Ambidextrous

[Crow]

Count Vertigo's SP reads: "THE VERTIGO EFFECT: Count Vertigo can use Incapacitate. When he successfully hits a target opposing character with Incapacitate, also give an action token to up to two opposing characters that have zero actions tokens and are adjacent to the target."

Punisher's SP reads: "CHAINGUN: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage."

Ambidextrous can give these guys 2 targets... but do these powers "get along" with that idea, or not?

In Vertigo's case - do the tokens all resolve simultaneously (in which case, adjacent victims may end up with 2 tokens even when not directly targeted), or is there an order of effect that says once one token goes on, another cannot?

In Punisher's case, does the "once per turn" clause indicate a selection about a particular (single) target, or can it be invoked simultaneously for two targets?

[Harpua]

Count Vertigo's SP reads: "THE VERTIGO EFFECT: Count Vertigo can use Incapacitate. When he successfully hits a target opposing character with Incapacitate, also give an action token to up to two opposing characters that have zero actions tokens and are adjacent to the target."

Punisher's SP reads: "CHAINGUN: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage."

Ambidextrous can give these guys 2 targets... but do these powers "get along" with that idea, or not?
I don't see why not.

In Vertigo's case - do the tokens all resolve simultaneously (in which case, adjacent victims may end up with 2 tokens even when not directly targeted), or is there an order of effect that says once one token goes on, another cannot?
The would be resolved simultaneously. "...When he successfully hits a target opposing character with Incapacitate..." They are all hit at the same time.

At that point, both are checked simultaneously, and both would pass the "no token" check.

I'd say that this sets in motion the effect of getting a token from each.

So you could double token a guy.

In Punisher's case, does the "once per turn" clause indicate a selection about a particular (single) target, or can it be invoked simultaneously for two targets?
I don't see why it would have any effect.

Furthermore, I'd say that the follow-up attacks, because it says "characterS" in the power, could be multi-targetted attacks.

[Crow]

I don't see why it would have any effect.

Furthermore, I'd say that the follow-up attacks, because it says "characterS" in the power, could be multi-targetted attacks.

So let me get this straight. If Punisher is "P" and his enemies are "A B C D E":

XXXXXA
XXXXXB
PXXXXC
XXXXXD


Punisher dual-targets B and C with the Chaingun, and is successful against both. What can he do then? Apparently, he can now make free ranged combat attacks against A, B, C AND D, and I guess further that he can "mix and match" those attacks to be dual-target or single-target as he pleases?

If that's true, he is one sick, sick puppy with this feat. Ambidextrous chainguns FTW!

[normalview]

II don't see why it would have any effect.

Furthermore, I'd say that the follow-up attacks, because it says "characterS" in the power, could be multi-targetted attacks.

In Punisher's case, the fact that it says, "Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire," is what normally keeps him from double-dipping (if you will).

Say he targets a character in between two other characters; that 'once per turn' is what keeps him from hitting the other characters over and over again with the Chaingun.

Now, apply that to a dual target case, and it seems like he can still only hit a character with Chaingun once per turn... so while he could (using Ambidexterous) blast two different groups, I don't think he could target two characters in the same cluser, "layering" the Chaingun to get an EE splash-like effect.

This could really rock in either large games or multiple player games, where there are potentially a lot of cluster of enemies for Punisher to hit. Or it could be a good way to hedge his bets (targeting two characters in the same group, a low DV and a high DV, so that if he misses the higher one he might still hit the second and thus get a chance to Chaingun the whole group), but I don't think it is going let him attack and damage the same character twice.

[Harpua]

In Punisher's case, the fact that it says, "Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire," is what normally keeps him from double-dipping (if you will).

Say he targets a character in between two other characters; that 'once per turn' is what keeps him from hitting the other characters over and over again with the Chaingun.

Now, apply that to a dual target case, and it seems like he can still only hit a character with Chaingun once per turn... so while he could (using Ambidexterous) blast two different groups, I don't think he could target two characters in the same cluser, "layering" the Chaingun to get an EE splash-like effect.

This could really rock in either large games or multiple player games, where there are potentially a lot of cluster of enemies for Punisher to hit. Or it could be a good way to hedge his bets (targeting two characters in the same group, a low DV and a high DV, so that if he misses the higher one he might still hit the second and thus get a chance to Chaingun the whole group), but I don't think it is going let him attack and damage the same character twice.

