Villains Vs. Heroes

[Sinister SID]

I'm wondering which side would win this epic battle (heroes vs. villains -- assuming you took the most effective version of each character and threw in every unique) in the opinion of those who have played almost every Marvel click available -- I only collect and play villains and although there are some very powerful bad-guys kicking around I have a sneaking suspicion that the heroes would wipe the floor with them. Any thoughts?


P.S. You want me to field Black Manta!?! I'm going home.

[Veggiehater]

Too many variables to take into consideration for this one, but I would give a slight edge to the Villain squad simply because of the large amount of Multi-arrow energy explosion that they could utilize. Oh and the fact that they have a 300 point Sentinel + Sinestro (if you include DC) doesn't hurt their cause one bit...

But really depending on how many actions you allow a team to take, whoever goes first has a huge advantage.

Just my opinion,
VH

[Xian]

Originally posted by Veggiehater
But really depending on how many actions you allow a team to take, whoever goes first has a huge advantage.

Whoa whoa whoa...take that to the Battle Plans forum. :P

Definitely too many variables to take in. And if you include all the heros and villains, you're talking, like, what, a 2000+ point game? Madness.

For a more realistic heros vs. villains match, check out the Archenemies Showdown PBF game (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25427) that's finishing up right now. (And man, are the villains cleaning up.)


Xian

[The Stinger]

My friend and I played a 20 figure team each, no point restrictions just out of my collection with 5 actions per turn.

I was good, he was evil, and I smoked his team hardcore.

MVPs for good team
U Spiderman IC
V Thor
V Hulk
V Cyclops
V Hawkeye
V Prof X

Oh yeah, and 3 count em, 3 critical misses on the part of the evil Firelord!! Had he connected on just one of them, the battle would have been much different.

Longest Lasting for the Evil Side

V Ultron
V Blastaar
V Doom
V Juggernaut
V Sabretooth
U nightmare.

Thor was weakening opponents flying around and slinging the hammer for 4 damage, while the Hulk got in and obliterated nearly anyone he based when he got to his first clix of 4 damage. Key Mind controlls by professor X gave his good figures action tokens, while wounding his own team.
Cyclops and Hawkeye were lighting people up from long range, and Spiderman was either incapacitating a figure, dealing 2 damage, or using his defend to bring a group of fig's defense to 18.

Thor and the Hulk basically did most of the destruction, and Hulk only got down to regen one time, and got the full 4 clix of regeneration, while Thor seemed charmed in that battle, and never even took a hit. (2 of the 3 critical misses by Firelord were aimed at Thor...)

All in all it was an awesome fight that spanned 2 outdoor maps and took about 2 1/2 hours. YOu guys owe it to yourself to try a game like this just once.

[Thor665]

But...but...Firelord is a good guy.

I'm telling mom,
Thor.

[Badges2]

Originally posted by Thor665
But...but...Firelord is a good guy.

I'm telling mom,
Thor.

Okay. Let's get this strait. Firelord was Galactus's herald, right? His job was to find worlds full of life for the big guy to come eat. Please explain how that's a good thing, because I just don't see it.

Firelord - "Look at this beautiful world. It's so full of life and beauty. What a wonderful planet that I've found. I'm sure that anyone would love to spend all of their days living in this peaceful, magnificent place."

Galactus - "Sounds yummy."

Firelord - "Dinner Time, Galactus. I hope that you enjoy eating this planet full of people. I don't mind the fact that you're killing off all kinds of races and species. Genocide is a wonderful thing. Eat Up, Big Guy!"

[SniperCyclops]

Originally posted by Thor665
But...but...Firelord is a good guy.

I'm telling mom,
Thor.
well, it goes like this...
rookie- villian
experienced- kinda goes to either side
veteran- hero

[Random]

Silver Surfer was a Herald of Galactus, does that make HIM a villan?

[shadowchaser]

Technically the surfer that heralded for galactus is a villain. At his heart however, norrin radd is a hero.

[Random]

LOL at his heart! That's rich. At my heart, I'm a millionaire. What you do in life defines you, not your intentions. So either he was a villan or not.

