A Friendly Chat With Jon Leithusser

[GroovyBoy]

With a lot of the hotter topics from this board in mind, I e-mailed Jon Leithusser a bunch of questions and he was kind enough to respond. So with no further ado...


How long have you been the lead developer for HeroClix? Which figures were the first ones with your stats?

[Jon Leithusser] I started working in the game development department about a year ago while I was also the Advertising and Public Relations Manager. I was hired as a Game Designer around March or April of 2002. I don't know what my exact date was because I was doing both jobs for a while.

The first figures that I had any input on in the design sense were the first DC set, but all I was able to do was give a Changeling, Swamp Thing, and Arcane the Aquatic speed symbol and muck around a very little bit with some powers. Anyway, that was the first set I did anything on. The first set I designed from start to finish was Clobberin' Time. I remember that specifically because I thought it would be cool to get the Fantastic Four into one set together, and make them so they'd add up to 200, 300, and 400 points at their Rookie, Experienced, and Veteran levels.


A lot of HC players seem to think that Firelord is a "broken" figure who either wasn't playtested enough or wasn't playtested at all. What can you tell us about that?

[Jon Leithusser] I didn't design Firelord, but I know the designer at the time, Jeff Quick, was very concerned about him. He playtested him all the time and eventually we determined that he was tough, but not a major concern. Honestly, he was never that big of a threat in the games we played. Hit him a couple of times and he's gone. Sure, some players can control the board in such a way that it's hard to make that happen, but he's not as broken as people seem to think. If I had my druthers (heh, I said druthers), he'd be maybe 10-15 points more than he is now, but that's all.

I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think. Is that a mean thing to say? I dunno, but there are so many interesting characters and combinations of powers and abilities that it seems a shame to say, "Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic." Yippee. What fun. I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire. I think in noncompetitive play is really where HeroClix is the most fun. Build your team, run up and beat the snot out of each other until there's a clear winner. That's how the comics work.

Actually, it's pretty funny to hear all the fans complain about how this or that character is interpreted on its dial because it doesn't match continuity, but then when you watch these people play it's anything goes. The way they play looks nothing like comic battles -- fly in carrying a character, fire a blast, then fly back to be healed by the medic. LAME! Show me a comic where that happens.

I guess those are some of the sacrifices that are made when you interpret a comic (or any property) into a game. Something has to give on both sides for it to work.


How much can a figure change in terms of stats or powers in the playtesting phase? Could you provide any examples?

[Jon Leithusser] A lot of that depends on the feedback from the playtesters. In some cases I'm looking for answers to specific questions -- like how a certain figure performs, or how a certain combination of powers is working -- other times it's just looking for feedback in general.

As for a specific example; well, it's hard to pick something specific. Sometimes the playtesters raise some good points about a character's abilities that make me rethink and revisit the character to change points and powers around. This happened on Blastaar, Thor, all of the Fantastic Four members, Avalanche, and many more. In fact, the new DC set that I'm working on now has gone through some serious reworkings on a couple of key characters because of comments from playtesters.


What's the deal with all the Wolverine figures? Does Hugh Jackman have compromising photos from the WizKids' Christmas party? And Elektra?

[Jon Leithusser] You've found out the real reason!

Um, no, that's not it. The reason why we have a handful of repeat characters is because they're important figures to Marvel. We don't have any sort of contractual obligation to them about which characters we'll include, it's just a matter of making sure the key characters are in each set. If you were new to the game when Xplosion was released you'd want to have a chance of getting Spider-Man, the Hulk, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Elektra in the newest set. I know Elecktra is sort of reaching in some people's opinions, but she's a big part of the new movie and she's a popular character. Plus, it's always good to have a strong female character.

In addition, there are plenty of versions of some of those characters, each of which plays and acts differently on the board.


Who are some of your favorite figures? Why do you dig them?

[Jon Leithusser] I like characters more than figures, so when I play I tend to use characters I like as opposed to the most effective characters. I'm sure that seems silly to many players, but I don't play the game to win, I play for fun. I don't care if I lose.

I also like to play with different combinations of abilities to see how they'll work together, so I might choose characters that have Blades/Claws/Fangs, Support, and Perplex, or any other combination of powers, just to see how they work together.


A little birdy told me you created an R/E/V version of "hungry" Galactus for a goof. Care to tell us a little about it?

[Jon Leithusser] Yeah, I did do that. Everyone was making noise that they'd like to see one and I was curious as to how he might look, so I wrote him up. I honestly don't think he'll ever get made because any game with him involved would take too long and include too many points. I'm sure everyone thinks it would be 'kewl' and all, but it probably won't happen. Sorry, I'd like to see it, too.

Anyway, here's how he is with just a single pass-through, no editing, so point-balancing, just what I thought right out of the gate: Rookie is 925 points and 19 clicks long, Experienced is 1055 and 22 clicks long, and Veteran is 1447 and 25 clicks long. He starts out doing 5 clicks of damage, has a 20 defense with Impervious, a 15 attack value, Outwit, Energy Explosion, and I'm sure he would change entirely if I were to go through and do him again. He'd also have a bunch of new rules that applied only to him that would increase his number of attacks as well as other things.

He's so far outside the realm of usability that he's silly. Anyway, I think investing 1000 points in a figure so you can take a couple of actions, then sitting back while your opponent(s) takes ten actions is boring.


Would you need Alan Moore's permission to make a set of Watchman figures? Would you like to do them? Why or why not?

[Jon Leithusser] From what I hear, yes we would. Personally, I don't want to do those figures. The characters are great, but they wouldn't live up to their reputations because most of them are normal people with training. They work wonderfully in the comics, but in the game they might disappoint and I don't want to do that to those characters.


Any chance of seeing Kingdom Come or Universe X figures in the future?

[Jon Leithusser] Maybe. Anything is fair game. It's just a matter of making sure there are enough people out there to support a set that includes such characters.

I also have to take into account playability. Most characters work just fine, Galactus doesn't, Superman 1,000,000 doesn't, Ego the Living Planet doesn't, the Endless don't, etc. Yes, there are a lot of cool characters; are they all adaptable to the game? No.


The issue of taxi-ing has been a subject of debate for quite some time now. What's your opinion on the tactic? Considering how prevalent it is, do you think the Green Lantern team ability will be too powerful?

[Jon Leithusser] I think it's lame (as you can probably tell from my comments above). Sure, it's perfectly valid in terms of the rules, but the intent of the rule was to make it easy to get characters into combat faster, not as a cheesy way to move in and out of battle. No one fights like that in the comics. Personally, I'd like to see it go away entirely just to avoid those tactics. Practically speaking, I may do something about it, but I haven't decided what or when. Whatever happens, it'll be playtested first, then released, then everyone can complain about how it crippled the game.

I don't think the Green Lantern ability is too powerful because everyone who has it will be very expensive. There are no wussy Green Lanterns.


Which comic titles do you currently enjoy the most?

[Jon Leithusser] Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man, Authority, Planetary, all of the America's Best Comics, Flash, Powers, Usagi Yojimbo, and many more. I don't have my recent purchases in front of me, so I'm sure I'm forgetting some.


What do you remember about the camping trip to Devil's Lake?

[Jon Leithusser] Climbing a sapling, J.D. starting the bottom of his shoes and fire, J.D. looking into the fire and chanting, "Go! Go! Go! Go!", you, Brian, getting stuck while rock climbing and needing to be rescued by a cute girl, and finally, you crawling out of the tent late at night and puking right in front of it. Nice. Thanks for calling up some pleasant college memories.

Thanks!
[Jon Leithusser] You bet. Thank you, too!


For the record, I would like to point out that my boots were the ones that caught on fire, and that Jon left out the most embarrassing part of my camping weekend.

[MarkFinn]

Nice to get some more feedback on recent topics regarding rules, cheese, and figure speculation!

[Ro-gan]

Excellent interview! Finally we know WizKids is hearing the players's opinions.

[scowlingone]

"...In fact, the new DC set that I'm working on now..."

Well, at least we know that it's not dead.

[Manchine]

Have to say I like the way he handles his wording. So at least we know the DC is being worked on. :D :p ;)

[onew0rd]

I apologize in advance for this. I know everyone must be sick of the Firelord hate but I refuse to let this slide without responding.Hit him a couple of times and he's gone. Sure, some players can control the board in such a way that it's hard to make that happen, but he's not as broken as people seem to think.

Genius strategy: "Hit him a couple of times..." Am I the only one who thinks this is the least thought out and most inane comment ever?

Can someone just come out and be honest? Why is he or anyone else trying to justify an obvious error? Players are at fault for playing the best (by a light year or two) figure made? Because, let's be honest there is nothing in the ballpark that packs the punch and has the power of a Firelord for 81 points. The guy insults anyone who ever plays firelord because they made a (GREAT) game with a huge flaw that makes competitive play a race to get the first hit against an identical team. Sorry duder, I really can't see you justifying a character with the 3rd best attack (Only 2 characters have higher and both cost more than TWICE as much as firelord!!!), second highest defense (only one character in IC has higher), second highest move (Only one character has higher), second highest range, HIGHEST damage (only Hulk does 5. FOR 1 CLICK!!!), who flies and has the 3rd-4th highest possible number of clicks yet somehow is listed 34th in point cost!!! Please someone explain a weakness. PPl with (almost) every measurable statistic lower than FL: Thor, Hulk, Juggernaut, Annihilus, Kang, Ultron (attack is 1 more)!!!!!! All these figures cost almost twice as much and have lower stats!!!! The only difference here is Invulnerability. Does it really cost 50-80 points for this???WTF??? Is everyone in denial? Firelord is a bane on the competitive scene. He stunts creative play and I highly doubt that anyone is winning any IC tourneys consistently without Firelord against decent comptetition packing Firelords. End rant. Please own up to your mistakes WK. Again sorry I just couldn't be called lazy for wanting to be competitive.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by onew0rd
Genius strategy: "Hit him a couple of times..." Am I the only one who thinks this is the least thought out and most inane comment ever?

Possibly.

He's exactly right; hit him a couple of times. No toughness, no invulnerability, and a very short zone of effectiveness means that a couple of hits hurts Firelord more than almost any other 80-100 point figur.

[malchyor]

yes, finally!!!!

any chance you could get a new interview with him on a regular basis? every other interview we've seen, even the ones on wizkids' site have been lacking. but yours absolutely rules!

this is probably the first time that a wizkids personality has seemed real, as though they are actually people with lives and such (and opinions).

the few commments i have:

1. if you're the guy in charge of the game, you've got your "druthers". you should definately erratta firelord to make him more expensive.

2. again, if that's how you feel about taxi'ing, you should do something about it. it might be me who's included in the chants about how it'll break the game, but who cares! you're absolutely right that it doesn't happen in the comics (maybe it should,....but it doesn't).

3. thanks for the hints of something good to come from DC, and for the possibility of a set based on Kingdom Come!!!! oh...if i had my wish.....

[Klarc Quente]

Originally posted by scowlingone
"...In fact, the new DC set that I'm working on now..."

Well, at least we know that it's not dead.

It shouldn't be dead because it sold so much and it is a good source of $$$ for Wizkids. It is surprisingly that it took so much to get at the expansion, but I heard that they got some trouble working it out with DC. Well... how long until we get those?

