Wild Card abilities

[admironheart]

Hey all,

Just so I get a grasp on the Wild Card abilities.

Just how does it work?

It seems a lot of folks out there have a wild card merry go round from the sound of it.

Do you pick something at the beginning of the turn?
Do you pick when at any point and then have to keep said ability till your next turn?
And if so I assume at the beginning of the new turn it is gone unless chosen again.
Or
Do you get one team ability for your turn and then could change it on your opponent's turn, etc.

Just what is the order of play?
thanks
wes

[HeroComplex]

The only restriction on wildcard abilities is that you a single figure may not use multiple team abilities at once.

An example of a legal use:Doombot uses the Brotherhood ability to move adjacent to two friendly figures, one of whom is Sinister Syndicate and the other of whom is Superman Enemy. This does not take an action.

The Superman Enemy figure wishes to attack, and so the Doombot becomes a Hydra figure to boost the attack value.

The Sinister Syndicate figure attacks, and so the Doombot becomes a Sinister Syndicate member to lend his attack value to his teammate.

Before declaring an end to his turn, the player declares his Doombot to be a member of the Superman Enemy team, thereby getting him the Outwit power because he is adjacent to another member of the team (of lower point value). He Outwits an opponent's Ranged Combat Expert and ends his turn.

All of that can be done in a single turn with a single figure, because each use is clearly separate from the others. What the Doombot cannot do is be a part of the Hydra team and Sinister Syndicate teams at the same time to try and grant two different bonuses to the same attack.

[CyberVenom]

But the MoD's powers must come from teammates, correct?

For example, he couldn't use the Brotherhood ability unless a member of the Brotherhood was on the same team.

[ShortyNoGood]

Correct

[HeroComplex]

Yes. This is all assuming there are figures with the appropriate team affiliations friendly to the Doombot.

[Funky Jett]

One last thing... for the Outwit to last, the Doombot must remain a Superman Enemy during your opponent's entire turn. If the Doombot changed team abilities (say to become a Skrull to avoid an attack), he would lose the Outwit and your opponent's RCE would come back.

[firstfederal]

So, assuming I have enough friendly figures in play...

If I have 2 Doombots, One can taxi the other out using his Avengers Team Ability to get a Free Move. They stop on hindering terrain and have Stealth because they have the Batman Ally ability. They can use their Superman Enemy Team Ability to Outwit an opponents defense, use the highest attack value using the Sinister Syndicate Team Ability, and the Hydra Team Ability to add a +1 to hit.

After the attack, the opponent gets his turn and hits some how getting past their Defender Team Ability. The Doombot rolls using the Skrull defense and fails. I decide to go ahead and not use the XMen Team Ability to shift the damage from one Doombot to the other. And when he gets toasted the other gets a click of health using the Fantastic Four Team Ability.

And, RCE unbalances the game?

Bill

[HeroComplex]

You actually can't do all of that. There are instances in your example of multiple team abilities being used at the same time. Once the Outwit has been used, if either Doombot uses another team ability the Outwit fades immediately and the Outwitted power returns. They also cannot use Hydra and SS simultaneously to double-boost the attack value being used in an attack. Using the FF ability after being KOed from using the X-Men ability isn't allowed, either.

And just in strict rules terms---even a figure on the Superman Ally team cannot use Outwit against a Stealth/BatAlly figure in hindering terrain. Shape Change and the Skrull ability are used before the attack is rolled, not after. And of course the X-Men ability can't be used on your opponent's turn, if that was being implied.

If you still think it is unbalancing, however, then add up all the point which would be required to get all those team abilities. After doing that, realize that basing an entire team around wildcard support has flaws. If the wildcards are Doombots, then they are fairly easy to take out with any big bruiser, and if the wildcard is someone like Ultron then it will probably be reasonably straightforward to snipe off his team-ability support figures while the only heavy figure can only act safely every other turn.

[maveric28]

What if you Mind Control an opposing figure? Could you then use a Wild Card team member to imitate the Mind Controlled figure's team ability? Likewise, if you Mind Control a Wild Card team member (like Minions of Doom, or Spider-Man Ally), can that Mind Control victim use one of your team abilities for his Mind Control action?

