2nd Level Elevated Terrain

[TheSpirit]

I've got a few projects in the works here. First is an improved set of the current rules, uniting all the FAQs with the original rules and rewriting it for clarity's sake while maintaining the current system. That's HeroClix Rules 1.5 Edition, so stay tuned.

But I'm also planning HeroClix Rules 2.0 Edition, a thorough revision of the rules to eliminate a number of concepts I find ludicrous and adding in some new touches. So I thought I would test the waters and give everyone here a preview of my work. Let me know what you think of... 2nd Level Elevated Terrain.


2ND LEVEL ELEVATION

Not all buildings are the same height on the battlefield. Office buildings, church bell towers, and other features represent another level of elevation in HeroClix. Second level elevation on outdoor maps is marked with the same thick black lines denoting blocking terrain with a parallel thin dashed line and the number "2", as in "- - 2 - - 2 - - 2 -…".

Movement and 2nd Level Elevation

Movement between 1st and 2nd Level Elevated Terrain is treated the same as movement between Ground Level and Elevated. Figures without a super power allowing them to move to elevated (eg, leap/climb, flying) must use stairs or ladders to access this upper level, or be transported by another figure via flying or TK.
Where a square of ground level terrain meets 2nd Level terrain (without an intervening square of 1st level terrain), there are additional movement costs. Flying and Phasing figures must spend 1 extra movement to reach this upper level directly from the ground, while Leap/Climb figures spend 2 movement points. Ladders from ground level to 2nd Level cost 1 extra movement to climb. This is to represent the added height of the building, and increased time and effort it takes to reach the top.

Ranged Combat and 2nd Level Elevation

Ranged combat between figures who both occupy 2nd Level elevated terrain ignore terrain and figures on any lower level in between. All other LoF rules are determined normally.
Ranged combat between figures on 1st and 2nd Level Elevated terrain are treated the same as combat between figures on the ground and 1st level terrain. When firing between the 1st and 2nd Level, ignore any terrain or figures on ground level squares between the two elevations.
Figures on the ground firing up at 2nd level elevation have their range reduced by 1 (to represent the extra distance needed to fire to this level). Squares of 1st level terrain between the ground attacker and 2nd Level target do not block LoF, but any terrain or figures on the first square of 1st level elevation (the roof edge) do interfere with LoF normally. Where squares of ground level and 2nd level elevation directly meet, a figure on the ground level square cannot attack a figure on the 2nd level elevation square. Otherwise follow the same rules as ground figures firing at 1st level elevation.
Figures on 2nd level elevation firing down at ground figures follow the same rules as 1st level elevated attackers firing at ground figures, except they cannot fire at figures on the ground directly behind any elevated terrain (1st or 2nd). Also, any square of 2nd level of terrain between attacker and target blocks LoF determination. This represents the "blind spot" caused by the angle of attack. Note this means that where a square of 2nd level elevation meets directly with a ground square, figures in those squares cannot attack each other at all.

Knock Back off 2nd Level Elevation

Any figure knocked off 2nd Level elevation to 1st level elevation is treated the same as a figure knocked off 1st level elevation to the ground.
Any figure knocked off 2nd Level Elevation directly to the ground suffers 3 clicks of damage (as opposed to 2 clicks for 1st level elevated terrain). Flying figures take no extra damage when knocked off 2nd Level Elevated Terrain.

Destroying 2nd Level Elevated Terrain

Squares of 2nd Level elevated terrain can be targeted and destroyed normally. Figures can target either the 2nd level square or the 1st level square beneath it, and must do 3 clicks of damage. Place a rubble tile on the square. This square is considered 1st level elevated hindering terrain. Elevated rubble cannot be further damaged or reduced to ground level rubble. All other rules for destroyed elevated terrain apply normally.

2nd Level Elevated Blocking Terrain

Blocking terrain on 2nd Level Elevated terrain (such as air conditioners) is treated the same as 1st Level Elevated Blocking Terrain.