[EVIL CAP]

Galactus is a cosmic being and is above the consideration that what he does is anymore evil that a human crushing a fly thats buzzing around their head.I think its also generally hinted that if Galactus dies its VERY bad for the universe and woulde more destructive than him merely cosuming one of countless planets

[The Sandman]

And in defense of Firelord, his captain was "abducted" by Galactus and made into a herald (Air Walker). Firelord tracked Galactus and demanded (gutsy, not smart, but gutsy) he tell him what happened to his Cap. In exchange for the info he had to become the next herald. Granted, being his herald would make him evil in most eyes, but just like Surfer, he was eventually freed and become a protector of people.

[Sinister SID]

OK -- Marvel only (I put the same question in the DC thread for the DC figs).

No Sentinels since the bad-guys have Brotherhood and they can't be together (you could argue against this -- but let it go)

I would call Firelord a good guy because there are no point restrictions per se (just the best version of each character -- almost all will therefore be Vet -- and Vet Firelord is good -- White Queen would arguably be Experienced -- and therefore evil.)

I'm not suggesting someone should try having the battle -- but based upon what would be there on both sides -- who would probably win based on the stats and numbers (completely hypothetical).

I still like the heroes' chances -- and the new set could easier make the gap even larger. How many super-strength bruisers do the villains really have? A lot of the weak villains have terrible attack ratings-- or what about the prevalence of Blade/Claws for the heroes? (Logan + Wolverine + Unique Wol. + Blade + Wolfsbane + Elektra, etc.)

[EVIL CAP]

I think Exp White Queen represents her days leading Generation X alongside Banshee then her Vet is the present X-Men version and her RK was back when she was in the hellfire club

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Galactus is a cosmic being and is above the consideration that what he does is anymore evil that a human crushing a fly thats buzzing around their head. What a load of rubbish. Galactus is just another alien who got superpowers. What exactly is it about him that puts him above good and evil? His dress sense?

This is just a stupid cop-out Marvel came up with when it became obvious that Galactus is a genocidal monster who should be hunted down and killed by anyone worthy of the name "hero".



Originally posted by EVIL CAP
I think its also generally hinted that if Galactus dies its VERY bad for the universe and woulde more destructive than him merely cosuming one of countless planets And isn't that convenient? The fact is, Galactus represents money to Marvel, and that's the only reason he can't be killed. Shame they don't realise he's past his sell-by date. I bet it's thirty years since a Galactus appearance added sales to a title.

And yes, incidentally, the Surfer is a villain. He collaborated with the monster, and murdered billions. On top of that, he's a whiner and a eunuch too.

[Pip the Troll]

hmm i will have ot disagree with with Phil
on surfer being a villan
He became a herald of Galactus to save his homeworld, and the billions of people on it, while he was a herald of Galactus he went and found mostly uninhabited planets for Galactus to consume, and im pretty sure earth was one of the first if not only habited planets that galactus tried to consume while surfer was his herald
and thats when surfer rebelled and stood up against Galactus
then after that im sure noone can doubt that he was a hero and also if you read him he has this crazy respect for Life, and im sure alot of that respect came form his time iwth Galactus and seeing galactus destroy so much living things when he ate planets(not people but plants and maybe animals) so yes it was still wrong for him to help Galactus destroy those planets but he did it to save a planet whoihc is noble as well,

I think that surfer si most definatly a hero, but then its only an opinion
cheers

[EVIL CAP]

Thats a very limited scope of Galactus.He wasent just an alein he is basically a demi-god that predates the universe and most creatures dont even register to him.Its like any human smashing a bug because its inconvient or annoying to them except with Galactus he has to kill something to survive

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Thats a very limited scope of Galactus.He wasent just an alein he is basically a demi-god that predates the universe and most creatures dont even register to him.Its like any human smashing a bug because its inconvient or annoying to them except with Galactus he has to kill something to survive He's not any kind of demi-god. He is simply a member of an alien (but basically human) species who acquired superpowers. One of these was immortality, and another was heightened technological ability. But there are dozens of immortal supervillains with high technology. Are they "beyond good and evil" too?

The fact that Galactus doesn't consider the people he eats to be important is precisely what makes him evil. Selfishness, and lack of empathy, are the roots of all evil.

