Abomination

[WytchKnight]

"If" the next Xpansion has the hulks arch enemy in it, The Abomination, what do you think his stats would look like?
Hopefully they will do him justice. He is stronger than the hulk normally, well, that is until the hulk gets really P.O.ed then of course the hulk gets stronger. Just interested in seeing what the stat hounds out there think.

[Melkoloran]

I'd have Abomination start higher but finish lower than Hulk in damage.

[cyberdragon]

Abomination should have a few - more than 2 or 3 - slots of Invulnerability and then toughness.

I think he should do 4 damage for a while then 3. Maybe 5 on the first clix? Maybe 2 on the last 1 or 2 clix?

Charge and Super-Strength.

He is not known for jumping but he is strong enough to climb walls and such. One specific Hulk cover from the 70s comes to mind... so maybe a bit of LC? But that may be stretching it a bit.

Deep dial. Tough cookie.

Battle fury? Nah. Pretty much kept his witts about him when he fought. Unlike the Hulk who kept totally blowing gaskets all the time. :D

[WytchKnight]

Do you think he might be one of the first marvel characters to get Impervious? They introduced some of the DC powers in the last expasion. Just a matter of time before impervious crosses over.

[Earnan]

I don't think that Impervious will make it to Marvel. Nor do I think that Close Combat Expert will. By extension, I doubt Invulnerability and B/C/F will make it to DC.

I like the idea that the universes do have different powers. It keeps some differentiation between the two.

Adding those powers would just be redunadant, in my mind. And, if they add them, they'll have to go back and redo a number of characters. Thing should get Impervious (which, admittedly, would mean that him and She-Hulk would then actually be different :) ), Captain America CCE. Just for example. :)

I'd rater they come up with some new powers entirely rather than move powers from universe to universe. (C'Mon, IndyClix! Show us new stuff!!)

WarlordEarnan

[cyberdragon]

Would make sense if they give it to (Savage) Hulk also.

But then you have to worry about Juggernaut, Thor, Thing, the original Hulk, etc. not having it. :p

[WytchKnight]

The reason that powers are seperate now is that up until the last minute DC refused to let Wizkids make DC and Marvel clix compatable. Someone changed their mind. We already have like 4 versions of electra. I don't see the harm in going back and redoing some characters like juggernaut with a impervious power. Combat master is going to eventually come into Marvel, its unaviodable when you have characters like Iron fist, Taskmaster (possible pinapple), and nameless others runnin around out there.

[Aron]

Re: Abomination

I sincerely doubt he will be "AE" to hulk.

Leader is much more of an AE to the hulk, and it would make more sense that he would be a new hulk's arch enemy. Since The Leader and Abomination have worked together (at least on TV) it would make sense that only one of them would have a Hulk AE base (in this set)

My money is on Abomination Not being AE to hulk.

[kang]

If abomination is the AE of Hulk then why is there a RUMOR that the *leader* is the AE for Hulk? Does that mean that abomination and hulk can be on the same team

[cyberdragon]

Yep. Abomination and Hulk have fought together in the past. In the 70s again.

Abomination convinced Hulk that they were both monsters and should band together. Or something like this.

And I believe thay may have had one or two decent conversations in the more recent past.

While Leader and Hulk, as far as I recall, have always been bitter ennemies.

So my guess is Leader will be the AE.

[Steve Shady]

C'mon guys, we all KNOW leader and abomo are in it, thanks to various sources and that spoiler list.

Byt as far as AE goes, My pick is both of em. If not, Abomonation. I mean, when you look at Leader and Abomo, you clearly see whos the bigger threat to Hulk.

BTW, does any one that comic where that giant old man with a costume transports spidey, hulk, and others to a planet to fight, and wolvie kicks abomo's hide?

Not sure if anyone else had it... It was a spiderman magazine exclusive thing.

[WytchKnight]

I dont know if Hulk will have an AE in clix. None of his bases are colored. As for in the comics...while leader is a pain in the behind, Hulks most passionate battles have been fought with Abomination. Abomination killed Betty Banner and now Bruce Banner unknowingly slept with Abominations wife, which Abomination saw via satellite feed. As far as pure hatred goes the arch enemy status belongs to Abomination and Hulk. The Leader is more just a time to time thorn in hulks side in the comics. I dont know about the cartoon, I dont watch it.