Also, while I'm thinking about it, if you Mind Control a character to attack one of his own (former) teammates, who rolls for the attack? You (the Mind Controller) or your opponent?

[HeroComplex]

After a successful MC, the victim is considered a member of your team for all intents and purposes. This lasts only until after they have performed the single MC-forced action, and no other figures (aside from a SHIELD Agents utilizing his team ability) may do anything until that action is over.

Since the MCed figure is friendly, a wildcard may access his ability until he reverts to the opposing team, yes. However, a wildcard member on your team can't move or attack during the MC action, and so mimicing something like the Avengers ability from the MCed figure won't help. Something like the Sinister Syndicate ability, however, would be possible because it doesn't require that the wildcard really do anything; they cannot attack themselves, but if the MCed figure is an adjacent SS member then the MCed figure may borrow the wildcard's value.

Mind Controlling a wildcard has a few more options, as team abilities requiring some sort of action to take place are usable by the MCed figure. Since all of your team is friendly to him, all team abilities you have in play at the time are his to duplicate until he reverts to the opposing team again.

Since the figure is on your team and considered a part of your force, you roll for his actions.

Hope those help,
HC

[firstfederal]

Okay. That was a little ridiculous.

But you can get the team abilities cheap.

SHIELD TEAM 10 pts.- R SHIELD Agent
HYDRA TEAM 9 pts.- R Hydra Op
SKRULL TEAM 11 pts.- R Skrull Agent
AVENGERS TEAM 24 pts.- E Quicksilver
FANTASTIC FOUR TEAM 37 pts.- R Invisible Girl
XMEN TEAM 28 pts.- R Wolfsbane
SINISTER SYNDICATE TEAM 20 pts.- E Vulture

BATMAN ALLY TEAM 17 pts.- R Robin
SUPERMAN ENEMY TEAM 18 pts.- R Intergang Agent

And adding a few of these team abilities can unbalance the game.

Is there a written rule about which team abilities are compatible and which exclude each other?

Bill

[HeroComplex]

The FAQ restriction is that a wildcard may only use one team ability at a time. All the other restrictions are merely the extensions of that---Hydra and SS, for instance. To lend a high attack and then further modify that attack, clearly the two abilities would need to be working at the same time. All of the restrictions are things like that.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by firstfederal
But you can get the team abilities cheap.
{...}
And adding a few of these team abilities can unbalance the game.

It sounds unbalancing, but it really isn't in practice. There's a points balance in play. If you're using a 10 point SHIELD Agent to get the SHIELD ability, it's really easy for your opponent to pick off that one weakling and poof you've lost that ability for two figures (the original and the wild card). And for every cheap figure you're adding just to get that ability, you're diluting the strength of the rest of your army.

Do some math. To put all the "cheap" figures you mention into one team would cost you 174 points - and you still have to add in your wild card. On a 300 point team, you've now got room for a few doombots or one slugger like E Annihilus. That's not much of an army. You've either got a few middling attackers requiring massive co-ordination to be effective, or one figure with a target on its forehead. And for that 174 points, you could have taken V Doomsday.

With wild cards, it's far more effective to concentrate on two or perhaps three good abilities. Put U Catwoman in with E Annihilus and R Steel for a nasty combination - Catwoman and Steel are solid second-tier figures, and E Annihilus with permanent stealth/antistealth is a tough (but not impossible) opponent. And you've still got almost 50 points left over for support.

[AdamWarlock]

Yeah, I had a lot of fun with Doombots at a big marvel and dc tourney I did this weekend.

Free movement taxi actions using brotherhood, attack boosting hydra, AV-lending/borrowing via Sinister Syndicate...

I used Superman enemy in a nice way, I think, too. I mainly used it for attack purposes in that I'd become superman enemy and outwit toughness/invulnerability, whatever; whallop the guy, then go into a different team. Superman enemy ability leaves meaning outwit leaves and the ability I got rid of returns if they still have it... which they won't after how badly I whalloped them. My doombots were now free to "stealth out" with my Batman ally team ability supplied by my one hard-to-spot Robin.

Also of great use was the Superman ally ability (thank God Steel is affordable) for my experienced level Klaw. Suck it, Black Panther.

I can't wait for the next DC set so that we can abuse this ability all the more. Just think of how useful it'll be once we have green lanterns and mystics to mooch off of...

