View Full Version : Range for SPs on Pip and Ragnarok Surtur
Ultimate2099
11/29/2009, 20:37
Pip the Troll:
SPACE GEM: Pip the troll can use Phasing/teleport. He can use it normally, or if he is not using the Carry ability, you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character. If you do, He can make a close combat attack as a free action.
Ragnarok Surtur:
ETERNAL FLAME: Give Ragnarok Surtur a power action when he occupies an opponent's starting area. Any other character Ragnarok Surtur can draw a line of fire to is dealt 1 unavoidable damage. If this places a second action token on Ragnarok Surtur, deal him 1 unavoidable damage.
Neither of these powers seems to have a range limit. Only line of fire is called for. Is this correct?
VGA d1sc1pL3
11/29/2009, 20:44
With Pip, I would say it's his Movement Value that determines how far he can move with his 2nd option of his Phasing / Teleport special power. The reason being, he is still using Phasing / Teleport, which is limited by a figure's movement value.
In regards to Ragnarok Surtur, I would say the LOF is unlimited since it doesn't specifically state the range, and since it's a special power that isn't reliant on a standard power. With Pip's special power, it is reliant on Phasing / Teleport.
imaleximsweet
11/29/2009, 21:11
AGENT OF THE TIME-KEEPERS: Immortus can use Outwit and Probability Control. Probability Control can't be used by opposing characters to which Immortus has a clear line of fire.
Here we have an already in placed example were the only requirement for the use of a power is a clear line of fire.
like you said there is no limit.
I also would say that Pip's power overrides the normal Phasing/teleport and therefore he would be able to move clear across the map to which he has a line of fire.
GD is smart enough to know that if there was to be a limit, they would put a limit in the power (see Oos Batman/Danger) they all give a limit, or say "up to his movement value" clear line of fire can go straight across the board.
it also falls in line with the spirit of the power; Space Gem allows far distances to be reached in an instant; so a clear line of fire power (that we have seen before) is perfectly logical
VGA d1sc1pL3
11/29/2009, 22:35
GD is smart enough to know that if there was to be a limit, they would put a limit in the power...
I wouldn't give them that much credit. If they were that smart, we wouldn't need hundreds of pages of errata or thousands of posts on the true meaning of the powers and abilities. :)
imaleximsweet
11/29/2009, 22:38
I wouldn't give them that much credit. If they were that smart, we wouldn't need hundreds of pages of errata or thousands of posts on the true meaning of the powers and abilities. :)
No, if WE were smart we wouldnt need hundreds of pages of errata.
The game design knows exactly what they want, we're the ones that dont get it.
No, if WE were smart we wouldnt need hundreds of pages of errata.
The game design knows exactly what they want, we're the ones that dont get it.
Agreed, you also have someone reading things the way they want/think things should be without regard for what the rules actually say which leads to most of the debates that have been seen lately.
FlatFootedBoy
11/29/2009, 23:06
No, if WE were smart we wouldnt need hundreds of pages of errata.
The game design knows exactly what they want, we're the ones that dont get it.
And typos.
I'm arguing for Pip's is unlimited. It gives ALL the stipulations on where you can move.
Line of fire. Adjacent to friendly character. Adjacent to opposing character.
The real kicker is "any square".
Silver Lantern
11/29/2009, 23:16
With Pip, I would say it's his Movement Value that determines how far he can move with his 2nd option of his Phasing / Teleport special power. The reason being, he is still using Phasing / Teleport, which is limited by a figure's movement value.
In regards to Ragnarok Surtur, I would say the LOF is unlimited since it doesn't specifically state the range, and since it's a special power that isn't reliant on a standard power. With Pip's special power, it is reliant on Phasing / Teleport.
But the power reads:
SPACE GEM: Pip the troll can use Phasing/teleport. He can use it normally, OR if he is not using the Carry ability, you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character. If you do, He can make a close combat attack as a free action.