[Steve Shady]

whoa. Hulk slept with Abomo's wife? Yup, they are most surely arch enemies.

[cyberdragon]

Hmm. Seems I remember Bronze Age events better than events that took place in the last few years. :o

From that angle, I guess maybe Abomination and Hulk should be AEs. :)

Now if I can just remember what I was doing before posting this... :D

[Aron]

Like I said - Abomination and leader haven't had AE status together.. so it can't be both. One or the other, not both.

[WarHULK]

The whole Banner Sleeping with Abomination's wife thing was in this month's comic so that's WAY to recent to base the AE argument on. Leader is the classic Hulk villian. Abomination has become a big deal within the last few years... but I'd say that's because he's defaulted the position since the Leader is dead (head blew up, it kept growing bigger and bigger, crazy story from afew years ago). I love the Abomination as much as the next Hulk freak but the Leader has been around since almost the begining.

Having Abomination be Hulk's AE is like having Omega Red be Wolverine's AE instead of Sabretooth. Sure, you could argue a point for it, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty Sabretooth deserves that spot much more. See where I'm coming from?

[Jackalope]

Originally posted by Earnan
I don't think that Impervious will make it to Marvel. Nor do I think that Close Combat Expert will. By extension, I doubt Invulnerability and B/C/F will make it to DC.

I like the idea that the universes do have different powers. It keeps some differentiation between the two.

Adding those powers would just be redunadant, in my mind. And, if they add them, they'll have to go back and redo a number of characters. Thing should get Impervious (which, admittedly, would mean that him and She-Hulk would then actually be different :) ), Captain America CCE. Just for example. :)

I'd rater they come up with some new powers entirely rather than move powers from universe to universe. (C'Mon, IndyClix! Show us new stuff!!)

WarlordEarnan

I can't believe you are a Judge and said this. You should know there are no "marvel" or "DC" powers. There are just powers. Both DC and Marvel (and soon to be Indy and whatever they get the licence to) will all be under the "HEROCLIX" title. There are only 1 set of powers. period. So far the powers you've said have only been in their respective sets but Wizkids has said there is no reason why they can't be in the others and I'm sure we will see that.

[Jean_genie]

First off .... as much as I like Earnan, just because he's a judge doesn't make him smarter than us, better than us, or mean that his interpretations are any more likely to be true. What it means is that he's SUPPOSED to know the rules better, so he tries to do that ..... Being a judge doesn't mean he's an infallible, non-human entity, nor does it mean we should mock him if he's wrong. That said, I don't think he is.

As far as the powers thing goes, I seem to recall hearing that certain powers just won't make in into Marvel from DC, or the other way 'round. I could be wrong though, or maybe I heard it from a bad source .... whatever. But it makes sense to me as far in Inv/Imp, even if ther CCE part is a little bit of a stretch. There are plenty of characters in Marvel that should have CCE (okay, only a few .... mostly Cap and Daredevil), but Invulnerability usually works just fine to represent the powers. The only character I actually prefir Impervious on is Darkseid - but that's only because I only use him in mixed, and I can have a Black Cat nearby to help him out.

Anyway. I digress. Rather frequently, in fact. WizKids has stated that Marvel and DC are two different game systems, and thewy have reinforced this with the differences is stats/powers, and the fact that they don't allow prize support at any mixed tournaments. You can even play Mage Knight with HeroClix - the system is almost the same, and most of the powers are the same. I've found that if you jack up the price of the MK figures and pretend the 'clix have arcs, it's almost the same game. But that doesn't mean that they're meant to be expansions of each other and more than it means that the next Hulk model with have the "Ram" and "Magic Immunity" powers.

[malchyor]

actually, incorrect there, jean...

wizkids has constantly reinforced that all heroclix lines are part of the same system, able to be played between the lines. the fact that the lines are somewhat marketted separately is what causes the prize support to be left separate as well.

[Jean_genie]

I could be very wrong again, but in everything I've read, I don't ever remeber WizKids stating that the games are meant to be played together. I remember them saying many things about how they are "part of the same system", but thjat could just mean they all use the combat dial. I seem to remember WizKids always implying, but carefully avoiding the statement that the games are meant to be played together. I think somebody said DC didn't want the games fully compatible, or something? Anyway.