Thrown Objects from 2nd Level Elevated

Objects thrown by figures on 2nd Level Elevated Terrain at figures on the ground inflict 1 extra click of damage. Ranged attacks using Telekinesis do not receive this damage bonus, nor do attacks from 2nd Level to 1st Level Elevated. Objects thrown from ground or 1st Level Elevated at figures on 2nd Level Elevated are treated as per Ranged Combat and 2nd Level Elevation rules.


So, have I forgotten anything? Is everything clear? Does any of this not make sense/not work/cause problems with the current rules?

[Tsannik]

You know, I did post something here..

I removed it because I don't even want to get involved in such a discussion. It will make my head explode.

[TheSpirit]

Tsannik, your head threatens to explode a lot. You might want to get that checked.

If you don't want to start something here, PM me with your thoughts. Although we've occassionally had disagreements, I do value your opinion. Even if it's just to tell me you don't want to bother thinking about alternate rules. I enjoy tinkering with game rules, but I can understand why wading into this territory with this game isn't fun. Any serious discussion is usually derailed by extremists who believe every word of the current system is perfect, and the extremists of the other direction who think WK couldn't write their own name without screwing up. I'm trying to stick to the middle ground.

[Tsannik]

Well, in my opinion...


They should just treat this like '2nd level elevation on 1st level elevation'. (since they do have drawings in them, they are Hindering also)

Make no Blocking terrain (other than Barrier) can be destroyed on an Outdoor map. (That way no 'rooms' can be created on an Outdoor map---which is not suppsoed to have 'rooms' in the first place)

Treat any Line of Fire issues from 2nd/1st the same as it is treated 1st/ground.

This would mean that most times no figure on 2nd level terrain could ever see anyone on grounded terrain (as the only blocking terrain can be in the attacker's square)

So, the only thing added would be that there are more than one elevation. This would keep all the same rules we've been using. basically standardizing the way everything is treated.

The last thing I want to see is more rules added. Just makes for more confusion.

I wholly do not agree with the way it is officially supposed to be interpreted. It just doesn't make sense.

Does this make sense?

I know they want to keep the 'there are only 2 elevations: Grounded-Elevated'.... but that just doesn't work with what they've got here.

If they said there can be many elevations, and then treated them all the same (as elevted/grounded combat is treated) I know this would be so much easier.

[MarkFinn]

I don't really like this idea, as it's too much extra ruling for something that will almost never come up.

Church bells, gargoyles, crosses on things, etc, are all objects that Batman, Spider-Man and (the new) Daredevil could certainly access. But in comics, it's mostly for posing, not fighting, or very rarely, used in story-telling to finish a fight.

In Heroclix, it needlessly complicates things. You want to destroy that stuff? Fine. Do your three clix and swap it out for debris tokens. But that additional elevation will only confuse people more.

There's an implied height scale in the bases of all of the flying characters...six different clix of elevation. That seems like an easy thing, in terms of mods to attack and defense. But here's something else to consider: When you start playing with those kinds of elevation rules, you need to be prepared for characters with leap/climb stopping halfway up the wall to end their turn. Not really a problem with Spider-Man, but Batman isn't a wall-crawler.

I get the impression that some of the Heroclix rules were simplified on purpose. As individuals, we decide how much to complicate them. I like them simple.

[Tsannik]

MarkFinn.... with all due respect... you're overcomplicating things here..

Let me try and exlpain...

With the current ruling...
The A/C units are basically considered rooms (a you can destroy as section of wall). But they are not treated as rooms (as there are no rooms on an Outdoor map). I believe the current ruling is that you can be knocked off these squares, but you would not suffer falling damage (as they are considered the same elevation).

This simplification breaks so many other rules that it just doesn't make sense.

It's even difficult to explain it here...

If they wanted only 2 elevations, then they should not have put those items on the map. Or say that NO figure may go into those squares. Now that's simplification that works.

If you can tell me that you fully understand how the current ruling works, then I'll give it to you. But for now, I am vehemently saying that this current ruling is not making this game simplier.