I wasn't saying the guy could be hit more than once. I was saying what you said about improving the odds.

[normalview]

I wasn't saying the guy could be hit more than once. I was saying what you said about improving the odds.

Gotcha.

I didn't get that from your initial statement, but, hey, at least we are all on the same page now :cool:

[normalview]

So let me get this straight. If Punisher is "P" and his enemies are "A B C D E":

XXXXXA
XXXXXB
PXXXXC
XXXXXD


Punisher dual-targets B and C with the Chaingun, and is successful against both. What can he do then? Apparently, he can now make free ranged combat attacks against A, B, C AND D, and I guess further that he can "mix and match" those attacks to be dual-target or single-target as he pleases?

If that's true, he is one sick, sick puppy with this feat. Ambidextrous chainguns FTW!


Basically he could target any two in that pile, and then attack others that are adjacent, but he could still attack any one of them only once.

I'd recommend targetting B and C. This way, if he misses B (for example) but hits C with the first attack, he'll activate Chaingun with the successful attack on C, allowing him to do the follow-up attacks on B and D (A is safe, though).

[Rellkin]

wow Ambidextrous has all kinds of potential.

With Count Certigo it depends on if the tokens get placed one at a time or at same time which I don't know off top of my head I think this may be a general rules question.

I have to disagree Punisher's chain gun once per turn is so that you can't trigger it off of the adjacent figs who get hit not that each target can only be hit once based on the placement of the once per turn therefore every target adjacent can be hit for every primary target adjacent to it but each attack is separate per the wording so you could not double target on the secondary attacks.

but as always all rulings are up to your local judges(those are the guys running the events) till their is an official ruling.

[Harpua]

I have to disagree Punisher's chain gun once per turn is so that you can't trigger it off of the adjacent figs who get hit not that each target can only be hit once based on the placement of the once per turn therefore every target adjacent can be hit for every primary target adjacent to it.

Good point.

[Munchoboy]

wow Ambidextrous has all kinds of potential.

With Count Certigo it depends on if the tokens get placed one at a time or at same time which I don't know off top of my head I think this may be a general rules question.

I have to disagree Punisher's chain gun once per turn is so that you can't trigger it off of the adjacent figs who get hit not that each target can only be hit once based on the placement of the once per turn therefore every target adjacent can be hit for every primary target adjacent to it but each attack is separate per the wording so you could not double target on the secondary attacks.

but as always all rulings are up to your local judges(those are the guys running the events) till their is an official ruling.

(Rellkin's) Local Judge says:

I agree with Harpua and Normalview and Rellkin. :classic:


I should clarify, that I agree with Harpua and Normalview re: the way Ambidextrous would work with the aforementioned abilities. And I agree with Rellkin that it comes down to local Judges making the call in the absence of a RA, or FAQ style documents.

[normalview]

I have to disagree Punisher's chain gun once per turn is so that you can't trigger it off of the adjacent figs who get hit not that each target can only be hit once based on the placement of the once per turn therefore every target adjacent can be hit for every primary target adjacent to it but each attack is separate per the wording so you could not double target on the secondary attacks.

The problem with that interpretation is that you can't really get past the "once per turn" wording.

If, instead, it read something like EE and had some verbage that read "for every time an adjacent character is hit" or something similar, then it could work. However, Chaingun was pretty obviously written with only a single target in mind (surprise, surprise, what with Punisher only having a one :bolt:), so that wording isn't there. If only Seth had kept Ambidexterous in mind when designing the Punisher :p ;)

As it stands, "once per turn," is pretty clear: Once. Per. Turn. :shrug:

[Crow]

There are multiple English interpretations here.

The common (unmistakable) thread is that is whether a figure is adjacent to one original target or multiple original targets is irrelevant - that figure can only meet the criteria "is adjacent to a target" once, and that is enough to qualify it as a target for a single extra attack.

Beyond that, what is debatable is whether the power means:

1. "Once per turn" you can perform X, where X lets you engage in immediate extra attacks against any targets identified as being adjacent to the original target(s). In this case having TWO original targets adjacent to each other causes a diverging possibility of a) the original target can meet the criteria for the second attack if it is also adjacent to the second original target, or b) not so because it is an original target.