That language tends to undermine the argument of the limitations and normal restrictions of phasing/teleport being in effect. He's not using it as per the normal use and restrictions on it. At least that's how I read it.
Coincidentally, in the comics I know both the Runner and Pip have used the space gem to get pretty much anywhere in the blink of an eye, which is pretty much in line with unlimited movement range. I know that's not necessarily what controls how it works in game, but it's support for the unlimited range argument also.
zero_cochrane
11/30/2009, 00:00
GD is smart enough to know that if there was to be a limit, they would put a limit in the power (see Oos Batman/Danger) they all give a limit, or say "up to his movement value" clear line of fire can go straight across the board.Phrases like "up to his full movement value" are so commonplace in special powers that I'd say the omission is deliberate. That, and the "any square" stipulation, leads me to think that Space Gem should have an unlimited "range".
creator9000
11/30/2009, 00:37
gee with surter's gaintness he could see most any piece on the board coulnd't he? wow that's pretty painful
gee with surter's gaintness he could see most any piece on the board coulnd't he? wow that's pretty painful
it's even better when hes in his own starting area and you MC him and hey look hes in an opponents starting area PING!
VGA d1sc1pL3
11/30/2009, 01:20
it's even better when hes in his own starting area and you MC him and hey look hes in an opponents starting area PING!
Great idea! That rocks. I'll try this one day if I ever get the chance.
Great idea! That rocks. I'll try this one day if I ever get the chance.
Good luck as he'll most likely be protected by FRI.
Also, keep in mind that he'll probably be seeing all of your guys, too.
zero_cochrane
11/30/2009, 07:16
You can't pull this off on the first round anyway. Ragnarok Surtur doesn't get that special power until his sixth click.
You can't pull this off on the first round anyway. Ragnarok Surtur doesn't get that special power until his sixth click.
I wasn't looking at the dial.
I wouldn't give them that much credit. If they were that smart, we wouldn't need hundreds of pages of errata or thousands of posts on the true meaning of the powers and abilities. :)
Even though I agree completely with this :D I have to disagree with your opinion regarding PIPīs power
SPACE GEM: Pip the troll can use Phasing/teleport. He can use it normally, or if he is not using the Carry ability, you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character. If you do, He can make a close combat attack as a free action.
IMO he can use it normally or not normally.
If he is using it not normally we canīt pretend that it will behave normally.
Please I know it sounds weird :D , but really, moving beyond his movement value is one of the things I would consider "not normal".
That is the reason why I would let him move to wherever he has clear LOF if he is not using the carry ability and to an square adjacent to... (well, you get the idea).
Even though I agree completely with this :D I have to disagree with your opinion regarding PIPīs power
SPACE GEM: Pip the troll can use Phasing/teleport. He can use it normally, or if he is not using the Carry ability, you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character. If you do, He can make a close combat attack as a free action.
IMO he can use it normally or not normally.
If he is using it not normally we canīt pretend that it will behave normally.
Please I know it sounds weird :D , but really, moving beyond his movement value is one of the things I would consider "not normal".
That is the reason why I would let him move to wherever he has clear LOF if he is not using the carry ability and to an square adjacent to... (well, you get the idea).
i have come to agree that he has not move limit based on the "any square he has LoF adjacent to an opponent and friendly figure"
But just b/c it says normal or X way does not mean it makes it all not normal. if that was the case the perplex that can only be used on opponents would not have the range limit of 10.
When you do things X way you do what it says in regards of what is not normal.
normalview
11/30/2009, 16:28
i have come to agree that he has not move limit based on the "any square he has LoF adjacent to an opponent and friendly figure"
But just b/c it says normal or X way does not mean it makes it all not normal. if that was the case the perplex that can only be used on opponents would not have the range limit of 10.
When you do things X way you do what it says in regards of what is not normal.
Right.