[WarHULK]

Even if not all the abilities make their way to each set it doesn't make them less compatible. You're asuming that to be all the same game line they all have to end up with all the same abilities. I'd personally like to see every ability come over to Marvel (except for Impervious) but who knows.

[Jean_genie]

Actually, Jackalope was the one that said all the powers are both Marvel and DC .... I said that they could work under either system, but they're a little different to add to the differentness(is that a word?) of the two systems. Again, feel free to remind me of an interview I missed or something, but I remember the powers/abilities/stats/prize support being different to add to the idea that DC and Marvel are two seperate universes, rather than expansions of ach other. Do you really think DC would say "Sure WizKids, you can use our characters as an expansion to the Marvel game." I'm sure DC demanded (as any company would), that steps be taken to differentiate their game from Marvel's. Assuming that is the case, WizKids couldn't make any claims that the figures are interchangable, but there have been plenty of hints.

[WarHULK]

I wasn't talking about you Jean, but feel free to get defensive :D

[Jean_genie]

Eh. It happens :)

Maybe I'll just mosey on out of this discussion for a while ....

[Jackalope]

Read this:

DC - Marvel Compatability (http://forum.wizkidsgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=21153)

(point 6 is what we are talking about here). Also read the responses from the volunteer's (a.k.a. judges).

Most importantly:

A sanctioned tournament must be either Marvel or DC. However, a house rule may be employed allowing the universes to be mixed, and the mention of compatibility is meant to assure players that the two games (Marvel and DC) are based on the same system and should be balanced together.

Where the compatability came from is:

Wizkids site - FAQ (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/howtoplay.asp?cid=36403)

Read under "Compatibility":

All HeroClix expansions are compatible with all other HeroClix expansions. HeroClix is a single game system with a single set of rules.

[WarHULK]

Yes, but that still doesn't say that every strain of Heroclix will get all the same abilities. Same rules, possibly different PACs. All of which will be compatible however. The introduction of a DC figure with CCE doesn't unbalance a mostly Marvel game. That's what I understand. I'm not saying that not all the abilities will come to each set, I'm just saying that there's nowhere that says they will.

[Earnan]

First off, I'd like to say that reactions like Jackalopes are one of the reasons I have not signed in as a Warlord/BM on MKRealms and MWRealms. I have no problem acting up to a higher standard based on my Volunteer contract while on the forums, it stops me from flaming people when I really, really want to. Probably a good thing.

What I don't like is that I was told that I should not have my opinion BECAUSE I'm a Judge. The fact that I volunteer my time trying to create a positive gaming community shoudl not be thrown in my face to try and prove that I'm wrong and you're right.

That being said, I'll defend my points, since while I like Jean_genie, and he tried, luckily for him he isn't inside my mind. It's scary here... :)

Jackalope, your point is missing the mark. You point out that a house rule may be implemented to allow a mixed game. With the crackdowns that WK is making in MK and MW, and the fact that they are eluding to rankings for HC, I don't think that this is going to be allowed for much longer. Wait a couple weeks, we'll find out for sure.

Your main point is that this is one game system. It is. HeroClix can be adapted for any comic book heroes. That's cool, and why I like it. Maybe I should have been more specific in my post. Maybe what I should have said was "I don't think that certain powers from the DC expansion of HeroClix will make it into a Marvel expansion."

Personally, I play only Marvel. My Venue sells a miniscule amount of DC, so I recently scheduled my second DC tournament, compared to the 3-4 a month I've been running for Marvel since May. I don't agree with mixed universe games. For tournament play, I think that the sets are only balanced by the playtesters (and please, let's not start a playtesting argument) with figures from their own universe. I have a feeling that the Wildcard team ability will cost more in DC than Marvel since the Team abilities are stronger.

Like I said in my original post, I personally don't see a need for Impervious to be in the same Universe as Invulnerability, and CCE in the same Universe as BCF. There is a much greater difference between Marvel and DC comics than just characters, why shouldn't the game using these characters have a few differences too?

WarlordEarnan

[Earnan]

Finally got into the first thread you posted...