2. "Once per turn" you can perform X, based on choosing ONE successfully hit target (hence "once") and then X lets you engage in immediate extra attacks against any targets identified as being adjacent to the chosen target.

[Harpua]

Chaingun: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage.

I don't see how the "once per turn" is applied to anything except for activating follow-up attacks.

The Punisher makes his first attack, targetting and succeeding against two guys.
What is the result of that? He gets to make the follow-up attacks against figures adjacent to those targets. He only gets to make those follow-up attacks one time, though.

There is nothing saying that the initial target can't be targetted again.


The once per turn simply means that he can only have one attack per turn generating follow-up attacks, but it doesn't apply to the targets.

[nbperp]

Just curious, but would the wording "...an opposing target character." imply that Chaingun only activates off of a single-targeted attack?

[normalview]

Just curious, but would the wording "...an opposing target character." imply that Chaingun only activates off of a single-targeted attack?

No, not really.

If you target one or 8 characters, you targetted an opposing character (it just so happens that this character was maybe part of a larger group).

Compare to RCE where it specifices "a single opposing character"; that is clearly one and only one.

[incredible]

There is nothing saying that the initial target can't be targeted again.


any other opposing character.
Does this answer that question?

I always feel funny trying to prove a point in here. LOL

[sinistersex]

does this card even exist? is it worth discussing if we aren't even going to 'have' it?

[normalview]

The once per turn simply means that he can only have one attack per turn generating follow-up attacks, but it doesn't apply to the targets.

Right. I am pretty sure that is what we've both been saying all along, Harpua... but for some reason I can't seem to keep all the posts in this thread straight.

Maybe it is because I am trying to check this board while grading :laugh:

[boow]

It seems to me that punisher would be able to target two people with a ranged combat attack... and if successful against only one of the two, he could then use chaingun to target the adjacent characters (of the successfully hit target), which could include the original missed target if they were both adjacent. (granting him a second chance)

Now if punisher successfully hit both his original targets, i think the "once per turn" and singular "an opposing target character" would only allow punisher to chaingun the adjacent characters of one of the original hit targets, which again could include the second original target if he was adjacent...

Full Example:
1. Punisher declares 'ranged combat attack' targeting two characters
2. He hits one (or both): declares use of chaingun's "once per turn..." targeting one and only one "opposing target character" he successfully hit
3. rolls attacks against all adjacent characters (regardless of whether he targeted them with his initial ranged combat attack)

I've been overruled and my example is wrong...

[Harpua]

Just curious, but would the wording "...an opposing target character." imply that Chaingun only activates off of a single-targeted attack?

No, not really.

If you target one or 8 characters, you targetted an opposing character (it just so happens that this character was maybe part of a larger group).

Compare to RCE where it specifices "a single opposing character"; that is clearly one and only one.
Yup...this whole thing has cause some confusion in the past with people thinking that "a" and "an" automatically limits something to one.

any other opposing character.
Does this answer that question?

I always feel funny trying to prove a point in here. LOL


Not really.

. . . . . .
. P . . A .
. . . . B .
. . . . . .

Punisher targets A and B.
He succeeds in hitting both with one attack activating the follow-up attacks which can occur once per turn.
These attacks are independent from all other attacks and targets which would have previously happened.
Now, A is a character other than B, and vice versa, so a follow-up attack should be able to be made against them.

[nbperp]

Chaingun: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage.

Since I'm a "needs a picture" kind of guy, let me see if I've understood what's been said here:

. . . . A
. . . . B
P . . . C
. . . . D
. . . . .

If Punisher targets B & C then...

If he misses both, he's done.
If he hits B but misses C, he can then use Chaingun to attack A and C.
If he hits C but misses B, he can then use Chaingun to attack B and D.
If he hits both B and C, he can then use Chaingun to make 4 attacks - A-D.

[normalview]

Since I'm a "needs a picture" kind of guy, let me see if I've understood what's been said here:

. . . . A
. . . . B
P . . . C
. . . . D
. . . . .

If Punisher targets B & C then...

If he misses both, he's done.
If he hits B but misses C, he can then use Chaingun to attack A and C.
If he hits C but misses B, he can then use Chaingun to attack B and D.
If he hits both B and C, he can then use Chaingun to make 4 attacks - A-D.

Right.