As we've seen time and time again with tweaked version of Outwit, Perplex, etc. the non-normalness (if you will) of a the power in question only extends as far as the power description (or errata) specifically allow; in all other respects the power still behaves normally.
In otherwords, if Pip is using Phasing/Teleport, even non-normally, it still follows all the normal rules for Phasing/Teleport except for those rules specifically stated as exceptions in the SP description.
While it may seem that he could go anywhere he could draw LOF (and it would be much more useful if he could), I have yet to see an air-tight argument that says he doesn't have to follow the normal, "Give this character a power action and move it up to its speed value," part of Phasing/Teleport. You can certainly draw LOF to a square within his movement value, after all... it is not like the two conditions are mutually exclusive.
thanoson
12/01/2009, 01:57
Right.
As we've seen time and time again with tweaked version of Outwit, Perplex, etc. the non-normalness (if you will) of a the power in question only extends as far as the power description (or errata) specifically allow; in all other respects the power still behaves normally.
In otherwords, if Pip is using Phasing/Teleport, even non-normally, it still follows all the normal rules for Phasing/Teleport except for those rules specifically stated as exceptions in the SP description.
While it may seem that he could go anywhere he could draw LOF (and it would be much more useful if he could), I have yet to see an air-tight argument that says he doesn't have to follow the normal, "Give this character a power action and move it up to its speed value," part of Phasing/Teleport. You can certainly draw LOF to a square within his movement value, after all... it is not like the two conditions are mutually exclusive.
Umm... if they didn't add the LOF part in there, he could use his power anyways AS NORMAL. The LoF part is now the exception to the rule. This sets the parameter of his movement to the range of LoF.
Umm... if they didn't add the LOF part in there, he could use his power anyways AS NORMAL. The LoF part is now the exception to the rule. This sets the parameter of his movement to the range of LoF.
Exactly. If he must stay in his speed value, then there is nothing different with this power than with regular Phasing.
VanisherPunisher
12/01/2009, 07:43
Exactly. If he must stay in his speed value, then there is nothing different with this power than with regular Phasing.
Except that he gets to make a free close combat attack.
normalview
12/01/2009, 08:57
Exactly. If he must stay in his speed value, then there is nothing different with this power than with regular Phasing.
Not true.
If there was truly nothing different, he could always move behind a row of characters, around corner, up on elevated terrain, etc. and then perform the attack.
As it stands now, he needs to see where he is going... but just because he needs to see where he is going does not mean that he can go any further than he normally could go.
The two conditions ("square to which he can draw LOF" and "within his speed value") are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
Look, I am not saying that this isn't the way GD wanted it to work (I can't read their minds any better than you all can), but I am also not seeing anything that states definitively, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that second part of Space Gem is not limited to his normal speed value. And since I don't see anything that provides an exception that that part of the normal Phasing/Teleport rules, Pip must follow that part of the normal rules.
At my events I am ruling the "non-carry, non-normal" part of Space Gem to simply be a "pop" from his starting square to his destination square. No limits from move value, or intervening path. The target square is quite clearly defined in the power, with otherwise very tight restrictions.
I've told my players of one other subtlety and how I will rule it: because it is a "pop" and not regular movement, Pip the Troll can only pick up an objects that he could pick up from the starting and stopping squares.
Any other rulings make the power essentially no different than HSS, regular phasing, "transporter" move+attack, or even the full-move-then-attack special white powers. It would be subtley different, but if it were meant to be anything other than the "pop", I believe they would have worded it like any of the other available move+attack powers.
JDKenada
12/01/2009, 22:31
No, if WE were smart we wouldnt need hundreds of pages of errata.
The game design knows exactly what they want, we're the ones that dont get it.
A small populace don't get it...the rest try to drive a Buick through the loopholes. :tired:
imaleximsweet
12/01/2009, 23:48
A small populace don't get it...the rest try to drive a Buick through the loopholes. :tired:
HEY!
