Loki Stealth / Probability Question

[Tchalla62]

While using Loki in a game I had him placed in hindering terrain .
I targeted my opponents figure using Loki , but I rolled a ( 4 ) and missed .
When I wanted to re-roll , my opponent said that I couldn't use probability control because Loki was Stealthed and that I had to turn off Loki's stealth in order to use probability control .

Is this true ?
Does Loki have to turn off his OWN stealth power in order to use his OWN probability control ?

[Terman8er]

Yes, because PC requires a "clear line of fire" in order to be used. The same is true for Perplex. You cannot perplex one of your own stealthed clix.

But no one really holds people to that...generally speaking. Remember any power you turn off automatically comes back on at the end of your turn.

The negative is once Loki, in this case, turns his stealth off opponents can see him to PC his rolls too. There may be more negatives...just can't think of any off the top of my head.

[thebigZZZZZ]

While using Loki in a game I had him placed in hindering terrain .
I targeted my opponents figure using Loki , but I rolled a ( 4 ) and missed .
When I wanted to re-roll , my opponent said that I couldn't use probability control because Loki was Stealthed and that I had to turn off Loki's stealth in order to use probability control .

Is this true ?
Does Loki have to turn off his OWN stealth power in order to use his OWN probability control ?

Yes unfortunately true. You have to announce that you are unstealthing your figure in order to use PC. Last week, I had to tell the opponent the same thing when he used Domino to PC the attack, only that he could not do it because he did not announce it. I told him that in order to use PC, he had to unstealth first. He said that it was unfair and I used the examples such as Jack Of Hearts using PC while PW because he has a line of fire to himself so can use PC himself and others. He was not happy about it. So I gave him a chance to go ahead with PC and told him that if it happens again, I would not allow it.

[jbship628]

On page 10 of the rulebook:

A character can draw a line of fire to itself or to the square it occupies.

That leads me to believe that Loki should be able to affect himself with his own powers without needing to cancel Stealth. Other characters obviously would require Loki to drop stealth first to use powers like PC or Perplex.

Also, dropping Stealth beforehand is important because if the opponent has a PCer, if you maintain stealth they cannot use PC against you. However if you drop PC to either PC yourself or receive other bonuses, than that same opposing figure can use PC now that it can see you.

[Tchalla62]

Yes, because PC requires a "clear line of fire" in order to be used. The same is true for Perplex. You cannot perplex one of your own stealthed clix.

But no one really holds people to that...generally speaking.

Remember any power you turn off automatically comes back on at the end of your turn.

The negative is once Loki, in this case, turns his stealth off opponents can see him to PC his rolls too. There may be more negatives...just can't think of any off the top of my head.

Thanks Terman8er , I highlighted the part about the power automatcially coming back on at the end of your turn because I was told something different .

Here's what I was told :

" Once Loki turns off his stealth it doesn't come back on until my next turn ."

Is this true ?

[jbship628]

Yes unfortunately true. You have to announce that you are unstealthing your figure in order to use PC. Last week, I had to tell the opponent the same thing when he used Domino to PC the attack, only that he could not do it because he did not announce it. I told him that in order to use PC, he had to unstealth first. He said that it was unfair and I used the examples such as Jack Of Hearts using PC while PW because he has a line of fire to himself so can use PC himself and others. He was not happy about it. So I gave him a chance to go ahead with PC and told him that if it happens again, I would not allow it.

Jack of Hearts can't use PC during a Pulse Wave because Pulse Wave ignores all powers within its range, not because you can't see yourself.

[Tchalla62]

On page 10 of the rulebook:

A character can draw a line of fire to itself or to the square it occupies.

That leads me to believe that Loki should be able to affect himself with his own powers without needing to cancel Stealth. Other characters obviously would require Loki to drop stealth first to use powers like PC or Perplex.

Also, dropping Stealth beforehand is important because if the opponent has a PCer, if you maintain stealth they cannot use PC against you. However if you drop PC to either PC yourself or receive other bonuses, than that same opposing figure can use PC now that it can see you.

Thank you .
Does Loki's stealth return immediately once my turn concludes ?

[Terman8er]

It would seem I was incorrect...ya learn something new every day.

When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

So technically it is "off" until the "beginning of the next player's turn" and technically not at the end of your turn. :) Heh...Semantics.