[TheSpirit]

OK, just to be clear, these rules aren't meant for the current maps. The air conditioners and whatnot on the current outdoor maps aren't the 2nd Level Elevated Terrain I'm talking about. A friend of mine built a 3D street map, with one storey buildings on one side of the street, and 2 storey buildings on the other. These rules came out of that design. There were obvious house rules we needed to create to handle the different elevations, and that's what started me thinking about this. These rules are meant for people creating their own maps.

I haven't touched the outdoor elevated blocking terrain issue with these rules. That's something I haven't taken a good look at yet, so I hope people won't debate that aspect too much yet. At least, not in this thread. Trust me, my 2.0 Rules will deal with elevated blocking terrain.

MarkFinn, I'm trying to take into account all those issues that happen when you add different levels of elevation. That's the whole point. Here's how your L/C problem would be treated: if the l/c figure doesn't have enough movement left to pay the extra 2 points to move all the way to the 2nd level roof, then he can't get there that turn. No stopping halfway up, the same way you can't move 7 squares when you only have a 6 speed. I appreciate your desire to keep things simple, though. And thanks for the comments.

[Tsannik]

Well, there you go!

Since it doesn't involve the real rules... then all my points are moot.
No head exploding!

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Tsannik
MarkFinn.... with all due respect... you're overcomplicating things here..

Let me try and exlpain...

With the current ruling...
The A/C units are basically considered rooms (a you can destroy as section of wall). But they are not treated as rooms (as there are no rooms on an Outdoor map). I believe the current ruling is that you can be knocked off these squares, but you would not suffer falling damage (as they are considered the same elevation).

This simplification breaks so many other rules that it just doesn't make sense.

It's even difficult to explain it here...

If they wanted only 2 elevations, then they should not have put those items on the map. Or say that NO figure may go into those squares. Now that's simplification that works.

If you can tell me that you fully understand how the current ruling works, then I'll give it to you. But for now, I am vehemently saying that this current ruling is not making this game simplier.

So, let me get this straight: The A/C unit is NOT hindering terrain? Because that's how we've been playing it. Simple, you know? Not needlessly complicated.

[Tsannik]

From what I understand... they are 'Elevated Blocking Terrain' which is not considered Hindering

I'm not exactly sure what they are...
I'm not going to think about it...

Maybe Double_a or HeroComplex will pop in here and explain, but this is one of those few times I will not try and give a ruling.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
OK, just to be clear, these rules aren't meant for the current maps. The air conditioners and whatnot on the current outdoor maps aren't the 2nd Level Elevated Terrain I'm talking about. A friend of mine built a 3D street map, with one storey buildings on one side of the street, and 2 storey buildings on the other. These rules came out of that design. There were obvious house rules we needed to create to handle the different elevations, and that's what started me thinking about this. These rules are meant for people creating their own maps.

MarkFinn, I'm trying to take into account all those issues that happen when you add different levels of elevation. That's the whole point. Here's how your L/C problem would be treated: if the l/c figure doesn't have enough movement left to pay the extra 2 points to move all the way to the 2nd level roof, then he can't get there that turn. No stopping halfway up, the same way you can't move 7 squares when you only have a 6 speed. I appreciate your desire to keep things simple, though. And thanks for the comments.

I'll give you my house rule for elevated terrain, then. I'm doing a 3D map that's nothing but rooftops (where all of the really good Marvel Battles take place) and I'm planning on three different heights for the buildings...3", 6", and 9". For every height level that you change, up or down, it costs a point of movement. If two figures are on opposite buildings and within range, then they can shoot each other, with a + or - 1 per level of height difference between them. That's it, nothing else. The higher character has the advantage, because he can step back one square and not be seen. The lower character had better find a chimney or an a/c unit to hide behind (it's all blocking terrain on the rooftops).

That's how I'm doing it.

[Styrix]

From what I understand, elevated terrain is any terrain on the outdoor map surrounded by thick balck lines that also has a ladder or stairs. All other terrain surrounded by thick black lines is blocking. That's pretty clear.