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by onew0rd
I apologize in advance for this. I know everyone must be sick of the Firelord hate but I refuse to let this slide without responding.

Genius strategy: "Hit him a couple of times..." Am I the only one who thinks this is the least thought out and most inane comment ever?

Can someone just come out and be honest? Why is he or anyone else trying to justify an obvious error? Players are at fault for playing the best (by a light year or two) figure made? Because, let's be honest there is nothing in the ballpark that packs the punch and has the power of a Firelord for 81 points. The guy insults anyone who ever plays firelord because they made a (GREAT) game with a huge flaw that makes competitive play a race to get the first hit against an identical team. Sorry duder, I really can't see you justifying a character with the 3rd best attack (Only 2 characters have higher and both cost more than TWICE as much as firelord!!!), second highest defense (only one character in IC has higher), second highest move (Only one character has higher), second highest range, HIGHEST damage (only Hulk does 5. FOR 1 CLICK!!!), who flies and has the 3rd-4th highest possible number of clicks yet somehow is listed 34th in point cost!!! Please someone explain a weakness. PPl with (almost) every measurable statistic lower than FL: Thor, Hulk, Juggernaut, Annihilus, Kang, Ultron (attack is 1 more)!!!!!! All these figures cost almost twice as much and have lower stats!!!! The only difference here is Invulnerability. Does it really cost 50-80 points for this???WTF??? Is everyone in denial? Firelord is a bane on the competitive scene. He stunts creative play and I highly doubt that anyone is winning any IC tourneys consistently without Firelord against decent comptetition packing Firelords. End rant. Please own up to your mistakes WK. Again sorry I just couldn't be called lazy for wanting to be competitive.

Quick story: I knew a guy, used to play cards with him. He built a deck that cleaned me and my friend's clocks. So, we built decks to specifically counter it. After he got his pants yanked a few times, he went away and built a new deck that cleaned our clocks. Then we countered with decks designed to beat his deck. Soon, we were all chasing each other to make clock-cleaning decks and we stopped trying to win every time.

My suggestion is, when team building, build a Firelord killer. It can be done. There are threads all over the place with succesful "Kill the Firelord" strategies. Don't ban Firelord, or "fix" him. Find ways to take him out. There are more characters than you think with attacks of 12 or 13. Some of them will surprise you. 12 attack vs. 18 defense gives me a 6 or better chance to hit Firelord...the odds are with me that I'll do it. After that, it's playing clean up.

Until tournament play gets "officialized" (and you may all regret it if it happens), that's my suggestion. If everyone starts targeting the Firelord right out of the gate, Firelord will stop being used.

[Klarc Quente]

Originally posted by GroovyBoy

Any chance of seeing Kingdom Come or Universe X figures in the future?

[Jon Leithusser] Maybe. Anything is fair game. It's just a matter of making sure there are enough people out there to support a set that includes such characters.


Add me as a "people out there to support a set that includes" Kindom Come Characters. I would even buy LOTS of boosters even if the set ONLY included Kingdom Come. But I would rather see a set of "normal" R/E/V and with some Kingdom Come uniques mixed with other uniques or not.

So, what are you waiting for? MAKE KINGDOM COME FIGURES!!!

[PantherPriest]

Yes! It has been declared, taxiing is lame!

Jack of Hearts flies cap into battle, cap then hits the ground running and plants a vibranium coated shield right into blizzards face. Does Mr. Of Hearts pick up cap and continue to carry him around? NO! hahhahahaha, medics and taxis are comic bookly stupid and can suck my nightwing, jon liethusser is the man, although I can't pronounce his name.

And know I will revert back to pretending to be king t'challa.

Good show, Mr. Liethusser.

[PantherPriest]

oh, and nobody cares about firelord, I've been saying it for approximately a full year, one shot from cyclops and a simple black panther outwit and he's toast.

[onew0rd]

My suggestion is, when team building, build a Firelord killer.

The problem is that the best FL killer is FL. Who has a 12 attack that does more damage? or higher movement? Sure there are other teams that could possible get lucky and kill a FL. But the best way to kill him is with your own. The only reason people do not play FL is based on principle and that's not the most effective way to ensure a good chance at winning.

Panther Priest - You must be smelling those Vibranium processing plant fumes in Wakanda Panth because Vet Cyclops costs about the same as exp FL and hitting him for 5 puts him on his last where as if Cykes gets the jump FL still has 5 clicks left, a 9 attack and does 3 damage. I have my own panther too remember. Plus cykes doesnt fly and ALL HIS STATS ARE LOWER. Yet he costs just 3 points less. I am not saying that cykes is not a good character and a fairly costed one but that why would you play wiith Cykes over FL? Xmen Team ability, one click of running shot, and 2 range dont make up for all the differences. Heck, I would rather have Bullseye and a Doombot than a Vet Cyclops. And if you meant Exp, good luck hitting FL. FL need a 5 and you need an 8 to hit. Your in denial dude.

[Jack Squat]

Nice to see Leithusser's comments on Firelord ("There are so many interesting characters and combinations of powers and abilities that it seems a shame to say, 'Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic.' Yippee. What fun."), taxiing ("Personally, I'd like to see it go away entirely just to avoid those tactics."), and competitive play ("I think in noncompetitive play is really where HeroClix is the most fun."). Hallelujah! I can't wait to see the responses from some of the regulars around here.

[Spider_Cide]

I love seeing that the man in charge is taking control and talking to the fans. Honestly, I do and I hope it goes on in the future on a more regular basis.

But honestly, is the 'taxi' move really so borken that it would warrent an errata breaking that move? Sure, it will throw more of a challenge into the game for some of us who have been here since the beginning and probably be no sweet for the newbies, but come on. Flying in other figures helps speed up game play. For some of us, who actually have other things to do than play heroclix 24/7, fast games (at tournies mainly) need fast game play. But who cares, right? As long as the handfull of whiners are happy.

Same goes with Firelord. Outwit RCE and hit and fast. Firelord is the only real 'challenge' this game has. To get rid of it would make the game easier, not more challenging. But then again thats what everyone (at most enough to count on my left hand) wants.

[Pontifex]

This is going to be harsh, but I can't stand spin-doctoring, even in a 'friendly chat'. I've dabbled with enough game systems and fought the battle between background and game rules to know cop-outs when I see them.


Originally posted by GroovyBoy

I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think. Is that a mean thing to say? I dunno, but there are so many interesting characters and combinations of powers and abilities that it seems a shame to say, "Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic." Yippee. What fun. I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire. I think in noncompetitive play is really where HeroClix is the most fun. Build your team, run up and beat the snot out of each other until there's a clear winner. That's how the comics work.

I kind of look at this response as a crutch used by Wizkids' staff members who don't want to have to fix their mistakes. I dunno, but it seems a shame that there are so many suggestions from players and playtesters to say, "I don't think Firelord is much of a problem." What good work. I suppose in official interviews that has to be the thought process because minimizing the accountability of the rule-makers is the driving desire. I think that a balanced games system is what makes games the most fun. Build your heroes, and have them represent the characters they are supposed to represent. That's how a GAME works.

Actually, it's pretty funny to hear all the fans complain about how this or that character is interpreted on its dial because it doesn't match continuity, but then when you watch these people play it's anything goes. The way they play looks nothing like comic battles -- fly in carrying a character, fire a blast, then fly back to be healed by the medic. LAME! Show me a comic where that happens.

Actually, it's pretty funny to hear game designers complain about fan feedback not matching what the design team has interpreted for the characters, but then when you watch their design comments, THEIR way goes. The abilities they have created look nothing like the comic characters' -- make Spiderman an overpriced weenie, overuse incapacitate, throw in incompatible powers, and then fly back to the studio to get complimented by fan mail. LAME! Show me a good game that can consistently get away with that.

Um, no, that's not it. The reason why we have a handful of repeat characters is because they're important figures to Marvel. We don't have any sort of contractual obligation to them about which characters we'll include, it's just a matter of making sure the key characters are in each set.

Um, no THAT's not it. The reason why we have a handful of repeat characters is that they're big selling characters for Marvel. It's just a matter of making sure Marvel is happy and getting a good cut for each set.


If you were new to the game when Xplosion was released you'd want to have a chance of getting Spider-Man, the Hulk, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Elektra in the newest set.

If you were new to the game when Xplosion was released, you'd want to go to the nearest card or hobby shop, which usually has Wolverine, Daredevil, and Elektra for sale or trade.


[Jon Leithusser] I like characters more than figures, so when I play I tend to use characters I like as opposed to the most effective characters. I'm sure that seems silly to many players, but I don't play the game to win, I play for fun. I don't care if I lose.

I like characters more than figures, so when I design I tend to use characters that Marvel likes as opposed to the most asked-for characters. I'm sure that seems silly to many players, but I don't design the game to play it, I design it for a living.

I also like to play with different combinations of abilities to see how they'll work together, so I might choose characters that have Blades/Claws/Fangs, Support, and Perplex, or any other combination of powers...

Even if a character doesn't call for them.

They work wonderfully in the comics, but in the game they might disappoint and I don't want to do that to those characters.

Elektra worked fine in the Assassin limited series, but in the game a 160 point ninja might disappoint...


Any chance of seeing Kingdom Come or Universe X figures in the future?

[Jon Leithusser] Yes, there are a lot of cool characters; are they all adaptable to the game? No.

Yes, there are a lot of cool characters; will we stop making Wolverines and Spideys to get the other main characters in the game sooner? No.


The issue of taxi-ing has been a subject of debate for quite some time now. What's your opinion on the tactic? Considering how prevalent it is, do you think the Green Lantern team ability will be too powerful?

[Jon Leithusser] No one fights like that in the comics. Personally, I'd like to see it go away entirely just to avoid those tactics. Practically speaking, I may do something about it, but I haven't decided what or when. Whatever happens, it'll be playtested first, then released, then everyone can complain about how it crippled the game.

No one fights like that in the comics because the writers don't need them to - except, hm, the Fastball Special and the Danger Room, two things which have heavily influenced comics combat. Practically speaking, its a good idea even if comic book writers don't always do it...

[Regault]

Hmm. Unfortunately it looks like the next DC expansion will include more pathetic Batman and Superman Uniques. Given the fact the only real variant of Supes left is Superman Blue, I don't think many people will be interested in them though. (Not that that hasn't stopped them before. There's no real difference between Xplosion Spiderman and Daredevil from their IC predecessors aside from their stats, and they still felt compelled to inflict them upon us.)

Hopefully though, the next DC expansion will include a redone Flash with the Titans ability on his rookie version. Although I'm starting to think his "What comics I love" spiel is BS as he claims to like Power Pack and they didn't show up in CT. Which is odd considering they'd have interesting dials, fill a critical hole in the FF team, and have cool sculpts. All I know, is he's had two expansions to impress me with his choice of figures, and the character list for CT was iffy and the list for Xplosion is ten degrees of awful.(Only three figures on the list I want, and one of them is generic.)

Apparently, WizKids core problem with game design is the same as Game's Workshop's. They let the game get play-tested by "good sports". If you want a fair and balanced game, you give it to a bunch of munchkins and see how they figure out how to break it. It seems to me this guy is getting mad about people employing strategy in a strategy game! If I wanted to just get involved in one large tacticsless scrum I'd play MK:Dungeons.