So...I was kinda right. :)

Ah...was just thinking about this and this could hurt you.

Allow me to explain:

Poison happens 'at the beginning of your turn'.

You can use Outwit 'at the beginning of your turn'.

You can Outwit a damage reducer before Poison goes off as the active player gets to chose which happens first.

Ergo, your opponent should be ablt to Outwit something on your stealthed character before Stealth comes back on...if you follow.

[jbship628]

Thank you .
Does Loki's stealth return immediately once my turn concludes ?

Yes.

Since all powers are assumed to be on unless you turn them off. Once you cancel it during your turn, it is gone, but comes back starting on the next player's turn.

[Tchalla62]

Yes unfortunately true. You have to announce that you are unstealthing your figure in order to use PC. Last week, I had to tell the opponent the same thing when he used Domino to PC the attack, only that he could not do it because he did not announce it. I told him that in order to use PC, he had to unstealth first. He said that it was unfair and I used the examples such as Jack Of Hearts using PC while PW because he has a line of fire to himself so can use PC himself and others. He was not happy about it. So I gave him a chance to go ahead with PC and told him that if it happens again, I would not allow it.

Did Domino's stealth power return immediately after his turn concluded ?

[BigSoph]

Jack of Hearts can't use PC during a Pulse Wave because Pulse Wave ignores all powers within its range, not because you can't see yourself.

This is not true

From the Players' Guide, page 7
A character’s own powers, feats, and team abilities would not be ignored during the Pulse Wave attack.

[thebigZZZZZ]

Did Domino's stealth power return immediately after his turn concluded ?

yeah...if she is in Hindering Terrain...then I cannot attack her or even PC her. yeah.

[thebigZZZZZ]

Jack of Hearts can't use PC during a Pulse Wave because Pulse Wave ignores all powers within its range, not because you can't see yourself.

Yes you can! Ask Harpua or Quebbster or check the old threads regarding PC and PW.

[Tchalla62]

a big " THANK YOU " to everyone , especially concerning the cancellation of powers and when they return .

[Terman8er]

Jack of Hearts can't use PC during a Pulse Wave because Pulse Wave ignores all powers within its range, not because you can't see yourself.

This is not true

From the Players' Guide, page 7
A character’s own powers, feats, and team abilities would not be ignored during the Pulse Wave attack.

Edit: Beaten to the punch.

[BigSoph]

Yes.

Since all powers are assumed to be on unless you turn them off. Once you cancel it during your turn, it is gone, but comes back starting on the next player's turn.

The exact phrasing, is this:
When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

So be careful about cancelling Stealth. An opponent could, for example, Outwit a power then have your Stealth return

[jbship628]

So what's the deal with stealth on yourself?

That was the initial question anyway.

Can a Stealthed Loki use PC on himself? I would say yes based on the line of the rulebook I quoted and the fact that PC says a character can use PC on themselves. I'm not a rules arbiter but would like I guess more clarification on that issue.

[Terman8er]

It would seem I was incorrect...ya learn something new every day.



So technically it is "off" until the "beginning of the next player's turn" and technically not at the end of your turn. :) Heh...Semantics.

So...I was kinda right. :)

Ah...was just thinking about this and this could hurt you.

Allow me to explain:

Poison happens 'at the beginning of your turn'.

You can use Outwit 'at the beginning of your turn'.

You can Outwit a damage reducer before Poison goes off as the active player gets to chose which happens first.

Ergo, your opponent should be ablt to Outwit something on your stealthed character before Stealth comes back on...if you follow.

The exact phrasing, is this:
When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

So be careful about cancelling Stealth. An opponent could, for example, Outwit a power then have your Stealth return

AHA! This time I am having the quicker typing skillz! :)

[BigSoph]

So what's the deal with stealth on yourself?

That was the initial question anyway.

Can a Stealthed Loki use PC on himself? I would say yes based on the line of the rulebook I quoted and the fact that PC says a character can use PC on themselves. I'm not a rules arbiter but would like I guess more clarification on that issue.

Here is the PAC entry on Stealth:
Any line of fire drawn to this character that crosses hindering terrain, including a square of hindering terrain occupied by this character, is blocked.

[Harpua]

So what's the deal with stealth on yourself?

That was the initial question anyway.