[USAgent]

Villians, heros, blah blah blah, you are all forgetting THE villian, the one and only Thanos. No Villian i have ever read has done what they have done because of him, , I'm not taking anything away from some other villians, i am a huge Joker and Apocolypse fan, but in my humble opinion Thanos is it. How many villians do you know that wanted to kill it all, destroy everything for the one unstoppable, insane, constant in the universe......love. Thats right the big purple guy did it all for love, he fell in love with death, not the idea of it, no he fell in love with the being death. Granted Onslaught was the scriest SOB i ever saw in marvel but he pailed in comparison to Thanos, if ya havent read it read the Infinity series it's an eye opener.

[EVIL CAP]

Originally posted by Phil Dixon
He's not any kind of demi-god. He is simply a member of an alien (but basically human) species who acquired superpowers. One of these was immortality, and another was heightened technological ability. But there are dozens of immortal supervillains with high technology. Are they "beyond good and evil" too?

The fact that Galactus doesn't consider the people he eats to be important is precisely what makes him evil. Selfishness, and lack of empathy, are the roots of all evil.

No he wasent he was the only surving being from the previous universe that existed before the big bang and was there at the start of the new universe.He was basically then infused with cosmic energy and is a kind of sibling to the concept beings of Death and Eternity and Infinity.Thats why he doesnt consider any of the people he ends up destroying he is so far above them.Its no different to him than poisioning an ant colony.Think about it when have you ever felt remorse for squashing a roach or a fly?

[Doctor Strange]

Galactus' "job" is to keep the Celestials in check.

The Celestials use earth-like worlds as incubators for baby Celestials. In effect, they use an entire world as an egg.
If Galactus didn't roam around consuming worlds, the Celestials would overrun the unverse. It's his destiny and indirectly, he protects existance.

Chaulk this bizzare cosmic food chain up to Marvels Mad mythology, but it gives Galactus a little more depth beyond simple bad guy/good guy generalizations.

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
No he wasent he was the only surving being from the previous universe that existed before the big bang and was there at the start of the new universe.He was basically then infused with cosmic energy and is a kind of sibling to the concept beings of Death and Eternity and Infinity. I know all this. Like I said: he's a space alien (from the Universe before ours, big deal), who got powers. All that "cosmic energy" rubbish is just his origin story.

And anyone who thinks Galactus is in any way similar to Death and Eternity and Infinity needs their head examining. Don't bother to tell me that's Marvel's story; I know that too, and it's stupid. I blame John Byrne for most of this trash.

The other three are universal abstract concepts: he's a space monster who eats planets. He's just a bigger version of Godzilla.


Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Thats why he doesnt consider any of the people he ends up destroying he is so far above them.Its no different to him than poisioning an ant colony.Think about it when have you ever felt remorse for squashing a roach or a fly? I have thought about it. You should too, instead of parroting the Marvel line, because it makes no sense. How does any of what you've just said make Galactus "so far above" humanity that he's justified in murdering us? He wears a stupid hat and shiny hot pants, and that means he's justified in treating us as if we were cockroaches?

He's no more intelligent than we are - Richards, Doom and others outwit (not Outwit) him all the time. He's just bigger and stronger. Might makes Right is no basis for a moral system.

Oh, and he's older. I bet I'm older than you are. Can I eat you?

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by Doctor Strange
Galactus' "job" is to keep the Celestials in check. I enjoyed the Earth: X stuff, but don't forget, it's set in an alternate future, and the mainstream Marvel Universe isn't bound by it, any more than by the events in, say, Doom: 2099.

[Doctor Strange]

Originally posted by Phil Dixon
I enjoyed the Earth: X stuff, but don't forget, it's set in an alternate future, and the mainstream Marvel Universe isn't bound by it, any more than by the events in, say, Doom: 2099.

True, the specific storyline happens in Earth X, but this notion is alluded to in the mainstream books as well. It's just presented more subtly. Earth X had pretty off the wall characters in it, but the basis of the storyline is the mainstream continuity.