...whats wrong with drivin a Buick? :(
Can you use Phasing and the Carry Ability at the same time? If so he is limited by his movement. If the 2 can be used together I believe he only limited by his line of sight. It comes down to how the commas are used.
normalview
12/02/2009, 07:40
Can you use Phasing and the Carry Ability at the same time? If so he is limited by his movement. If the 2 can be used together I believe he only limited by his line of sight. It comes down to how the commas are used.
SPACE GEM: Pip the troll can use Phasing/teleport. He can use it normally, or if he is not using the Carry ability, you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character. If you do, He can make a close combat attack as a free action.
He's a transporter, so sure he could use regular Phasing/Teleport (the "use it normally" part of the SP) while carrying. Just like, say, Lockjaw... but with a much smaller speed value.
The other part of the SP, the part we are all scratching our heads over, begins be specifically saying, "if he is not using the Carry ability." So that's out.
Espada06GrimmJow
12/03/2009, 08:07
Good luck as he'll most likely be protected by FRI.
Also, keep in mind that he'll probably be seeing all of your guys, too.
Question:
- so does this mean ANYONE, including my own figures, are dealt the 1 click of unaviodable damage if I am using Rang. Sur. and he has LOF?
Quebbster
12/03/2009, 08:10
Question:
- so does this mean ANYONE, including my own figures, are dealt the 1 click of unaviodable damage if I am using Rang. Sur. and he has LOF?
Yup.
The power says 'any other character'. not 'any other opposing character'...
Espada06GrimmJow
12/03/2009, 13:04
Yup.
The power says 'any other character'. not 'any other opposing character'...
Kewl, thanks for the answer! My friend is using his today or tomorrow .
adamkomar
12/03/2009, 13:36
"any square" seems really definitive to me.
Thunderclese
12/04/2009, 22:19
My assumption is unlimited range. It says any square and gives plenty of other limitations so I don't see how a person can say it's not clear enough, unless I'm about to use the power against them and they weren't prepared for it. It's the Space Gem for cryin' out loud!
JDKenada
12/05/2009, 00:18
HEY!
...whats wrong with drivin a Buick? :(
Nothing my friend...merely using it to illustrate a size. Hell, my first car was an 87 Sundance...who'm I to criticize anyone's vehicle.
bluesummers
12/05/2009, 02:07
"any square" seems really definitive to me.
Not quite as definitive as you think, though. Thor's Mighty Chariot is the good example here, as he can shoot to any square he can draw a clear line of sight to, even if based. But it was ruled... or agreed upon... that this SP only works on squares he can see in his range because it is a function of his ranged attack.
Pip, likewise, is using his move power, using Phase and Teleport, and the SP specifies Move not Place, so I would believe this action is still restricted by his movement score.
if the SP said he was Placed in any square he could see, I would support infinite range, but I think Move is still a restrictive term.
Norm? Feel free to chime in here. :P
Quebbster
12/05/2009, 04:15
if the SP said he was Placed in any square he could see, I would support infinite range, but I think Move is still a restrictive term.
It should also be pointed out that the spoiled plytest dial said 'place', but it was then changed to 'move'.
I'm not sure if it means nything, but it might.
adamkomar
12/05/2009, 11:42
I broke it down as to why I believe it works the way I think it does here: http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4430209&postcount=15
I think the question that we don't have a definitive answer to yet is, "Does 'you can instead move him to any square that he has a clear line of fire to that is adjacent to both a friendly character and an opposing character' replace the 'move it up to its speed value' part of Phasing/Teleport or is that special stipulation in addition to the existing power description?"
imaleximsweet
12/05/2009, 22:12
Nothing my friend...merely using it to illustrate a size. Hell, my first car was an 87 Sundance...who'm I to criticize anyone's vehicle.
hahaha i knew what you mean! it is quite the large vehicle... my friends dubbed it the "D-Whip" (D stands for Dumpster) due to the large side, and the amount of trash in it. :cheeky:
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