Can a Stealthed Loki use PC on himself? I would say yes based on the line of the rulebook I quoted and the fact that PC says a character can use PC on themselves. I'm not a rules arbiter but would like I guess more clarification on that issue.
A figure using Stealth cannot draw LoF to itself if it occupies hindering terrain.

(The entire base would need to be in it, of course. A multi-based figure with Stealth could see itself if a square was not hindering.)

[normalview]

The exact phrasing, is this:
When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

So be careful about cancelling Stealth. An opponent could, for example, Outwit a power then have your Stealth return

This is not true. FF rules, page 6:

Effects that occur at the beginning or end of a round or turn. Some game effects occur at the beginning or end of a round. Before the first player takes his or her turn in a round, effects that occur “at the beginning of a round” resolve. If multiple effects occur at the beginning or end of a round, the order of their resolution is determined by the first player in the first round, continuing clockwise around the table in subsequent rounds. Other effects occur at the beginning of a player’s turn. Prior to initiating these effects, any effects that last “until the beginning of your turn” resolve. Then effects that occur “at the beginning of your turn” can be performed in any order, as chosen by the active player.


This means that things like Barrier and Smoke Cloud tokens are removed, canceled powers return, and other such effects are all done prior to when a character could ever use Outwit.

[Maraud]

Here is the PAC entry on Stealth:
Any line of fire drawn to this character that crosses hindering terrain, including a square of hindering terrain occupied by this character, is blocked.

but yet it is not crossing hindering terrain.
its seems that the "including a square of hindering terrain occupied by this character" is a adding onto the crosses hindering terrain.

[imaleximsweet]

This is not true

From the Players' Guide, page 7
A character’s own powers, feats, and team abilities would not be ignored during the Pulse Wave attack.

otherwise pulse wave would not be able to be used...

[Maraud]

but yet it is not crossing hindering terrain.
its seems that the "including a square of hindering terrain occupied by this character" is a adding onto the crosses hindering terrain.

also this seems to apply also
This represents an attacker’s ability to
fire from the edge of hindering terrain—protected by it, but not impaired
by it.

[cdfrio71]

lots of good information thanks for the post

[Joeshane86]

Turn your stealth off before you use Prob or Perplex on your figure. The worst that could happen is your opponent can see you to make you re-roll if they have the ability to. Stealth is back online at the end of your turn. Bingo-Bango-LOKI-snot-rocket-ftw!!!!!!!

[A_Higher_Level]

Yes unfortunately true. You have to announce that you are unstealthing your figure in order to use PC. Last week, I had to tell the opponent the same thing when he used Domino to PC the attack, only that he could not do it because he did not announce it. I told him that in order to use PC, he had to unstealth first. He said that it was unfair and I used the examples such as Jack Of Hearts using PC while PW because he has a line of fire to himself so can use PC himself and others. He was not happy about it. So I gave him a chance to go ahead with PC and told him that if it happens again, I would not allow it.

This is true. This ruling is largely ignored during 'friendly' gaming sessions, but is enforceable during competitive tournament play. Should he attack and you attempt to use PC, he'll claim he's stealthed, however when he critically misses, he'll claim he's not stealthed. Hence the ruling to state which powers are canceled before the action is taken.

[bugleboy]

This is true. This ruling is largely ignored during 'friendly' gaming sessions, but is enforceable during competitive tournament play. Should he attack and you attempt to use PC, he'll claim he's stealthed, however when he critically misses, he'll claim he's not stealthed. Hence the ruling to state which powers are canceled before the action is taken.

Thanks for the point, Higher Level. In my opinion, it is important in casual or competitive play for this very reason. Your darn tootin' if a player hits you and you attempt to PC their role, they'll shout "Stealth". Just stick to the rules, otherwise there is just too much room for shenanigans.

[AgentP]

Am I the only one thinking that it's SO stupid that an Stealthed character can't target himself in hindering terrain.

[Quebbster]

Am I the only one thinking that it's SO stupid that an Stealthed character can't target himself in hindering terrain.

No. The rules are what they are though.

[Harpua]

Am I the only one thinking that it's SO stupid that an Stealthed character can't target himself in hindering terrain.

It is a game-balance issue more than anything.

