Super Power Creep: Generics - Ninja Edition

[CheeseWiz]

Super Power Creep: Generics
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=95&pictureid=7802

Through the course of the game, we have seen figures grow in point cost, and optimized stats. Does the old Clobbering Time Elektra hold a candle to her SI dial? In much the same way, Generics have become more than just a team filler. Normally, possessing little in the way of powers, today, these generics are closer than ever to their super-hero counter-parts. Is it simple evolution of the game, or is Super-Soldier Serum spreading through the ranks of the common generic? Step inside to find out!

[CheeseWiz]

Ninjas are stealthy masters of striking the deadly blow, and they often like pizza (assuming said ninja is a turtle). But, should they be able to take on someone with powers far beyond those of mortal men? Or, at least, a blind lawyer, and a sai-wielding chick with an Elektra complex?

This article will look at the New Hand Ninja and compare them to the older Daredevil and Elektra at around similar point costs. But first, let's take a moment for a quick retrospective:

The Old Hand Ninjas:
xp006 V Hand Ninja
Team: Hydra
Range: 0 :bolt:
Points: 17
Archenemy: Daredevil (Orange)
Keywords: Martial Artist, The Hand, Warrior
m-boota-fistd-normalg-starburst68152671425613145121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOStealth , 0 range and blades. Now we know where the dial came from that inspired the Indyclix set ;). With an 8 attack, he may not always slice through his target, and the Hydra TA may not see play with 0 range; still, this Ninja is a great bargain for his points and with his ability to potentially blade out 6 clicks of damage, cannot be easily ignored. A solid figure.

xp009 V Hand Ninja
Team: Hydra
Range: 8 :bolt:
Points: 16
Archenemy: Daredevil (Orange)
Keywords: Martial Artist, Spy, The Hand
m-boota-fistd-normalg-starburst68152671425613245121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOA great ranged/stealth sniper, particularly with a fellow Ninja Hydra TA buddies to boost up his starting AV to a solid 11. Watch out for flying ninja stars.

The great thing about the old ninja's were their cost efficiency. For a combined cost of 33 pts, you get a nice mix of stealth with close combat and sniping abilities.

But, someone along the line must have stepped up the Hand's boot camp training (and given them 401K's). The new Hand Ninja in HoT boasts a substantial cost increase, and an array of powers and special abilities that would make the fighting in The Matrix look like a dance routine from High School Musical.

The New Ninja:
http://hcrealms.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=672&pictureid=7748
ha003 R Hand Ninja
Team: Hydra
Range: 6 :bolt:
Points: 38
Keywords: Martial Artist, The Hand
m-boota-fistd-normalg-starburst89162781626815267141KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO(Damage ) From the Shadows: Once during your turn, if Hand Ninja occupies hindering terrain and has no action tokens, he can make a close combat attack as a free action.

The Hand Ninja has seen a bit of an upgrade from its Xplosion counterpart, and now cost more than both old Ninja's combined.These Ninjas are best as team players. Taxi them in on a map with plenty of hindering (or make your own), have your ranged attackers make use of the AV bump, and watch the Ninja's free action attack and blades go to town on the opposing team. However, in this article, the Ninja has to hot-foot it around solo, so automatically, the new Hand Ninja is taken down a belt.

This ninja is a much better attacker, with a 9 av. Stealth and blades isn't something new. But, it doesn't take away from its lethality. What's more, this ninja didn't forget his throwing knives at home, as it packs 6 range in as well.

Still, like any good member of the common horde, this guy isn't very long lived, with only 4 clicks of life. You don't want to push them, particularly off that first click, unless the benefits are plenty. The second click is fairly unimpressive, but after that, with new tricks like L/C and Supersenses, he may live long enough to either reposition or survive by dodging some arrows. This guy has clearly added some supplementation to his workout routine.

What's more significant is that we are seeing common generics at point costs greater than that of our super-powered heroes. In point of fact, the New Ninja costs more than some of the older Daredevils and nearly all of the Elektras. So, how does they stack up against the new ninja? Afterall, shouldn’t the head of the ninja clan be a bit better than it's own hand? Since, for just 5 points more, you could play the old E Critical Mass Daredevil:

Old Daredevil:
cm035 E Daredevil
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 4 :bolt:
Points: 43
Keywords: Martial Artist
m-boota-fistd-normalg-starburst891628815277152771416613166131KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOWe'll look at this lawyer over the IC E Daredevil primarily because the powers are a bit more congruent. Both the Ninja and Daredevil boast L/C, stealth and Supersenses, just at different points in their dials. Daredevil has more clicks of life, plus a nice Outwit surprise that might catch a ninja off-guard. But, the Ninja could theoretically get in a nice attack with blades, and spin DD right past outwit to KO. This Daredevil lacks any real damage capabilities and relies too heavily on Supersenses to stay in the fight.

