Frog hunting.

[Dr. Z]

Okay, so I built a team around Thor, Frog of Thunder with Tempest and Triton, submerged on Tempest, and armor piercing on Thor and Triton.

My friends now hate me. :(

So in the interest of finding out how to bust this team up I have a few questions.

Water terrain seems to be the major terrain loophole, from all I've been able to search the relevant threads on it, Smokey Feet Cap seems to be the only figure that is able to see any of these characters at range given the Submerged feet or special powers; because water terrain is water terrain, NOT hindering terrain.

So the obvious answer is to charge in there, but you need either flying charge or charge with :m-dolphin: to get in there and not be stopped by Tempest's wading pool. then you get met by all that nice 'poison-esque' direct damage from Thor and Triton.

So howbout this, is this legal:
Could I use a dumpster/generator special 3D object on one of the three in a close combat attack and place the object UNDERNEATH an adjacent opposing character after the attack? Conversely, could I TK an object so that I place it UNDERNEATH one of the three? the purpose being to pop them up out of the water and allow me to draw line of site and attack at range.

I've checked the rule book and it seems ambiguous to me, sure I can't draw line of fire to Tempest with submerged, but does that prevent me from placing an object on the square he occupies?

Certainly I could Smoke Cloud their squares for the same effect as well. (suddenly got the urge to listen to Deep Purple, btw).

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

[normalview]

Water terrain seems to be the major terrain loophole, from all I've been able to search the relevant threads on it, Smokey Feet Cap seems to be the only figure that is able to see any of these characters at range given the Submerged feet or special powers; because water terrain is water terrain, NOT hindering terrain.

While you are correct that things like Ultimates TA and most other common Stealth busting tricks won't work (since they rely on getting around the hindering terrain), you are forgetting the grand-daddy of them all...

Pulse Wave.

A Pulse Waver or 5 will eat that team for lunch.

So the obvious answer is to charge in there, but you need either flying charge or charge with :m-dolphin: to get in there and not be stopped by Tempest's wading pool. then you get met by all that nice 'poison-esque' direct damage from Thor and Triton.

Not necessarily. Water is hindering terrain for movement, so a Charging Ultimate Cap or Thing with Unstoppable could roll right on up to them, too.

Also, the damage from Thor and Triton is simple damage dealt. This means Toughness and the like will soak it up, no problem.

So howbout this, is this legal:
Could I use a dumpster/generator special 3D object on one of the three in a close combat attack and place the object UNDERNEATH an adjacent opposing character after the attack? Conversely, could I TK an object so that I place it UNDERNEATH one of the three? the purpose being to pop them up out of the water and allow me to draw line of site and attack at range.

I've checked the rule book and it seems ambiguous to me, sure I can't draw line of fire to Tempest with submerged, but does that prevent me from placing an object on the square he occupies?

Certainly I could Smoke Cloud their squares for the same effect as well. (suddenly got the urge to listen to Deep Purple, btw).

Won't work. While the objects and Smoke Clouds would indeed make the squares hindering terrain, there is nothing that says that they can't also be water terrain. So all you have done now is give them a +1 bonus to DV when you try to shoot them with Pulse Wave ;)


Oh, and if your friends have access to the SI chase Susan Richards, her TO THE NEGATIVE ZONE SP allows her to ignore all terrain when making a ranged combat attack... including water.

[Harpua]

Won't work. While the objects and Smoke Clouds would indeed make the squares hindering terrain, there is nothing that says that they can't also be water terrain. So all you have done now is give them a +1 bonus to DV when you try to shoot them with Pulse Wave ;)
In general you would be correct, but this water terrain is created by Tempest's SP.


"Summon the Elements: Tempest can use Charge. Clear
grounded terrain 3 or fewer squares from Tempest that does
not contain objects, terrain markers, or debris tokens is water
terrain."

Once the object is there, it ceases to be clear grounded terrain and also ceases to be water.

[normalview]

In general you would be correct, but this water terrain is created by Tempest's SP.


"Summon the Elements: Tempest can use Charge. Clear
grounded terrain 3 or fewer squares from Tempest that does
not contain objects, terrain markers, or debris tokens is water
terrain."

Once the object is there, it ceases to be clear grounded terrain and also ceases to be water.

I wasn't really thinking of Tempest when I posted... just water terrain in general.

Honestly, if I was really facing this team, one of the first things I'd do is separate (via KO, Force Blast, TK, whatever is necessary) Tempest from that group. They become much more managable then.

[Smudge]

the damage from Thor and Triton is simple damage dealt. This means Toughness and the like will soak it up, no problem.

He did mention that he has Thor and Triton feated with Armor Piercing...