And if that is the stupidest ruling you find (in terms of game logic versus real-world logic), then consider yourself lucky. ;)

[W.I.T]

Am I the only one thinking that it's SO stupid that an Stealthed character can't target himself in hindering terrain.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with it. If your opponent can't see you, how can you see yourself :p ?

[Tchalla62]

Turn your stealth off before you use Prob or Perplex on your figure. The worst that could happen is your opponent can see you to make you re-roll if they have the ability to. Stealth is back online at the end of your turn. Bingo-Bango-LOKI-snot-rocket-ftw!!!!!!!

CHECK-MATE ! :cool:

[BigSoph]

This is not true. FF rules, page 6:

Effects that occur at the beginning or end of a round or turn. Some game effects occur at the beginning or end of a round. Before the first player takes his or her turn in a round, effects that occur “at the beginning of a round” resolve. If multiple effects occur at the beginning or end of a round, the order of their resolution is determined by the first player in the first round, continuing clockwise around the table in subsequent rounds. Other effects occur at the beginning of a player’s turn. Prior to initiating these effects, any effects that last “until the beginning of your turn” resolve. Then effects that occur “at the beginning of your turn” can be performed in any order, as chosen by the active player.

This means that things like Barrier and Smoke Cloud tokens are removed, canceled powers return, and other such effects are all done prior to when a character could ever use Outwit.

I actually knew that but the exact phrasing I got from the rulebook says:
When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

It is not an "until the beginning"

[normalview]

I actually knew that but the exact phrasing I got from the rulebook says:
When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

It is not an "until the beginning"

It does, you just have to go back further with your bolding:

When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

[BigSoph]

It does, you just have to go back further with your bolding:

When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

The rule for when it comes back on says "at the beginning". The phrase until the end of the turn covers no possible further use in the turn of cancellation. I cannot think of any distinct examples but say a feat card caused pushing damage at the end of the turn and you had Willpower, which was cancelled. If something is at the end of the turn, the usual standard is the active player has the choice of sequence, they could declare that the sequence was Willpower returns, push damage, oh looky, no damage. Moving the reactivation of a power quashes that before it surfaces

There are the two distinct parts of the beginning of the turn, "until the" phase * and "at the" phase, with the former being resolved first

Cancelled says "at the"

If it said "and remains cancelled until the beginning of the next turn", it would resolve in the earlier 'phase'

Since phrasing is important in heroclix (q.v. incredibly long, and ultimately dissatisfactorily resolved, argument about the nature of Trigon's thingies), this is an error in the rules that needs correction if the intent was to have cancellation come off at the same time as the powers you mentioned

* need a word here to describe the sequence

[normalview]

The rule for when it comes back on says "at the beginning"

There are the two distinct parts of the beginning of the turn, "until the" phase * and "at the" phase, with the former being resolved first

Cancelled says "at the"

If it said "and remains cancelled until the beginning of the next turn", it would resolve in the earlier 'phase'

Since phrasing is important in heroclix (q.v. incredibly long, and ultimately dissatisfactorily resolved, argument about the nature of Trigon's thingies), this is an error in the rules that needs correction if the intent was to have cancellation come off at the same time as the powers you mentioned

* need a word here to describe the sequence

I fail to see how "until the beginning of the next player's turn" and "until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn" are any different timing-wise.

If you can point to some specific game effect or ruling that shoe-horns itself inbetween the exact ending of the last turn and the very beginning of the next, you might have an argument. Otherwise, those two phrases are equal in my eyes.

[absolutvt69]

Thanks for the point, Higher Level. In my opinion, it is important in casual or competitive play for this very reason. Your darn tootin' if a player hits you and you attempt to PC their role, they'll shout "Stealth". Just stick to the rules, otherwise there is just too much room for shenanigans.

Exactly. I often ask my opponent if he wants to keep Stealth on or off before the attack for this very reason. Otherwise it gives you the option to attack and if you hit, Stealth is on and if you miss "Oh I wanted to PC that". And there have been times where I forget to turn off Stealth and miss... and don't PC it because of that.

[Harpua]

If you can point to some specific game effect or ruling that shoe-horns itself inbetween the exact ending of the last turn and the very beginning of the next, you might have an argument. Otherwise, those two phrases are equal in my eyes.
*Deputy Badge comes off*;)

Blood Curse is in play.
For each character that KOs or eliminates one or more opposing characters during a turn, roll a d6 at the end of the turn. On a result of 1-3, that character is dealt 1 damage.