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by Doctor Strange
True, the specific storyline happens in Earth X, but this notion is alluded to in the mainstream books as well. It's just presented more subtly. Earth X had pretty off the wall characters in it, but the basis of the storyline is the mainstream continuity. To take one example, you'll find it very diifficult to convince Thor fans that he's not a God but a shape-changing space alien, as Earth X has it.

To take another, Earth X's vision of the afterlife contradicts many "in-continuity" alternative versions.

[EVIL CAP]

So lemme get this straight somehow some guy sitting on his computer in England has more athourity of Galctuses Nature than the people at Marvel Comics?Hes a cosmic being and Marvel has already established that long ago yet somehow hes just an alien all of a sudden because you want it that way?It makes a nice way to side-step my question abloout feeling gulity for squashing an insect but frankly im not so easily distracted.The point is you wouldnt feel bad fr sqashing a bug or eatting a hamburger and niether would Galactus.In the cases of him being outsmarted by Reed Doom etc well frankly if a random ant suddenly launched a tac-nuke out of his anthill at you id imagine it would be a bit surprising.Earth really doesnt quite fit a lot of universel norms and tends to packed with some pretty exceptional people.I mean it is DOOM after all

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
So lemme get this straight somehow some guy sitting on his computer in England has more athourity of Galctuses Nature than the people at Marvel Comics? Everything I'm saying was contained in Galactus's origin, as presented in Thor 162 and 168-9, and summarised here: http://users.ev1.net/~peanut/bio-galactus.html. And I live in Scotland.

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Hes a cosmic being Yeah, so you keep saying, as if the term actually meant anything. "Cosmic being" is a label Stan Lee came up with because "space guy" didn't sound too impressive. It just means a person with powers who lives in space. It doesn't have anything to do with being "above good and evil". In fact there are good cosmic beings, like Captain Marvel and Warlock, and evil cosmic beings such as Terrax and Thanos, so your argument is plainly nonsense.

I might accept that the great abstract beings, such as Eternity and Death, are beyond good and evil, but Galactus is not one of these. He has more in common with Thanos. Both, after all are merely space aliens with super-powers.


Originally posted by EVIL CAP
... and Marvel has already established that long ago yet somehow hes just an alien all of a sudden because you want it that way? No, because that's the way it is. His name was Galan. He was born on the planet Taa, and he was a spaceman. Just flesh and blood.


Originally posted by EVIL CAP
It makes a nice way to side-step my question abloout feeling gulity for squashing an insect but frankly im not so easily distracted.The point is you wouldnt feel bad fr sqashing a bug or eatting a hamburger and niether would Galactus. If I was sidestepping your question, it was because I didn't want to make you look stupid. The people Galactus eats aren't insects or cattle, and Galactus has no right to treat them as if they were. If he thinks they're inferior beings, that just makes him a Nazi as well as a genocide.

And now I've answered your question, you can stop ducking mine: how does any of what you've said make Galactus "so far above" humanity that he's justified in murdering us?


Originally posted by EVIL CAP
In the cases of him being outsmarted by Reed Doom etc well frankly if a random ant suddenly launched a tac-nuke out of his anthill at you id imagine it would be a bit surprising.Earth really doesnt quite fit a lot of universel norms and tends to packed with some pretty exceptional people.I mean it is DOOM after all You're arguing against yourself here, even if you don't realise it. If an ant were capable of developing nuclear weaponry it would obviously be an intelligent creature, and killing it would be murder. If a cow showed signs of intelligence, I'd be opposed to slaughtering it, as I am opposed to the slaughter of real-life advanced creatures, such as cetaceans and great apes.

[EVIL CAP]

Dude i was gonna be pretty happy arguing about this im a comic fan i enjoy this kind of thing but then you compared Galactus to the nazis.No matter how much of a comic fan i am Galactus is still fictional and nazis killed millions in real life.Seriosuly dude re-evaluate things

[jay_of_titan]

Galactus is not a cosmic being or space guy, nor is he a space NAZI. He is an elemental force whose purpose is to maintain balance between Eternity/Infinity & Death. His true form, not his dumb hat, is that of energy (Silver Surfer 9 or 10) not flessh and blood. His existence predates the universe and you can't just throw out all of Marvel's background gibberish because he is a fictional character created by them. They get to say who he is, his origin, his purpose and what he does in comics. Besides, he is dead & it hearld an a being (Abaraxus?) that went about destroying all realites (FF vol. 47-49). He was only stopped by finding the Ultimate Nulifier...



