White Queen (done to death)

[Mr Deadpool]

Okay what's the deal...

(E) White Queen - ROCKS!
(V) White Queen - SUCKS!

What's the deal with that?

I've noticed that a lot of the (e) versions of clix are better than their (v) versions... I'm not sure why WK is doing this but they are. I'm sure a lot of you will say that the (v) are better. But the one big thing that I can say is (e) Batman blows (v) Batman out of the water.

So back to my query, why does (v) WQ suck? I mean her attack rating is low and she has Invulnerbility/Toughness and Leadership for almost 100pts... What happened to her Mind Control, Super Senses, or other power she had... What made her get so tough? I know she's supposed to represent her time w/the X-Men, but be real, she suddenly forgot everything else.

what a suck she is.... (never gonna use her)
Cat

[Heretic]

As I understand, and mind you I don't read the as the x turns books, she mutated so she has diamond hard skin. The R/E/V versions represent different times in the characters history. Usually the character gets more powerfull as they come into their powers. In some cases, however, it doesn't work that way. V Panther is another example of a V not being as good as the R and E. E batman is better primarily because of the switch to JLA from Batman ally, Lack of stealth hurts the bat but it is acurate as Batman did join the JLA later in his career (post crisis he wasn't a founding member).

[Mr Deadpool]

Ah, that would explain her power then... she still sucks though.

And yeah (v) Batman is good but definately the (e) is the best and (e) Black Panther is the best out of the three.. I mean B/C/F, Stealth, Outwit ... dang! what more could you ask for.

that's cool thanks for the insight. (as I am not an X-Reader that much either) - DEADPOOL IS THE MAN! or AGENT X :D

Cat

[Thorgrin]

I beg to differ. I think the Black Panther vet is very useful. Leap/Climb is very, very nice when you get hit off the outwit clicks and you need to run back to the medic. That and he can move himself up on top of hindering terrain without a medic is nice and he gets a ranged attack option as well, though it's only a range of 4. Not saying that stealth isn't nice as well, but the vet has a different trick up his sleeve.

I'd have to agree with vet White Queen, though. yuck! Same goes for the LE Wolverine. For the same "charge" ability, I could have a vet Sabretooth which costs a little less and can do natural damage of 3.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
I'd have to agree with vet White Queen, though. yuck! Same goes for the LE Wolverine. For the same "charge" ability, I could have a vet Sabretooth which costs a little less and can do natural damage of 3.

Yep. But the LE Wolverine keeps B/F/C his entire dial and gains stealth. And has the 'valuable' X-men team ability.

And couple other points: The LE Wolverine actually falls between the rookie & exp timeline-wise, so he isn't supposed to be the 'be-all & end-all' of Wolverines. And there are people out there who don't select their figures solely on the basis of "who is the best figure with this power." They may play heroes-only or villians-only teams. They may just like a certain figure or costume. They may play theme teams.

Personally, my LE Wolverine will probably be seeing a good amount of play come Xplosion - because I'll be able to play the '80s X-men.

Originally posted by Heretic
As I understand, and mind you I don't read the as the x turns books, she mutated so she has diamond hard skin.

To clarify a bit - there is a (IMHO silly) string of events in the X-books where mutants are developing 'secondary mutations.' Emma's secondary mutation was that she can change her skin to diamond, much like Colossus turning to organic steel. While she is 'diamonded up' she cannot use her psychic abilities (and I believe she is immune to others mental abilities as well).

However, and this is where I have my biggest problem with the way the fig is statted, she has not lost her psychic powers. So she should still have her MC, PB & SS on her first 'Banner click.'

[Heretic]

I think the Black Cat vet is very useful

You meant Black Panther I assume. I agree that he isn't useless but I use BP primarily as an outwitter and there is nothing better than an outwitter in stealth so the attacker has to come and risk the BCF attack to knock him off his outwit. This of course is nulified by Nightcrawler and his nasty Hyperspeed but it is still cheap and effective in the long run.

[Thorgrin]

For the same points, I'd go with the vet wolverine (for only 5 more points), still retain the "valuable" x-men team ability, get a better attack rating, still get b/c/f down the dial and have more clicks of life.

As far as charge, it's nice and all, but you're still relying on a taxi to get him into range. Otherwise, he's just kind of sitting there hoping someone will get in range so that he can use the power.