Still, I think this battle would ultimately come down to SS's rolls, which could swing the battle either way. Perhaps this is an example where this isn't a case of power creep, rather than a good compliment of powers on either side.

Now, lets look at the old IC U Elektra,with the Hand Keyword, that is actually 2 points cheaper then the Hand Ninjas she commands.

Old Elektra:
ic144 U Elektra
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 4 :bolt::bolt:
Points: 36
Keywords: HYDRA, Martial Artist, The Hand, Warrior
m-boota-fistd-normalg-starburst81116271015279142781316712156121KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO 36 points buys you a whole lot of stealth and blades. Still, she has an impressive 11 attack going up against only a bare 16 defense, plus, 2 extra clicks of life, and more clicks of BCF's to takedown any Ninja's that might challenger her leadership. She has a better than average chance of getting that one-shot KO.

But, mostly her dial is pretty blank, which for the leader of the hand, is less inspiring than the colorful rainbow 2 pts more can buy you. To be fair, a battle between the two would probably come down to who hit who hardest with their BCF roll as the Ninja could still conceivably take her out. Still, one has to wonder how Elektra slacked off enough for the Hand Ninja's to outpoint-cost her. Maybe Bon-Bons and episodes of Lost?

True, the new HoT Daredevil and SI Elektra make great leaders for the new Hand ninja’s. But, that’s not the point. What has turned these otherwise extraordinary common ninja’s into Ninja Assassins? Did Daredevil amp their training? Have the Ninjas not listened to the dangers of steroid abuse? Or did someone dump a batch of Super Soldier Serum into the Hand’s water-cooler?

More importantly: When is Sam Cole (of the Hellfire Guard) and Bill (of Hydra) going to get the super-powered upgrade? (Their current health plan sucks!).

For Next Time: Can the common thug take down the Bat?

[Marshal Law]

To be fair, a battle between the two would probably come down to who hit who hardest with their BCF roll as the Ninja could still conceivably take her out. Still, one has to wonder how Elektra slacked off enough for the Hand Ninja's to outpoint-cost her.

No, you were pretty much spot on with the initial assessment. Rolling the BCF isn't likely to be a deciding factor. The IC Elektra would pretty much own the new Hand Ninja in anything other than a wide open OK Corral shootout. And maybe even then. 5+ to hit vs 7+ to hit is a big odds swing (unless I'm the one trying to roll the 5), giving the Ninja an almost even chance of missing if he does get the first crack, but Elektra a mere one in five of not pimp slapping a black mask.

And Elektra doesn't even have to bother with blades - just hit for 2 straight up, and unless the Ninja gets his Super Senses choreographed by the Wachowski brothers it should be over. On the other hand, the Ninja pretty much *has* to go the blades route if he gets a chance at a first hit. Trading 2 click punches still results in a dead ninja unless Super Senses kicks in - and this with allowing the Ninja the first hit.

2 points cheaper isn't slacking off, its being *efficient*. If that IC dial was slipped into a modern set for the same cost, the figure would rate a 4/5 in a heartbeat.

[Spidey1984]

can you use blades with the free attack

[CheeseWiz]

can you use blades with the free attack

No. BCF's requires a close combat action to activate. The Hand Ninja only grants a free close combat attack.

<snip> 5+ to hit vs 7+ to hit is a big odds swing (unless I'm the one trying to roll the 5), giving the Ninja an almost even chance of missing if he does get the first crack, but Elektra a mere one in five of not pimp slapping a black mask.
<Snip>.

You are of course, correct. Elektra is going to win most of the time. I only meant that it was possible for the Ninja to get a solid hit in and one-shot K.O. her. But, it certainly isn't probable. :)

[Marshal Law]

For Next Time: Can the common thug take down the Bat?

Almost forgot, not only possible, I've seen it happen. One of my first Clix games, with Hypertime pieces. 4 large teams going at it, and one player was sporting Bats (HT Rookie or Experienced) and a Swamp Thing (Rookie). Swarming his beat down tag team on an opponent's Joker, and proceeded to swing and miss. Repeatedly. Joker didn't exactly answer back in stellar fashion, but didn't do as horrible.

Meanwhile Joker's Criminal Vet side kick was 'ku-click BLAM! ku-click BLAM! ku-click BLAM!' every attack, while Bats remained with his thumbs snagged in the back of his utility belt and ol Peat Moss pushing well past Imperv in angry frustration trying to make up for lost time. Soon enough the Caped Crusader was plowing the pasture with his chin, and it was Swamp Thing's turn to face the 9mm wrath. By the time ol Holland spent his long dial making poor trades of punches to finally take out the cackling prankster, the fiesty convict soon after turned Swampy into compost.

