Wildcards and syn syndicate/defenders

[sinistersex]

I need a refresher on this, since I had heard an errata had made wildcards less efficient. How exactly do these work again?

If I have a syndicate member on the board, and 2 wildcards adjacent elsewhere on the board--one with an 11 attack, one with a 9--can they copy the TA, and both have 11's? or does one of them need to have the actual TA? please explain....I thought I heard the sharing only went one way....

[Harpua]

I need a refresher on this, since I had heard an errata had made wildcards less efficient. How exactly do these work again?

If I have a syndicate member on the board, and 2 wildcards adjacent elsewhere on the board--one with an 11 attack, one with a 9--can they copy the TA, and both have 11's? or does one of them need to have the actual TA? please explain....I thought I heard the sharing only went one way....

To give a defense, you need to have the symbol, as per the PAC.

[Tarnish]

With the new wording on all the stat sharing TAs wildcards can only "Borrow" and not "lend".

So one Wildcard can't Lend out to another Wildcard (or any other) fig. It takes figure with the actual Team Ability to give it out to another figure.

Tarnish

[Tarnish]

To give a defense, you need to have the symbol, as per the PAC.

I knew you would beat me to it even as I was typing :p

Tarnish

[Harpua]

I knew you would beat me to it even as I was typing :p

Tarnish

Actually, my answer was a little misleading. You need to POSSESS the TA in order to lend it. You definitely possess it with the symbol, but a WC can possess it through the Loyalty BFC.

[Maraud]

Actually, my answer was a little misleading. You need to POSSESS the TA in order to lend it. You definitely possess it with the symbol, but a WC can possess it through the Loyalty BFC.

or though T-bolt.

[normalview]

or though T-bolt.

Just to clarify, he means that an Avenger with the T-Bolt feat possesses the TA. There is no way for T-bolts and Wildcards to interact, though, since wildcards can't copy ATAs.

I know that's what you meant, Maraud, but that simple statement could be taken out of context in a thread about wildcards. Just wanted to nip any discussion about that in the bud before it started.

[Harpua]

Just to clarify, he means that an Avenger with the T-Bolt feat possesses the TA. There is no way for T-bolts and Wildcards to interact, though, since wildcards can't copy ATAs.

I know that's what you meant, Maraud, but that simple statement could be taken out of context in a thread about wildcards. Just wanted to nip any discussion about that in the bud before it started.

Well, if there is a natural Defender, a WC can copy the TA from it and get the defense from a T-Bolt.

[Quebbster]

Just to clarify, he means that an Avenger with the T-Bolt feat possesses the TA. There is no way for T-bolts and Wildcards to interact directly, though, since wildcards can't copy ATAs.
Fixed it for you.
I'll clarify with an example: Say we have an Avengers theme team consisting of SI Namor (Defenders TA), HoT Captain America (Avengers TA) equipped with T-bolts to get the Defenders TA, and SI Spider-Man (Spider-Man TA).
In this case Spider-Man cannot copy Cap's Thunderbolted Defenders TA, but he CAN copy Namor's natural Defenders TA and use it to receive Cap's defense value.

[normalview]

Well, if there is a natural Defender, a WC can copy the TA from it and get the defense from a T-Bolt.

But the wildcards still isn't copying the ATA. My point stands :p ;)

Fixed it for you.
I'll clarify with an example: Say we have an Avengers theme team consisting of SI Namor (Defenders TA), HoT Captain America (Avengers TA) equipped with T-bolts to get the Defenders TA, and SI Spider-Man (Spider-Man TA).
In this case Spider-Man cannot copy Cap's Thunderbolted Defenders TA, but he CAN copy Namor's natural Defenders TA and use it to receive Cap's defense value.

Yes, much better :)

[Quebbster]

Yes, much better :)
Seems like it was a good call to appoint three deputies. :)

[KillerSavage]

I think for defenders/jsa batman enemy/sinister syndicate you need adjacency for them to work. You can't just keep a figure with jsa ta in the corner while two wild cards go running across the map sharing each others defense. The jsa has to be adjacent to them for it to work now.

I think this was more the question the op was asking.

[Maraud]

I think for defenders/jsa batman enemy/sinister syndicate you need adjacency for them to work. You can't just keep a figure with jsa ta in the corner while two wild cards go running across the map sharing each others defense. The jsa has to be adjacent to them for it to work now.