Oh, and if your friends have access to the SI chase Susan Richards, her TO THE NEGATIVE ZONE SP allows her to ignore all terrain when making a ranged combat attack... including water.

This is my favorite solution to problems like this.

[Jarimy123]

When you drop an object doesn't it get dropped in the square the character making the attacker is occupying?

[normalview]

When you drop an object doesn't it get dropped in the square the character making the attack is occupying?

Only if the character loses Super Strength.

Objects like the dumpster, however, are placed in a square adjacent to the target of the attack (attacker's choice) after they are used in an attack. This doesn't have to be the same square as the attacker (though it could be).

[Jarimy123]

Word. That in the player's guide by chance? Or where is that found? I believe you 100%, just want a referrence for myself for future. I knew that if they lost SS they dropped it in their square, I didn't realize dumpster you place in a square adjacent to the target - mainly because the dumpster is usually used with a HSS brick and just picks it right back up.

[normalview]

He did mention that he has Thor and Triton feated with Armor Piercing...

True... but then that is 20 points they've spent on a feat I don't think is really necessary. Given the short dial of all three (7 clicks max), this team can't take too much damage; I'd rather be packing Protected.



This is my favorite solution to problems like this.

But only if you are either really lucky (and pulled one) or willing to spend serious cash. Most players do not have her available.

[Harpua]

Actually, you can't place it under the target.

"DUMPSTER†
Heavy: This object is not destroyed when used in an attack.
The attacker places it in any square adjacent to the target
after use."

[normalview]

Word. That in the player's guide by chance? Or where is that found? I believe you 100%, just want a referrence for myself for future. I knew that if they lost SS they dropped it in their square, I didn't realize dumpster you place in a square adjacent to the target - mainly because the dumpster is usually used with a HSS brick and just picks it right back up.

Yes, the descriptions are in the player's guide.

[normalview]

Actually, you can't place it under the target.

"DUMPSTER†
Heavy: This object is not destroyed when used in an attack.
The attacker places it in any square adjacent to the target
after use."

I never said you could:

Only if the character loses Super Strength.

Objects like the dumpster, however, are placed in a square adjacent to the target of the attack (attacker's choice) after they are used in an attack. This doesn't have to be the same square as the attacker(though it could be).

[Harpua]

I never said you could:

Read it backwards. My bad.

[WolvieFan9]

And you could TK the object into the square you want to become non-water terrain too, right?

You could also TK your brick -- The Thing carrying a soda machine, for example -- into that square as well. Yep, it's hindering terrain for movement, but just use TK to place your brick next to Tempest to blast with a heavy.

And Thor and Triton have Armor Piercing for their Poison-y powers... okay, but I'd send Thing in there knowing I wasn't getting him back -- but he can create some serious damage before he goes down.

(You can also Carry your brick with a flyer and place them in the water terrain next to the target... your brick can't have an object -- so choose someone with CCE -- and you can't act that turn, but that's okay... the right brick can take a couple of clicks of Poison damage and then smash the heck out of Tempest.)

I do like the "get rid of Tempest" idea -- use the new Penance's ranged Force Blast power to throw Tempest away from his buddies, then smack them with sledgehammers when their water terrain goes away.

[Smudge]

True... but then that is 20 points they've spent on a feat I don't think is really necessary. Given the short dial of all three (7 clicks max), this team can't take too much damage; I'd rather be packing Protected.

I was just responding to this:
the damage from Thor and Triton is simple damage dealt. This means Toughness and the like will soak it up, no problem.


But only if you are either really lucky (and pulled one) or willing to spend serious cash. Most players do not have her available.

All the more reason to play her when given the chance.

[Dr. Z]

Actually, you can't place it under the target.

"DUMPSTER†
Heavy: This object is not destroyed when used in an attack.
The attacker places it in any square adjacent to the target
after use."

Right on there Harpua, no confusion about that, but what if I use a dumpster on Froggy Thor and Tempest is adjacent to him, can I place the dumpster under Tempest after the attack? Does the dumpster have to be placed anywhere adjacent or must it go on an unoccupied square?

I had not considered the Susan Richards option. No one i know has one, but if one turns up....

[Generation_Omega]

I do like the "get rid of Tempest" idea -- use the new Penance's ranged Force Blast power to throw Tempest away from his buddies, then smack them with sledgehammers when their water terrain goes away.

Won't work if he's got Submerged on Tempest and he's occupying water terrain. Penance needs line of fire and with Submerged, LOF is blocked.

[Maraud]

And you could TK the object into the square you want to become non-water terrain too, right?

You could also TK your brick -- The Thing carrying a soda machine, for example -- into that square as well. Yep, it's hindering terrain for movement, but just use TK to place your brick next to Tempest to blast with a heavy.

