Nova Blast & Indomitable

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I understand that Nova Blast ignores Willpower and any TAs. However, does Nova Blast ignore Indomitable? I would say it the fig would take no damage. Am I right? So a character with Indomitable can use Nova Blast while not taking the 2 damage?

[Quebbster]

Absolutely correct.
Which makes SR Ultron even more terrifying.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Absolutely correct.
Which makes SR Ultron even more terrifying.

I have a better idea in mind for next week's tourney using Pulse Wave and Nova Blast, and Outwit. I'll be able to wipe an entire 400 point team in about 2 turns.

I went 3 and 0 tonight using Thor & Loki team tonight. I'll post in a day or two in the proper forum my Thor & Loki unbeatable team, and I really mean unbeatable.

Thanks for the help! Rep given!

[Daky]

Yeah that was made known back in Secret Invasion, To date there are 4 figs, But Ultron and LE Thor are the only ones top dial that can do it.

[Quebbster]

a similar trick is using Endurance to soak up the pushing clicks by the way.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Thanks again Quebbster. All of you have a great Thanksgiving! I'll tell you what I have planned after I do it in the Strategy and Tactics forum. And I'll post my unbeatable Thor and Loki Duo team there too.

One more question...

The new Captain America's LOF is only blocked by Indoor Blocking Terrain and Walls. If a character has Camouflage feat card, Cap can still draw a LOF to said character even if that character is up against a wall or blocking terrain for a Ranged Combat Attack., correct? I know that in most cases, no LOF can be made for Ranged Combat Attacks, but Outwit and Perplex can still be used, as Camouflage doesn't effect LOF in general, but only for Ranged Combat Attacks. But it appears that Cap's special power over-rules the feat in this regard, and can make LOF for Ranged Combat Attacks.

[Quebbster]

Thanks again Quebbster. All of you have a great Thanksgiving! I'll tell you what I have planned after I do it in the Strategy and Tactics forum. And I'll post my unbeatable Thor and Loki Duo team there too.
We don't celebrate Thanksgiving here in Europe, but hey, you have a great weekend anyway! :)
(it's not like it's a bad weekend over here anyway... it's the official start of the Christmas season...)

One more question...

The new Captain America's LOF is only blocked by Indoor Blocking Terrain and Walls. If a character has Camouflage feat card, Cap can still draw a LOF to said character even if that character is up against a wall or blocking terrain for a Ranged Combat Attack., correct? I know that in most cases, no LOF can be made for Ranged Combat Attacks, but Outwit and Perplex can still be used, as Camouflage doesn't effect LOF in general, but only for Ranged Combat Attacks. But it appears that Cap's special power over-rules the feat in this regard, and can make LOF for Ranged Combat Attacks.
That seems to be the consensus here, yes. A feat card is not a wall or indoor blocking terrain.

[jak7890]

We don't celebrate Thanksgiving here in Europe, but hey, you have a great weekend anyway! :)

...ungrateful savages... :p

Happy holidays, then!

[vlad3theimpaler]

After realizing how cool Indomitable is, I think I'm going to have to try haymaker on Heimdall. This could be fun.

[Harpua]

After realizing how cool Indomitable is, I think I'm going to have to try haymaker on Heimdall. This could be fun.

Try it on Power Man and Iron Fist.

They have the :a-duo: symbol. Since Haymaker gives -1:a-fist:, that reduction isn't applied to them when using Haymaker.

[WhoaDirty]

a similar trick is using Endurance to soak up the pushing clicks by the way.

Endurance says: "When the character would be dealt pushing damage, you can instead choose to deal no damage to the character and put an endurance token on this card." So does this mean you only put one token on the Endurance card? IE When using Nova Blast.

[normalview]

Endurance says: "When the character would be dealt pushing damage, you can instead choose to deal no damage to the character and put an endurance token on this card." So does this mean you only put one token on the Endurance card? IE When using Nova Blast.

It was ruled (and is now in the Player's Guide) that when using Endurance, you add one token for every click of pushing damage.

So Nova Blast all by its lonesome would add two tokens... and if you pushed to do it, you'd be adding three.

[Daky]

It was ruled (and is now in the Player's Guide) that when using Endurance, you add one token for every click of pushing damage.

So Nova Blast all by its lonesome would add two tokens... and if you pushed to do it, you'd be adding three.

I blow you up now, and blow myself up later...

[SLVRSR4]

My Judge won't let us use any of the combos that involve indomitable and feat cards that cause pushing damage. He says that it doesn't coincide with the spirit of the game as most of those feat cards were created YEARS before anybody had indomitable. For the most part I don't mind. However, I would love to blast the #### out of someone with Ultron like that.

[get_1]

a similar trick is using Endurance to soak up the pushing clicks by the way.