I think this was more the question the op was asking.

yes they need to be adjacent for them to share the Values but not to copy the TA.

meaning that if you are running one Defender and 4 WC's and T-bolt an Avenger to Defender then the Defender can stay back and allow the T-bolt to share his Def Value to the other WC's.
This way they do not kill the Defender and weaken the whole team.

[geo701]

Can u tell me where you got this info no one belives me not even my judge?

[Maraud]

Can u tell me where you got this info no one belives me not even my judge?

The PAC card.
Defenders TA
"Before any attack roll, a character using the Defenders team ability can
for the attack replace its defense value with the unmodified defense value (including a replacement
defense value) of any adjacent friendly character possessing the Defenders team ability."

the underlined part shows how can borrow values.
the bold part shows who can share the value.

[Surfer13]

Yeah, the difference between using and possessing.

Wildcards use, but they do not possess.

[sinistersex]

after a value is replaced, can it be modified?

does the Defend power get treated the same, in regards to replacement and modification? like Dr. Strange sharing his 18 defense...can he then perplex up an adjacent figure's defense higher than 18 after first sharing it?

[normalview]

after a value is replaced, can it be modified?

Sure, but the timing has got to be right. Not just any old modifier actually modifies after a replacement value is applied.

does the Defend power get treated the same, in regards to replacement and modification? like Dr. Strange sharing his 18 defense...can he then perplex up an adjacent figure's defense higher than 18 after first sharing it?

No, not in this specific instance. Defend (and Defenders, JSA, etc) all replace the defense value when the character is attacked. Perplex can not be applied during an attack; the Perplex action can't be used in the middle of another action. So you Perplex the DV before hand, but then the character is attacked and the Defend activates, completely replacing the old, modified value.

Now, if you take the same situation, but are using a modifier that also activates at the time of the attack (like ES/D, Combat Reflexes, or hindering terrain modifier to ranged attacks), then sure, you'd replace the DV with Defend and then apply the modifier.

[sinistersex]

thanks so much for the clarification!

but, one more thing: since Defenders and Defend kick in at the time of being attacked, how would Syndicate differ since it is an attacker instead? would the attack value be replaced, and would it leave timing open for perplexing that value up even more?

endless thanks....

[Eargosedown]

thanks so much for the clarification!

but, one more thing: since Defenders and Defend kick in at the time of being attacked, how would Syndicate differ since it is an attacker instead? would the attack value be replaced, and would it leave timing open for perplexing that value up even more?

endless thanks....

No, there wouldn't be time for perplex.

Other triggers could still happen though that modify attack (much like ES/D modifies defense.) Off the top of my head, I believe hawkeye from avengers has an ability that gives +2 to attack. Also, Star-lords ability should trigger if targeting 1 opposing character.

edit: except star-lord, afaik, can never be involved in sinister syndicate sharing. Hawkeye under T-bolt could however.

edit edit: Yes, using Avengers Hawkeye's Sharpshooter ability should allow for a +2 modification post-replacement:
SHARPSHOOTER: Give Hawkeye a power action to make a ranged combat attack. Modify his attack value by +2 for the attack.

[normalview]

No, there wouldn't be time for perplex.

Other triggers could still happen though that modify attack (much like ES/D modifies defense.) Off the top of my head, I believe hawkeye from avengers has an ability that gives +2 to attack. Also, Star-lords ability should trigger if targeting 1 opposing character.

edit: except star-lord, afaik, can never be involved in sinister syndicate sharing. Hawkeye under T-bolt could however.

edit edit: Yes, using Avengers Hawkeye's Sharpshooter ability should allow for a +2 modification post-replacement:

There are much easier ways than that (these are all still valid... just a little complicated).

HYDRA/PD bonus to ranged attack could modify replaced AVs.

Wildcard transporters (like SN Spidey or MU Cloak and Dagger) could replace their AV and then have it modified negatively by Move and Attack ability.

Many feats modify AV (like Haymaker or Pounce) when attacking, too.

[Eargosedown]

There are much easier ways than that (these are all still valid... just a little complicated).

HYDRA/PD bonus to ranged attack could modify replaced AVs.

Wildcard transporters (like SN Spidey or MU Cloak and Dagger) could replace their AV and then have it modified negatively by Move and Attack ability.

Many feats modify AV (like Haymaker or Pounce) when attacking, too.

Now see, if wasn't sick as a dog I'd have thought of any of these =P
Good catch!

[doctor_x]

So if I have a SR Jarvis T-bolted to Defenders-he could use Skymax's Defenders TA to share Skymax's defense?