[Jarimy123]

Eh, don't like comparing new figs to old ones. Comparing the old ninja to the new ninja is fine, but kind of pointless to compare the new hand ninja to an old daredevil. What's the point? We have a new daredevil, who completely wastes the new hand ninja, which makes total sense. So I fail to any point in trying to make the new hand ninja look like major power creep by comparing it to the old daredevil. Plus the article just sort of stopped. You are reading, thinking maybe this will eventually have a point to it, then the article is just over with. Leaves a lot to be desires, and hungry for pizza now.

[Marshal Law]

Leaves a lot to be desires, and hungry for pizza now.

Funny, doesn't take much of an excuse for me to crave pizza, but that's an interesting Pavlovian response you've managed to acquire.

"This article ain't going anywhere....wait? it's finished? just like that? what the.....oooohhh.....hmmmmm......pizza!"

[CheeseWiz]

Eh, don't like comparing new figs to old ones. Comparing the old ninja to the new ninja is fine, but kind of pointless to compare the new hand ninja to an old daredevil. What's the point? We have a new daredevil, who completely wastes the new hand ninja, which makes total sense. So I fail to any point in trying to make the new hand ninja look like major power creep by comparing it to the old daredevil. Plus the article just sort of stopped. You are reading, thinking maybe this will eventually have a point to it, then the article is just over with. Leaves a lot to be desires, and hungry for pizza now.

Save a slice for me! :)

I was simply showing that generics have moved up in cost. They are now more expensive to field than actual named superheroes of yesterday, i.e Daredevil and Elektra (the head of the Hand).

As for the ending, well, I had a hankering for pizza. :laugh:

[Fullmetalfreak94]

wait....if this is about ninjas.....why is there a cover to a wolverine comic?

EDIT: that cover makes sense to me.

[Seril]

I love the new ninjas (and the old ones) so very much. Makes me proud of this picture:

http://www.dorm.org/~seril/ninjas.jpg

[ibeatdrew]

I love the new ninjas (and the old ones) so very much. Makes me proud of this picture:

http://www.dorm.org/~seril/ninjas.jpg

very good. I have twice as many old xplosion ninjas but have had a hard time finding the new ones. Only got 3 of them right now.

[ibeatdrew]

I agree this would have made a better picture for the article:

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=95&pictureid=7802

Cheezwiz fel free to grab it and change it if you want.

[CheeseWiz]

Cheezwiz fel free to grab it and change it if you want.

Thanks! And Rep!

Originally, it was an article that was to cover several generics and their more modern counterparts, thus the original picture (I want new Hellfire Guards!)). I split the article up, with possibly more to come. We'll see.

Thanks again!

[larthosgrr8]

I love the new ninjas (and the old ones) so very much. Makes me proud of this picture:

http://www.dorm.org/~seril/ninjas.jpg

this makes me so jealous of you. i have like 30 of the old ones, but 4 of the new! i was even thinking of printing the new dial and putting them on the old bases!

[jak7890]

Well, a little rough around the edges, but not a bad start.

I think it's important to note that both the DD and Elektra of yore have 2 more clix of life than the modern generics. I think this is more indicative of a shift in heroclix's gaming philosophy than a power creep.

Back in the early sets the figures were designed to live long enough to make it to a medic, and this was considered playability when coupled with a decent starting click.

Now, it seems that the idea for playability is based around not needing to run to a medic after the first click. As such, we see shorter, stronger dials. While the Hand Ninja's effectiveness isn't immediately obvious after the first click (most of his points are sunk into his special power), this philosophy is very apparent in the Asgardian generics.

[psycho69]

great article.

one problem though. the only way to make the xpl ninja have an 11 attack at range would be to fire against a fig on elevated, a giant, a colossal or by using feats or support powers. the 3rd ninja (hydra fig) would block line of site otherwise.

Rob

[CheeseWiz]

<Snip>I think this is more indicative of a shift in heroclix's gaming philosophy than a power creep.
<Snip>

Clarification: I agree with this statement as far as I understand it. Look at the cheapest figure in HoT. No bystander tokens. Which makes Phanlanx solidier the cheapest non-named character. He is 31 pts! Here is what I beleive: in ye olde days, 31 pts could darn near get you a Named Super-hero. With SUPER POWERS (or super-abilities).

Case in point, the Hand Ninja is 38 pts. While he doesn't necessarily play better than a figure around his cost (that's evidence to me of no power creep), he now costs more than named characters of yesterday. That is evidence of a boost in Superpowers, and point cost creep, which I uncleverly named (and forgot the hyphen) Super-power creep.