Here's a diagram that might explain it even better:

. . . . . .
XX . .AB
XX . .CD
XP . .EF
XX . .GH

X = Elevated terrain

Punisher targets C and E (assume he can draw LOF to all, though). If he hits both C and E, Chaingun will then allow him to attack A and B (who are adjancent to C) and G and H (who are adjacent to E). I think we are all clear on that. But he can also attack C (who is adjacent to E), E (who is adjancent to C), D (adjacent to either C or E, whichever you care to start with), and F (adjacent to either C or E, whicherever you care to start with).

You can not attack D and F twice even though they are adjacent to both C and E, since Chaingun allows only one free attack on a character per turn.

Does that help?

[Crow]

Since I'm a "needs a picture" kind of guy, let me see if I've understood what's been said here:

. . . . A
. . . . B
P . . . C
. . . . D
. . . . .

If Punisher targets B & C then...

If he misses both, he's done.
If he hits B but misses C, he can then use Chaingun to attack A and C.
If he hits C but misses B, he can then use Chaingun to attack B and D.
If he hits both B and C, he can then use Chaingun to make 4 attacks - A-D.

I think this is right, but here's the kicker: with two targets, those follow-up attacks can be made with dual-targets. Assuming each allowed figure is only attacked once, I don't see why not. In this case, the Punisher's controller may be wishing to "combine" die rolls and damage.

[Crow]

Right.

Here's a diagram that might explain it even better:

. . . . . .
XX . .AB
XX . .CD
XP . .EF
XX . .GH

X = Elevated terrain

Punisher targets C and E (assume he can draw LOF to all, though). If he hits both C and E, Chaingun will then allow him to attack A and B (who are adjancent to C) and G and H (who are adjacent to E). I think we are all clear on that. But he can also attack C (who is adjacent to E), E (who is adjancent to C), D (adjacent to either C or E, whichever you care to start with), and F (adjacent to either C or E, whicherever you care to start with).

You can not attack D and F twice even though they are adjacent to both C and E, since Chaingun allows only one free attack on a character per turn.

Does that help?

Yes, I think this clears it up and is consistent with the wording.

[lancelot]

Right.

Here's a diagram that might explain it even better:

. . . . . .
XX . .AB
XX . .CD
XP . .EF
XX . .GH

X = Elevated terrain

Punisher targets C and E (assume he can draw LOF to all, though). If he hits both C and E, Chaingun will then allow him to attack A and B (who are adjancent to C) and G and H (who are adjacent to E). I think we are all clear on that. But he can also attack C (who is adjacent to E), E (who is adjancent to C), D (adjacent to either C or E, whichever you care to start with), and F (adjacent to either C or E, whicherever you care to start with).

You can not attack D and F twice even though they are adjacent to both C and E, since Chaingun allows only one free attack on a character per turn.

Does that help?

So basically, for C and E, they'd be attacked "twice": the first time during the original Chaingun attack and then the second time on the follow up?

[normalview]

So basically, for C and E, they'd be attacked "twice": the first time during the original Chaingun attack and then the second time on the follow up?

Not exactly (and I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from).

Chaingun is not itself any kind of action. Instead, it activates after the Punisher makes a successful ranged combat attack (think, wording-wise, of B/C/F sort of, kind of...).

So, C and E, are attacked twice, but the first time is with just a plain ol' ranged combat attack, and the second time is the follow-up Chaingun attack.

[WolvieFan9]

Just imagine Punisher as a Giant with the Pym Particles card! He could hammer two entire GL Tanks of 9 squares each, if they were all in his range! :cool:

[lancelot]

Just imagine Punisher as a Giant with the Pym Particles card! He could hammer two entire GL Tanks of 9 squares each, if they were all in his range! :cool:

He doesn't have the Avengers TA.

[lancelot]

Not exactly (and I think this is where some of the confusion is coming from).

Chaingun is not itself any kind of action. Instead, it activates after the Punisher makes a successful ranged combat attack (think, wording-wise, of B/C/F sort of, kind of...).

So, C and E, are attacked twice, but the first time is with just a plain ol' ranged combat attack, and the second time is the follow-up Chaingun attack.

Excellent.

Thanks, nv; I guess my problem in "understanding" and "interpreting" rules are all in the wordings. So many little details there :laugh:

[Harpua]

Just imagine Punisher as a Giant with the Pym Particles card! He could hammer two entire GL Tanks of 9 squares each, if they were all in his range! :cool:

Or (from elevated) two clusters of 13...12 guys around a diagonal double-based figure.