And Thor and Triton have Armor Piercing for their Poison-y powers... okay, but I'd send Thing in there knowing I wasn't getting him back -- but he can create some serious damage before he goes down.

(You can also Carry your brick with a flyer and place them in the water terrain next to the target... your brick can't have an object -- so choose someone with CCE -- and you can't act that turn, but that's okay... the right brick can take a couple of clicks of Poison damage and then smash the heck out of Tempest.)

I do like the "get rid of Tempest" idea -- use the new Penance's ranged Force Blast power to throw Tempest away from his buddies, then smack them with sledgehammers when their water terrain goes away.

if you were trying to TK an object under an opposing figure it would take 2 Tk's. The first turn it would stop adjacent to the figure then the other to move it under the figure.



Also would not submerged fall under the same ruling as camouflage?
• Although Susan Richards ignores terrain for her ranged
attacks when she uses To the Negative Zone, characters can
still use terrain for the attack. For example, a character with
Camouflage would still have lines of fire to it blocked.

[Generation_Omega]

if you were trying to TK an object under an opposing figure it would take 2 Tk's. The first turn it would stop adjacent to the figure then the other to move it under the figure.

Why would it? The object isn't a character.

[MuskieLodge]

You wanna get around all of this water terrain without hassle, without a team of specialized figures? I got two words for you lot...

Astral Plane

All terrain becomes clear terrain for movement purposes. After that, it becomes a simple matter of Charging around and busting up the bad guys.

Muskie

[Maraud]

Why would it? The object isn't a character.

Objects and Telekinesis
Characters that can use the Telekinesis power can move objects and
characters from a distance; they can also use objects as weapons (the
following description supplements the Telekinesis entry on the Powers and
Abilities card).
Moving objects and characters using Telekinesis
(options 1 and 2). To move a target object or character using
Telekinesis, the character using Telekinesis must be 8 or fewer squares from
the target and have a clear line of fire to the target. When Telekinesis is
used to move the target, it can be moved 8 squares in any direction but
must end its movement in a square 8 or fewer squares from the character
using Telekinesis, and the character using Telekinesis must have a clear line
of fire to the square where the movement ends, as shown in Figure 19.
The target being moved does not affect the line of fire. If the target is a
friendly character, it must break away from opposing characters before it
can be moved. If the target moves into a square adjacent to an opposing
character, it must stop its movement; if this would result in the target
character ending its movement in a square not allowed by the rules of
Telekinesis, it must be moved to a different square if possible or end its
movement in the square where it began its movement. A friendly character
that has been moved using Telekinesis can’t use Telekinesis to move other
characters until the beginning of your next turn.

[Dr. Z]

Hmmm, Maraud, the sentence just before the one you underlined specifically states that it and the rest of the text entry for TK applies to friendly characters. The ruling under question here is one regarding how Submerged, and 'Submerged-like' special powers affects line of site/line of fire.

Related topic thread|:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=267460
but as has been determined, Submerged IS NOT stealth, and thus behaves just a little differently. (eg. Smokey feet Cap can range attack, but Ultimates Cap cannot|)

Submerged (Icons)

Prerequisites: {dolphin}

Choose a character.

(optional) When the character occupies water terrain, lines of fire drawn to it are blocked.

So when I TK an object simply to move it, and I draw LOF to a Submerged characters square, is LOF blocked by the character or can I place the object underneath them?

[WolvieFan9]

Won't work if he's got Submerged on Tempest and he's occupying water terrain. Penance needs line of fire and with Submerged, LOF is blocked.

You're right, I couldn't see his special power at work.

[Maraud]

Hmmm, Maraud, the sentence just before the one you underlined specifically states that it and the rest of the text entry for TK applies to friendly characters. The ruling under question here is one regarding how Submerged, and 'Submerged-like' special powers affects line of site/line of fire.

Related topic thread|:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=267460
but as has been determined, Submerged IS NOT stealth, and thus behaves just a little differently. (eg. Smokey feet Cap can range attack, but Ultimates Cap cannot|)

Submerged (Icons)

Prerequisites: {dolphin}

Choose a character.

(optional) When the character occupies water terrain, lines of fire drawn to it are blocked.

So when I TK an object simply to move it, and I draw LOF to a Submerged characters square, is LOF blocked by the character or can I place the object underneath them?

actually if you read it it says
"To move a target object or character using
Telekinesis, the character using Telekinesis must be 8 or fewer squares from the target and have a clear line of fire to the target."

seems that it is for both character and objects.
So as stated before when TK'ing an object not part of an attack it would stop when adjacent to an opposing figure.

and was in response to Generation_Omega question about TK and people talking about TK'ing objects under people.