Example: AC vent on top of building has a thick black line arround it. The building has a ladder that goes up to it. The building is elevated. The AC vent on top of the building, having no ladder or stairs, is blocking. Makes sense.

This is to keep non-range non-superstrength non-leap/climbers in the game, and everyone eventually accesible to everyone else.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Tsannik
From what I understand... they are 'Elevated Blocking Terrain' which is not considered Hindering

I'm not exactly sure what they are...
I'm not going to think about it...

Maybe Double_a or HeroComplex will pop in here and explain, but this is one of those few times I will not try and give a ruling.

*sigh*
Well, then, Tsannik, that's fine. Elevated Blocking Terrain. Why sweat it?
I don't understand your fretting over this situation. It seems pretty clear.
Did I misinterpret or overcomplicate again?

[Tsannik]

Well...

A single wall can be destroyed on it... so it acts' like a room.

But you can get on top of it and shoot out... so it acts like it's elevated-elevated...

But you don't get the same 'you can see all figure on lower elevation' like you do for elevated to grounded... so it doesn't act like elevated-elevated.. it acts like same elevation...

But someone adjacent can't attack because of the blocking terrain...so it acts like elevated-elevated

There are just too many contridictions....

Does that kinda help show what the thought process is?
I'm trying not to sweat it, but....
I wash my hands of this one.

[TheSpirit]

MarkFinn, it sounds like your rules are pretty similar to mine. Yours are simple enough to handle the specific map you've made, while mine are designed to handle any map created. I've just rounded mine out with new ideas such as objects in attack and the blind spot in the lee of buildings, and covered things such as knockback you've overlooked (intentionally or not). Guess that means I'm on the right track.

[Heroix]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
(snip) That's HeroClix Rules 1.5 Edition, so stay tuned. But I'm also planning HeroClix Rules 2.0 Edition, a thorough revision of the rules ...

Umm ... can I make a suggestion? Unless your work is sanctioned by WizKids, I'd recommend caution about using labels like "HeroClix Rules 2.0 Edition" for your personal rules revisions.

Let me know what you think of... 2nd Level Elevated Terrain.


2ND LEVEL ELEVATION

Not all buildings are the same height on the battlefield.

So far, so good. For a long time I have wished for, and tried to promote, more "dimension" to HeroClix maps (at least as an option for friendly play). But, as a summary statement, and at the risk of being a pill, it seems to me that adding a "second level elevation" to the mix simply defers the problem momentarily. That is to say, why stop at "second level elevation"? Why not "third level elevation," "fourth," and so on? Take a look at the top of the Empire State Building, for example ... or imagine something like a small metro convention center that has five stories that don't all have the same floorplan, and thus it has three to five different roof elevations. Now I realize that none of the official maps (so far) get to this level of complexity, but then again, none of them have - - 2 - - 2 - - 2 - - markings, either. In my opinion, if you're going to go to the trouble of accommodating more vertical space in HeroClix, you might as well go all the way to suggested rules for a full 3D environment (http://www.heroix.info/rulez/3d.html).

Your movement rules make perfect sense to me within your system, but again they start to break down if you think in terms of still higher elevations.

Ranged Combat and 2nd Level Elevation

(some stuff snipped ...)

Figures on the ground firing up at 2nd level elevation have their range reduced by 1 (to represent the extra distance needed to fire to this level).

Same song. It makes perfect sense internal to the system you're proposing. But it breaks down if you think in terms of actual realistic vertical dimensions. I'd rather have the heights of various terrain features specified on the map, and then just figure range as a function of firing through 3D cubes rather than 2D squares. Thus, the church roof might be about 18-20 feet off the ground (equivalent to 3 squares high) and the bell tower might be 30 feet off the ground (equivalent to 5 squares high). On the other hand, the roof of a one-story downtown office building might be 12-15 feet off the ground (call it 2 squares high) and a large industrial object on the roof might be 5-6 feet high (call it 1 square). So the Black Cat perched on top of the machinery on top of the office bulding would be closer to a grounded Cyclops than Spider-Man perched atop the bell tower. This is why I don't find two levels of elevation (above grounded) to be particularly better than one.