[lancelot]

Or (from elevated) two clusters of 13...12 guys around a diagonal double-based figure.

IF Punished qualified for the Feat in the first place. He's got Spider-Man Ally, not Avengers.

[Harpua]

Or (from elevated) two clusters of 13...12 guys around a diagonal double-based figure.
IF Punished qualified for the Feat in the first place. He's got Spider-Man Ally, not Avengers.
Did I say anything about using the feat? ;)

[lancelot]

Did I say anything about using the feat? ;)

*shakes head*

Been missing so many of those foibles lately...

[RedDragon]

does this card even exist? is it worth discussing if we aren't even going to 'have' it?

i agree, why is everyone ignoring this post? where are these feats coming from? are they real? or are they just house rules? i read this and others in another post. i hope there not real they seem broken to me. IMO that is.

[Harpua]

i agree, why is everyone ignoring this post? where are these feats coming from? are they real? or are they just house rules? i read this and others in another post. i hope there not real they seem broken to me. IMO that is.

There are several listed on the WK homepage in the figure gallery.

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/gallery/

The presumption is that these were supposed to have been included in boosters.

[RedDragon]

ok thanks well now i know, and knowing is half the battle. yo joe!

[imaleximsweet]

ok thanks well now i know, and knowing is half the battle. yo joe!

and not knowing is the other half! which... come to think of it isnt that great of a ratio.... :p

[Harpua]

and not knowing is the other half! which... come to think of it isnt that great of a ratio.... :p

Kinda like how honesty is the best policy, but then how, via process of elimination, dishonesty is the second best policy, which isn't all that shabby.

[CaptainNifty]

and not knowing is the other half! which... come to think of it isnt that great of a ratio.... :p

Actually, extreme violence is the other half of the battle, which isn't exactly kid friendly.

[Puuka]

does this card even exist? is it worth discussing if we aren't even going to 'have' it?

From Justin on the WK Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/WizKids/133811649078?v=wall)

More news on the non-LE cards coming soon. Stay tuned for more info over the coming days.

[Rellkin]

ok thanks well now i know, and knowing is half the battle. yo joe!

acting upon this knowledge is the other half.

[RedDragon]

so can this work red arrow & green arrow's power's?

FUSILLADE:#Give Red Arrow a power action. He makes two separate ranged combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls against two different target opposing characters). Resolve the first attack before making the second; if Red Arrow loses Fusillade before making the second attack, he can't make the second attack.TRICK ARROWS:#Red Arrow can use Energy Explosion and Smoke Cloud. When he uses Energy Explosion, after resolving the action he can immediately use Smoke Cloud as a free action but the first hindering terrain marker must be placed in the same square as the target of the Energy Explosion attack.

[W.I.T]

Right.

Here's a diagram that might explain it even better:

. . . . . .
XX . .AB
XX . .CD
XP . .EF
XX . .GH

X = Elevated terrain

Punisher targets C and E (assume he can draw LOF to all, though). If he hits both C and E, Chaingun will then allow him to attack A and B (who are adjancent to C) and G and H (who are adjacent to E). I think we are all clear on that. But he can also attack C (who is adjacent to E), E (who is adjancent to C), D (adjacent to either C or E, whichever you care to start with), and F (adjacent to either C or E, whicherever you care to start with).

You can not attack D and F twice even though they are adjacent to both C and E, since Chaingun allows only one free attack on a character per turn.

Does that help?

All I have to say about that one is: if Punisher makes all his attack rolls....ouch. Oh, and PW is still better :p

[Rellkin]

All I have to say about that one is: if Punisher makes all his attack rolls....ouch. Oh, and PW is still better :p

PW is different less dice rolling yes but the damage potential per fig hit is less as well(with out nova blast at least).

Punisher on elivated Ambidextrous(18 max targets if only talking single based figs) Ultimates to WC and great arena and fingers crossed for lots of doubles. or say no to henchmen :p

[RedDragon]

so can this work red arrow & green arrow's power's?

