Spiderman and Daredevil

[Silver Viper]

Has anyone else thought that these two characters were extremely weak compared to their comic book characters? Well I'm just hoping the new versions are actually decent. Atleast the new Spiderman has SS. I'm glad to also see that the new elecktra is good(160 points- wow). But I just want a good spiderman and daredevil that i can actually play with.

[Fogs]

Spidey's biggest problem was that he was overcosted. Well, that and one of his signature powers, Spider Senses, was missing. V Spidey's like 110 pts.

DD is a little weak. Hopefully the new version will give him a higher AV to go along with his newly found leap/climb.

I can't see either of these guys ever dealing more than 2 damage though can you?

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Fogs
Spidey's biggest problem was that he was overcosted. Well, that and one of his signature powers, Spider Senses, was missing. V Spidey's like 110 pts.

DD is a little weak. Hopefully the new version will give him a higher AV to go along with his newly found leap/climb.

I can't see either of these guys ever dealing more than 2 damage though can you?

Spiderman could easily deal 3 damage !
IF trained figs can do it (batman,Nightwing as if they weren't powerfull enough withpermanent Stealth, L/C and outwit :rolleyes: ) Spiderman certainly should !!

[MeatLoafX]

As much as I love DD - and I really do - I think his new version looks to be right on target. He's not a super-human, really. I think his stats are close to what his character should get - leap climb, incapacitate, small range, 2 damage, and super-senses. What else should he have?

I can't see him being able to hurt an invulnerable character directly, can you?

[Silver Viper]

Daredevil couldn't heart an invulnerablity character, but remember spidey got pretty strong after his spider bite. They might be able to give him 3 damage for the first click or two and get by with it.

[Fogs]

Ehhhhhhhhh.....


Not QUITE Swayed by the three damage arguments.

I LIKE Spiderman, I really do, but I just can't see it guys. They only give Superman 3 damage....

[Silver Viper]

I can see your point there Fogs. There is no way in hell Spiderman is as strong as Supes.

[kon-el]

Or as strong as vision for that point. So some could say that spidey can only do one click, but they will probably be cheap and say that you can boost up his damage w/ ss like they did vision.

[Melkoloran]

I think Spidey tops out at 2. Going above that puts him on par with some company that he doesn't compare to.

[Mr Deadpool]

Okay heres some more rebuttle against 3 damage and what not..

for those that don't know this Spider-man can actually lift 10 TONS that's a lot of weight if you as me. He should EASILY be able to do 3 damage especially if Batman whose just a mortal does 3 damage... think about it that way. Yes I know your thinking well Superman can move planets... well if his damage represented that then no one would EVER be able to play him unless they made like 50,000 point games and everyone was practically god-like defense and whatnot...

So for Spider-man to do 3 damage isn't that insane of an idea. As for Daredevil, who is by far one of my favorite characters, has also trained (a majority of his life (since 12)) to fight, as well as learning under accomplished masters of the Martial Arts could do 3 damage as well (representing his use of the Martial Arts and the deadly attacks that he knows... plus his Radar Sense sending the images of where to hit) As he's said I believe it's not how strong a person is, it's where you hit him that counts. (granted someone like Hulk or Superman probably wouldn't be phased by a hit to a nerve cluster) but it could definately tick them off (thus 1 pt of damage)

Just my thoughts on two of the greatest Marvel characters.

Cat

P.S. - Electra - 160pts... OMG!... we'll have to wait and see if she's worth it... but dang!

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by Silver Viper
I can see your point there Fogs. There is no way in hell Spiderman is as strong as Supes.


......But Batman is?????????????????:rolleyes:

Gimme a break.

So, Superhuman strengthed Spiderman cant deal as much damage as ordinary Human Bruce Wayne. Gotcha.

Superman was shafted on Damage Value. It should have been about 4 damage. Then people wouldnt be making these statements that 3 damage puts you on par with superman.

3 damage means you can hit a bigtime figure with INV and that figure will at least feel the effect for one click. Not too big a deal I dont think.

Bear with me here.

Imagine for a moment that Spidermans damage value is 3. He makes a Close combat attack on superman for a WHOPPING, DEVASTATINGLY POWERFUL.......1 click. Superman retaliates next turn, and without any supersenses, the attack easily connects with Spiderman for 3 damage. So you see, just 3 damage does not put spiderman on par with superman. If the fight were to continue in this fashion, Supes would mop the floor with Spiderman. It takes more than Damage value to put you on par with a heavy hitter. Defensive powers come into play heavily. Heck, with Superman's Impervious, there is a chance that the attack wont even land for damage at all.

Its an easy concept to grasp. 3 damage allows you to barely nick an INV figure. SPiderman hits superman and he feels the effect, but not majorly. If batman can hurt supes, so can spidey. Thor, with 4 damage is stronger thanspidey and can hit supes for 2 clicks. Hulk, on his best and strongest click of 5, which is the strongest natural damage in marvel could inflict 3 clicks of damage on superman which is extremely powerful.

Spiderman should do 3 damage, Superman should be doing 4. If little rich boy Bruce wayne can deal 3 damage, Spiderman should easily match that. Bane does 5 damage to start for like 3 clicks, dropping to 4, and then 3, for only 85 points and noone seems to have any trouble swallowing that one. What did Bane ever do to deserve that? Oh yeah, I forgot..... he broke the little rich boy's back.....Whoopeeeeeee. Doomsday KILLED superman and doesnt even do 5 damage. So I dont want to hear any bellyaching about how Spiderman getting 3 damage would be such a exaggeration.

[k0rnkid15]

i think stinger is right. spider-man should have 3 damage, if batman can y shouldnt he? i meen we've also seen in comics spider-man face some pretty big characters and beat them, so y cant he do the same in heroclix? i just think he should have 1, maybe 2 clicks of 3 damage.

[Aron]

The problem:

Heroclix damage, point cost and health system is just a little out of whack.

Most clix have 3- 5 clix of life. The "big guns" have from 8 - 12.

As for damage:
Average humans do 1, Above average 2, superhuman 3 and 4 (godlike) or 5 for a Very rare few...

problem, the damage level isn't split enough - in part because of toughness and invulnerability, characters who are nowhere near each other in the same weight class don't have damage or powers respective of that, partly because marvel doesn't have a CCE like power

Yes, superman can KO in one hit a regular human, but he starts having problems against larger tougher foes. And it all boils down to attack values, defense powers and things like outwit.

as it stands... for health
Average weak human 3 clix
Slightly tougher human 4 clix
low end Super powered characters/experienced humans - shallow end 5 clix
Mid range super powered 6 - 7 clix
Spiderman 8 clix
Hulk 10 clix
unusually durable characters 10 + clix
Goliath size characters 20 ish (for 300 point versions)

Another part of the problem is, at this level of health, even with damage reduction powers ( that dont get outwitted) a lot of these entities hardly have any vitality or staying power against a concentrated blast of power (from say firelord, bullseye and cyclops all teamed up) for very long. And can't successfully mount an effective counter attack against large numbers of foes

Supposedly to represent their power and strength they're given strong powers such as SS, RCE, high damage, etc. But unfortunately with low attack or an inability to move and attack or be moved and attack, they become swiss cheese to concentrated ranged fire (especially when backed by outwit)

With their defense powers intact this would be less of a problem, but still you have to overcome the difficulty of the more clix on a team, the harder it is to clean out the entire team.. for ex. a team with say 20 + pieces (for ex, shield) would give any other ranged team considerable problems, even ultron would have problems (although his high defense would make it a bit more even for him) Still - once the first couple clicks are broken through, if the other team has no support, they will get KO'd without actually being able to do significant damage to the much larger team.

Say in a 400 point game, you have Thor and Thanos on a team together. (for whatever reason) with someone else vs a 20 man shield team. Assuming each shield member is a rookiee, or experienced, that means at best you'd have to be able to do 60 clix to ko the entire team. Whereas that team would need to do 21 clix of damage to your team (minimum, assuming invulnerability/toughness is outwitted) + whatever the remaining 28 points would get you. Without pushing, you would have maybe 2 actions every other turn, more than likely - while they would have 4 actions every turn (effectively 8 - possibly as many as 10 actions if they have leadership).

Your two actions, assuming nobody actually gets lucky in those 8 actions before you can act again, would only successfully do 7 damage total. Assuming one rookiee and one experienced character on the opponent's team, that would mean you would (at best) KO one rookiee and one experienced shield character. Assuming each action they took could do two damage (through invulnerability), they could do a maximum of 16 (20 if they make their leadership) damage - enough to KO Thor, while only having lost 2 of their pieces after one full turn (assuming they dont need to maneuver at all). Leaving you with 3 damage left to be dealt by Thanos. Enough to KO one more rookiee character (assuming he can draw line), before he gets slaughted by a barrage of another 16 (20) possible damage. This would leave you with whoever your remaining 28 points was, alone vs 16 - 17 other pieces. This all assumes automatic hits (which aren't that hard to engineer after a person has had their initial click of high defense/ invulnerability or toughness cracked), that you're not splitting fire with thanos and that the remaining 28 points isn't planning on doing anything, and that you're able to counter attack as effectively after you got hit as you were able to before you got hit.

In short: You're effectively taking 7 clix of damage every other turn against 8 to 10 clix of damage per turn (total 20), with only 21 clicks of life against 60 - 80 clicks of opposing characters.

IF you get rid of the outwitter First, you have a chance. Otherwise sheer numbers Will win, assuming luck is on their side. Mathematically speaking, anyway.

[Aron]

*deep breath* ok now that I've said all that - back to the issue at hand:

Because the health on the big guns isn't high enough to take a beating from weaker character swarms , if it were raised by say 4 clix each, Then the power levels could be differentiated more, allowing spiderman to have a 3, superman to have a 4 damage, thor to have a 5, Hulk to have a 6, for example - this would result in problems with support however.

Part of the reason why it was kept relatively low, was because of support. Support characters needed to have low attacks so they wouldn't be abusive, but with low attacks they would have a hard time healing a "big gun" to full without making multiple successful rolls (each roll becoming more and more difficult).

(This all relates to why firelord seems so unbalanced as well)

[Mr Deadpool]

Oh and one last thing regarding Superman doing only 3 damage...

If you remember he pulls his punches because he doesn't want to kill anyone!!! I just remembered that and that's probably why he does 3

Just a thought!

Cat

[Thorgrin]

I'm not entirely convinced that spidey should have 3 damage. Especially since the next expansion he'll have super strength.

First off, the vet spidey does cost 110 points. Not going to deny that is a big chunk of change. However, if used creatively, it works very well. Firstly, I try to pair him up with someone in the sinister syndicate to take advantage of his 12 attack rating. I also try to target people with toughness rather than invulnerability unless they have a token, then I try incapacitate on them. I don't play him as a mainline fighter, but as a pseudo attack and support figure. After he takes like 3-4 points of damage, I use his leap/climb to get back to a medic. Leap/Climb is a pretty awesome ability to have to get away from trouble. That and eventually outwit comes in and that is when he can start hitting the invulnerability/toughness guys again, though at a lower attack value.

In tournaments it's hard to play, especially in 200-300 point tournaments as there are better figures to play for the cost (i.e. E-Ultron), but 400+, he's not all that terrible.

[Fogs]

Good point Deadpool. However, he (Supes) still got boned.

And Batman and Nightwing caught a break.

I still, from the comics, don't see Spidey as a 3 damage dealer. I could EASILY see him with 2 damage and flurry however! I mean, flurry right up front. However, that would take away the Leap Climb spot I guess.

I really think that Wizkids needs to do something about the powers in the slot thing. As it is now, if a character should have two or more types of powers that belong to one slot - the only way they get both is at different dial points

[Thorgrin]

Either that or maybe they'll do two colors in a slot (represented by a diagonal line) so that there may be more variety in the future. Something like Leap/Climb with Flurry for spidey, but no super strength, etc.

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by Mr Deadpool
Oh and one last thing regarding Superman doing only 3 damage...

If you remember he pulls his punches because he doesn't want to kill anyone!!! I just remembered that and that's probably why he does 3

Just a thought!

Cat

Guess you can justify anything in this game by taking a look from some obscure angle......

If ordinary humans only do one damage, then I guess batman has a real fanboy writing up his dial.

[Badges2]

Superman is a non-clix-able character. He cannot be well represented in heroclix. Then again, he can't be well represented in comics as well. Okay...

This guy has eye-lasers. This guys has frost-breath. Faster than a speeding (as opposed to one following the speed limit) bullet. More powerful... ya,ya,ya. Leap this. Fly that. Only hurt by this one rock. That is his description. Lets analyze that, now.

Eye-lasers - I'm a bad guy and if I press this button, the world will end. What does Supes do? "Umm... Could you not do that, please." What should he do - Shoot the darn bad guy.

Frost-breath - Same situation. Did you forget that you have these powers or what?

Faster than... - "Okay. I'm Superman. I can move faster than sound. But, even though I can, a bottom-of-the-line guy can still pimp-smack me. Sure, I'm fast enough to move out of the way, but I like me some pimp smackin'."

Stronger than... - "Dang you Luthor. You've tied me up in dental floss and the rest of the JLA (except for one member) are hanging over a pit of lava. I'll just sit and watch and hope for that one member to save us."

Leap tall buildings... - "I forgot that I can just fly right over them, so I decided to play leap-frog with it."

Kryptonite - This actually makes sense. If the yellow sun gives him power, then a green rock can kill him. Why don't you shoot the rock with your heat rays or freeze the guy holding it? Or just run from the glowing rock? No. Superman just stands there and waits for the guy to walk right up with it.

If you want a true-to-his-powers Superman clix, he would cost at least 1,000 pts. for his Rookie. However, since I have proved that even though he is the strongest man ever, he is just too "forgetful" to remember it. Therefore, his clix should have a 3 damage.

Batman is one of the smartest, most well trained individuals ever. He sees your weak point, then wails on you with razor-sharp bat-a-rangs and some of the most deadly martial arts known to man. But, he is still just an ordinary man. So, that warrants a 3 damage.

Spiderman is the same as Superman. Even though he can lift 400 tons, he rarely does so. If he hits with all his strength, the bad guy gets knocked out too quickly. No time to mouth-off. Spidey could knock you out in one punch, but what would be the fun in that. Peter can't go home to Aunt May and tell her a few one-liners about Doc Ock and Kraven. He likes to fight it out for a while. He should have 2 damage.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Fogs
Not QUITE Swayed by the three damage arguments.

I LIKE Spiderman, I really do, but I just can't see it guys. They only give Superman 3 damage....

a normal trained human Batman/Daredevil does 2 damage (Batman adds outwit so he could do his normal damage to even Superman) DD has Spidey senses all through his dial.
Spiderman is stronger then Batman/average trained fighter so he would have some clicks(2,3) of 3 damage.

Let me just start by saying I was fine with Spidey having only 2 damage UNTIL I saw Batman/nightwing having 3 !

Superman only doing 3 damage, well he should do 4 at least.

Scale (1 to 5):
1 damage Thugs, cops.
2 damage trained fighters Batman,DD

3 damage strong figs superhuman strenght Spiderman,Green Goblin.









4 damage ALL figs with Super Strenght,"godlike" powers: Thor,Superman etc.

5 damage Enraged Hulk,Silver surfer













of the scale: 5+ Galactus, etc.


aboot Superman only having 3 damage, well another design mistake !? I definately think so!

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by the itsy bit


a normal trained human Batman/Daredevil does 2 damage (Batman adds outwit so he could do his normal damage to even Superman) DD has Spidey senses all through his dial.
Spiderman is stronger then Batman/average trained fighter so he would have some clicks(2,3) of 3 damage.

Let me just start by saying I was fine with Spidey having only 2 damage UNTIL I saw Batman/nightwing having 3 !

Superman only doing 3 damage, well he should do 4 at least.

Scale (1 to 5):
1 damage Thugs, cops.
2 damage trained fighters Batman,DD

3 damage strong figs superhuman strenght Spiderman,Green Goblin.









4 damage ALL figs with Super Strenght,"godlike" powers: Thor,Superman etc.

5 damage Enraged Hulk,Silver surfer













of the scale: 5+ Galactus, etc.


aboot Superman only having 3 damage, well another design mistake !? I definately think so!

Finally...a sane person who understands the strength scale that I posted earlier. I totally agree with you itsy.

[Ironman1492]

batman only has the 3 damage because of his extensive training. He always knows the right spots to hit a person to do the maximum ammount of damage, instead of just comin out swingin. Spidey should have the three damage as well, just for his overall strength.

[BlackSpidey]

Well, I don't have a prob with 2dmg on Spidey, but with 3dmg on Bats/Nightwing. ANY unenhanced human, no matter how well trained, should peak at a two damage base. Even if it goes up to 3-4 through CCE, I don't think the BASE should exceed 2. Spiderman, thanks to his combat style, requires only two damage, however, they forgot one other thing in addition to Super Senses. Perplex. His off the wall style of fighting, combined with his unique banter, makes him a prime candidate for Perplex(but only a click or two). That way, he CAN do 3 damage(he is capable of doing so, see "Death by Tombstone", and you'll easily understand), but thanks to his usual fighting style, except in the most unusual circumstances, he'd be more likely to use it on their defenses, or something like his range.

- Black Spidey -

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Ironman1492
batman only has the 3 damage because of his extensive training. He always knows the right spots to hit a person to do the maximum ammount of damage, instead of just comin out swingin. Spidey should have the three damage as well, just for his overall strength.

Nope..
Batman has "only" 2 damage (in Heroclix this already means a substantial increase in damage over normal humans !).
Why is he better ?
because of his outwit !
OUTWIT is 1 of the, IF not the strongest power to have !!+ he CANNOT be shot !

with it he could hit Supes for the full 2 damage, him having 3 damage is overpowered !!
If you look at it he has a better chance vs. figs with INV and other powers then Spiderman (Batman with the 2 damage) !

[remywokeup]

Every one will agree that Spiderman should have had super-senses from the get-go. Right?

I think the most unfair part of Spiderman, however, is his low damage. A hydra operative, a guy in a suit with no super powers, can do as much damage as Spiderman, who can lift cars. There's something wrong here.

Logan can do 3, he isn't super-strong. Why can he do 3? I would say that he should be able to, but then I would have to say that Spidey should too.

Super-Strength will finally make him worth using, but not great. Spidey is tough, and he should be able to do 3 damage.

Perplex would be a great idea, definitely.

[remywokeup]

Here's my response to Batman.

Everyone says his 3 damage represents his expert fighting ability. These people are wrong. His outwit and close-combat expert abilities represent his skill. He know where to hit even the toughest guy to do damage, thus outwit. He is an expert hand to hand fighter, thus close-combat expert. Without these abilities, it represents his strength, and that strength does not warrant 3 damage.

Let me put it this way: Let's say someone outwits Batman's outwit. (not likely with his stealth, but possible) Now, without his wits, he is still able to clock Superman and hurt him? Fat chance!

Next, someone outwits his close-combat expert. This would represent Batman not being able to fight with his amazing skill. He can still do 3 damage? A travesty!

Batman without his powers and abilities should be a normal human, and therefore be able to do 2 damage, like normal humans have been limited to. Instead, he can bruise Doomsday wihtout any help from his skills. He is just strong enough in Heroclix. This is wrong.

[Aron]

Hmm.. Perhaps vet spidey should've had :

high attack, high defense 18 + (spidey senses), spiderman team
SS on his first click, perplex down his dial, outwit on his last 4 clix?

and still only had 2 damage?

[ToadROCKS]

whenever I think of vet. Spidey I think hes gonna take up my whole team. but his combat values are alright, but I still thin he's an easy target so I say no

[Badges2]

Originally posted by remywokeup
Let me put it this way: Let's say someone outwits Batman's outwit. (not likely with his stealth, but possible) Now, without his wits, he is still able to clock Superman and hurt him? Fat chance!

If you're going to market Batman's outwit as his intelligence, how can that truely be outwitted? An opposing Black Panther bases Batman and whispers that Superman's only weakness is iron? So he listens to the enemy and forgets all that he's learned and tries to shoot Superman with a regular bullet instead of kryptonite?

It's just a game people. If you start applying real-world physics and concepts to it, then I'm going to start a flame war. How can Juggy be carried by Wasp? Why can't Nightcrawler bring people along when he teleports? Why can't Spidey carry anyone while web-slinging? Etc...

You just have to let some things go.

[Aron]

Everyone who has leap climb I believe, has the capability of carrying other people with them (in the comics) with very few exceptions.

Batman often batgrapples, carrying other people out of harms way, spidey swings grabbing people and resucing them, hulk stuffs rick jones under his arm and leaps away, etc etc etc

I've always maintained that leap climb should've had a limited reduced form of a taxi ability built into it. That would've helped fix problems with certain figs in the first set Considerably.

Wasp carrying juggernaut aside, I still think a "characters with leap climb or super strength may carry a figure of lower point cost with them while moving" would've helped reduce reliance on cheap fliers, and made guys like spidey a bit more useful and accurate - without giving them something inapporpriate like flight. Note: That would've allowed Spidey to taxi Mr. Fixit, logan and eventually ghost rider? around, but not the regular hulk. She hulk could carry hercules, but not vice versa, but she hulk couldn't carry thing around (less accurate, but for simplicity's sake).

I cant see how a change in that entry on leap climb and SS could be abused, at least with leap climb anyway. But it would help reflect comic book physics, and characters much more accurately :P

[ohoni]

Well, ideally they should make a new Spiderman, "Web Swinging Spiderman".

He should be modeled as swinging on his webs.

He should be on a flying base, to represent his ability to swing around practically anywhere, and carry people.

He should have 18-15 defense through his clicks, all with super senses.

He should have charge in his first click, with 3 damage, then 2 damage from then on, until his last click, when he gets 3 damage again with flurry (to represent that "never say die" last burst he seems to get).

His movement rate should be higher than most Spideys, but without incapacitate or super strength, since he's less likely to shoot while swinging, and he rarely throws things at peaople, which is all SS means in heroclix.

[AlanSuperman]

I liked the way it looked, but the problems that I have been having are that the range is not enough. How is itthat he has teh same range as Mr Fantastic and then doesn't he get better range or something? I at least think that the range should have been a 6 instead of a 4. but then again, i didn't create it. :rolleyes:

I also agree with many in this thread. Spiderman shoudl have 3 damage.. Batmans damage is questionable, and Superman's damage should be a 4. Or at least have RCE. He does have heat vision with lazer point accuracy. And he should probbaly be able to do about the same amount of damage as Firelord.

[CaptainCarl]

i can live with the fact that spidey is only doin 2 damage but he does deserve at leat one click of 3 at the beggining

but the one thing i really wanted for him with 2 arrows of 6 range for that double incapacitate this would make him a good support piece for his price range and he doesnt need incapacitate all teh way down the dial to keep the cost a little low he does run out of webbing or resort to other tactics eventually

but i am glad he got spidersenses and i can see the defend ability on the first click cause he usually overrides the spidersense to save someone else which puts him into character

overall good

and i think their makin daredevil spot on hopefully he has an attack value of 10 to start he does have hightened senses

thecaptain