That "I want to ban taxiing" thing has probably got to be the dumbest thing I've heard connected to a game since the latest Games Workshop apologist claimed that Necrons were a balanced army list. Without taxiing the game would be entirely dominated by Ranged Combat Expert and Running Shot. Taxis make the brawler characters worth playing. If he's so tetchy about the running back to a medic thing they should just rule that taxiing can't be used to pull someone out of close combat.

[PantherPriest]

No, I am not in denial, I just speak of the times in which I have beaten firelord. I do not play firelord because everyone plays firelord, and I wish to be creative. I find that if you play the characters like they act int the comics than you have a very good chance of winning. I have problems playing firelord because he is overplayed and I know very little of the character. I started this game for characters I know and love and am always trying expand my character knowledge.

It is more fun form me to win creatively than just buy using the sameold firelord for the same old win. However you bring up a good point that the exp and vet firelords are so similar that one might as well use the experienced.

So basically, as kindly as I can, I mean to say F&ck Firelord! I win with out him. The panther will never conform.

My biggest problem with taxis and firelords and medics is that thy dominate the game, I want originality.


And the fumes of the vibranium plants are not toxic by nature, read Panthers prey volume 2 or 3.

[Dalmatio69]

(Im assuming Jon or someone important at WK reads these boards)

I think WK should make a Galactus solely for fun use. Jon even says himself he thinks HC is better played when fun, so why not make a 1000+ point Galactus that isnt allowed in tournaments? Heck, make him 10,000 points even! Looking at it from a sales point of view, who honestly wouldnt buy one? All collectors would certainly buy one, and most players will buy one just for pure enjoymeny. Heck, id probally get 2.

But seeing "hell probally never get made" sounds very depressing. We want a Galactus!

And heres a question, how does one become a playtester?

[Doctor Strange]

I can only hope to see more of this quality in the future. ... now, on to busness... :)

"Any chance of seeing Kingdom Come or Universe X figures in the future?

[Jon Leithusser] Maybe. Anything is fair game. It's just a matter of making sure there are enough people out there to support a set that includes such characters. "


Jon, if your listening out there....

I'm quite certain that an Earth X set would sell like hotcakes.
Part of the reason that the book was such a sucess was the facinating characters.

Namor, Half on fire
Spidermans daughter as Venom
Captain America, battered to represent a battered america
The Iron Avengers
Clea as the Sorcerus Supreme
Hulk with bruce banner as a child sitting on his sholder
Ben Grimm and his two sons
Thor as a woman
Reed Richards in Doctor Dooms armor.
The Inhumans!
Red skull
Hydra mutants as thugs
The new X-men

Just imagine how cool these figures would look!

A What if!? expansion would contain amazingly dynamic as well. Curiosity alone would make this set fly off the shelfs.

[Doctor Strange]

Originally posted by Regault

That "I want to ban taxiing" thing has probably got to be the dumbest thing I've heard connected to a game since the latest Games Workshop apologist claimed that Necrons were a balanced army list. Without taxiing the game would be entirely dominated by Ranged Combat Expert and Running Shot.

Not necessarily..

My guess is, that if they change the rules of taxi-ing, they will make it more like Mage Knight.

In Mage Knight, a character has to use 4 speed points to attack, so, Take Sandman for instance..

Sandman, who has 8 move, could move 4 squares and then make an attack.

If the game works out this way, then charge could work the same way it does in mage knight..

Charge characters can make a close combat attack for 0 move.

Running shot, like bound. Bound characters can make a ranged attack for 2 movement points..

Flying characters can ignore terrain for movement and that's it.. no more taxi-ing.

My big hope is that Wizkids realizes that a lot of older people play heroclix so they can afford to make it more than the simple game they originally intended if they in fact make the no-taxi rule.

By the way Wizkids represenitives... amid all the complaining, I want to voice that I love the game and enjoy it every time I play.
Often times it's the complainers who have the loudest voice, simply because the content players don't really have much to say other than "thanks for the great game."

[Comte]

Yes I would also like to say that this whole thread has made me slightly depressed. Anyway I apreciate what you are doing for the game, I personaly loved the fantastic four expansion and so dose the 6 people I regularly play with. We are also looking forwards to the next expansion with an increadble amount of anticipation. Despite all the word twisting and negativity that has been flying around I would like to say that I like what you have done so far and I am eager to see what you will do next. I have an increadble amount of respect for any game designer who will come fowards and talk levely with the people who play the game. It is good that you are listening I hope that our complaining dosn't bother you to much. Remember at most they are only a small portion of the community even though they may seem otherwise.

[Thanosied]

After reading all the responses to Jon Leithusser's Q and A session I must say, well done all. Although Mark Finn is ever the apple polisher. I love what onewOrd writes about how Jon just says whatever and runs from the truth. And how Pontifex just says his mind and makes a nearly perfect assesment of how the game is. This is the first actual posting session I have been in where for the most part the ####ties have stayed home. I try to disregard him saying that Firelord is a cop out. Hmmmm gee someone made LE's and to win them I have to use the best team possible. So be it lame or whatever, the masterminds of the game did it too themselves by creating winnable figures at tournaments. But the only biggest strategy in the game is taxiing. You have to maneuver around either a taxi and his charge recipient or a taxi and his ranged comrade. This ends up being the biggest part of the game because if you can hit the first shot on your opponents biggest character before he hits yours you will end up winning most of your tournament games. MY teams for 200.

Marvel: R Firelord 66
V Bullseye 43
V Doombot 38
U Elektra 36
V A. I. M Medic 17

DC: V Bane 85
R Hawk 45
E Booster Gold 38
R Huntress 18
R Checkmate Medic 13

Be it cheap or not these 2 teams have won me 18 out of 20 possible LE's at tournaments and that DC has not lost a single figure in 3 tournaments. I have to say I love playing big 300 and 400 games with friends for fun as well but Wizkids made LE's so if they sell for at times $40 US can you really blame anyone who uses cheese? Obviously no. Jon Leithusser needs a little help in his game play section and creative development. A great example of this would be Doomsday not having Battle Fury, Thanos having Battle Fury and not having Outwit, Spider-man missing out on super senses until CT, and low and behold an ungodly Elektra who may not be 200 point tournament worthy but in all honesty Jon Leithusser's new favorite fun toy for when he plays his little fun games. First point to any real game is to win!!!! Hello!!!

P.S Has anyone ever had the bright inclanation to get rid of support in general? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of super heroes- villains in the first place? That should probably have been thought of a long time ago eh? But taxiing is the only way to make more than half the figures playable. What does everyone else think?

[Spider_Cide]

Ahmen, thanosied

[Draggor]

Nice to hear from one of the brains behind the game. Glad to hear a DC set is coming. Shame to hear we may never see Galactus but I can see his point. It would get boring waiting for the other player to take all their actions. I agree about firelord. What you can't manage to win with any other piece other than firelord, lame. A figure just shy of 100 points with no real defence is a liability to me. Next time your opponent takes a firelord you take a mind controller. Give him a taste of his own medicine. Bet he won't use flame boy again. I don't think he needs to be changed. As for the taxing rule maybe they should just change it so you can't pull characters away if they've been based. That way fliers can be used to get characters in but not out again. It would limit the prevalence of medics too. Like the Avengers carry a doctor around with them, at all times in the comics. Heroclix suffers like any other game that you have people with no imagination who just look at the numbers on the dial and not the characters themselves. I don't use scrubs unless I have a few points left over that can't be spent on anything else. I play with the figures I like and relate to, not the biggest dial. I have to have every different character even if I'll never use them. As for the prevalence of Hulk/Wolverine etc wizkids has to keep in mind the casual gamer, while you may really be waiting for one particular character who was seen for two pages about fifteen years ago these characters aren't going to interest most people or the more recent comics buyer. Like it or not these guys (and girl) are Marvels' flagship characters and most people can't get enough of them. Repeating characters means in the long run it will take more sets to exhaust all available characters, hence more figures to collect. That's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

By the way, thanks Jon. Seems like our much loved game is in safe hands. Not everyone here is eternally bitter.

[Thanosied]

To no ones surprise my favorite 2 characters are Thanos and the Hulk. The reason for the bitterness or more the frustration is the fact that too my knowledge Wizkids has failed in a few attempts now to get these characters and others like them right!!!

I have seen game mechanics that make certain characters great and certain charaters not so great but when people keep yapping about playing with the characters they like and the way they should be played.... MY GOD!!!! I have to slap myself just so I know that I'm not in a DREAM. I pretty sure the Hulk needs to be moved around by a stupid Telekinetic person to be useful in the comics!!! Oh Spider-Man can't dodge but he can shield his allies!!! OH and wait the most intellegent character in all of Marvel, The Mad Titan Thanos does not even get 1 single click of outwit!!! Why is that? Hmmm. Well Jon Leithusser I would love to play with Thanos but oh wait after I get hit I gain Battle Fury and loose the ability to shoot ranged... Oh so great a description of a guy who always waits and shoots double gauntlet blasts or back hands everyone... I would love to use the Hulk which I do on occasion, but after I push 5 times to be able to do anything and finally get into the fight. The fight has ended and the Hulk is wondering what happened... Or I could shell out the $150-200 US for the I may be playable Hulk (Bruce Banner). Do people see what I am getting act? What Wizkids needs is accurate character designs for the basis of the game. If Wizkids wants to see matchups like they get in the comics they have to sit down and use there heads to get a resonable BALANCE to the teams. And the job of the PLAYTESTERS should not only be basing the power of the characters but there ability to aid and help a team against another team.

[Casby]

Interesting interview.

Only two things I didn't like the look of:

What really peeved me was the mention that the Endless wouldn't work as clix.

Of course this is true, but I think you could manage a Dream fig cos he's done proper fighty stuff and would be playable due to his character and background. THe others are a big no no.

Second I was annoyed that John glossed over the central flaw with Firelord. His strength is not in his power, but rather the lack of it. So long as you still have a medic a low defence is GOOD, not bad. Yes, after two clicks he's hurt bad, but the drop to a low defence means that another flyer can taxi him back to heal up again before charging out for another attack run. I really don't think the playtesters caught this before the figure came out. If the guy was invunerable/high defence all the way down that would make him a WORSE figure, not better. I still cringe at the classic competitive team setup:

Firelord
Firelord
Bullseye
Medic
Medic

But that doesn't stop people using it. Two Firelords taxiing each other around really aren't nice, and are still the top of the fighter league.

I mean:

Bricks beat weak grounded figs.
Long range turtlers beat bricks.
Flyers beat long range turtlers (cos soaring halves a turtler's range)
AND, Firelords beat flyers.

Anyway, yay for the rest of it, I'm glad the designers play the 'friendly' character-driven game rather than the awful 'competitive must-win-small-shiny-rare-pieces-of-plastic' one.


Casby the friendly ghost

p.s. Iron Man will kick Firelord's ar5e. Just as the flaming one goes down to low defence, shellhead kicks into Close Combat mode to chase him down and eat his head.

p.p.s. Even so, can we please have a flyer with Outwit/Probability control on his/her first click to take down this Firelord muppet once and for all? Storm anyone?