FUSILLADE:#Give Red Arrow a power action. He makes two separate ranged combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls against two different target opposing characters). Resolve the first attack before making the second; if Red Arrow loses Fusillade before making the second attack, he can't make the second attack.TRICK ARROWS:#Red Arrow can use Energy Explosion and Smoke Cloud. When he uses Energy Explosion, after resolving the action he can immediately use Smoke Cloud as a free action but the first hindering terrain marker must be placed in the same square as the target of the Energy Explosion attack.

help please, yes or no?

[saturnflight]

Can Punisher shoot the middle guy in two different clusters, thereby with a successful hit on both getting a total of 18 attacks in?

Graphic:

P=Punisher, 1=Elevated edge, [_]=empty square, A&D=initial targets, C=Clusters of foes



[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][A][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[P]1[_][_][_][_]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][D][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]

[Saklas]

Can Punisher shoot the middle guy in two different clusters, thereby with a successful hit on both getting a total of 18 attacks in?

Graphic:

P=Punisher, 1=Elevated edge, [_]=empty square, A&D=initial targets, C=Clusters of foes



[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][A][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[P]1[_][_][_][_]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][D][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]

Yes,he could, in theory. Good luck EVER pulling it off.

[Quebbster]

so can this work red arrow & green arrow's power's?

FUSILLADE:#Give Red Arrow a power action. He makes two separate ranged combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls against two different target opposing characters). Resolve the first attack before making the second; if Red Arrow loses Fusillade before making the second attack, he can't make the second attack.TRICK ARROWS:#Red Arrow can use Energy Explosion and Smoke Cloud. When he uses Energy Explosion, after resolving the action he can immediately use Smoke Cloud as a free action but the first hindering terrain marker must be placed in the same square as the target of the Energy Explosion attack.

I'd say no as it specifies they make two separate attack rolls against two different opposing characters - that seems to indicate the attacks need to be single target.

[Harpua]

I'd say no as it specifies they make two separate attack rolls against two different opposing characters - that seems to indicate the attacks need to be single target.

But one could also say that attack one could target A & B with attack two also targeting A & B.

You would have made two attacks targeting two different figures.

[Harpua]

Can Punisher shoot the middle guy in two different clusters, thereby with a successful hit on both getting a total of 18 attacks in?

Graphic:

P=Punisher, 1=Elevated edge, [_]=empty square, A&D=initial targets, C=Clusters of foes



[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][A][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[P]1[_][_][_][_]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]
[_]1[_][C][D][C]
[_]1[_][C][C][C]

Or go for 26 attacks...with double-based figures...

E E . . . . . .
E E . A A A . .
E E . A O A A .
E E . A A O A .
E P . . A A A .
E E . A A A . .
E E . A O A A .
E E . A A O A .
E E . . A A A .
E E . . . . .

[RedDragon]

thanks harpa. tried to send you rep. but "you must spread........."

[BLACKHEART25]

I would say yes to the Red Arrow doing the energy explosion trick to two different groups and laying down the hindering terrain (because unlike Firefly he doesn't quote using a single target). As for green arrow I could see it either way, but lean more towards Quebbster because you're giving a power action to already shot two different characters. If it does go to Harpua's favor, then that is a sick card as well as making two-gun kid nasty for cheaper points. (Factoring in Pym Particles to giant and you get the idea).

This is really crazy and is gonna open all kinds of threads for this stuff!

Can first class Cyclops now shoot two groups with EE and force groups to go back a square?

Can Darkseid now teleport 2 characters wherever he wants?

Can AoA Jean running shot and mindcontrol 2 characters?

Can Quardian soldier guy penetrate energy explosion 2 groups?

I would say yes to all of these now.

Check out the craziness of Xavier and Cassandra nova now!!

Be happy that Jericho and Deadman didn't get a six range (that would have been crazy)

Also, hardcore hcrules arbitrators.........Is Spiderwoman skrull gonna go up in price now that she may be the only sharpshooter with pulsewave?
Elite Sniper just opened up a whole new can of worms!!

[Saklas]

Also, hardcore hcrules arbitrators.........Is Spiderwoman skrull gonna go up in price now that she may be the only sharpshooter with pulsewave?
Elite Sniper just opened up a whole new can of worms!!

Zzaxx and Johnny Sorrow both have Pulse Wave and Super Senses top dial. :cool:

[CaptainNifty]

Actually there are quite a few characters with RCE/Pulsewave or SS/PW, but few are on the opening clicks.

[Harpua]

But one could also say that attack one could target A & B with attack two also targeting A & B.