(must go-girlfriend is here)

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Dude i was gonna be pretty happy arguing about this im a comic fan i enjoy this kind of thing but then you compared Galactus to the nazis.No matter how much of a comic fan i am Galactus is still fictional and nazis killed millions in real life.Seriosuly dude re-evaluate things Don't talk soft. Nazis appear in comics all the time, from Captain America to Hellboy to Danger Girl. Is that supposed to be inappropriate too?

Anybody who kills people because he feels they're his inferiors is a Nazi, hence Galactus.

[EVIL CAP]

1 You cant reconstruct a character away from marvels own ideas just because you find him distasteful

2 Humans arent anything special as a whole and Galactus doesnt see them on his level.Galatus controls cosmic energy and can shape it and reality at his will.Humans make tinker toys live and die natuarally before he would even notice of course he doesnt care.Just saying they arent cattle isnt enough because there isnt any difference in them to him

3 Even when he was Galen the space guy he was still far more advanced than hun,manity.He survives the end of the universe and gets changed into a cosmic being.No matter how much you call him space guy thats what happened.he is no longer anywhere near a flesh and blood being

4 Once again you compared him nazis.The words gets thrown around at every mildly irritating thing imaginable and lose meaning like that[Bush is a nazi the pope is a nazi etc]

Basically i find you to be outright the STUPIDEST person i have ever talked to in my life.You simply did the online equivelent to covering you ears and screaming "La la la la" at every point anyone made like a 4 year old.The fact that you actually seem to belive you made any points is insulting enough but then using the nazi comparison obviously hoping the shock value would somehow make your argument seem intelligant just sent it over the edge.Leave it at this now im not going to argue anymore because i know what you hope for is to drag this into the level of s stupid argument and beat me with experience where it becomes just "Hes a cosmic being/No hes not/yes he is/no hes not/yes he is/Nah uh/uh huh etc".Im not going to allow that however as i am leaving this topic since i cant stomach it anymore and can see where it is going.I am going to go outside now buy some comic books and not get into argumants with people that say Thor is really a janitor or that or that Galactus is a human in a space ship with that slaughters people out of racism

[squidblatt]

There is a difference between getting infused with superpowers and experiencing an apotheosis. Silver Surfer has superpowers and lives in space, but is not a cosmic entity. At least I wouldn't classify him that way. SS is still Norrin Radd (can't remember the spelling) at heart. However he has changed, he is still able to relate to his past; there is a continuity between the one identity and the other. However, with Galactus there appears to have been a complete elimination of and break with his old identity. I seriously doubt that Galactus can relate at all to what he once was. In fact, the break is so complete that I don't think it's appropriate to say Galactus was ever anything but Galactus. As for morality, I think we can say that he is above our considerations, or at least beholden to others than our own. His perceptions are supposed to be beyond our understanding, so the question is raised whether or not we are even fit judges of him. You are, of course, free to come up with your own answer to that question. However, I don't think holding Marvel responsible for a characterization you don't find attractive is all that useful. The fact is, Galactus is not human or a human-like alien. He is truly alien and expecting him to relate to our ideas of morality is illogical. Whatever your opinion, he's just comic character.

[supergoblin]

This is stupid argument. please drop it.

[squidblatt]

Yeah, you're right.

*Drop*

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP
Basically i find you to be outright the STUPIDEST person i have ever talked to in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why you keep ducking my question, right #####?

[supergoblin]

ahhh the afaul b word!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phil Dixon]

Originally posted by supergoblin
ahhh the afaul b word!!!!!!!!!!!! P, actually. I never guessed that'd be blocked. But then, I still can't believe ########!

[Thunderbolts]

Galactus died, by the way. His skull landed in New York in the #40s of Fantastic 4 vol. 3.

I never followed up the story to see why or how it was resolved, but it was probably a Skrull in disguise or something.