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Doctor Strange


My guess is, that if they change the rules of taxi-ing, they will make it more like Mage Knight.

In Mage Knight, a character has to use 4 speed points to attack, so, Take Sandman for instance..

By the way Wizkids represenitives... amid all the complaining, I want to voice that I love the game and enjoy it every time I play.


I play Mageknight(Dungeons and Rebellion) which are 2 very different games!
(the spend 4 speed point for attack only works in Dungeons)

without taxiing heroclix will become LAME !! take that from someone who knows !
Ranged figs rule all in MK, you think FL is borken now ? wait until you CAN'T even counterstrike against him !
Taxies is what makes heroclix a fun fast-moving playable game, sure you can move a FL up and hit that fig for 5, BUT you can also move Hercules up and smack someone !!

No offence John Leithusser, BUT If you say flying someone back to the healer is lame, WHY did you make cheap healers in the first place !!!(yes you didn't make IC, but what about CT)
well adding Flyers can't pull anybody out of a fight solves that problem.
If all healers where like Jean Grey and Captain America(+/- 50 points named figs) this never would have happened.
Healing isn't so much used in the comics, but if I build a team and have some points leftover (say 12) Why shouldn't I play a healer? There is not much else I can field for those points and the team ability rocks most of the time.

the whole point is : generics, who really wants them ??
making some low cost figs: why not make the power pack/mystery men as "generics" some have not much powers that could be interresting and some of us wouldn't mind seeing them.

aboot figs dial stats..
CT has some of the best stats for the figs ! thank you for those.
IC have some good stats and some horribly bad stats, second where all fanboys here ! Off course we're going to complain about those bad stats !
can't you REDO some of the old figs that have been clearly screwed over (Magneto,Thanos,etc.) instead of getting out another Wolverine,Spidey (HEY, I love Spiderman but honestly I could do without him every other set !).

[Invisible_Jon]

Greetings All,

Mark me down as a Hero Clix player who feels the same way that Jon Leithusser does.

Lots of people making lots of comments; no need to reiterate them here. Just one thought instead: If taxiing gets axed (which I find unlikely), then you'll see a lot more Telekinesis used instead. Very likely one TKer with high defense in the front to toss people back for healing and one in the rear (with leadership?) to toss people back to the front lines. (Sounds like Jean Grey and Magneto to me...)

Just let the game stand as it is. Broken or not, at least it's consistient.

Best Regards,

[Keleko]

Originally posted by Doctor Strange


Not necessarily..

My guess is, that if they change the rules of taxi-ing, they will make it more like Mage Knight.

In Mage Knight, a character has to use 4 speed points to attack, so, Take Sandman for instance..

Sandman, who has 8 move, could move 4 squares and then make an attack.


One problem with that is that there are characters will less than 4 move. Blob and Grundy get less than 4 move after they're hurt. You can't take away the character's ability to attack at all. However, if you make it 1/2 movement, then that would work. However, then it makes Charge an incredible power because you could go your full movement.

Actually, that might not be too bad. Toad and Blob would suddenly be more desirable because of their charge. Watch out for V-She-Hulk, though. But, then she'd be able to take down all those ranged folks that cost less because she could move in on them really quickly.

[mulkabu]

Thats a good interview! I really do think Clobbering Time was the best Heroclix set yet, so it bodes pretty #### well that it was Jon L's first fully developed set. CT was a good well rounded, well balanced set with lots of playable, solid, characterful clix, but with very few undercosted pieces in my opinion (Invisible girl - thats it! Compared to IC's many many many!).
Themes like the F4's scalable 200/300/400 are just plain cool, and it surprises me not at all that this designer went to the bother of mocking up Galactus just to see how it'd go.

He's against taxi-ing, which is a good thing - it currently defines the game, *utterly* in my opinion. When the most expensive figure in my all X-men team, Rogue, best serves me by taxi-ing a cheaper figure than utilising hre 77 points by actually doing something *9* turns out of 10, somethings amiss. Powers like Charge, Running shot and TK aren't as useful as they should be - for example, a cheap TKer costs the same as a pair of cheap taxis, and is not as useful as even one. yes, more flexible certainly, but not as useful.
The question of players complaining of "non-comic" recreations of characters and then ignoring these restrictions once the game has started - it is a game. Yes, I entirely agree that playing a game is more important than winning, but a large part of the fun in Clix is the excellent tactical possibilities. Each turn, dozens of potntial plays can be evealuated before deciding on a course of action - and suggesting that a player make a weaker play all the time for charcaters sake .. is silly.
To illustrate my badly made point - consdier these 2 examples.

Q:1 Hulk is base to base with Bane, with Wasp behind him, like so.

B
H
W

Hulk is hurt bad, and on his last click, with regeneration. He has no action tokens, neither does Bane, who has only lost 1 click.
pop quiz hotshot, what do you do?

A) Move Wasp away, carrying Hulk,and use his regenerate?

B) "Rargh Hulk smash puny wrestler!!". Attack with Hulk, move Wasp elsewhere, not moving the Hulkster.

Q:2 Less specific. its turn 3, your forces are still maneuvering for position, but you count the squares and you know you can taxi Batman into batrang range of 2 opposing figures with tokens and possibly incapicate them both? The taxi in question is Steel.

A) The Bat leaps into cover and uses the cover of night to approach the foe.
B) Steel airlifts the dark Knight in like a sack of potatoes, dropping him off an bats chucks batarangs at the suckers?

Now as you can no doubt tell from my *subtle* use words, I'd go with option A) for 1, and B) for 2, though there is no question my mind that in both cases, option A) is what the character "would" do, and option B) is the correct tactical choice.
Players will sacrifice characterful plays to make better plays, how much so depends on their comepetitiveness. Players like to win, and even though I really do value play value over winning (otherwise I'd still be playing magic, not Clix and l5r), when my oppoent chooses ####ola teams like Bullseye, hawkeye, Spiral, 3 medics and a a mandroid armour and refuse to leave his starting formation, you better belive I play paly my ### off, forgoing any characterful palys whatsoever to beat the cheesy ##### with my less effective, more characterful team selection. Losing to less skilful players with more humdrum cost effective teams with negative play styles is not fun :-)


The deisgners of a game create the boundaries of game possibilities - and players WILL try to do everyhting they can within those boundaries to win. Medics are another example - they are very effective as designed, and as such it must be expected that they will be used. I think they're a stupid idea and don't use them, and thats my perogative, but my trying to place subjective "made-up" limitations on the game is pointless as neither I nor any other player is the authority on such, the designers are.

Although I though i don't thik it very likely anyone is till reading this far :-) I would VERY much like to see a reward for picking "thematic" teams, like all Brotherhood, or all Teen Titans or whatever. Yes, some team abilities do reward this, but as the game currently stands, there is no reason not to "cherry-pick" the very best, undercosted clix available leading to many games featuring the usual cast of Firelord, Bullseye, r Vulture, was, Booster Gold, U elektra, r Black Panther etc etc etc. Obviously in friendly play themed teams and titanic team ups are the order for the day, but in tournies - which are still pretty friendly, but people want to win more - its the usual suspects arrayed in familiar formations :-( Other collectible games have factions, colours, clans. Maybe if teams composed aof members of one team were to get 10% extra points to spend?




>>>>>
I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think. Is that a mean thing to say? I dunno, but there are so many interesting characters and combinations of powers and abilities that it seems a shame to say, "Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic." Yippee. What fun. I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire. I think in noncompetitive play is really where HeroClix is the most fun.
>>>>>

Its still pretty comforting to know that the design team know what to expect from many players in tournaments.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[Jon Leithusser] Daredevil, Amazing Spider-Man, Ultimate Spider-Man, Authority, Planetary, all of the America's Best Comics, Flash, Powers, Usagi Yojimbo, and many more. I don't have my recent purchases in front of me, so I'm sure I'm forgetting some.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


Bring on Authority/Planetary! :-)



Brian

[Keleko]

Originally posted by Invisible_Jon
Greetings All,

Mark me down as a Hero Clix player who feels the same way that Jon Leithusser does.

Lots of people making lots of comments; no need to reiterate them here. Just one thought instead: If taxiing gets axed (which I find unlikely), then you'll see a lot more Telekinesis used instead. Very likely one TKer with high defense in the front to toss people back for healing and one in the rear (with leadership?) to toss people back to the front lines. (Sounds like Jean Grey and Magneto to me...)


That doesn't bother me nearly as much as taxiing does. TK takes an action, so no free fares in and out of combat. And TK costs a minimum of 28 points, so no more 15 point taxi.

I don't think taxis should be completely eliminated, either. The ideas of not being able to taxi someone out of close combat is interesting, actually. This requires your figure in B2B to break away first, or they at least have to take a move action to get away if they have powers that allow free breakaway.

[phicks]

Thanks very much for posting this interview. I am overjoyed to hear Wizkids is indeed working on another DC set.

[Drashia]

if aspects are being reworked for DC that means we can expect something very good...

Someone should have asked him about the sculpters, fav sculpter and sculpt...

[Melkoloran]

It's nice to see the q&a, but seriously. If you're the lead designer and you know that there are figs or tactics that are screwed up, how about fixing them, rather than just calling them lame?

[onew0rd]

I don't think Taxi needs to be redone. It's a necessary evil. What they should do is add a restriction like you can't carry anyone who costs as much or more than you unless you have superstrength. Also flying with someone should lower your movement somehow. I feel Taxi is a neat concept and an interesting tactic. The thing is we need more of these. We need TK to be better (Maybe you don't need to be adjacent to figs, maybe just within 8 squares), Fastball Special needs to be better. Hindering terrain needs a rework. All these things would make for a more interesting game but as usual, I digress. I would also like to restate and side with others here that in the future I would appreciate it if game designers would not try to pass the buck on us or call us "Lazy" for wanting to win LEs. Thanks.

Panther Priest and everyone else who says they play with characters for fun. I commend you. That's my point. Can you win an LE without Firelord? Possibly (it is a dice game afterall). What are your best chances of winning an LE? Play with FL!

You want to hear crickets? Call out the "I've never lost to a FL team" dudes. Here is a challenge to any of you. Can someone please PM me a FL-less Team that routinely beats Firelord teams? I am apparently Strategically impaired and can't build one. I promise I will play at least several games against it this weekend and see what's up. I am calling the tacticians out. The legendary mythical Heroclixer who pilots his Firelordless force to victory week after week against a field of dumbfounded and humiliated Firelord players with his cache of LEs and fearsome reputation. The missionary who converts former FL players see the error of their ways. Are you out there? If not has anyone faced this guy? He has to exist, I mean everyone who has ever read a FL thread has read a post from this Hidden Master. Please enlighten us.

Now I'd like to call on the realistic and practical FL players who week after week realize that building your force on sound logic and probability is superior to building one based on principle and personal preference. Who week after week are called cheesy while they crush their opponents and fill their bags with LE after LE. I bet this guy is not an endangered species. I bet we ALL know or are this guy. Who converts other FL players not by word but by action. Because losing with my SuperFUN Quasar-Spiderman teamup week after week gets old really fast.