An even better trick is to use The Chief's "Manipulate" tokens. Check it. It lets you get by scott-free with Nova Blast.


That's an early Christmas present for all you cheesers. ;)

[Quebbster]

An even better trick is to use The Chief's "Manipulate" tokens. Check it. It lets you get by scott-free with Nova Blast.
I know. (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224472) Still, that requires some luck with your rolls - there's always the chance that you'll roll 1 or 2. Endurance is dead certain, though it may come back later on.

[Harpua]

My Judge won't let us use any of the combos that involve indomitable and feat cards that cause pushing damage. He says that it doesn't coincide with the spirit of the game as most of those feat cards were created YEARS before anybody had indomitable. For the most part I don't mind. However, I would love to blast the #### out of someone with Ultron like that.

Who best determines the spirit of the game?

The question was taken to the game designers. They said that it works. If it was against the spirit of the game, then it would have been changed.

[Steadfast]

It was House-ruled at my venue that Nova Blast causes the character using it to take two clix of unavoidable damage, which in my opinion, is in the spirit of the game.

[normalview]

It was House-ruled at my venue that Nova Blast causes the character using it to take two clix of unavoidable damage, which in my opinion, is in the spirit of the game.

Who best determines the spirit of the game?

The question was taken to the game designers. They said that it works. If it was against the spirit of the game, then it would have been changed.

So you know better than GD what GD meant for the game to do, Steadfast? ;)

[Terman8er]

I think the rules, feats and assorted printed material for HeroClix will be considered classic literature in 20 odd years. Why? Because like today's "classics" we will still be spending hours trying to figure out what the author really meant in his writing. :) Even if, in some cases, we have the authors word on it.

[Steadfast]

So you know better than GD what GD meant for the game to do, Steadfast? ;)

First off, thank you for the snide remark. It shows the level of maturity of the author.

Second, no, I do not think I know better than the GD, I think I am keeping things in the spirit of what the GD set up.

Novablast came out in the Fantastic Forces set and was retired by the time that Endurance and Indomitable were introduced to the game. Heroclix had evolved since Novablast was introduced and as the feat was not re-printed, the language of the feat was not updated to reflect the changes to the game.

The House-rule was created to update the feat.

[Terman8er]

First off, thank you for the snide remark. It shows the level of maturity of the author.

Second, no, I do not think I know better than the GD, I think I am keeping things in the spirit of what the GD set up.

Novablast came out in the Fantastic Forces set and was retired by the time that Endurance and Indomitable were introduced to the game. Heroclix had evolved since Novablast was introduced and as the feat was not re-printed, the language of the feat was not updated to reflect the changes to the game.

The House-rule was created to update the feat.

I think calling that remark "snide" (in response to an ignorant post) is pushing it. But now that you have been educated, as to what the Game Developers said on the matter, continuing to argue your case is starting to get, well, ridiculous...to say the least.

[Harpua]

First off, thank you for the snide remark. It shows the level of maturity of the author.

Second, no, I do not think I know better than the GD, I think I am keeping things in the spirit of what the GD set up.

Novablast came out in the Fantastic Forces set and was retired by the time that Endurance and Indomitable were introduced to the game. Heroclix had evolved since Novablast was introduced and as the feat was not re-printed, the language of the feat was not updated to reflect the changes to the game.

The House-rule was created to update the feat.

But the point is that if GD truly felt that it was going against the spirit of the game, they would have done that via errata. Retired or not is really not the issue.

As an example, the Fantastic Four feat card from the very same set as Nova Blast received errata in the most recent players guide.

The point is that your venue is free to house rule it, but to try and justify that house rule by saying that it is in the spirit of the game is not a good argument.

[subliminalthreat]

What about Odin? He can use outwit and has pulsewayve on his first few clix? and he has 3 targets. Does this mean he can outwit 3 characters then use Nova Blast and not take the damage?

[Quebbster]

What about Odin? He can use outwit and has pulsewayve on his first few clix? and he has 3 targets. Does this mean he can outwit 3 characters then use Nova Blast and not take the damage?
He can only Outwit a single target. his number of lightning bolts is irrelevant.
But yeah, he can NB without feedback damage per the rules.

[csi]

So you know better than GD what GD meant for the game to do, Steadfast? ;)

But the point is that if GD truly felt that it was going against the spirit of the game, they would have done that via errata. Retired or not is really not the issue.

As an example, the Fantastic Four feat card from the very same set as Nova Blast received errata in the most recent players guide.

The point is that your venue is free to house rule it, but to try and justify that house rule by saying that it is in the spirit of the game is not a good argument.