Granted, you can do a theme deck, etc, but realistic, for overall play, he's not all that good. That and you had to spend $5 for a single figure whereas an even cheaper unique wolverine (yes, he does lose the x-men team ability) has a +3 to attack and is overall much, much better than old LE. Heck, even Vet Logan is much better than the LE. Sorry, but I'd either stick with the original wolverine or the alternatives. Everytime I've seen the Beserker Wolverine out, he just gets owned up and kicked to the curb.

Originally posted by Grinner
Yep. But the LE Wolverine keeps B/F/C his entire dial and gains stealth. And has the 'valuable' X-men team ability.

And couple other points: The LE Wolverine actually falls between the rookie & exp timeline-wise, so he isn't supposed to be the 'be-all & end-all' of Wolverines. And there are people out there who don't select their figures solely on the basis of "who is the best figure with this power." They may play heroes-only or villians-only teams. They may just like a certain figure or costume. They may play theme teams.

Personally, my LE Wolverine will probably be seeing a good amount of play come Xplosion - because I'll be able to play the '80s X-men.

[Nevest]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
I beg to differ. I think the Black Cat vet is very useful. Leap/Climb is very, very nice when you get hit off the outwit clicks and you need to run back to the medic. That and he can move himself up on top of hindering terrain without a medic is nice and he gets a ranged attack option as well, though it's only a range of 4. Not saying that stealth isn't nice as well, but the vet has a different trick up his sleeve.

Ummm, Black Cat is a girl ... and a pretty darn good looking girl too. Best get your eyes checked there.

I too have noticed the trend of experienced figures being better than their vet version. Superman, Batman, Black Cat, Thor, White Queen, Black Panther ... the list isn't really that big though and generally vets are better than the exp version, but hey, variety is the spice of life.

[Thorgrin]

doh! Meant Black Panther

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
Granted, you can do a theme deck, etc, but realistic, for overall play, he's not all that good. That and you had to spend $5 for a single figure whereas an even cheaper unique wolverine (yes, he does lose the x-men team ability) has a +3 to attack and is overall much, much better than old LE. Heck, even Vet Logan is much better than the LE. Sorry, but I'd either stick with the original wolverine or the alternatives. Everytime I've seen the Beserker Wolverine out, he just gets owned up and kicked to the curb.

I'm not arguing that point for point he's the best figure out there, not by a long shot. Just saying if you want charging b/f/c there are reasons to take him over Sabretooth.

And as for the 'you had to spend $5 for a single figure,' unless you pulled a unique Wolverine you would have to spend double to triple that 'for a single figure.'

Personally, while I have had only one or two games where he was alive at the end, I tend to take out more points than he cost before I lose him. Although I do dread the 'dead zone' where he doesn't have toughness or regeneration :p

[Mr Deadpool]

WOW! So many replies SWEET!!!!

Anyhow, I like the (V) Black Cat over the (E) because of that 4th click where she gets Stealth and still has Probability Control. But if the points are tight then the (E) is the way to go.

As for the Black Panther, he's a beast at (E) version the (V) version is usefull...but meh! 8 times out of 10 you'll see the (E) version.

As for Wolverine... I like the LE version of him to. Even with the Charge and whatnot. I like the B/C/F all the way and the fact that he's an X member can be useful, it really just comes down to when you think you'll be wanting your abilities... that'll choose which Wolverine you want.

Just some more debating, good stuff good stuff.

Cat

[Thorgrin]

lol, I was lucky. I got unique wolverine on my first booster pull. :) Granted, he was only 5 bucks at the time, but someone a long time ago (when this debate was going on about him vs. say an exp wolverine) had the article in which it was clearly stated he had a lot of powers at the same time. I think stealth and charge, that I could see as being a very good figure.

Ah well. Give me a Vet Constrictor any day. lol

[Styrix]

Black Cat E finds her way into more of my armies than any other support fig, simply becauseit's hard to pass on that Spidey thang! Free move, AIM, SHIELD, and in mixed, super-batman-stealth! Nothin sweeter! The Vet's nice and all, but come on, where's the WildCard fun?