[shin-goji]

All in all we ar egoing to have people bantering back and forth today about how Jon is or isn't responsible for such things as the Yo-Yo Medical Taxi Strategy, Cheeselord and Galactus-Clix. I personally agree with about 80-90% of what he says. I don't foresee any point cost or strategy revampingin the near or ar future. Anyone who has this major of a gripe about the game probably should be playing Mage-Knight, Yu-Gi-O, or even Magic: The Huddling. HC just isn't for you. There's going to be power gaming rules lawyers in any comic/gaming society, you just have to live with it or find a way around it. At the very least, confront the offending player in a non-hostile way and try to get them to change their tactics. In the end, don't play them or accept that a victory won't come easy. We have just about all been there.
Good interview all the way around.

[Pontifex]

Originally posted by shin-goji
All in all we ar egoing to have people bantering back and forth today about how Jon is or isn't responsible for such things as the Yo-Yo Medical Taxi Strategy, Cheeselord and Galactus-Clix.


So, it's our fault for noticing that he's made it clear that he DOES have the power and pull to change or not change these things, but chooses to blame the players instead of fixing game BALANCE issues? Sounds like another cop-out.

I personally agree with about 80-90% of what he says. I don't foresee any point cost or strategy revampingin the near or ar future. Anyone who has this major of a gripe about the game probably should be playing Mage-Knight, Yu-Gi-O, or even Magic: The Huddling. HC just isn't for you.

Ooooooo, it's the old "If you don't like it don't play it" argument! Gosh darn, I've NEVER EVER heard that cunning argument before! 16 years of Games Workshop miniatures gaming and 23 years of RPGs have never prepared me for that mental coup! Seriously, though - if your best argument is to tell us to go play Magic, perhaps we should so that Wizkids can go broke waiting for us to put up or shut up. Brilliant move - it worked so well for WOTC that Chainmail has become the most popular... wait, the Chainmail game is dead? Oops, so much for the ol' Put Up and Shut Up argument.

There's going to be power gaming rules lawyers in any comic/gaming society, you just have to live with it or find a way around it.

Yep, don't ask those guys who get paid to make games to fix them.


At the very least, confront the offending player in a non-hostile way and try to get them to change their tactics. In the end, don't play them or accept that a victory won't come easy. We have just about all been there.
Good interview all the way around.

The interview was fine, and I still commend the Wizkids folks for opening up to us. However, Spin doctoring is still spin doctoring.

[daredevil11]

Well I enjoyed this read over coffee. Kudos. Its refreshing to see that Jon is intune with what some of the issues are, (FL taxiing). I realize some of these answers are guarded, but he would have been sort of irresponsible to be otherwise. In general, I thought the interview was much more casual and frank than things we've seen in the past and I hope we see some more like in this future.

Here's my two cents on a couple of issues based on my groups play, because I hope he reads this thread -

We've found that eliminating ranged combat in base to base, goes a long way to neutralizing FL effectiveness and it really gives the grounded figures, who seem inherently weak, a boost. Run the guns and reap the rewards so to speak.

We don't like "overhealing" either. From a strategic standpoint, its neglectful not to run back and get healed when you have the chance, but it does take the flavor out of the game. We've tried alternatives like - no medic games (present favorite) and medics take a click each time they heal someone, with no possibility of being healed themselves - this puts the lid on the endless medic bag.

Taxies, lot of possibilities here, if taxied characters could not attack in the same round they are carried, that would make it more of a movement activity rather than an attack option. If b2b negated ranged combat, a strategic advantage beyond just movement would still exist.

Complicated issues, requiring complicated solutions, best of luck.

On a further personal note:
Put me in the no clix from offshoot miniseries category and the I'm waiting and excited about DC 2 group, bring it on!!!!

[Doomtoy]

Well, first of all, CHEESE IS.

That's right. CHEESE IS.

There is cheese. There was cheese. There will be cheese. And where cheese exists, there will be those who insist on cheese. There will be those who play cheese, and don't apologize for playing cheese.

In other gaming genres, these are called "power gamers." These are people who juggle their point totals to maximize power and defense while minimizing anything else. This is the Dungeons and Dragons fighter who wants to reroll his hit points every level until he gets the best roll (not counting adjustment for 18 Con) and won't step outside the house until he's wearing more armor than the U.S.S. New Jersey.

Where there is cheese, people will play it.

Did they screw up with Firelord? Maybe. But I've seen tourneys won without him. I have YET to see a tourney won with LEs. Believe me, people are NOT going nuts fielding armies of Nenoras and Wilson Fisks.

LEs are neat little prizes, that's all, folks.

Are they going to put Spidey and Wolvie in every set? Quite likely. These figures SELL. These are the figures that are WANTED by a majority of the potential customers. They'd be crazy not to put them in the set! Not everyone HAS a hobby shop in walking distance, and a lot of those hobby shops don't sell singles! Hell, MY hobby shop DOES sell singles, and rotsa ruck buying a Spider-Man! The only ones who don't sell instantly are the Uniques, and even THEY don't last more than a couple of weeks in the case! This, DESPITE him being an "overcosted weenie!"

Does this mean less room for other characters? Yes. 'Fraid so. Boo hoo hoo. Admittedly, I kind of wondered why they went nuts with Elektra of all people, but she's in the current movie, so what the hey.

If I don't wanna deal with cheese, I don't play with someone who plays cheese. Either that, or I buckle down, I play cheese too, and I stomp his butt at his own game. The playing field IS level, you know. And you CAN buy Firelord singles at my local hobby shop. Plenty of them. But you won't find Spidey. Or Batman. Or Superman. Or Wolverine. They sell too fast.

...so yeah, I figure they'll put Batman and Superman in the next DC set, too. WizKids is in business to make money, and short of gouging me, I can't really blame them for maximizing their potential profits. They have yet to do anything I wouldn't do, if I were in charge there.

Oh -- they listen. They listen like naughty children, believe me. There are companies that spend FORTUNES on demographic data, customer research, and polling, gathering info about their customer base.

WizKids gets all that for FREE, right here. All they have to do is assign someone to surf the web and take notes about what their hardest-core fans are saying. They'd be insane not to.

So speak on. They're paying attention.

[shin-goji]

16 years of Games Workshop miniatures gaming and 23 years of RPGs have never prepared me for that mental coup!

There's your problem, you've played Games Workshop games.

The game is fine as is, personally, and doesn't need an overhaul in points or tactics.

[daredevil11]

"This is the Dungeons and Dragons fighter who wants to reroll his hit points every level until he gets the best roll (not counting adjustment for 18 Con) and won't step outside the house until he's wearing more armor than the U.S.S. New Jersey." - Doomtoy

I here you there, I've DM'd games where a Cavalier insisted on fighting from horseback in an underground tunnel since it was large enough if he ducked, where a wizard had a 100 die wand of fireballs given to him by a god, and where parties butcherd cows and chickens for experience points.

Well, miraculously, steel blades shot out of the walls and decapitated the cavalier, the wizard and his party were incinerated because of the blast diameter of the "supernova" he detonated underground, and the party of butchers were beaten to death by an angry mob of vegetarian monks.

There indeed will always be cheese, you just have to figure the best way to cut it - no pun intended.

[egospark]

I'm in an online tournament and my stats will show that I play for fun.

At home, we play 200 to 300 point teams (four players) and set up various goals (like the Eye of Horus and the Really Cool Device)
to grab and get off the field. Or sometimes they'll have a 300 point team and I'll have a 500 point team with the object being
"Get Dad."

As such, I've found Firelord to be a fine character, but still fairly easy to kill. We also tend not to use medics as they slow the game down, so having a guy who can take a beating and then get better is a cool trick.

Taxi moves are good at the beginning, but get tougher in the heat of battle. The use of low level pieces like the 20 point Vulture or 27 point Man-Bat are fine if you really want a taxi, but why people use Thor to taxi around someone is beyond me.

Then again, I play for fun. Great interview.

[Keleko]

Someone mentioned making Medics take a click of damage when using Support. I like that idea. All you have to do is declare that they have a yellow circle instead of a square for their support power. In other WK games, a circle instead of a square means you take a click of damage when you use that power. That would go a LONG way to removing drawn-out fights where you run to the medic to heal. After all, the medic only has so many bandages in their first-aid kit. :)

[Spidersense]

Random thoughts:

I loved the interview because I thought we got some decent answers to some pointed questions. I think the fact that he says he would add 10-15 points to Firelord says alot. I dont think we know the politics inside Wizkids THAT well to assume that he has all encompasing power to make changes to what happened before he started.

Jon has done a great job with the figures he has designed. I dont see any long threads on how messed up CT is. I think the future for this game is very bright on both DC and marvels sides.

Regarding Elektra, Wolverine, Spidey in each set - does it really matter?

Taxis may need a change, but they better play test the heck out of it because once it is changed, it will be hard to go back.

I am glad a DC set is in the works. It will come, I can wait and save money for it in the process. If I played strict DC, I could see the impatience though.

I am very impressed with how they listen to this forum. It is free market research. Therefore, I am all in favor of people making intelligent statements about the rules. Whining is a whole different story.

Yes, it is a game, but I dont play to win all the time. Chess? Yes. Cards? Yes. But this game is quite different than those games. The pieces can change each game. I like the fact that I was able to come home from seeing Daredevil and the next night put together a DD, spiderman, elektra, black cat team and try to make them successful. My opponent used Bullseye and DD dodged two of his attacks. How cool is that? I think some are missing the opportunities this game gives you. If all you are playing is tourneys and if winning all the time is the only way you can have fun with this game, I feel bad for you.

[Thorgrin]

Dude, get over it... There are plenty of ways to take out cheesehead. In fact, I had an opponent that played an exp firelord AND a vet bullseye and not only did I beat him, but I beat him without losing a single figure AND it was in a tournament. He also had a medic as well.

Not going to deny he's a good figure, but he's not this almighty figure that you can't do anything about.

Originally posted by onew0rd


The problem is that the best FL killer is FL. Who has a 12 attack that does more damage? or higher movement? Sure there are other teams that could possible get lucky and kill a FL. But the best way to kill him is with your own. The only reason people do not play FL is based on principle and that's not the most effective way to ensure a good chance at winning.

Panther Priest - You must be smelling those Vibranium processing plant fumes in Wakanda Panth because Vet Cyclops costs about the same as exp FL and hitting him for 5 puts him on his last where as if Cykes gets the jump FL still has 5 clicks left, a 9 attack and does 3 damage. I have my own panther too remember. Plus cykes doesnt fly and ALL HIS STATS ARE LOWER. Yet he costs just 3 points less. I am not saying that cykes is not a good character and a fairly costed one but that why would you play wiith Cykes over FL? Xmen Team ability, one click of running shot, and 2 range dont make up for all the differences. Heck, I would rather have Bullseye and a Doombot than a Vet Cyclops. And if you meant Exp, good luck hitting FL. FL need a 5 and you need an 8 to hit. Your in denial dude.

[MarkFinn]

Apple polisher?

Weak, sister. Very weak.

[proditor]

I'm pretty firmly in Pontifex's camp. Designing a game that has a goal (winning) and that has prize support (LE's) and then complaining about the way your customers play the game seems like sour grapes to me.

