
Once Norm, NECA/WK, or someone authorized to make official rulings on SPs states it was wrong we will all know for sure.
At that moment, I did what I was supposed to do. Rule without bias as quickly and consistently as possible.
Reflecting on it, my guess is I ruled incorrectly.
It happens.
Glad you were impressed that everyone went home with prizes.
I really do my best to treat all the players well.

[Quebbster]

My rationale was basically that "support from range" as a SP has already happened, and the wording was subject to interpretation.
The difference is of course that in the previous case it was spelled out clearly in the SP description.
Donna Troy can use Support, but can treat friendly characters 3 or fewer squares away as if they were adjacent.
I don't quite see the ambiguity involved in the Valkyrie SP.
When a friendly character with both the Asgardian and Deity keywords is within 8 squares, Valkyrie has Support and can carry friendly characters with the Asgardian keyword.
It just says that she 'has Support', not that she can use it in a way different than the one described on the PAC.

Oh well. As you say, judges do make mistakes sometimes - the important thing is that you are consistent, and inform everyone when you have made an error.

[tom730]

The difference is of course that in the previous case it was spelled out clearly in the SP description.

I don't quite see the ambiguity involved in the Valkyrie SP.

It just says that she 'has Support', not that she can use it in a way different than the one described on the PAC.

Oh well. As you say, judges do make mistakes sometimes - the important thing is that you are consistent, and inform everyone when you have made an error.

In retrospect, I don't disagree with anything you said.

[artangelJMW]

Tom,

I didn't mean to sound like I took it personal. I just wanted the reassurance that I was right. I am a control freak and have a lot of issues. So knowing that I am right is slightly reassuring even if that leaves me dead right sometimes. And I was mostly using the forums to vent like 90% of the people on this site.

[artangelJMW]

Also the card say Valkyrie may use support and the units section it says she has support.

[JDKenada]

Apologizing in advance in this case is the same as a "disclaimer" or "warning" to participants that I may not get everything right, that I'll do the best I can. In my opinion it actually does "absolve" me.


While you made a mistake, and admit it, saying sorry ahead of time does not get you off the hook so to speak. Yes, it should allow for some understanding, but not absolvement. If I said my vision was lacking, but is still good enough to allow me to legally drive and I hit your parked motorcycle would saying my vision was lacking absolve me? No, it wouldn't.

I'm in no means trying to be harsh or a jerk here...just saying just because you apologize once doesn't mean it clean slates you from having to do it again.

Still, you're entitled to make mistakes and the important thing is you're trying to look out for your venue.

[ZZZ]

While you made a mistake, and admit it, saying sorry ahead of time does not get you off the hook so to speak. Yes, it should allow for some understanding, but not absolvement. If I said my vision was lacking, but is still good enough to allow me to legally drive and I hit your parked motorcycle would saying my vision was lacking absolve me? No, it wouldn't.

I'm in no means trying to be harsh or a jerk here...just saying just because you apologize once doesn't mean it clean slates you from having to do it again.

Still, you're entitled to make mistakes and the important thing is you're trying to look out for your venue.
Way to compare apple and oranges. He apologized in advance for any botched calls. Just because you and others want him to keep saying it doesn't mean that he should or that he needs to. His initial apology, I assume, was sincere. That's enough.

If he did it on purpose then I could see all the acrimony. He did his best and admitted his mistake. What's the big deal?

[Silver Lantern]

Edited out post.

[bigmac267]

Just my two cents, but being a judge in an increasingly complicated game is not always easy. I'm not a Heroclix judge, but I judged Yugioh for several years and amidst the chaos of the week of a new set release, not all powers are well known by everyone and a simple misread could cause this kind of situation. I do feel that he could apologize once more, but the preemptive apology, along with the fact that everyone at the event went home with a prize, should excuse his mistake. Now, if the judge were to constantly make rulings like this or continue to insist that this is how it works, it would be a different story.

[artangelJMW]

Tom I am really sorry about everybody yelling at you I didn't mean for that to happen at all. To everyone else Tom is a great judge and I love playing games with him.

[BigDaddyHub]

Hey artangelJMW,
There's a little thing at the top called "thread tools." Drop that little menu down and close this thread. It's obvious that this has turned into a train wreck.

[Quebbster]

Also the card say Valkyrie may use support and the units section it says she has support.
Probably a copy-paste error. We were in a hurry to get all the dials into the Units section. :)
Hey artangelJMW,
There's a little thing at the top called "thread tools." Drop that little menu down and close this thread. It's obvious that this has turned into a train wreck.
Or a friendly moderator can close it. :)