Just cross-apply those comments to the issue of knockback and damage suffered from falling from 2nd level elevation.

(snip ...)

2nd Level Elevated Blocking Terrain

Blocking terrain on 2nd Level Elevated terrain (such as air conditioners) is treated the same as 1st Level Elevated Blocking Terrain.

Here is where I think the system starts to break down a bit. Since characters can potentially end their move on top of blocking terrain with Leap/Climb, how do you conceptually tell the difference between "2nd level elevated terrain" and "blocking terrain on 1st level elevated terrain"? Why doesn't "blocking terrain on 2nd level elevated terrain" constitute "3rd level elevated terrain"? This is why I think that suggested rules for a full 3D environment (http://www.heroix.info/rulez/3d.html) are preferable to simply one additional "level" of "elevated terrain." It seems to me better to either go full-bore 3D or stick with the extremely simplified rulebook dimensions.

Thrown Objects from 2nd Level Elevated

Objects thrown by figures on 2nd Level Elevated Terrain at figures on the ground inflict 1 extra click of damage. Ranged attacks using Telekinesis do not receive this damage bonus, nor do attacks from 2nd Level to 1st Level Elevated.

Why the damage bonus? At one level it makes sense as a function of the acceleration of the object due to gravity. But if that's your point, then there also ought to be some sort of negative Attack modifier to represent that extra elapsed time giving the target figure an increased chance to dodge. And if it's about gravity, then I don't quite get why an object propelled with TK should not be affected the same way as an object thrown with brute strength.

So, have I forgotten anything? Is everything clear? Does any of this not make sense/not work/cause problems with the current rules?

I do think that most everything you have suggested is clear and internally coherent. That is, the system works (for the most part) as a system. Specific comments above where there are parts of it that gave me pause. Overall, while I admire the thought and care you have put into this suggestion, I am not attracted to it. Once you start adding levels of elevation, you are on a "slippery slope" to a potentially infite number of levels (although practically speaking you'd eventually exceed the relative height of the world's tallest buildings). So, my thinking is, why not go all the way and work with rules (http://www.heroix.info/rulez/3d.html) that can support a full 3D environment. Well, that's my opinion and my reasoning. If nothing else, you gave my brain a workout. It didn't come anywhere near exploding, though. :)

[Heroix]

Originally posted by MarkFinn
When you start playing with those kinds of elevation rules, you need to be prepared for characters with leap/climb stopping halfway up the wall to end their turn. Not really a problem with Spider-Man, but Batman isn't a wall-crawler.

Well, I do still have visions in my head of the campy TV Batman & Robin climbing up the sides of buildings using their bat-ropes, stopping to speak along the way to kind concerned citizens who stick their heads out of the windows ... :p

[Heroix]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
OK, just to be clear, these rules aren't meant for the current maps. The air conditioners and whatnot on the current outdoor maps aren't the 2nd Level Elevated Terrain I'm talking about. A friend of mine built a 3D street map, with one storey buildings on one side of the street, and 2 storey buildings on the other. These rules came out of that design. There were obvious house rules we needed to create to handle the different elevations, and that's what started me thinking about this. These rules are meant for people creating their own maps.

That's all the more reason why you need to accommodate more than two levels of elevated terrain. What if your friend now decided to add a three-story building to his 3D setup? A five-story building? You see my point? The "2nd level elevated terrain" rules work fine as long as you only have two levels of elevated terrain. You go beyond that, you have to have new rules. Thus a comprehensive set of suggested rules for a full 3D environment (http://www.heroix.info/rulez/3d.html) seems preferable to me. And that gets you around the issue of "outdoor elevated blocking terrain" too, because all you have to do is define the height of those features.

MarkFinn, I'm trying to take into account all those issues that happen when you add different levels of elevation. That's the whole point. Here's how your L/C problem would be treated: if the l/c figure doesn't have enough movement left to pay the extra 2 points to move all the way to the 2nd level roof, then he can't get there that turn. No stopping halfway up, the same way you can't move 7 squares when you only have a 6 speed. I appreciate your desire to keep things simple, though. And thanks for the comments.