I agree with a lot of what Jon L said, but calling your playerbase lame is not the way to go about it. If there is a problem, fix it, don't get mad because the players found a way to min/max. Someone said earlier that if you want to seriously test a game, you give it to munchkins. Amen brother, you're preaching to the choir. I help run an online MUX and everytime someone suggests a rules change, I hand it to a bunch of PC's who went through a major munchkin phase years ago and now are the biggest balance fiends I have ever seen. They show me how it could be abused, and we make changes.

I never ever make changes that are based around the "good sport" because if you do that, you get burned, and end up seeming petty in an interview when you complain that the nasty players outsmarted you.

[Meepo]

Originally posted by proditor
I'm pretty firmly in Pontifex's camp. Designing a game that has a goal (winning) and that has prize support (LE's) and then complaining about the way your customers play the game seems like sour grapes to me.

I agree with a lot of what Jon L said, but calling your playerbase lame is not the way to go about it. If there is a problem, fix it, don't get mad because the players found a way to min/max. Someone said earlier that if you want to seriously test a game, you give it to munchkins. Amen brother, you're preaching to the choir. I help run an online MUX and everytime someone suggests a rules change, I hand it to a bunch of PC's who went through a major munchkin phase years ago and now are the biggest balance fiends I have ever seen. They show me how it could be abused, and we make changes.

I never ever make changes that are based around the "good sport" because if you do that, you get burned, and end up seeming petty in an interview when you complain that the nasty players outsmarted you.

Just thought I'd requote the entire message, just to prove how worthy of reading this was.

So very, very true.

[fatalsync]

All I have to say is:

Death to Taxi-ing!

[MarkFinn]

What do you CARE what he thinks, or anyone else thinks? You're the big winner, here, Thaonsied. With you raking in all of those LE's, you should be laughing all the way to the hardware store to buy more tackleboxes. They call you a cheesehead, sure, but you are KILLING them at the tournaments. So, who's right and who's wrong?

"Apple Polisher?" When I get my first check from WizKids, I'll buy you a chocolate malt, pal. Until then, do me a favor and go peddle your ducks elsewhere.

The guy creating the figures answers a few questions, and everyone starts harping on the WAY in which he answered them...or they start saying, "Yeah, but..."

So, no one's listening. Everyone is focused on their little issues instead of pulling back a step and trying to see things from a different perspective. I'm speaking generally now, Thanoseid, and not necessarily talking about you.

But "apple polisher"? Really. Go win another tournament, will ya?


Originally posted by Thanosied
After reading all the responses to Jon Leithusser's Q and A session I must say, well done all. Although Mark Finn is ever the apple polisher. I love what onewOrd writes about how Jon just says whatever and runs from the truth. And how Pontifex just says his mind and makes a nearly perfect assesment of how the game is. This is the first actual posting session I have been in where for the most part the ####ties have stayed home. I try to disregard him saying that Firelord is a cop out. Hmmmm gee someone made LE's and to win them I have to use the best team possible. So be it lame or whatever, the masterminds of the game did it too themselves by creating winnable figures at tournaments. But the only biggest strategy in the game is taxiing. You have to maneuver around either a taxi and his charge recipient or a taxi and his ranged comrade. This ends up being the biggest part of the game because if you can hit the first shot on your opponents biggest character before he hits yours you will end up winning most of your tournament games. MY teams for 200.

Marvel: R Firelord 66
V Bullseye 43
V Doombot 38
U Elektra 36
V A. I. M Medic 17

DC: V Bane 85
R Hawk 45
E Booster Gold 38
R Huntress 18
R Checkmate Medic 13

Be it cheap or not these 2 teams have won me 18 out of 20 possible LE's at tournaments and that DC has not lost a single figure in 3 tournaments. I have to say I love playing big 300 and 400 games with friends for fun as well but Wizkids made LE's so if they sell for at times $40 US can you really blame anyone who uses cheese? Obviously no. Jon Leithusser needs a little help in his game play section and creative development. A great example of this would be Doomsday not having Battle Fury, Thanos having Battle Fury and not having Outwit, Spider-man missing out on super senses until CT, and low and behold an ungodly Elektra who may not be 200 point tournament worthy but in all honesty Jon Leithusser's new favorite fun toy for when he plays his little fun games. First point to any real game is to win!!!! Hello!!!

P.S Has anyone ever had the bright inclanation to get rid of support in general? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of super heroes- villains in the first place? That should probably have been thought of a long time ago eh? But taxiing is the only way to make more than half the figures playable. What does everyone else think?

[mulkabu]

.. most replies have stated how good an interview it was. I'm VERY impressed with JL and his forthcomingness. Mnay companies' give interview which provoke the
"Don't pee on my leg and tell its raining" response.
This guy is sraight up! And all -MOST - of us appreciate that.

Brian

[Pontifex]

Originally posted by shin-goji


There's your problem, you've played Games Workshop games.

The game is fine as is, personally, and doesn't need an overhaul in points or tactics.

I'm not saying that it needs an overhaul - just a few tweaks here and there. The game rules are fine, it's just that there are some PIECES that don't fit well.

[nedleeds]

Originally posted by Thanosied
OH and wait the most intellegent character in all of Marvel, The Mad Titan Thanos does not even get 1 single click of outwit!!! Why is that? Hmmm. Well Jon Leithusser I would love to play with Thanos but oh wait after I get hit I gain Battle Fury and loose the ability to shoot ranged...

I wonder if I have a misprinted Thanos ? Mine does not have battle fury. I pulled it way back last June or so. Strange ... guess that makes up for my Carter Hall with no Close Combat Expert ...

[Mongoose]

Neither my friend nor I own Firelord, but even if we did we typically don't play with the same versions of a character (We don't play with 2 firelords at the time, of we had him that is). Firelod is based off of their point system, so I think that he could be combated (Someone with outwit for his ranged combat expert). If anything Wizkids really needs to redo Magneto. I mean they totally jacked him. If there is a 160 point Elektra, then there better be a 160+ point Magneto.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Doomtoy
Are they going to put Spidey and Wolvie in every set? Quite likely. These figures SELL. These are the figures that are WANTED by a majority of the potential customers. They'd be crazy not to put them in the set! Not everyone HAS a hobby shop in walking distance, and a lot of those hobby shops don't sell singles! Hell, MY hobby shop DOES sell singles, and rotsa ruck buying a Spider-Man! The only ones who don't sell instantly are the Uniques, and even THEY don't last more than a couple of weeks in the case! This, DESPITE him being an "overcosted weenie!"


Please. You don't need a hobby shop to buy singles, and you are greatly overstating the difficulty in getting Spiderman and Wolverines. I just got a Spider-man - E for $.80 and a Wolverine - E for $1.09 on ebay. If they were so popular they would be difficult to find in any version. I had a harder time getting a Daredevil - V, before the movie came out.

The uniques are easy to find, too. There are two hobby shops within walking distance of me who have multiples of both Spidey uniques. Wolverine - U is harder to find but not impossible, mainly because he is the best Wolverine (until the Logan - V) came out.

People are paying insane prices for the Nightcrawler - U because everyone wants to play him.

Bottom line, putting Spider-man and Wolverine into every expansion does make for good marketing. But I think they can stop with the Wolverines now, and the latest Spider-man is glue-bate. What were the sculptor's thinking?

[ducko5]

Regaurding the "tactics vs. fun" debate, I once had my joker shoot one of his own lackeys, because the game wasn't going well for him, and he needed to take it out on someone.

I ALWAYS have fun when I play.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Regault
Hmm. Unfortunately it looks like the next DC expansion will include more pathetic Batman and Superman Uniques. Given the fact the only real variant of Supes left is Superman Blue, I don't think many people will be interested in them though. (Not that that hasn't stopped them before. There's no real difference between Xplosion Spiderman and Daredevil from their IC predecessors aside from their stats, and they still felt compelled to inflict them upon us.)

Hopefully though, the next DC expansion will include a redone Flash with the Titans ability on his rookie version. Although I'm starting to think his "What comics I love" spiel is BS as he claims to like Power Pack and they didn't show up in CT. Which is odd considering they'd have interesting dials, fill a critical hole in the FF team, and have cool sculpts. All I know, is he's had two expansions to impress me with his choice of figures, and the character list for CT was iffy and the list for Xplosion is ten degrees of awful.(Only three figures on the list I want, and one of them is generic.)

Apparently, WizKids core problem with game design is the same as Game's Workshop's. They let the game get play-tested by "good sports". If you want a fair and balanced game, you give it to a bunch of munchkins and see how they figure out how to break it. It seems to me this guy is getting mad about people employing strategy in a strategy game! If I wanted to just get involved in one large tacticsless scrum I'd play MK:Dungeons.

That "I want to ban taxiing" thing has probably got to be the dumbest thing I've heard connected to a game since the latest Games Workshop apologist claimed that Necrons were a balanced army list. Without taxiing the game would be entirely dominated by Ranged Combat Expert and Running Shot. Taxis make the brawler characters worth playing. If he's so tetchy about the running back to a medic thing they should just rule that taxiing can't be used to pull someone out of close combat.

Are you kidding? There are plenty of Uniques out there for the World's Finest...
Various Elseworlds, Pre Crisis world variants, future, and past variants....it goes on at least a half dozen expansions...

And didn't he say he liked Powers? Not Power pack...

[Puuka]

Originally posted by Doctor Strange


Flying characters can ignore terrain for movement and that's it.. no more taxi-ing.



So, this would effectivly make flight the same as Leap Climb, but you can have another move super power. I think it would be better if the made it that you have to break away to pull someone out of battle and drop the Ranged attack ability in close combat with a flier.

[Magneto666]

I thought the interview was great!! The only thing that disappointed me in the whole Q&A session was his answer to the Wolverine/Elektra issue about each set having "repeat" figures....although Jon says they aren't contractually obligated to do it, it looks like Marvel is interested in seeing them in just about every set, which I think is a little sad considering the vast amount of characters in the Marvel universe. Overall, though, I thought the interview was excellent, and I hope to see more of them in the future....keep up the good work!!

[callidusx3]

Just want to throw in my 2 cents that agrees with some of the above criticisms.

If the medic strategy is lame as he believes, then get rid of medics. The only time I ever saw them in a comic was the alien lady in Secret Wars healing Colossus. And that wasn't healing during a fight. I believe its lame and would love to see them go. Now, I wouldn't want to see the support power go away. That'll make the few characters that have it much more useful (Desaad, vet Jean Gray, etc...)

The taxi situation is as everyone has noted, complex and 2-sided. Sure, its unrealistic now but if one gets rid of it then you're left with a game that runs too slow. The suggestion that you can't taxi someone out of close combat is a good one (though I do recall that happening more often in comics than people getting taxi'd in).

Firelord should have been errata'd within 6 months of release of IC, having all subsequent runs print a modified cost (+10). Just like they did to the misprinted Pyro. I agree one can deal with Firelord on the table top, but when a figure is improperly designed (as Jon must know if he thinks the cost should be higher) then you fix it like other games do.

And kudos to Jon for a nice CT set and what seems to be an equally strong set in Xplosion.