You would have made two attacks targeting two different figures.

thanks harpa. tried to send you rep. but "you must spread........."

Hey, I'm just playing devil's advocate on that one. I don't know how the official ruling would go.

[RedDragon]

LOL i keep miss spelling your name. U i have to remember the U. LOL

[szude]

New question on Punisher which is different, but certainly applies here.

Again
Punisher's SP reads: "CHAINGUN: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage."

Doesn't this mean that Punisher can attack 1 and only 1 figure twice in a turn (the char originally targeted). Think about it. The original attack allows him to ONE TIME target one other figure which may lead to other attacks. Hitting that one other figure allows him to ONE TIME target one other figure....who could be the first figure. I don't see anywhere in the text where that's disallowed.

The chain would have to stop at that point, though, because of the Once per turn clause.

Right?

[Crow]

New question on Punisher which is different, but certainly applies here.

Again
Punisher's SP reads: "CHAINGUN: Once per turn when the Punisher succeeds at a ranged combat attack against an opposing target character, after the attack resolves he can immediately make ranged combat attacks against any other opposing characters adjacent to the target to which he can draw a clear line of fire. (Each attack is rolled and deals damage separately). If the result of a successful ranged combat attack roll made by the Punisher is doubles, the damage dealt is penetrating damage."

Doesn't this mean that Punisher can attack 1 and only 1 figure twice in a turn (the char originally targeted). Think about it. The original attack allows him to ONE TIME target one other figure which may lead to other attacks. Hitting that one other figure allows him to ONE TIME target one other figure....who could be the first figure. I don't see anywhere in the text where that's disallowed.

The chain would have to stop at that point, though, because of the Once per turn clause.


You've confused the use of "once per turn" - that's a reference to how often you can trigger this power (which grants multiple attacks), not a reference to one attack.
1. Resolve your successful original attack
2. Make ranged combat attacks (in succession) against all legal targets adjacent to the original target.

That's it. There's no recursion, and no targeting the original target, UNLESS your original attack has more than one target (Ambidextrous).

[szude]

You've confused the use of "once per turn" - that's a reference to how often you can trigger this power (which grants multiple attacks), not a reference to one attack.
1. Resolve your successful original attack
2. Make ranged combat attacks (in succession) against all legal targets adjacent to the original target.

That's it. There's no recursion, and no targeting the original target, UNLESS your original attack has more than one target (Ambidextrous).

You're right, I read the second part wrong, about "any other adjacent characters". Thanks.

[adamkomar]

I'm curious about Fusillade and Ambidextrous myself. The only thing that makes me doubt a 'yes' answer to using them together is the parenthetical statement in Fusillade, but we also know that the power was made for characters with one target and before it was possible to give additional targets to a character.

[spider_ham]

I'd add Opportunist to ensure that Frank makes the initial attack rolls (up to a 13 AV on both Chaingun clicks). In addition, allow him to wildcard Guardians of the Globe for both penetrating damage and "Incap" on doubles. :)

[FingerOfGod]

so can this work red arrow & green arrow's power's?

FUSILLADE:#Give Red Arrow a power action. He makes two separate ranged combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls against two different target opposing characters). Resolve the first attack before making the second; if Red Arrow loses Fusillade before making the second attack, he can't make the second attack.TRICK ARROWS:#Red Arrow can use Energy Explosion and Smoke Cloud. When he uses Energy Explosion, after resolving the action he can immediately use Smoke Cloud as a free action but the first hindering terrain marker must be placed in the same square as the target of the Energy Explosion attack.

So did we ever get an official ruling on this? Does this in fact work? Can Red Arrow use Ambidextrous with FUSILLADE and TRICK ARROWS?

[normalview]

So did we ever get an official ruling on this? Does this in fact work? Can Red Arrow use Ambidextrous with FUSILLADE and TRICK ARROWS?

It is being discussed.

No official answer yet, so for the moment go with whatever your judge says... and if you're the judge, use your own judgement :cool:

Hopefully, we'll get back with an answer on this very soon.

[Clixjunkie]

Regarding Thorbuster Ironman's SP and Ambidextrous.

TO FIGHT A GOD: Thorbuster can use exploit weakness. When Thorbuster attacks a character that has the Asgardian and/or Deity keywords, modify his damage value by +2

For the +2 dmg, is it applied once per shot or per character targeted that meets the keyword requirement.