[normalview]

So if I have a SR Jarvis T-bolted to Defenders-he could use Skymax's Defenders TA to share Skymax's defense?

Correct. Jarvis, because of Thunderbolts, possesses the Defenders team ability. In this case, because of that possession, Jarvis could even loan out DVs (unlike wildcards that can only use the TA).

[KillerSavage]

Correct. Jarvis, because of Thunderbolts, possesses the Defenders team ability. In this case, because of that possession, Jarvis could even loan out DVs (unlike wildcards that can only use the TA).
Now I'm pretty sure that wildcards don't work as a chain themselves. This makes it sound like they can't even be part of a chain.

[normalview]

Now I'm pretty sure that wildcards don't work as a chain themselves. This makes it sound like they can't even be part of a chain.

Define "part of the chain".

They can be the end of a long chain, sure, since they can borrow combat values from Defenders/JSA/SinSyn/Batman Enemy/etc.

But if they are somewhere in the middle of the chain, then that isn't going to work (since they can only borrow and not lend).

[blueboyscout]

How about mercenary... a mercenari-ed character can use or posses the team simbol? can an icons flash defend some defenders?

[normalview]

How about mercenary... a mercenari-ed character can use or posses the team simbol? can an icons flash defend some defenders?

Checking the Mercenary wording (noting a trend here? :p ;)) reveals:

MERCENARY

Prerequisites: No team symbol

Choose a character.

Before the beginning of the game's first turn, choose a team ability possessed by a friendly character. The friendly character cannot be a wild card, and cannot possess a team ability that cannot be used by wild cards or possess a team ability that is granted by a feat. The character can use the chosen team ability when adjacent to a friendly character with that team ability and a higher point value.

*Minus 5 for each friendly character with the chosen team ability, minimum cost 10.



"Use" not "possess". A Merc'd character would be under the same restrictions as a wildcard when it comes to things like Defenders.

[KillerSavage]

Define "part of the chain".

They can be the end of a long chain, sure, since they can borrow combat values from Defenders/JSA/SinSyn/Batman Enemy/etc.

But if they are somewhere in the middle of the chain, then that isn't going to work (since they can only borrow and not lend).
Yeah that is what I meant by part. Alternating jsa and wildcard won't work then. That's good to know. I thought maybe it did.

I knew I didn't like the change to wildcards. Now I like it even less.

[normalview]

Yeah that is what I meant by part. Alternating jsa and wildcard won't work then. That's good to know. I thought maybe it did.

I knew I didn't like the change to wildcards. Now I like it even less.

You could still sort of pull off this trick if the wildcard had Defend (like Positron, Shadow Lass, Ultron-13, etc.).

They could copy Defenders or JSA to gain a high DV and then share that DV with their Defend power. Very specific and situational, but it could happen... plus, the characters they loan out a DV to wouldn't even have to use the TA (since Defend can be used by all adjacent friendly characters).

[Cap Cheesesteak]

The new wording changes the wildcard effect on this, right?
SINISTER SYNDICATE Characters using the Sinister Syndicate team
ability may replace their attack value with the unmodified attack value of an
adjacent friendly character using the Sinister Syndicate team ability.
The wildcard now can loan out their AV, right? Or are the new TA's not even considered legal yet?

thanks in advance as always.

[mbstoner]

The new wording changes the wildcard effect on this, right?

The wildcard now can loan out their AV, right? Or are the new TA's not even considered legal yet?

thanks in advance as always.

Yes, wild cards can share attack values with Sinister Syndicate (and Bat Enemy), but it's not really new. It's been worded this way since Blackest Night and the last few PG's.

BATMAN ENEMY: Characters using the Batman Enemy team ability can replace their attack value with the unmodified attack value of an adjacent friendly character using the Batman Enemy team ability

SINISTER SYNDICATE
Characters using the Sinister Syndicate team ability can
replace their attack value with the unmodified attack value of
an adjacent friendly character using the Sinister Syndicate
team ability

The only real difference is replacing "can" with "may" making the replacement optional, when before it, technically, wasn't.

[Cap Cheesesteak]

Awesome. Thanks

[mbstoner]

Awesome. Thanks

No problem. Although, I didn't notice it before, this is a 2+ year old thread and any information in it has been out of date for a while, which explains some of your confusion. Generally speaking, if a thread is this old, you're better off creating a new thread than reviving the old one.