By the by, for reference of Wolvies and Sabretooth comparison, see:
http://www.hcrealms.com/cgi-bin/quickviewteam.cgi?teamname=WolverineSabreToothbyclicks&username=Styrix&action=graphic

[Mr Deadpool]

Styrix - yeah I can relate I see (E) Black Cat making it into most of my armies as well... but I do try to get that extra 4 points for the (V) Black Cat if I can.

Thorgrin - Hey, what's wrong with (V) Constrictor...heh!... okay that felt good.... That's cool. My first pack of IC:HC was Unique Vision, my first pack of HT:DC - Unique Flash (which is funny story below) and my first pack of CT:HC was Unique Mr. Fixit.

So on the par I have good luck with the first packs. :D since then I've pulled like 5 Nightcrawlers (none left) and I still need my second Spiral. Ah well.

*funny story* exerpt: I was at the comic store w/my buddy who works there and he told me that he wanted me to buy some hero clix (this is when DC) came out and I told him that I bought a case and I was waiting for it. Yeah, he said, but I want to show the people here how EVIL you are when you pick and want something, as limited as that sounds. So I said, sure I wouldn't mind a Unique FLASH so I sat down in front of the display and stared blankly at them... then I reached in for the pack I wanted and knocked another off the shelf, so I said to myself, self, since you knocked that one over you have to buy that one to... So I told Jon, that's my buddy, that I am buying these two, but I am going to open this one first because it's the one that fell on the floor and called out to me... and he's like dude, that's not going to be it, there's nothing in that one... so I opened it up and pulled out the Unique Flash and walked over to him and said... Oh yeah, what's this... then the pack that I actually picked out had #### in it... heh! oh well. I got the (U) Flash in the first pack and he was bummed and told everyone that I was evil, see. :D

Enjoy.
Cat

[Phantom]

It’s funny, but I was at a tourney over the weekend and V White Queen was the last one standing in one of the games I watched. Offensively she’s not much, but she’s a defensive powerhouse who will often be ignored until the end of the game, when everyone is too damaged to be able to hit or damage her. She’s not worth much in a 200- 300-point game, but in 500+ points her defensive abilities will keep her alive a lot longer than Panther would be.

[sluggo]

I don't know why they didn't give the Vet. White Queen mind control and pyshic blast before or after her Inv. When she mutated again she didn't loser her other powers, she just gained another one.

[Jean_genie]

I agree with most of what has been said about Exp who are better than Vets, except for Thor. Vet Thor pays extra for an Avengers ability that will never be useful to him, but I certainly don't feel the Exp is better. For one thing, look at Super Skrull: very few differences between he and Exp Thor, but he's about 25 points cheaper, plus has the Skrull ability. For one, I don't think I'd ever play Exp Thor over Super Skrull. Even if I was playing a themed army .... I'd still want one of the Thors that was an Avenger. As far as Vet White Queen goes, I think she's almost a different character than the R and E versions.

Have you noticed though, that 98% of the "Exp is better than Vet" arguements have to do with team abilities? For example, how many people would still play Exp Black Cat over Vet every time, if the Vet had the wildcard team ability? How many people would use Exp Ultron over Vet if the Vet wasn't MoE? Etc, etc. There are a few exceptions of course .... Panther's leap/climb, Batman and Superman's Leadership, and a couple others ... but overall, the problem seems to be that the Vet versions keep getting stuck with expensive team abilties that nobody wants.

[Mr Deadpool]

Jean_genie - That's it you hit the nail on the head. They make them more for their team ability... which is a suck.

Perhaps WK should post some polls on these boards, without letting us know that it's them, then that way the people can make the shots and then from that discern what's the best thing to do... perhaps if they did that then WQ wouldn't suck as much as she does now.

Well thanks for putting that to sleep, it made for a good debate and good days worth of work shot to heck!

Thanks.
Cat

[the itsy bit]

I want a V White Queen !

I'll trick her into using her Diamond form so I can sell her to buy Nightcrawler !
Well she isn't going to read my mind now is she !?:mad: :confused:

[Aron]

She loses her psychic abilities when she morphs
for that reason - giving her mind control would only boost her cost (they couldn't give her range, because technically she loses the ability to range after her first click)

so she'd be a 4 range mind controller who costs 100 points.. uhhh.

Psy Blast would be useless with 0 range.

Super Senses would've been nice on the first click though - then again it would've just driven her cost up even more