As I said in my post, house rules are a totally different beast. You literally can do anything you want, as long as the house rule is posted in advance. I could let BCF do 2d6 clicks of damage at a tournament, or rule that any figure with RCE be melted. I wouldn't, but I COULD. That DC and Marvel CAN be played together really proves nothing.

Of course, all this is only relevant to Sanctioned Tournament play. If your just playing for fun, go gonzo. Do whatever you want. :)

WarlordEarnan

[Jackalope]

what is *official* off the wizkids site is:

All HeroClix expansions are compatible with all other HeroClix expansions. HeroClix is a single game system with a single set of rules.

1 set of rules. Thats all I was saying. They have stated that they are FULLY compatible with each other.

I'm sorry if you took my post as a flame I was just honestly surprised that you'd say what you said. *shrugs*

People were up in arms because Sinestro had a grey power on attack. Since no where on "just DC" stuff is there a grey power on attack people were confused. They just didn't include it (mistake I guess) in the Sinetro rule card. All the powers can (and I think will) cross over from what some people are thinking as "exclusive" to one universe to the other. I guess before Sinestro Telek was Marvel only.

Anyway sorry to get you all wrang up and upset. I'll just leave this thread alone and let you all get back to it.

[WytchKnight]

I didn't see diddly wrong with Jackalopes post. They stated the facts... didn't rub anything in anyones face. If your too sensitive to be confronted with a different opinion then cease participation on a DISCUSSION board. If not enjoy the stimulating conversation. Jackalope did nothing to merit a repremand other than challenge your view. In the words of men on film, "Don't be mad 'toine".
Now back to the topic at hand. Impervious can exist in a universe with invulnerable. You have characters than can take a beating, some that can take a bullet, others that can take a building falling on them, and some that can survive nuclear blasts. What is the harm in intergrating the different levels of defense? I don't think just because one is Marvel and the other DC that it should have "exclusive"powers. Superheros are superheros. If Marvel bought DC tomorrow we wouldn't even be talking about if the powers were shared it would be a matter of when the powers would be shared. What happens if the Amalgem universe is made into a clix set? I can promise you that all the powers are going to be intergrated.

[Veggiehater]

Originally posted by Jean_genie
There are plenty of characters in Marvel that should have CCE (okay, only a few .... mostly Cap and Daredevil)

Hey you're forgetting Spider-Man! ;)

Spidey could use CCE since he deals a whole lot more damage with his fists than his webbing. This way they could give him the potential to deal 3+ damage (1-2 + CCE) without feeling completely "un-Spidey like."

Just my opinion,
VH

[Jean_genie]

Originally posted by Jackalope


I can't believe you are a Judge and said this....

Yeah, that is just stating the facts WytchKnight .... there's NO WAY anyone could find that offensive!

As far as Spidy and CCE goes, I don't think I'd give it to him until his 4th click or so .... for his first 3 clicks I'd give him 2 damage and Inc, and then 1 damage with CCE and Inc, and then just 1 damage with CCE. I don't see him pummling away at people until after he tries tying them down first.

[Jackalope]

A little birdy told me you created an R/E/V version of "hungry" Galactus for a goof. Care to tell us a little about it?

[Jon Leithusser] Yeah, I did do that. Everyone was making noise that they'd like to see one and I was curious as to how he might look, so I wrote him up. I honestly don't think he'll ever get made because any game with him involved would take too long and include too many points. I'm sure everyone thinks it would be 'kewl' and all, but it probably won't happen. Sorry, I'd like to see it, too.

Anyway, here's how he is with just a single pass-through, no editing, so point-balancing, just what I thought right out of the gate: Rookie is 925 points and 19 clicks long, Experienced is 1055 and 22 clicks long, and Veteran is 1447 and 25 clicks long. He starts out doing 5 clicks of damage, has a 20 defense with Impervious, a 15 attack value, Outwit, Energy Explosion, and I'm sure he would change entirely if I were to go through and do him again. He'd also have a bunch of new rules that applied only to him that would increase his number of attacks as well as other things.

Had to ask...if there are "marvel only" powers and "DC only" powers ... why would Jon Leithusser (HC lead developer) give Galactus Impervious? If you thought I was being sarcastic with my comment Jean read it again. It was surprise.

1 set of ruels....powers are part of the rules.

Glad I came back 1 more time to see what was said.

Take care folks.