[firstfederal]

Adam Warlock- Thanks for the report.

That said...

I stand corrected. MOD cannot be seen as a loophole.

Bill

[drop19]

A side-issue that we had some uncertainty on last night: When is it legal to declare a wildcard ability. I was attacking Doctor Strange while he was standing next to Spidey (who had a defense of 18). I made the roll and beat Strange's defense score, at which point it was then declared that Strange was a Defender. Would this be considered legal or would the declaration have to occur before the roll? Also, if you declare an attack and such a thing does happen, is it illegal to not make the attack or just bad etiquette?

[Funky Jett]

Typically you have to declare before the attack. This is specifically true with the Fantastic 4 team ability to work. Same thing with the Batman ability because your opponent might have to change his target.

[WakandaMan]

Herocomplex....why the heck can't a Superman Ally use outwit against a stealth/Batally in hindering terrain? Or were you talking purely in regards to wildcards doing this (in which case it makes perfect sense)?


Regards...

[HeroComplex]

Funky, as much as that FF/wildcard ruling used to be the case, I don't believe it is now. As of the most recent FAQ, the FF ability for wildcards can be declared after the attack roll so long as it occurs before damage is clicked. For the Defenders, though, I would say that the figure has to be declared as a Defender before the dice are rolled---FF can change because until the figure is KOed things are fair game, but the Defenders ability affects the defense/attack comparison and so should in turn be declared before that step.

WakandaMan---the Superman Ally ability is not an absolute negation of hindering. It allows the terrain to be ignored for movement and combat purposes, of which Outwit and Perplex are neither. Therefore, neither Perplex nor Outwit can benefit from the Superman Ally ability.

[Funky Jett]

You're right as usual... ;) My bad.

[Rake]

Originally posted by HeroComplex
[the Superman Ally ability is not an absolute negation of hindering. It allows the terrain to be ignored for movement and combat purposes, of which Outwit and Perplex are neither. Therefore, neither Perplex nor Outwit can benefit from the Superman Ally ability. [/B]

So outwitting someones invulnerability before shooting them in the head isn't aiding you in combat? Get real!

What if you have probability control and Superman Ally (e blackcat)? If you're up against an opponents batman (who is stealthed in hindering terrain) can you get him to reroll? It would be for combat purposes.

The word used in the PAC is combat. If you are outwitting someones abilities, perplexing down an opponents defense or using probability control I would argue that these are all to aid and gain the advantage in combat.

Also...outwit, perplex and probability control all appear as powers on the damage part of a figures dial. If damage powers aren't associated with combat then I'll paint myself blue and get myself some white pants and a white hat and change my name to grouchy smurf.

[HeroComplex]

For these purposes, combat is not defined as the entirety of the game or the epic good-vs-evil struggle---combat is considered those actions which are specifically designated as such, just as movement is considered those actions which are designated in that way. The ruling does not say that Outwit won't help you shoot someone later, but that the Outwit itself is not punching someone.

Probability Control is actually intentionally not mentioned in the previous post. The word from Chapeau on this was that Probability Control must necessarily take place during either movement or combat, and therefore can benefit from the Superman Ally ability.

As for the damage slot---that doesn't really hold up. Leadership comes to mind, as it can't be called a part of combat unless we've reverted back to the uber-definition of combat. And if this argument weren't expressly discussing Outwit and Perplex, I would use those as examples of other damage-slot powers which were not necessarily a part of combat.

[Rake]

So your wildcard figure can only use one friendly team ability at a time. That is clear. What I don't understand is use of wildcards when it's not your go.

Part 1: I've sort of asked this before, but I've never got a straight answer.

If my team has a defender, a skrull, a FF member and a wildcard do I have to declare at the end of my turn that the wildcard is one of these or can I use them as I see fit as like as they're not being used at the same time.

Example (this is how my friends and I play)...I have my four figures all adjacent, (so the wildcard can use defender team ability).

My opponent targets the wildcard figure. He has to role to get passed skrull ability. If he does get passed the skrull team ability then the wildcard takes on the Defenders figure's defense value. My opponent hits and kills the wildcard figure, so the FF figure on my team gets a click of health back.