But isn't it a little silly to say that Spider-Man couldn't stop halfway up a building? Or even Batman or Daredevil or the Black Cat, etc., for that matter? Of course they can stop halfway up; they do it all the time. Thus a set of "advanced rules" for multiple elevations should allow for that.

[Heroix]

Originally posted by MarkFinn


So, let me get this straight: The A/C unit is NOT hindering terrain? Because that's how we've been playing it. Simple, you know? Not needlessly complicated.

If the square has a thick black line around it, it's blocking terrain. If the terrain feature is merely illustrated without the black line around the square on the grid, it's hindering terrain.

On Map 2, the outdoor map that comes with Marvel starters, there are different thicknesses of lines, but I think the intent is that if the square is outlined it's blocking terrain. It /is simple: if the square is outlined in heavy black, it's blocking. Otherwise, it's hindering.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by Heroix
But isn't it a little silly to say that Spider-Man couldn't stop halfway up a building? Or even Batman or Daredevil or the Black Cat, etc., for that matter? Of course they can stop halfway up; they do it all the time. Thus a set of "advanced rules" for multiple elevations should allow for that.
First of all, thanks for all the great comments. You've given me plenty to think about, and I'll respond in depth at another time.

Your idea of a full 3D environment (I've bookmarked your site and will plumb its depths as well) are interesting, if a little cumbersome/impractical at first glance. My intention was to create a set of rules that were simple enough to be integrated into the current rules framework without much difficulty. Part of that is a deliberate effort to avoid the need of special markers or involved LoF rules, for example. If figures are allowed to stop halfway up a building, you then need a set of rules to specifically deal with LoF issues of wallcrawlers. Can someone who is grappling their way up a building fight with the same efficiency as one who is unencumbered/stable? Can two figures occupy the same square at different elevations (one on the ground, one adhered to the wall a storey or two up)? Does someone on the ground have a clear LoF to a figure two squares over and three stories up if there is someone one storey up two squares away? Many players have difficulty determining 2D LoF - imagine the arguments and frustration over 3D LoF.

You've made a number of good points that I will be considering before incorporating this into my final version of the rules. As for giving it an offical-sounding name, I'm sure I'll hear about it from WK if they have a problem. I don't think anyone will confuse us, though.

[Doc Savage]

I haven't read Heroix's rules yet, but I agree with his basic assertion - If you're gonna go 3d, then you've got to go with the terrain as designed in the miniature. The rules need to work no matter what the size of the terrain is.

Saying that climbing to the top of a 2 story building cost 2 squares isn't gonna make sense. Why should Spidey climb walls faster than he can move across open ground? One square is one square in 3d space.

Line of sight issues are easier in a 3d world as well. You just look. If the LOS isn't blocked, take the shot.

[Heroix]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
Does someone on the ground have a clear LoF to a figure two squares over and three stories up if there is someone one storey up two squares away? Many players have difficulty determining 2D LoF - imagine the arguments and frustration over 3D LoF.

It's almost easier if your environment is fully 3D. Just take a long, small diameter dowel and see if you can use it to connect one figure to another without moving any terrain. If you can, you've got LOF. Never mind about thick lines and such. You could even mark off 1.5" ticks on the dowel and use that for range determination instead of squares if you wanted to, as a way of compensating for the range gain of firing through the diagonals of squares/cubes.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Heroix


Well, I do still have visions in my head of the campy TV Batman & Robin climbing up the sides of buildings using their bat-ropes, stopping to speak along the way to kind concerned citizens who stick their heads out of the windows ... :p

All right, that's amusing...

You know what I've been considering? Since I'm making the buildings out of styrofoam and foamcore, I've been considering whether or not to use a Heroclix base and push a notch into the building sides every 1.5"...that way, Spidey doesn't have to get to the roof...he can hang out on the side of the building--literally.