It is a change in gaming philosophy.

For more evidence of this, read the continuation of this article in two weeks!

[jak7890]

*(snip)*

You're not wrong. I think we agree, but are seeing different things.

I guess my point was that the early heroclix were designed with survivability first in mind (see IC 30pt R Black Widow: 6 clix, terrible stats, two vanilla clix), while the newer ones seem to be designed around functionality until they die (see Phalanx soldier) which just happens sooner (only 4 clix, but all useful)

[CheeseWiz]

You're not wrong. I think we agree, but are seeing different things.

I guess my point was that the early heroclix were designed with survivability first in mind (see IC 30pt R Black Widow: 6 clix, terrible stats, two vanilla clix), while the newer ones seem to be designed around functionality until they die (see Phalanx soldier) which just happens sooner (only 4 clix, but all useful)

I think that the reason that this article wasn't as successful as I intended was because my hypothesis ran counter to the article's conclusion.

I believed that it was ridiculous that any non-powered generic should be 30+ points. It was my intent to show this. Somewhere between the first draft and what you've read, I learned that I was drawing the wrong conclusion, at least in this instance. The paradigm shift makes this 38pt Hand Ninja still function as a generic, most notably in it's short life and low defense. The Clix of old still have a good chance of taking him out, despite the similar point costs.

The other part of the article was to compare the 40pt Henchman LE from AA against the 44 and 47 pt Batmen from older sets (most of it is already written). It is still odd to me that we have non-powered generics in similar point cost to a named character, such as Batman. However, my second assessment is that Batman should be able to take the Henchman out. If this is true, then the Henchman still functions as a generic, despite the 40pt cost. Again, this runs counter to my original theory that this is a case of super-power creep where it doesn't belong.

Thanks for your great points Jak, have some rep :cool:

[IceHot]

Nice Article.

Some thoughts....

I really like the Vet and LE Elektras from Critical Miss...
Willpower should really help in a swarm match.

I often run The Mandarin alongside the Hand (presumably he worked with them in Heart of Darkness)

Other good Hand tie-ins...
Psylocke
Echo/Ronin

And also for just a few points...
The Thug pog from Avengers looks an awful lot like a Ninja.

[wintremute]

I only meant that it was possible for the Ninja to get a solid hit in and one-shot K.O. her. But, it certainly isn't probable. :)

I think that this is what is on the Hand Ninja flyer when they recruit, that you learn how to one-shot people for the KO.

[Marshal Law]

I love the new ninjas (and the old ones) so very much. Makes me proud of this picture (snip)

Your collection isn't complete until you've snagged several of the Universe set ninjas (no archenemy dial base, so you can pop the XP Elektra in with the team).

[Seril]

Your collection isn't complete until you've snagged several of the Universe set ninjas (no archenemy dial base, so you can pop the XP Elektra in with the team).


I have a few Universe ones - like 3 or 4. The venue I play at lets me field the 2 LE ninjas with the rest of them despite technically being arch-enemies. In friendly games no one really cared either.

[tom730]

this makes me so jealous of you. i have like 30 of the old ones, but 4 of the new! i was even thinking of printing the new dial and putting them on the old bases!

Wow, taking "print and play" to a whole new level!
That'll be cool for "fun games" at FGS, Tony!
And pretty cool!:grin:

[disciple1976]

Very interesting reading. :)

[Thirty]

Do you think the word "AttacK" at the end of the Hand Ninja's "From the Shadows" ability is worded incorrectly and should have said "action" instead?

Aren't close combat actions and close combat attacks the same thing?

Where I play it was judged that BCF triggers with Hypersonic speed, and that is a close combat attack as well.

[CheeseWiz]

Do you think the word "AttacK" at the end of the Hand Ninja's "From the Shadows" ability is worded incorrectly and should have said "action" instead?

Aren't close combat actions and close combat attacks the same thing?

Where I play it was judged that BCF triggers with Hypersonic speed, and that is a close combat attack as well.

Hi and welcome to the Realms!

If you and your group are new to the game, there are many great resources to be had. Firstly, pick up a copy of the Fantastic Four Starter set rules, which is also located here under the "units" section. It has the current rules, and will explain all about the different types of actions and attacks you can do.

For example, you couldn't use BCF with hss speed. HSS allows a free ranged or close combat ATTACk as a free action. BCF requires that a close combat ACTION (like charge) be given to activate.

Hope that helps!

[Thirty]

Thanks. Right after posting I took a trip to the Rules forum and did a little research. Things are pretty smooth.

A Heroclix judge has been telling us for years that you could combine HSS + BCF. Good grief, this judge has it all wrong.