[Generation_Omega]

Objects and Telekinesis
Characters that can use the Telekinesis power can move objects and
characters from a distance; they can also use objects as weapons (the
following description supplements the Telekinesis entry on the Powers and
Abilities card).
Moving objects and characters using Telekinesis
(options 1 and 2). To move a target object or character using
Telekinesis, the character using Telekinesis must be 8 or fewer squares from
the target and have a clear line of fire to the target. When Telekinesis is
used to move the target, it can be moved 8 squares in any direction but
must end its movement in a square 8 or fewer squares from the character
using Telekinesis, and the character using Telekinesis must have a clear line
of fire to the square where the movement ends, as shown in Figure 19.
The target being moved does not affect the line of fire. If the target is a
friendly character, it must break away from opposing characters before it
can be moved. If the target moves into a square adjacent to an opposing
character, it must stop its movement; if this would result in the target
character ending its movement in a square not allowed by the rules of
Telekinesis, it must be moved to a different square if possible or end its
movement in the square where it began its movement. A friendly character
that has been moved using Telekinesis can’t use Telekinesis to move other
characters until the beginning of your next turn.

The sentence before and the part of the sentence after the part you underlined is only referring to a friendly character.

[Maraud]

The sentence before and the part of the sentence after the part you underlined is only referring to a friendly character.

if you want to hear it from a Deputy then just check out this link

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=267460

[The_Sound_Of_Animals]

BFC Earthquake, BFC Astral Plane, Pulse Wavers, Maneuvering Kid Flash, or TK a four damage figure in to bash Tempest... a lunging charging Bronze Tiger will even take care of this

[Dr. Z]

Huh. Maraud, I see what you are saying now, I guess. I will surely accept the possibility that TK is poorly worded, because I do not get that from reading the text of the power, and quite frankly it seems counter intuitive. But if that is the ruling, then that is the ruling. I would never consider a dumpster or other such object to have its 'own' movement, which is what the text seems to imply. By this rationale, would I have to roll breakaway when using super strength to pick up an object adjacent to an opposing character? I know the answer is no, but just follow my logic here. It would seem simpler and more representative of TK powers to just let TKers move objects freely. Then again, having to roll breakaway for friendly characters being TK'd makes no sense either. Maybe its just a game balance thing?

Eh, speculation. If it can't be done, it can't be done. Thanks.

[DerbyLembeck]

Re: the OPs suggestion to use Smokey Feet Cap.

Triton's SP is worded just a bit differently:
AQUATIC SCOUT: Triton can use Charge. When Triton occupies water terrain, any line of fire drawn to him that crosses any square of that water terrain is treated as though it crosses blocking terrain.DEFLECTION TRAJECTORY: Captain America's line of fire is blocked only by walls and indoor blocking terrain.If this aquatic trio is indoors, even Cap won't be able to draw a line of fire to Triton.

[normalview]

Huh. Maraud, I see what you are saying now, I guess. I will surely accept the possibility that TK is poorly worded, because I do not get that from reading the text of the power, and quite frankly it seems counter intuitive. But if that is the ruling, then that is the ruling. I would never consider a dumpster or other such object to have its 'own' movement, which is what the text seems to imply. By this rationale, would I have to roll breakaway when using super strength to pick up an object adjacent to an opposing character? I know the answer is no, but just follow my logic here. It would seem simpler and more representative of TK powers to just let TKers move objects freely. Then again, having to roll breakaway for friendly characters being TK'd makes no sense either. Maybe its just a game balance thing?

Eh, speculation. If it can't be done, it can't be done. Thanks.

Super Strength is irrelevant. And objects don't have their "own" movement, as you put it (unless you are playing Arcade).

It is simply that when moving objects with Telekinesis there are some special rules.

[Dr. Z]

Got some good options here. I completely forgot about Astral Plane and good find on Triton's SP trumping Cap's SP indoors!

Looking at a couple other figures I found that Big Barda +Mr. Miracle duo, and Robin can use their barrier/smoke cloud special powers to make close combat attacks (or use incapacitate with Robin) essentially at range.

But still need to know, understanding the ruling on TKing objects, adjacency, and all that. Can I TK an object to the same square as a Submerged in water terrain? I realize I have to stop my object to do it twice, and you can do it to a stealthed figure in hindering but what about with Submerged?

Thanks, keep 'em coming!

[Maraud]

But still need to know, understanding the ruling on TKing objects, adjacency, and all that. Can I TK an object to the same square as a Submerged in water terrain? I realize I have to stop my object to do it twice, and you can do it to a stealthed figure in hindering but what about with Submerged?

Thanks, keep 'em coming!

yes you can your are drawing a LoF to the square not the figure that is in the square.