This came up at our venu a couple of times, when I used this combo.

What happens when you target one character with the keyword requirement and one without. Do you still get the +2dmg on one character.

On the same line of thinking, when targeting 2 characters with the keyword requirement, do they EACH take an addtional 2 dmg.

[normalview]

Regarding Thorbuster Ironman's SP and Ambidextrous.

TO FIGHT A GOD: Thorbuster can use exploit weakness. When Thorbuster attacks a character that has the Asgardian and/or Deity keywords, modify his damage value by +2

For the +2 dmg, is it applied once per shot or per character targeted that meets the keyword requirement.

It does not say once per character, so it is a simple +2 to damage value.

What happens when you target one character with the keyword requirement and one without. Do you still get the +2dmg on one character.

The +2 bonus is to damage value, not damage dealt; if you are attacking multiple characters with a ranged combat attack, you divide your damage value between the succesfully hit targets. This really isn't any different than Perplexing up a damage value before a ranged combat attack.

In other words, Thorbuster might normally have a damage value of 3 to divide among multiple targets (with Ambidextrous). If it attacks an Asgardian with its new multiple targets, it would have 5 damage to divide among the targets.

On the same line of thinking, when targeting 2 characters with the keyword requirement, do they EACH take an addtional 2 dmg.

No. One, it is not a per character bonus (as pointed out above). Two, if it attacks multiple characters, it can divide its damage however it likes (also as pointed out above).

[Harpua]

The +2 bonus is to damage value, not damage dealt; if you are attacking multiple characters with a ranged combat attack, you divide your damage value between the succesfully hit targets. This really isn't any different than Perplexing up a damage value before a ranged combat attack.

In other words, Thorbuster might normally have a damage value of 3 to divide among multiple targets (with Ambidextrous). If it attacks an Asgardian with its new multiple targets, it would have 5 damage to divide among the targets.

I'm fairly certain, though, that at least 2 would need to be given to that Asgardian.

I'm basing this on the Monster Hunter ruling.

MONSTER HUNTER
 For the attack value, the +1 would only apply to the characters meeting the feat’s requirements. For the damage value, if the qualifying character is hit, one damage can be dealt to any of the hit targets that qualify before assigning any of the “natural” damage from the attacking character.

In other words, Thorbuster (base 3 damage) targets Thor and Bug.
1) He successfully hits both.
- He has 5 damage to deal between the two, but The most he can give to Bug is 3.
2) He only succeeds at hitting Thor.
- He has 5 damage which will only be dealt to Thor.
3) He only succeeds at hitting Bug.
- He only has 3 damage which will only be dealt to Bug.

[Maraud]

I'm fairly certain, though, that at least 2 would need to be given to that Asgardian.

I'm basing this on the Monster Hunter ruling.



In other words, Thorbuster (base 3 damage) targets Thor and Bug.
1) He successfully hits both.
- He has 5 damage to deal between the two, but The most he can give to Bug is 3.
2) He only succeeds at hitting Thor.
- He has 5 damage which will only be dealt to Thor.
3) He only succeeds at hitting Bug.
- He only has 3 damage which will only be dealt to Bug.

this is what i was also told by nbperp.

[Harpua]

this is what i was also told by nbperp.

Thanks for the tip.

[normalview]

I'm fairly certain, though, that at least 2 would need to be given to that Asgardian.

I'm basing this on the Monster Hunter ruling.



In other words, Thorbuster (base 3 damage) targets Thor and Bug.
1) He successfully hits both.
- He has 5 damage to deal between the two, but The most he can give to Bug is 3.
2) He only succeeds at hitting Thor.
- He has 5 damage which will only be dealt to Thor.
3) He only succeeds at hitting Bug.
- He only has 3 damage which will only be dealt to Bug.

Yeah, looking back at my post I realize that this was not as explicit as it could have been. This was the direction I was heading... I just did not get all the way there, apparently :ermm:

this is what i was also told by nbperp.


Good to have the confirmation.

[jujuzombi]

Zzaxx and Johnny Sorrow both have Pulse Wave and Super Senses top dial. :cool:

phoenix ultimate, lamba zero, superman blue rookie, starhawk, elektro vet, dazzler ultimates, kang!! dr light, can use elite sniper on their first clic.

[canaaron]

R Ray also