I'll check it first to see how it looks and if it works. Neat idea, though, innit?

[Heroix]

Originally posted by MarkFinn
You know what I've been considering? Since I'm making the buildings out of styrofoam and foamcore, I've been considering whether or not to use a Heroclix base and push a notch into the building sides every 1.5"...that way, Spidey doesn't have to get to the roof...he can hang out on the side of the building--literally.

I'll check it first to see how it looks and if it works. Neat idea, though, innit?

Yes, it is! I would love to see the results. The big question in my mind is how far you'd have to push in the notch to actually suspend the figure without it falling out, and how badly it mars the "look and feel" of the buildings to do that every 1.5" both horizontally and vertically.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by Heroix
It's almost easier if your environment is fully 3D. Just take a long, small diameter dowel and see if you can use it to connect one figure to another without moving any terrain. If you can, you've got LOF.
Well, not quite. Because figures in between can block LoF, and according to the rules they occupy the full square (which would transfer to the full cube in 3D). That means you'd have to be able to measure from the exact centre of one cube to the centre of another cube without intersecting any part of an intervening cube containing a figure (or terrain feature for hindering bonuses/stealth). I wouldn't see it be much of a problem in a friendly match, where eyeballing it is good enough, but in a tournament there's going to be some fierce competitor who's going to demand a precise measurement.

You could even mark off 1.5" ticks on the dowel and use that for range determination instead of squares if you wanted to, as a way of compensating for the range gain of firing through the diagonals of squares/cubes.

It appears to be a difference in taste here. You're changing many of the fundamentals of the game here for your 3D environment, while I'm looking to maintain the feel and design of the current rules. There's nothing inherently wrong with either philosophy, mind you, just perspective. You're essentially looking to turn the game into a full miniatures battle game (I used to play Napoleonics miniatures, and even built a sandbox battlefield for WWII desert tank battles).

In your design, the 1.5" distance works. For me, I'll stick to x+y+z as range. I'd expect your system would appeal to veteran gamers (myself included, if I had the time and space), while mine is intended more for the casual or new gamer. Thanks for the great ideas, though.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by MarkFinn
You know what I've been considering? Since I'm making the buildings out of styrofoam and foamcore, I've been considering whether or not to use a Heroclix base and push a notch into the building sides every 1.5"...that way, Spidey doesn't have to get to the roof...he can hang out on the side of the building--literally.

Instead of cutting base-sized chunks out of your walls, why not create little ledges that can be inserted into the styrofoam?

Attach two thin dowels (1-2mm diameter) to the underside of a 1" square piece of balsa, sticking out 3/4ths of an inch on one side. When the wall crawler wants to crawl walls, insert the shelf into the side of your building 1" up (or whatever). That way, you're not marring the side of your building too much, and figures like Hulk who occupy most of their base could still be used. How does that sound?

[MarkFinn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheSpirit


Instead of cutting base-sized chunks out of your walls, why not create little ledges that can be inserted into the styrofoam?

Attach two thin dowels (1-2mm diameter) to the underside of a 1" square piece of balsa, sticking out 3/4ths of an inch on one side. When the wall crawler wants to crawl walls, insert the shelf into the side of your building 1" up (or whatever). That way, you're not marring the side of your building too much, and figures like Hulk who occupy most of their base could still be used. How does that sound? [/QUOTE

Huh. Pegs! Not bad. It might not be the Clinging Figure look I was going for, but it might also be less trouble for what I want to do...

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Heroix


Yes, it is! I would love to see the results. The big question in my mind is how far you'd have to push in the notch to actually suspend the figure without it falling out, and how badly it mars the "look and feel" of the buildings to do that every 1.5" both horizontally and vertically.

Well, my building material will all be covered with Spackle and painted out the wazoo with tempera paint (which could be slathered into the notches to help disguise them). The only drawback to it would be that I have to do it for the entire building in order to be really useful to Spidey... Hmm....

I think in essence what all three of us want to do is expand the dimensions of movement and combat in the game. I've seen your site and I love it (as we've talked about before), and I also like your optional rules for falling and cars (which work great with my construction set).