Henry R.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Thanosied
After reading all the responses to Jon Leithusser's Q and A session I must say, well done all. Although Mark Finn is ever the apple polisher. I love what onewOrd writes about how Jon just says whatever and runs from the truth. And how Pontifex just says his mind and makes a nearly perfect assesment of how the game is. This is the first actual posting session I have been in where for the most part the ####ties have stayed home. I try to disregard him saying that Firelord is a cop out. Hmmmm gee someone made LE's and to win them I have to use the best team possible. So be it lame or whatever, the masterminds of the game did it too themselves by creating winnable figures at tournaments. But the only biggest strategy in the game is taxiing. You have to maneuver around either a taxi and his charge recipient or a taxi and his ranged comrade. This ends up being the biggest part of the game because if you can hit the first shot on your opponents biggest character before he hits yours you will end up winning most of your tournament games. MY teams for 200.

Marvel: R Firelord 66
V Bullseye 43
V Doombot 38
U Elektra 36
V A. I. M Medic 17

DC: V Bane 85
R Hawk 45
E Booster Gold 38
R Huntress 18
R Checkmate Medic 13

Be it cheap or not these 2 teams have won me 18 out of 20 possible LE's at tournaments and that DC has not lost a single figure in 3 tournaments. I have to say I love playing big 300 and 400 games with friends for fun as well but Wizkids made LE's so if they sell for at times $40 US can you really blame anyone who uses cheese? Obviously no. Jon Leithusser needs a little help in his game play section and creative development. A great example of this would be Doomsday not having Battle Fury, Thanos having Battle Fury and not having Outwit, Spider-man missing out on super senses until CT, and low and behold an ungodly Elektra who may not be 200 point tournament worthy but in all honesty Jon Leithusser's new favorite fun toy for when he plays his little fun games. First point to any real game is to win!!!! Hello!!!

P.S Has anyone ever had the bright inclanation to get rid of support in general? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of super heroes- villains in the first place? That should probably have been thought of a long time ago eh? But taxiing is the only way to make more than half the figures playable. What does everyone else think?

Actually, accoding to the interview, he didn't get on board until after IC, and didn't really have a hand in things until CT...so arguing that IC Spiderman, Thanos, and Doomsday are his fualt is a little foolish. Sorry to steal some of the wind from your soapbox...

And especially since he's done his best to give the fans a Spiderman that they've been wanting...I'd say it's a little harsh to rail on him...

Though I do agree with the Elektra thing.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Thanosied
To no ones surprise my favorite 2 characters are Thanos and the Hulk. The reason for the bitterness or more the frustration is the fact that too my knowledge Wizkids has failed in a few attempts now to get these characters and others like them right!!!

I have seen game mechanics that make certain characters great and certain charaters not so great but when people keep yapping about playing with the characters they like and the way they should be played.... MY GOD!!!! I have to slap myself just so I know that I'm not in a DREAM. I pretty sure the Hulk needs to be moved around by a stupid Telekinetic person to be useful in the comics!!! Oh Spider-Man can't dodge but he can shield his allies!!! OH and wait the most intellegent character in all of Marvel, The Mad Titan Thanos does not even get 1 single click of outwit!!! Why is that? Hmmm. Well Jon Leithusser I would love to play with Thanos but oh wait after I get hit I gain Battle Fury and loose the ability to shoot ranged... Oh so great a description of a guy who always waits and shoots double gauntlet blasts or back hands everyone... I would love to use the Hulk which I do on occasion, but after I push 5 times to be able to do anything and finally get into the fight. The fight has ended and the Hulk is wondering what happened... Or I could shell out the $150-200 US for the I may be playable Hulk (Bruce Banner). Do people see what I am getting act? What Wizkids needs is accurate character designs for the basis of the game. If Wizkids wants to see matchups like they get in the comics they have to sit down and use there heads to get a resonable BALANCE to the teams. And the job of the PLAYTESTERS should not only be basing the power of the characters but there ability to aid and help a team against another team.

But see again, all IC characters, meaning before Jon's time. And Marvel didn't have Outwit at the time. So I don't see why you can be angry about that for Thanos. And the set that Jon has had a hand in does have a playable Hulk, and another one is coming out that should be fairly impressive. All under Jon...so I don't know where all this animosity is coming from.

[Meepo]

Black Panther doesn't have Outwit anymore, no one argue with Jadehorde, his logic and researching skills are sound.

[bakija]

And once again, I am baffled by the comments of the lead game designer. Ok, not baffled that someone would think such a thing, but baffled that the *lead game designer* would lack the necessary understanding of game theory to say such things.

John wrote:
>>Hit him a couple of times and he's gone.>>

Yup. Hit any figure a couple of times, and he's gone. Yet most of them aren't painfully undercosted.

>>If I had my druthers (heh, I said druthers), he'd be maybe 10-15 points more than he is now, but that's all.>>

That's all? That is huge.

>>I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think.>>

Now this is simply apalling. That such a unit exists that can be used as a crutch by players who don't want to have to think is a problem. And what if such a crutch is used by players who think quite a bit?

>>Build your team, run up and beat the snot out of each other until there's a clear winner. That's how the comics work.>>

Yet that isn't how the game works, which John acknowledges. As the freaking *lead game designer* isn't his responsibility to make this happen, rather than say things like "if you want a balanced game, don't play this one" and "well, this unit is just a crutch for dumb people..."

For the love of G'Quan.

-Peter

[Veggiehater]

Originally posted by GroovyBoy
A little birdy told me you created an R/E/V version of "hungry" Galactus for a goof. Care to tell us a little about it?

[Jon Leithusser] Yeah, I did do that. Everyone was making noise that they'd like to see one and I was curious as to how he might look, so I wrote him up. I honestly don't think he'll ever get made because any game with him involved would take too long and include too many points. I'm sure everyone thinks it would be 'kewl' and all, but it probably won't happen. Sorry, I'd like to see it, too.

<snip>

He's so far outside the realm of usability that he's silly. Anyway, I think investing 1000 points in a figure so you can take a couple of actions, then sitting back while your opponent(s) takes ten actions is boring.


Jon,

If you are listening I've got two words for you... Conquest Rules! ;)

Mr. Leithusser says that playing as Galactus would probably end up being boring since your opponent will get to perform 10 actions
to your couple (not including all the free move that will be going around). Well what if they create Heroclix Conquest rules, similar to MK where each player gets 1 action per 200 points of the build? All they'd have to do then is find a way to restrict the free moving (taxi) abuse and they're pretty much set! :)

Just wanted to throw in a suggestion since I really want to see a Galactus fig as well.

VH

[Nevest]

I would just like to thank Jon for answering some questions that a lot of us have had. I really enjoyed hearing his thoughts on these issues and it makes me feel a little better about the future of HeroClix.

I think making the movement in HeroClix a little more like Mage Knight and eliminating the taxiing ability could be interesting. It wouldn't really slow down the game and could work to balance it very well.

Firelord isn't really an issue for me or anyone I play with. There are three possible places I can travel to and play HeroClix. They are each an hour away and each in different directions. They have no ties to each other and have all banned Firelord from tournament play. It makes the teams all much more creative and everyone seems to agree that he's underpriced and hurts the game. Jon can't be expected to go back and change a figure that's been around for a year or two now and was created long before he even began working there.

I liked CT a lot and am very much looking forward to Xplosion.

Keep up the good work Jon!

[Mad]

Originally posted by callidusx3

Firelord should have been errata'd within 6 months of release of IC, having all subsequent runs print a modified cost (+10). Just like they did to the misprinted Pyro.

Henry R.

Good interview. Peter and others made some very valid points (I will leave it vague). A comment on the above quote. Even though I agree that he left room for speculation this time, the prior interviews (especially when he told about the designing of Sinestro) made it pretty clear that he doesn't "fudge" the points directly. He "plays" with the numbers and powers and runs them through the spread sheet until he gets the desired results. So, I don't think if he had designed the FL he would have arbitrarily increased the cost but changed numbers and abilities around to increase the cost instead. This is why I don't think a reprint of the exactly same character with a higher cost is an option.

[bakija]

Mad wrote:
>>This is why I don't think a reprint of the exactly same character with a higher cost is an option.>>

They could just give him 8 clicks of incapacitate...

:-)

-Peter

[JonL]

I've never posted here and I'm not going to make a practice of it, but I felt like I needed to respond to some of comments that people have made.

First, I do check out some of the forums, both here and on WizKids' site. I appreciate your feedback and I think about a lot of your ideas and suggestions while working up character lists and dials.

Second, don't tell me what I'm thinking. Don't tell me what you think I'm saying. This interview was 100% what I thought. I was asked questions and I gave honest and complete answers. If you're not happy with them, don't speculate about what I really meant. There was no spin-doctoring involved.

Third, the reason I say Firelord should "only" be 10-15 points more is because I've heard of stores that allow you to play him only if you add 60 to his printed point cost.

Fourth, I didn't start designing the game until after Infinity Challenge was released, so don't ride me about this or that character from IC being "wrong". Those stats are how the game designer at the time interpreted the character. I've already said I'd like to make a lot of changes to many of those characters; power-up Captain America, Firelord would cost more, Thanos wouldn't fly (except when he has the Infinity Gauntlet), he'd teleport, Spider-Man would be much different, etc. etc. Think before you respond.

Fifth, the inclusion of certain characters in numerous sets is a process. I make my suggestions and there is feedback from Marvel and from inside WizKids (i.e. the Marketing department). It's important for us to provide you with a product you want, while also being able to appeal to a wider audience. You're our core. The people we love and rely on, but we have to have the "signature characters" so that the set appeals to people who haven't discovered the game yet. In addition, I may be the lead game designer on HeroClix, but my word is not law within the company when it comes to HeroClix. A lot of people have input, my input is given more weight, but it's still a cooperative process that invovles many people.

Sixth, I didn't write the rules to the game and I would think you'd like that fact that I'm taking my time and giving serious thought to whether I should change certain key rules or not. How much more would you hate it if I made a ruling and then had to change it, and change it again? I'd like get it right the first time.

Seventh, I don't think it's lame that you play to win. I think everyone enjoys the game for different reasons. I just think there are different ways to go about it than falling back on Firelord teams. Maybe he is the most effective, but how would you ever know if you don't play other combinations?

Eighth, we weren't going to do LE's for HeroClix, but everyone asked for them. We responded to requests from our fan base. Honestly, if I thought it would improve the game I'd be in favor of getting rid of them. Really, though, I don't think anyone wants that, so I'm not going to even suggest it.

Ninth, obviously if you hit any figure a couple of times it goes away. I don't think that shows a lack of knowledge of the game. What I'd hoped you'd take from me saying that is that Firelord's only defense is a high defense value. He's got no significant defense powers. Hammer him, don't let up, and he's gone.

Tenth, I probably wouldn't have included Support as a power. It's not comic-booky, but I have to deal with the fact that it exists. If your opponent has a medic, take it out. They're easy to hit, have very few clicks, and will seriously weaken his limited tactics.

Eleventh, this is in response to people who want certain characters in a set. I'd like to get some characters into the game, but I know it probably won't happen. Power Pack?! Give me a break! Yes, I love 'em, but the liklihood of them ever showing up is pretty small. They haven't had a book for well over a decade and there are only a few people who'd really like to see them. I have to take everything into account when I design a character list, not just what I and a few other fans want to see.