I believe GD has not made any kid of ruling on how Novablast works or does not work in conjunction with a figure who has pulse wave and indomitable so how is your speculation any better then his? The card does seem to unbalance the game when used in that manner. I certainly wouldn't blame a venue for house ruling it to give two unavoidable damage.

[subliminalthreat]

Thanks Q! Appreciate the help and I promise I won't cause anymore trouble, for the time being.

[Harpua]

I believe GD has not made any kid of ruling on how Novablast works or does not work in conjunction with a figure who has pulse wave and indomitable so how is your speculation any better then his? The card does seem to unbalance the game when used in that manner. I certainly wouldn't blame a venue for house ruling it to give two unavoidable damage.

On this issue specifically I cannot recall if it was confirmed, but it most definitely was confirmed on a more general scale.

It was first ruled that Endurance was perfectly fine to use for ignoring the damage with things like Nova Blast and Haymaker.

It was then confirmed that Indomitable figures would not be penalized when using feats that give a push click ignoring powers and TAs. Since Nova Blast is one of those feats, the ruling stands. And as I recall, the issue was brought to GD's attention for Indomitable and Haymaker (PM&IF) as well as Nova Blast (Magus). In other words, we do have conclusive word from game design that the combo is valid.

[Gentlegamer]

The point is that your venue is free to house rule it, but to try and justify that house rule by saying that it is in the spirit of the game is not a good argument.Actually, it's the best argument.

The players discover what the designers do not.

[normalview]

I believe GD has not made any kid of ruling on how Novablast works or does not work in conjunction with a figure who has pulse wave and indomitable so how is your speculation any better then his? The card does seem to unbalance the game when used in that manner. I certainly wouldn't blame a venue for house ruling it to give two unavoidable damage.

Because it isn't speculation ;)

Did GD provide a ruling with Nova Blast specifically?

To the best of my knowledge, no, GD never even said "Boo" on the subject.

Did they rule on feats that cause pusing damage in general (Haymaker, Darkness Within, Pounce prior to the reprint, etc)?

Yes, they ruled that Endurance and Indomitable and E-2 Supes trait (and anything else you care to mention that isn't a power or team ability) work just fine at preventing feat-caused pusing damage.

[Harpua]

Actually, it's the best argument.

The players discover what the designers do not.

This is incorrect in this situation.

The players discovered something which may have been incorrect.
It was shown to the designers...which made them just as aware of the "situation" as the players.
The designers then confirmed that it is indeed supposed to work that way.

So, yeah, what I said before still holds true. The designers are aware of what some people consider to be an error. They have confirmed that is not an error. Someone who, at that point, proceeds to say that he knows the intention better than the designers is using faulty reasoning.

[csi]

On this issue specifically I cannot recall if it was confirmed, but it most definitely was confirmed on a more general scale.

It was first ruled that Endurance was perfectly fine to use for ignoring the damage with things like Nova Blast and Haymaker.

It was then confirmed that Indomitable figures would not be penalized when using feats that give a push click ignoring powers and TAs. Since Nova Blast is one of those feats, the ruling stands. And as I recall, the issue was brought to GD's attention for Indomitable and Haymaker (PM&IF) as well as Nova Blast (Magus). In other words, we do have conclusive word from game design that the combo is valid.

fist of all endurance has a penalty built into it, the player has to continue to roll for the tokens on it and will more then likely eventually take the damage. If you have a link to where GD has determined that their intent was to allow Nova Blast to work with Indomitable please provide it. Otherwise its still just speculation as to what GD intent is.

[Quebbster]

Did they rule on feats that cause pusing damage in general (Haymaker, Darkness Within, Pounce prior to the reprint, etc)?
Tangent: Was there ever a chance to rule on Pounce? It was released in Origin... well before the methods of avoiding feedback damage mentioned here.
Just curious.

[normalview]

Tangent: Was there ever a chance to rule on Pounce? It was released in Origin... well before the methods of avoiding feedback damage mentioned here.
Just curious.

There really wasn't a need for a ruling since the new wording replaces the old and, thus, no version of Pounce causes pushing damage:

Pounce (orF006)

Prerequisites: Leap/Climb and a damage value of 1 or 2

Choose a character.

Give the character a power action. Move the character up to its speed value and make a close combat attack as a free action. After resolving the attack, the character takes 1 unavoidable damage.

[Quebbster]

If you have a link to where GD has determined that their intent was to allow Nova Blast to work with Indomitable please provide it. Otherwise its still just speculation as to what GD intent is.
That's the problem... all those rulings made on the WK forums were lost when the forums were closed down.
However, if Harpua or Drunky says a ruling was made that's good enough for me at least.