Considering how simple the Basic Clix rules are, I'm not surprised that there's more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to modifying the existing rules.

I think the solution for me at this time is to modify them on a map by map and scenario by scenario basis. There's nothing tricky about the movement I've proposed for an all rooftops game, outside of it forcing a different way of strategy and thinking. As of this time, house rules are a novelty. They allow for things like Fastball Specials and the like. I suspect that when they do a Heroclix Update, it'll do little more than clarify the rules with the FAQ.

Spirit, it's my personal opinion that you may need to revise your elevation ideas to be either more flexible and arbitrary or go in a different direction. As you've stated them, I'm not sure they will work in every instance. But hey, what do I know? I'm not at your house, eating your Cheetos, and staring at your map. Please keep posting your ideas. I think it's good for everyone to check out these kinds of concepts and mod the game to their own specifications.

Good luck to you!

[Heroix]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
You're changing many of the fundamentals of the game here for your 3D environment, while I'm looking to maintain the feel and design of the current rules.

I agree with you that there's nothing inherently wrong with either philosophy, but I don't think my 3D rules suggestions change the fundamentals of the game. All my suggestions do is extrude the map upward on the same scale as the horizontal grid, and think in terms of cubes instead of squares. Yes, the hovering/soaring distinction goes away, but even in your system aren't you going to need to ultimately determine what the difference is between "hovering over nth level elevation" and "soaring"? The most complicated part of my suggestions is falling, but already your suggestions incorporate info on how to handle falling directly from "second level elevation" to the ground. What about when you want to incorporate "third level elevation," "fourth level elevation," etc.? This is why I favor a cube-based approach rather than a "layers of elevation" based approach. There's nothing "wrong" with a layer-based approach, but at the same time it's not just a matter of taste. I truly believe a cube-based approach is ultimately simpler, because it allows for any variety of elevations. A layer-based approach ultimately locks in a finite number of elevations (one in the current HC rules, two in your suggestions, etc.).

For me, I'll stick to x+y+z as range.

I must have missed something earlier, because I don't remember this equation in what you first posted about "second level elevation." In order for a formula like x+y+z to be workable, you have to define where those values come from. But in HeroClix as it stands now, there is no "triangulation." In other words, on the 2D maps, you don't calculate range as x+y. There's just x:

Figure 1

A1 B1 C1
A2 B2 C2
A3 B3 C3

A figure in A3 doesn't calculate range to a character in C1 as a mathematical equation of x + y where x = 2 (columns B and C) and y = 2 (rows 1 and 2), for a range of 4. Rather, a figure in A3 calculates the range to a figure in C1 by counting squares (B2 and C1) for a total of 2.

Similarly, in a 3D environment, why not just count cubes instead of messing with mathematical formulae?

Figure 2

G1 H1 I1
G2 H2 I2
G3 H3 I3
D1 E1 F1
D2 E2 F2
D3 E3 F3
A1 B1 C1
A2 B2 C2
A3 B3 C3

Imagine that the three grids shown in Figure 2 are stacked squares, making a cube, and that each unit in the overall setup is also a cube. So again, a figure in A3 needs a range of 2 to fire on a character in C1 (counting B2 and C1 as the path of the shot). If you just count cubes, it's simple enough: a character in A3 with a range of 2 could hit a character in I1, counting the path as E2 then I1 (2 cubes).

I don't think I made this "counting cubes" stuff explicit in my own 3D rules suggestions (I'll go back and fix that), but that's what I had in mind.

The only disadvantage I see to it is that you can stretch a shot considerably by firing on the diagonal through a cube. A character firing from A3 to C3 uses 2 range to fire 3". A character firing from A3 to C1 uses 2 range to fire 4.24", and a character firing from A3 to I1 actually uses 2 range to fire 6". The Pythagorean theorem and all that. That's the only reason I mentioned the 1.5" dowel ticks - because I know some people grouse about the advantage gained by using the diagonal. I figure it works for all players equally, so no big deal.