Will Magnus and Platinum have made an attack to KO a figure.
I want to Compel them, but I want to make it easier.
Unfortunately, they have:
Particularly Resistant: Will Magnus and Platinum can use Defend and Toughness. Their defense value can't be modified to a lower value.
I cancel this in order to Perplex down their defense for the Compel.

Is the power still canceled when Blood Curse deals damage?

*Badge back on*

As these are two simultaneous events, the active player (me) decides the order in which they occur.

Obviously, I'm going to want my Toughness back.

What exactly can I do, though?
"When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn. "

At the end of the turn, the power is no longer canceled. I can therefore have the power be in a state of not being canceled prior to rolling for Blood Curse.

Unfortunately, the effect, letting me use Toughness and not having defense lowered, doesn't resume until the beginning of the next turn.

How this conundrum can actually be, I don't know.

I know that if the situation were to present itself during a game I officiate, I suppose I would have to rule that while the power is not canceled, it would have no effect.


I don't imagine that was the intention, but that's the way I read the wording.

[KillerSavage]

Isn't it you option it off for the prob control. Then once business is taken care of you option it back on. Canceled is something totally different. Right? Maybe? Just tell me to shut up.

[Maraud]

Isn't it you option it off for the prob control. Then once business is taken care of you option it back on. Canceled is something totally different. Right? Maybe? Just tell me to shut up.

yes if it is a SP or TA that says "can use" but if its the actual power or they possess then u must turn off the power.

[Steelmage2000]

I got a quick question, can you outwit a power that has been canceled? I would say no, but latey the rulings have surprised me here and there.

[Maraud]

I got a quick question, can you outwit a power that has been canceled? I would say no, but latey the rulings have surprised me here and there.

yes you can.
They still have the power on their dial, they are just not benefiting from it at the time.
Otherwise people could say i Outwit this then at the start of the opponents turn say i cancel the power and still have the other power outwitted

[BigSoph]

What exactly can I do, though?
"When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn. "

At the end of the turn, the power is no longer canceled. I can therefore have the power be in a state of not being canceled prior to rolling for Blood Curse.

Unfortunately, the effect, letting me use Toughness and not having defense lowered, doesn't resume until the beginning of the next turn.

How this conundrum can actually be, I don't know.

I know that if the situation were to present itself during a game I officiate, I suppose I would have to rule that while the power is not canceled, it would have no effect.

I don't imagine that was the intention, but that's the way I read the wording.

I hereby dub this The BigSoph Power Paradox!

Since HC does not have distinct phases subtle wording can cause weirdness, like this where a power is not cancelled but not back in effect for the 'until the beginning' phase is done, leaving you vulnerable on your opponent's turn during the 'at the beginning' phase

[azureai]

This is true. This ruling is largely ignored during 'friendly' gaming sessions, but is enforceable during competitive tournament play. Should he attack and you attempt to use PC, he'll claim he's stealthed, however when he critically misses, he'll claim he's not stealthed. Hence the ruling to state which powers are canceled before the action is taken.

I do have to point out that it's EXTREMELY d-ckish to not allow someone to use probability control on their stealth character if you don't have a probabilty controller yourself or otherwise couldn't effect the stealthed character during that attack. If your opponent had turned off the character's stealth, you couldn't have done anything anyways, so why be a jerk? It's just bad sportsmanship, especially when playing a newer character.

If you could affect the outcome, though, and your opponent makes that mistake, feel free to rules-lawyer.

[nbperp]

I do have to point out that it's EXTREMELY d-ckish to not allow someone to use probability control on their stealth character if you don't have a probabilty controller yourself or otherwise couldn't effect the stealthed character during that attack. If your opponent had turned off the character's stealth, you couldn't have done anything anyways, so why be a jerk? It's just bad sportsmanship, especially when playing a newer character.

If you could affect the outcome, though, and your opponent makes that mistake, feel free to rules-lawyer.

Rep for you sir.

[Tchalla62]

It does, you just have to go back further with your bolding:

When a power is canceled, it is canceled until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next player’s turn.

. . . so my Lokis stealth immediately returns at the beginning of my opponents' turn . :cool: