View Full Version : Redleg vs Xian round 2
Well...Xian and I are going head to head again Monday night. This thread will be a synopsis of teams and tactics regarding the forementioned game.
As before...online via Cabal City. 200 points.
The teams are different...coincidently...it's another version of Earth's Mightiest Heroes against those dirty Children of the Atom.
Me:
E Cyclops
E Wolfsbane
V Jean Grey
E Logan
Him:
E Captain America
U Wasp
R Thor
The map has not yet been determined.
The following is my analysis. Feel free to disagree and post why. The purpose of this is to enhance the learning process. It's posted so Xian can see my ideas and potentially counter them. No subterfuge here.
My strengths:
1) Firepower: Summers has the potential to shell out more damage than Thor and at greater range. Logan and Wolfsbane when in their good spots can be lethal
2) Support: I have the ability to heal and transfer damage...allowing a bit of flexibility.
My weakness:
1) Maneuver: One taxi...and she's not really a taxi.
2) Mass: I do not have the ability to attack with more than 2 characters. Although Firepower is a strength, my entire offensive team cannot be committed in one turn if needed.
His strengths:
1) Maneuver: With 2 flyers and the Avenger ability, he can come and go as he pleases. This can change the playing field almost every turn while my BTB baddies have to chase after them.
2) Mass: 2 leadership on a 200 point team composed of 3 characters means if needed he can attack with everybody.
3) Longevity: For lack of better terms...Cap is potentially immune to Cyclops due to cowardly Stealth. Wasp's defense of 19 will be a pain to attack. Thor has invulnerability which could negate a BCF attack and slightly soften and RCE attack.
His weaknesses:
1) Firepower (this is a very 'loose' weakness): Thor does a very respectable 3 damage but lacks extensive range to apply it (although his Maneuver strength will help). Cap and Wasp aren't powerhouses.
2) Support: No medic
My strategy to defeat him:
IMO, Thor is the biggest threat. 3 damage, running shot, and a good attack value. The goal is to nail him w/ a full force optic blast before he can apply his great powers. If I can connect, his RS disappears, his damage is reduced to 2, and his attack to 9.
Deployment and Survivability for Summers is very important. He's my prime taxi canidate...so I can move and shoot in the same turn. I'll want him in hindering terrain so Thor will need an 8 to smack him.
I'll commit Logan first, using Stealth to hide him and draw the main forces out. If Cap and Logan go toe to toe...it's Cap's funeral. Ideally, Thor and Logan meet first-this can bring Logan to a sweet spot and set me up for a Summer's Special
I forsee him using Wasp as a taxi for Thor over Cap...it's a better way to extend Thor's range. From there...she becomes a tie up piece and constant annoyance.
Wolfsbane is my flex piece and will be put in a tie up role or support role as needed. I would love for Wolfsbane to kill Cap...but I'm not counting on it. She can also be a damage battery for Cyclops or Jean Grey.
These are my thoughts...if somebody wants to comment on strategy or post other ideas...I look forward to hearing it.
Just adding a note, the map has been determined, and it'll be the official mansion one, from the Marvel starter, IIRC. I will be starting "outside" the mansion. I chose the map, hoping to capitalize on Cap's stealth, but now I'm not sure it was the best decision, as it funnels us into a pretty restricted area, where Logan and Wolfsbane might be lethal.
I agree with Redleg's assessment of our respective strengths and weaknesses. Additionally, he has an advantage in that he will never have any spare actions, reducing the temptation to push his characters. Running with slightly less that one character per 50 points, I find that I am frequently tempted to push, because I'm "wasting" actions. My advantage in maneuverability, I think, is pretty big in a small-point game. I'm sure most everyone knows that free move is excellent, but I find it to be an even bigger advantage as the game gets smaller. Rapid deployment that leaves you actions free to attack with is quite possibly the best ability you can have in this size game.
My biggest weakness, I think, is the range at which I am able to apply my character's firepower. Thor and Cap both have a range of 6, and Wasp has a range of 4. (And I can't believe Cap only has one attack bolt...that fig got so ripped off, in so many ways.) Cyclops easily out-ranges my figures, and Logan has Stealth for one click, potentially negating all of my ranged attacks. (Heh. Cowardly.)
I'll be playing this as if it is points-based, rather than last-man-standing (Redleg and I haven't actually discussed which it is supposed to be), as all of the games I've played to date have been operating under this assumption, pretty much. Therefore, I will not be adopting a turtle strategy, but may move into one later in the game, depending on how things go. If I've neutralized his main attackers, I can pull back and make him come to me. On the other hand, until I gain the advantage, it is in my best interests to press the attack, as I don't have a team built to defend, and with his greater range, he should be able to easily control the board if I adopt a defensive strategy too early (i.e. before Cyclops is KOed).
I actually hadn't thought of using Wasp to Taxi Thor, but it might be the best idea. Maybe I'll start out with her moving Cap, and then switch it up.
Cyclops is obviously the biggest threat, dealing 4 points of damage initially, followed by 3s (with RCE) the rest of the way down the dial. Ideally, I need to base him with someone, and then pound away. However, I doubt that I'll be able to get him separated enough from the rest of the force to do this with much success.
Biggest threat: Cyclops. However, he is, in theory, the most easily dealt with, if I can base him, particularly with Thor.
Secondary threat: Logan. With Stealth followed by Flurry, and 3 damage followed by BCF, Logan is a whole heap of hurtin'. However, he lacks maneuverability (barring TK), and after he's lost Stealth, can be easily taken care of from range. Also, he cannot trade clicks of damage with the other figures, so he is on his own (although he has pesky Regeneration) after Jean loses her click of Support.
None of my characters are completely immune to Logan and Wolfsbane's BCF, so Logan and Wolfsbane must be avoided in the early game. My target priorities (in order of preference) are Cyclops, Logan, Jean Grey, Wolfsbane.
My initial strategy will be to taxi Cap into the main entrance with Wasp, have Cap hide in some hindering terrain in order to control the space near the "fountain"; at the same time, Thor will move up to just outside the entrance, having picked up an object with which to bash someone. In all likelihood, I'll pass on the second turn, clearing everyone. Third turn is up for grabs, but with any luck, 2 of my 3 figures will be able to concentrate their fire on one of Redleg's pieces.
Analysis of my own figures:
Thor - the heavy-hitter for the team, he deals 3 damage initially, has Invulnerability for a while, Super Strength, and Running Shot for his first click. He is the most important figure to keep alive, as he can effectively deal with any of the opposing characters one-on-one...though being based by a BCF character will be risky.
Cap - even though I think the character got shorted, he's still an effective piece, and is a great harrassing figure. Stealth and a ranged attack in the mold of Batman (though not nearly as good...where's the Willpower?), he can run between pieces of hindering terrain in order to outflank opposing pieces and keep them from drawing a bead on him. His late Outwit can be critical, but he's basically useless as an attack figure at that point...it really only helps out the other team members. BCF and Regeneration are going to be primary targets for Outwitting, or RCE if Cyclops is still around and not based.
Wasp - an incredible taxi with a very high defense, Wasp may actually survive the longest of any of my figures if things go badly. Even Cyclops needs a 9 to hit her initial defense. Incapacitate is greatly underrated by many players...it's not something to base a team around, for the most part, but it can come in incredibly handy in certain tactical situations; something to keep in mind.
It's very important that I not push any of my figures, as, for the most part, their first clicks are the best (as is generally the case, I suppose), and I have no way of getting them back there. That being said, Cap may push late in the game to get to his Outwit clicks, and Thor may push in order to deal out a big hit if it seems advantageous. Logan is the only figure with damage-reducing powers, so once he is gone, the difference between Thor dealing 3 damage and 2 damage is lessened. I should pretty much never push Wasp, unless it's going to be game-breaking to do so...even then I have to consider it very carefully, as the drop in defense (from 19 to 17) is very significant.
Xian
Originally posted by Xian
Ideally, I need to base him with someone, and then pound away.
Just to note..as some people often overlook...Cyclops can still RCE Thor if the two are BTB thanks to the flyer/grounded ranged attack rule.
Although feel free to have Thor fly over on his own BTB w/ Summers so I can have the first shot. :)
Yeah, I remembered that at some point, but forgot to go back and correct. So I guess I'll be aiming to have Cap base him. :)
Stupid based/flying rules. I wouldn't mind having that one changed.
Xian
REVIEW
So the battle took place at 20:00 EST, the Avengers vs. the X-Men in the Marvel mansion map.
To recap, the teams were:
Xian-
E Captain America
U Wasp
R Thor
Redleg-
E Cyclops
E Wolfsbane
E Logan
V Jean Grey
I won't review the battle in detail, just note the phases.
The first few turns were all about positioning, as we both knew the advantage of range that Redleg had. I kept Thor well back, and picked up an object, with which to smash someone later. This was a poorly-planned decision, and led to much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The "mid-game" broke open when I moved Captain America from one hindering object to an adjacent one in an attempt to control the center of the map, forgetting that Cyclops couldn't use RCE and Running Shot together. Redleg was confused by my activity, but took advantage, and TKed Logan out into the center to smack Cap around, keeping Cyclops back for much of the game in a deadly yo-yo sort of formation. At the same time, I kept Thor back, hoping to get a big hit in without exposing him too much. Eventually, though, Redleg's superior range took its toll, and Thor took two nearly consecutive RCE hits for 4 points.
The endgame was pretty much a slow mop-up operation for Redleg. After Thor had gotten his one hit in on Logan, it was all downhill, especially after Wasp pushed off her first click to Incapacitate Logan and rolled snake-eyes.
End result: all of Xian's figures KO'ed, none of Redleg's KO'ed.
Lessons learned for Xian:
What looks like superior maneuverability on paper does not translate to such if the opposing team has superior range.
If you're considering using someone to taxi Thor (or Superman, or whoever with Flight and Super Strength) don't pick up an object, even if dealing 5 damage seems really really keen.
And finally, don't take the inside maps if you're hoping to outflank someone.
(Redleg will have to note what, if any lessons he learned.) :)
Things Redleg did well:
Controlled the pace of the battle, by holding back his big gun until needed.
Didn't take low probability shots with Logan (vs. Wasp, mostly) when he had the time to sit back and heal Cyclops back to maximum effectiveness for the killing shot.
Things I did well:
I'm having a tough time here. I thought I went in with a good plan, but it started to go south after I realized that Thor carrying an object couldn't do a whole lot...move 4 spaces and RS wasn't going to keep him away from Cyclops, and he couldn't get in range to take the first hit.
I think I maneuvered well early on, but I eventually got impatient, and moved Thor into a vulnerable position.
Late in the game, I feel that I used the abilities of my team well (Cap moving to block LOS with stealth, Wasp attempting to Incapacitate at useful times...if she had hit), but beyond that, not much went right for me. In general, I think I made good use of the terrain.
Things to improve on, for Redleg:
The only thing that springs to mind is that I think that initial setup could have been better. The first turn or two were spent maneuvering around to get Logan next to Jean Grey, and using Cyclops to give her a better LOS (by blowing away a wall). If they had simply started together in the first place, the first turn could have been more aggressive.
Things to improve on, for Xian:
Remember not to push unless it's absolutely necessary with a team of this sort of make-up.
Continue working on awareness of range and LOS.
We're planning on making this a weekly thing, so look for more next Monday...300 points next time. Hopefully I can offer more of a challenge next time. Feel free to comment, etc.
Xian
Greetings,
I'm not sure the specifics of the Thor+weapon melodrama, but I have been in similar situations before. An awareness of competing ranges is highly important, but also remember you can always throw an object. If you have the time to spare chucking the object at a wall to get it out of your hands is a viable alterantive. (Though I really wish rules allowed you to just set the durn things down.)
Regards, and enjoying these self-analysis interludes,
Thor.
erkuther
02/18/2003, 12:04
I feel your pain Xian, many a time Ive picked up objects, only to regret it later in the battle when I want to taxi that object holding hero into battle.
Looks like the main thing that hurt you was that he hat 2 major offensive threats in Logan and Cyclops, while you only had a single threat in Thor. He also had more characters then you which can make it more difficult to base him, especially in a indoors environment. All in all, you did the best you could and horrible dice rolls will defeat even the most careful planning.
cheers
kuth
Again, starting discussion by looking at the teams:
>Redleg
>E Cyclops
>E Wolfsbane
>V Jean Grey
>E Logan
This team is a pretty standard 200 point X-Man team that has significant strengths--good long range firepower, brutal close range firepower, the ability to actually take advantage of the X-Man ability, some TK taxi power, and support. It suffers from only ever getting to take 2 actions a turn, but generally it'll do ok.
>Xian
>E Captain America
>U Wasp
>R Thor
Xian's team, on the other hand (no offense to Xian :-) is fraught with design problems. Only 3 figures in a 200 point team means you are going to be losing actions in the long run to avoid pushing, especially when you want to avoid pushing like you do (what with U Wasp and R Thor degrading significantly on their second click). Everyone is an Avenger, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but with only 3 figures and all of them Avengers, you aren't maximizing action use. 2 figures with leadership when, technically, you don't even need one. Oh, the horror!
:-)
Anyways, the way I probably would have built this 200 point team would be something like:
R Thor 109
E Panther 36
E Wasp 33
R Yellowjacket 22
I wanted to get a medic in there, but there really isn't a good way with R Thor involved. There are 2 Avengers, 4 units total (3 of whom fly), and Thor, Panther, and Wasp are all reasonable combat units. There isn't any leadership, but with only 4 figures of which 2 are Avengers, you generally won't need it, but you do get outwit, which is always good. Wasp can carry Thor around till he gets a good RS opportunity, and YJ can tote Panther from hindering terrain to hindering terrain, looking for an opportunity to swoop in an claw someone to death.
Just make sure Thor doesn't pick anything up early...
-Peter
Originally posted by bakija
Xian's team, on the other hand (no offense to Xian :-) is fraught with design problems.
None taken. You know I'm only here to improve my skills as a player. Well, and to read your witty comments. History, indeed. :) Anyway, I greatly appreciate your comments, Peter.
Anyway, I knew it would had trouble, I just really liked the way it looked. Cool and all. Themed, with being Avengers. Cap + Thor. This is a 200-point version of a 300-point team I've used successfully against the locals (and that team includes E Black Panther...and either E Hercules or V Hawkeye, depending on how I'm feeling that morning), and I thought it'd be interesting to try out. And I wanted to see if my esteemed opponent would be foolish enough to play something that could hardly get through Invulnerability again. Heh.
<<snip Peter's suggested team>>
Yellowjacket? :P
There hasn't been an agreed-upon "we're going to play themed teams" for these duels, but I think that for the most part, we're trying to experiment with under-utilized figures and teams in order to see what comes up. Thus Captain America, my particular weakness.
I haven't completely made up my mind for next week's round, but I think I'm going to play something DC villain-oriented. Except for the taxis. Stupid DC and its dearth of evil flying figures.
Xian
Xian wrote:
>>Yellowjacket? :P>>
Hey! Her outfit wan an Avenger, wasn't it?
Ok. Truly, I am completely unfamiliar with the female YJ, but heck, Wasp would have been probably better off with her anyway...
>>There hasn't been an agreed-upon "we're going to play themed teams" for these duels, but I think that for the most part, we're trying to experiment with under-utilized figures and teams in order to see what comes up. Thus Captain America, my particular weakness.>>
Oh, Captain America. If only he were slightly better. I did the math using one of the reverse engineered point cost formulae (and who knows if those are anty good), but it would only cost *one* extra point for America to have 3 damage for his first click. 48 points, and suddenly E America becomes good. Sad, really.
>>I haven't completely made up my mind for next week's round, but I think I'm going to play something DC villain-oriented. Except for the taxis. Stupid DC and its dearth of evil flying figures. >>
Hey! Weather Wizard rocks! Oh, wait. Never mind. That is just me lying.
-Peter
First off...great team building fundamentals from Peter and Thor brings up a great point on ditching that object...something I would never have considered (very outside the box).
Anyways...upward and onward...and I want to preface all of this by saying Xian did indeed have some terrible rolls.
I waited a bit to respond to this-I wanted to make certain my thoughts were collected. Starting off, when the teams were revealed, I thought I had a decent chance of winning (Xian posted his team first although I did not create one to combat his). When he chose the indoor map, I thought my same chances had vanished.
Here's why:
Everybody was in agreement that his strength was Maneuver and mine was Firepower. Playing in the indoor mall, with all the halls and rooms would allow him to maneuver into cover by taxing behind corners and walls. This would shield him from a full frontal optic blast and grant first strike ability-Wasp carries Thor to safety behind a wall. Thor moves out next turn carrying Wasp and does a running shot at Cyclops. This could even have become deadlier if Xian waited a turn to clear Wasp's token...Thor RS w/Wasp in tow. Wasp then moves and ties up Cyclops OR carries Thor to safety.
Captain America (who we all seem to agree did not perform as needed) stays in Stealth to 'threaten' the main area or act as bait for Logan.
With the exception of Captain America, Xian couldn't pull this off. Both teams spent phase 1 setting up and phase 2 heading straight towards each other. My maneuver weakness wasn't exploited. Xian's maneuver strength wasn't utilized. And since we were two freight trains on a collision course...firepower won the day.
To his credit, Xian used his Captain America well-he was Wolfsbane. A terrain and tie up piece that gains outwit. The problem was Cap wasn't used fully in this role until after Thor had taken a beating.
Lessons learned/reinforced:
1) Gotta play to your strengths. Shoot and move or move and shoot. Xian's team and terrain were perfect for this. Invulnerability is good...but no LOF from your opponent is even better.
2) Decisive place at the decisive time. If Cap is going to tie up a piece or control ground...he needs to do it in order to allow Thor to do his magic. Play it so the characters are mutually supporting.
Any other thoughts?
Originally posted by Redleg
Anyways...upward and onward...and I want to preface all of this by saying Xian did indeed have some terrible rolls.
This is probably going to be my last comment on this thread, as it doesn't seem like that many people are interested, and I don't want to keep popping it up to the top without good reason. Anyway, yes, I did have some unfortunate luck with the "dice", but I don't want to claim that as an excuse...I mean, the dice are going to do well some days, and poorly others. That being said, I think I had two boxcars when rolling for leadership during the game, and virtually none of my attacks hit. Oh, and there was, of course, Wasp's critical failure on the push. :)
With the exception of Captain America, Xian couldn't pull this off. Both teams spent phase 1 setting up and phase 2 heading straight towards each other. My maneuver weakness wasn't exploited. Xian's maneuver strength wasn't utilized. And since we were two freight trains on a collision course...firepower won the day.
Upon further reflection, it was a combination of my failure to exploit my maneuverability and my failure to recollect that RCE doesn't work with Running Shot. That is primarily what kept me from committing Thor to the battle early on. My initial maneuvers reflected this, as I moved Thor up to a spot where he couldn't be hit if Jean TKed Cyclops and Cyclops tried a Running Shot on my first and second turns. What I should have done is had Wasp taxi Cap up, have Thor end up next to them, clear, and then have Wasp Taxi Thor into the room on the "south" side of the main hall. By getting stuck on the RCE/RS thing, I ignored that I could run around corners on the south side of the map, and was trying to figure out how to get Thor to move around the north side of the fountain to hit someone for a lot of damage.
I have really got to remember that although RCE is trouble, it's not as scary as it seems at first.
And, once again, I have to remember that although 5 damage is really nice, it's better to remain maneuverable if possible.
Thanks for the comments, everyone.
Xian
Emperor Kang
02/19/2003, 12:05
Xian - don't assume that just because people don't post replys that they aren't interested. My favorite posts are those that show others games. It helps everyone learn.
I hope you do continue to post these matches weekly. Thanks.
I second that. I'm really enjoying them. I just wish I had time to play online myself. Maybe next week...
erkuther
02/19/2003, 13:16
I agree with Kang, I always like viewing other people’s battles, even though I don't necessarily post to them. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to play with all the different team ideas I come up with, so I have to live vicariously through other peoples battles.
Keep up the good work!
never mind the bullocks,
kuth
See Xian...we're not the only two that are strategy geeks.
My new post for upcoming Monday's brawl will soon follow. Anybody who's reading our talks...please comment on my new 300 pt Marvel team...
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