[Quebbster]

There really wasn't a need for a ruling since the new wording replaces the old

yeah, that's what I figured. I was just curious if this issue ever came up in relation to Pounce... and I assume it didn't, so mentioning it was just a red herring. :)

[normalview]

That's the problem... all those rulings made on the WK forums were lost when the forums were closed down.
However, if Harpua or Drunky says a ruling was made that's good enough for me at least.

You may want to check nbperp's blog (the link is in his signature, I believe). He copied some of the more important WK forum stuff to his blog before it closed down. This may be in there (I don't know for sure, though).

[Gentlegamer]

Yes, they ruled that Endurance and Indomitable and E-2 Supes trait (and anything else you care to mention that isn't a power or team ability) work just fine at preventing feat-caused pusing damage.This what's known as a "bad ruling" that players should ignore for the better of their game.

The correct ruling should have been to errata all instances of "takes pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities" to "takes unavoidable damage."

Game "design" has shown time and time again that it is inconsistent and often poor at making rulings with diverse elements of the game (old feats and new abilities). Omissions and inconsistencies do not build up good support in favor of a ruling.

[Harpua]

fist of all endurance has a penalty built into it, the player has to continue to roll for the tokens on it and will more then likely eventually take the damage. If you have a link to where GD has determined that their intent was to allow Nova Blast to work with Indomitable please provide it. Otherwise its still just speculation as to what GD intent is.

No it isn't.

As normalview said, they've confirmed that anything which ignores pushing and is not a power or team ability will ignore this kind of damage.

Nova Blast falls into this category. As a result we definitely know the ruling.

If a new feat or special power came out which said "Give this character a close combat action..." would you say that it first needs confirmation from GD before you would accept a ruling saying that it could be used with Charge or BCF? No, because we already have the ruling covering the general situation into which it falls.

It is the same thing here.

Furthermore, as I said above, the whole Indomitable situation was covered when SI was released. I know it was definitely covered for Haymaker, but I'm also pretty sure it was also specifically covered for NB as well with Magus.

[normalview]

This what's known as a "bad ruling" that players should ignore for the better of their game.

The correct ruling should have been to errata all instances of "takes pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities" to "takes unavoidable damage."

Game "design" has shown time and time again that it is inconsistent and often poor at making rulings with diverse elements of the game (old feats and new abilities). Omissions and inconsistencies do not build up good support in favor of a ruling.

But it is what we got.

Use it or don't, that's your choice and more power to you. Just be aware that if you don't use it, you are not following the intent of GD (which, oddly enough, is what so many people try to argue when things don't work exactly like they think it should :rolleyes: ;)).

[Gentlegamer]

No it isn't.

As normalview said, they've confirmed that anything which ignores pushing and is not a power or team ability will ignore this kind of damage.Where is this "ruling" so we may cite it and print it out for reference?

[Harpua]

This what's known as a "bad ruling" that players should ignore for the better of their game.
That whole statement is one of opinion and not fact.

The correct ruling should have been to errata all instances of "takes pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities" to "takes unavoidable damage."
This is more opinion.

Game "design" has shown time and time again that it is inconsistent and often poor at making rulings with diverse elements of the game (old feats and new abilities). Omissions and inconsistencies do not build up good support in favor of a ruling.
How is the ruling in any way inconsistent?

The effects say that they deal pushing damage that ignores Willpower and TA's that ignore pushing damage.

That is EXACTLY how the ruling works. To call that inconsistent is simply wrong.

[Gentlegamer]

Just be aware that if you don't use it, you are not following the intent of GD (which, oddly enough, is what so many people try to argue when things don't work exactly like they think it should :rolleyes: ;)).Ah, now I see the disconnect. The intent of "Game Design" and intent of a rule in question (spirit of the game, etc.) are not identical.

Has any errata or ruling ever been applied to Stunning Blow?

[normalview]

Where is this "ruling" so we may cite it and print it out for reference?

RE: Endurance specifically, see this entry from the player's guide:

There are many feats that deal pushing damage as a cost for using it – Endurance can be used to prevent that damage as well – one token is placed on the card for each pushing damage dealt.

As for Indomitable, E-2 Supes, etc. see Quebbster's post (and my response) a couple posts up.

[Harpua]

Where is this "ruling" so we may cite it and print it out for reference?

You know that you are asking for a link for a site no longer available.
No official rulings were made on this site.

But if you want to see the ruling in black and white, look at the card. It says: "Choose a character. When the character uses Pulse Wave, its damage does not become 1 for the attack. Use the character’s unmodified damage value for the attack, regardless of how many clear lines of fire can be drawn. After resolving this action, the character takes 2 pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities; remove this Nova Blast from the game."

That is crystal clear. If it is not one of those things, it is ignored.

[Quebbster]

I don't know about you, but I think this thread has derailed.
You know what the 'official' ruling is. If you want to follow it or not, or like it or not, is really up to you.