Now the way my friends and I see this is that these team abilities are not being used at the same time, so it's legal. BUT what I see at tournaments is rules nazis saying that at the end of your turn that you have to declare one and only one of those team abilities.

Part 2: This is something else I've experienced first hand at a tournament. My opponent's team was capable of attacking me in his first go and he rolled higher so was player one. My team had some wildcards and robin with batman team ability. The chump I was playing was trying to argue that my wildcard figures which I had placed in hindering couldn't use batman team ability because I haven't had a go yet, so I am not in a position to use it as I haven't had a chance to declare anything. The judge overruled him, saying there was no declaration phase before the game starts, so I wasn't required to declare team abilities and could therefore use the batman team ability.

What are your thoughts on this HeroComplex????

[Funky Jett]

I'm not HC, but here ya go...

1) Everything here is just fine with the exception of one thing. Your wildcard figure would have to declare the FF team ability after the hit but before you take the damage clicks. It's possible he might not get KO'd yet. Other than that, everything is ok.

2) Your judge ruled correctly. When you are on defense (no matter at what point in the game), you can STILL choose your team ability. You can bounce from Batman, to Defenders, to Skrull, to FF... as the case may warrent (provided you have someone from that team on your team). You were right, your opponent was wrong.

[TheEnigma]

What's up Funky Jett! Normally I agree with you on these topics, but I gots one beef here - once the attacker rolls to hit, I'm 99% sure you can't then change to FF team beacuse the damage resolution is part of the combat roll. Once you're hit, you die and don't have the chance to change teams. Or at least I think Tsannik ruled that in a previous post. Unlike Magic, there are no "phases" in HC - you can only repsond to individual actions.

So:
When the opponent declares his attack, you can respond by declaring Skrull team, forcing him to roll. If he wins the roll, you may respond by declaring Defenders team to share Strange's DEF. If his attack roll is successful anyway, you take the assigned damage and die without a chance to respond. If you survive the damage instead, you can change to whatever team you want, but it won't matter because you didn't die. Although personally I think it would be great to get a comic-book-like last dying gasp, the rules just don't allow it...

[HeroComplex]

Actually, Funky and I already worked this through earlier in the thread. And because of a FAQ addition made in February, wildcard figures can change to FF members after the attack roll has been made.Characters with wildcard team abilities (i.e. Spider-Man and Minions of Doom) benefit normally from the FF team ability if the player declared the character(s) were FF members after the attack, but before the character takes clicks of damage from the attack. It hadn't been stated quite that way prior, and so rulings before the FAQ update may say differently. However, as things stand Funky is exactly right as far as I can tell. Each of those abilities is segmented in terms of when they are in effect and don't overlap.

[Fuzzy]

Probability Control is actually intentionally not mentioned in the previous post. The word from Chapeau on this was that Probability Control must necessarily take place during either movement or combat, and therefore can benefit from the Superman Ally ability.

What about Leadership, Regeneration, and Support? These take place outside of combat and movement.

[HeroComplex]

Leadership's the only one that irks me, actually. Support requires a close combat action and Regeneration requires a move action, after all.

[shadow_777]

I have a question on the wild card issue. I'm using anti-superman team to outwit something, my opponent declares he is attacking that fig. I say he is now skrull. My opponent then says he is attacking someone else since outwit is gone.
Legal? Thought I would double check.


My 2 bits on the switching to fantastic 4 after the attack but before damage is that it's kind of weird.

*So if there is a phase between attacking and clicking, can you then outwit during this time?

[TheEnigma]

Thanks for the heads-up, HeroComplex. I didn't realize there had been another ruling on this one. I'll get there yet....so I'll try again:

Shadow_77 - Your opponent cannot change his target unless he fails in his Skrull-defense roll. If he wins the roll, he is committed to attacking that character. He may not "bluff" an attack just to force you to give up your Outwit.

[HeroComplex]

I'm not sure if it's anywhere strictly in writing, but I tend to agree with TheEnigma on this. I would probably leave it up to the wildcard's controller whether he wanted to hold his opponent to the targeting declaration or not. Normally, of course I wouldn't force someone to stick to whatever he thinks aloud, but when it comes down to an actually alteration of the game for him to change his mind, he may have to live with it.