Finally, I want to thank you for some good comments. I really appreciate that you have some intelligent things to say. I'm also happy to hear that some of you liked the interview. To the others, I hope someday I can say something to make you happy.

Thanks,

Jon Leitheusser
HeroClix Game Designer

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by Meepo
Black Panther doesn't have Outwit anymore, no one argue with Jadehorde, his logic and researching skills are sound.


Woops!! Whoa, that was a catotonic brain fart....

Was thinking Perplex for some reason...

OK, valid point, though I'd argue there are probably better powers for the Mad Titan at least for some of the dial...

Still, Jon wasn't in charge of IC, so ranting about how terrible it was to various characters and gameplay, indirectly, or even directly in some posts, blaming him for all that is a little unfair.

Especially since he's attempted to fix the mistakes that have been made, at least with the common characters...I wouldn't be surprised if some other weakened characters get facelifts later on...

So for the sets he's been in charge of, the characters have been overall pretty faithful and balanced...it may not be up to him to go back and retroactively change things.

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by JonL
I've never posted here and I'm not going to make a practice of it, but I felt like I needed to respond to some of comments that people have made.

First, I do check out some of the forums, both here and on the WizKids' site. I appreciate your feedback and I think about a lot of your ideas and suggestions while working up character lists and dials.

Second, don't tell me what I'm thinking. Don't tell me what you think I'm saying. This interview was 100% what I thought. I was asked questions and I gave honest and complete answers. If you're not happy with them, don't speculate about what I really meant. There was no spin-doctoring involved.

Third, the reason I say Firelord should "only" be 10-15 points more is because I've heard of stores that allow you to play him only if you add 60 to his printed point cost.

Fourth, I didn't start designing the game until after Infinity Challenge was released, so don't ride me about this or that character from IC being "wrong". Those stats are how the game designer at the time interpreted the character. I've already said I'd like to make a lot of changes to many of those characters; power-up Captain America, Firelord would cost more, Thanos wouldn't fly (except when he has the Infinity Gauntlet), he'd teleport, Spider-Man would be much different, etc. etc. Think before you respond.

Fifth, the inclusion of certain characters in numerous sets is a process. I make my suggestions and there is feedback from Marvel and from inside WizKids (i.e. the Marketing department). It's important for us to provide you with a product you want, while also being able to appeal to a wider audience. You're our core. The people we love and rely on, but we have to have the "signature characters" so that the set appeals to people who haven't discovered the game yet. In addition, I may be the lead game designer on HeroClix, but my word is not law within the company when it comes to HeroClix. A lot of people have input, my input is given more weight, but it's still a cooperative process that invovles many people.

Sixth, I didn't write the rules to the game and I would think you'd like that fact that I'm taking my time and giving serious thought to whether I should change certain key rules or not. How much more would you hate it if I made a ruling and then had to change it, and change it again? I'd like get it right the first time.

Seventh, I don't think it's lame that you play to win. I think everyone enjoys the game for different reasons. I just think there are different ways to go about it than falling back on Firelord teams. Maybe he is the most effective, but how would you ever know if you don't play other combinations?

Eighth, we weren't going to do LE's for HeroClix, but everyone asked for them. We responded to requests from our fan base. Honestly, if I thought it would improve the game I'd be in favor of getting rid of them. Really, though, I don't think anyone wants that, so I'm not going to even suggest it.

Ninth, obviously if you hit any figure a couple of times it goes away. I don't think that shows a lack of knowledge of the game. What I'd hoped you'd take from me saying that is that Firelord's only defense is a high defense value. He's got no significant defense powers. Hammer him, don't let up, and he's gone.

Tenth, I probably wouldn't have included Support as a power. It's not comic-booky, but I have to deal with the fact that it exists. If your opponent has a medic, take it out. They're easy to hit, have very few clicks, and will seriously weaken his limited tactics.

Eleventh, this is in response to people who want certain characters in a set. I'd like to get some characters into the game, but I know it probably won't happen. Power Pack?! Give me a break! Yes, I love 'em, but the liklihood of them ever showing up is pretty small. They haven't had a book for well over a decade and there are only a few people who'd really like to see them. I have to take everything into account when I design a character list, not just what I and a few other fans want to see.

Finally, I want to thank you for some good comments. I really appreciate that you have some intelligent things to say. I'm also happy to hear that some of you liked the interview. To the others, I hope someday I can say something to make you happy.

Thanks,

Jon Leitheusser
HeroClix Game Designer

Right on! And I'm sorry to see that you had to go to the effort of defending yourself. That you went to the effort of answering the initial interview as candidly as you did (far better than the offical stuff so far) was an unexpected bonus, but that people couldn't leave it alone is a shame.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Well, I liked the inside info. All this hate thrown at him makes me sad.

Jon, thanks for making a great game. Nothing in this world is perfect. You are subjected to handling a game that was created by another and you are now asked to continue someone elses work (not an easy task).

The majority of us like the job you have done and anxiously await the next expansion. Now if only you would make:

1. Flying generics for SHIELD, Hydra and the Skrulls.
2. A leadership and support (eek!) piece for the Skrulls.
3. Basically remake every figure five times and remember to do what everyone tells you...

Then I think everyone would be happy. ;)

[bakija]

Jadehorde wrote:
>>That you went to the effort of answering the initial interview as candidly as you did (far better than the offical stuff so far) was an unexpected bonus, but that people couldn't leave it alone is a shame.>>

It isn't a shame, it is discourse. Don't get me wrong here--I think it is fantastic that Jon went out on a limb and gave a reasonable interview, and I, for one, certainly appreciate that he both cares enough to do interviews and put thought into the game.

However, I have seen two interviews with him, and in both of them, he has made comments that I'm simply confused that someone in his position would make. I fully realize that he isn't responsible for the basic rules and the IC set (and heck, he did very well with the CT set, which is fantastic), but taking the stance of essentially "this game isn't meant to be taken seriously, so it doesn't really matter that certain aspects of it don't work" and "well, that figure might be too cheap, which I accept, but that just means that poor players will use it instead of thinking" strikes me is questionable, at best.

I'd much rather see statements/sentiments along the lines of "well, mistakes were made, and we are trying to fix them, even if only obliquely", which seems to be what Jon actually believes, based on his comments. But that is me.

-Peter

[lukebuchanan]

Ah He11 Jon, some people piss and moan just for the sake of it........you should run from this forum as certain whiners will continue to argue the same points over and over and over until their Mom's call them out for dinner, from the bedroom they've been living in for the past 30 years. Keep on doing your job......no matter what everyone here is buying.

And great interview, and screw anyone who tells you what you're thinking. People think they know everything when really only Hulk does.

LUKE SMASH

[shin-goji]

1. Flying generics for SHIELD, Hydra and the Skrulls.

To heck with that! give me a Skrull Medic :) :) :)

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by bakija
Jadehorde wrote:
>>That you went to the effort of answering the initial interview as candidly as you did (far better than the offical stuff so far) was an unexpected bonus, but that people couldn't leave it alone is a shame.>>

It isn't a shame, it is discourse. Don't get me wrong here--I think it is fantastic that Jon went out on a limb and gave a reasonable interview, and I, for one, certainly appreciate that he both cares enough to do interviews and put thought into the game.

However, I have seen two interviews with him, and in both of them, he has made comments that I'm simply confused that someone in his position would make. I fully realize that he isn't responsible for the basic rules and the IC set (and heck, he did very well with the CT set, which is fantastic), but taking the stance of essentially "this game isn't meant to be taken seriously, so it doesn't really matter that certain aspects of it don't work" and "well, that figure might be too cheap, which I accept, but that just means that poor players will use it instead of thinking" strikes me is questionable, at best.

I'd much rather see statements/sentiments along the lines of "well, mistakes were made, and we are trying to fix them, even if only obliquely", which seems to be what Jon actually believes, based on his comments. But that is me.

-Peter

Haha CT is fantastic...LOL

Ok, well that is reasonable and something I was going for too. I had seen too many posts, perhaps hastily thought up (mine were), that basically burned him at the stake. I'm glad you realized that he didn't have to give us any info, and that pushing him too far will just make him not say anything.

I'm glad you realized many of the problems that people have been having aren't his fault...I do agree with you that he should have been a little more proactive in his solutions to some of the problems he inherited, but maybe he couldn't say it due to office politics?? Whatever, he could have been a little more helpful on an official word on some of these things, but I think he's been doing his best...and without a true window into the backroom, there is no way to know how much he can actually do about some of the problems.

[SpiderClone]

First, I'd like to thank you for answering GroovyBoy's email, it's hard to find someone working for a company that would take the time to answer emails of fans.

Second, I was just wondering if the Scarlet Spider has any chance of being made. It's my understanding that a lot of people hate the clone saga, but like the character. If you read the post I started a couple weeks ago, I'd say that many people are closet Scarlet Spider fans (his vote count jumped to 18 while the SS thread was around). If you could be so kind as to PM me or post a reply on the board, I'd really appreciate it. Scarlet is the only figure I'm hoping will be made. I know it's hard to keep all players happy, and therefore making choices about upcoming characters is tough. So I guess my next question would be: how much do you take into account the characters that are controversial?

Thanks for your response.

Alex

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by bakija
"this game isn't meant to be taken seriously, so it doesn't really matter that certain aspects of it don't work" and "well, that figure might be too cheap, which I accept, but that just means that poor players will use it instead of thinking" -Peter

Hmmmm. I must have missed this quote.

**Goes back and reads the post**

Nope, not there.

I think you are reading into things too much. He says that if you are worrying about a tournament and the only thing that counts is a win, then of course it is a no brainer to take the most efficient figure.

He also comes aross as a person much like myself: enjoys the funner aspect of the game- playing a "less-strategic team an beating the snot out of each other". Just because you view the game differently does not allow you to put words into his mouth.

[bakija]

Jadehorde wrote:
>>Haha CT is fantastic...LOL>>

I dunno--I think the set is pretty solid. Sure, there are some particularly weak figures (Hawkeye and BW come to mind), but weak figures aren't problematic, in terms of game play. There aren't, as far as I can tell, any figures that are too powerful, however, indicating that they probably tried hard to avoid that, which is a good thing.

>>Whatever, he could have been a little more helpful on an official word on some of these things, but I think he's been doing his best...and without a true window into the backroom, there is no way to know how much he can actually do about some of the problems.>>

I certainly think he is doing his best, and I certainly appreciate the effort he puts in to the game. But still, I think from a public relations standpoint, he could probably re-angle some of his statements :-)

-Peter

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by shin-goji


To heck with that! give me a Skrull Medic :) :) :)

Hey, you stopped reading too soon:

2. A leadership and support (eek!) piece for the Skrulls. ;)

[bakija]

DS-00-0 FSD wrote:
>>Just because you view the game differently does not allow you to put words into his mouth.>>

Didn't put words into his mouth. The first statement is a paraphrase from an earlier interview. The second is a paraphrase from this one (a combination of "Firelord is a crutch" and "I would have made Firelord 10-15 points more expensive").

-Peter

[shin-goji]

Mmmmm, tasty skrull medics...tastes like chicken....ON WEED!!

[Manchine]

Wow some people can never be happy.

Keep up the good work Jon!!!

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Originally posted by bakija
DS-00-0 FSD wrote:
>>Just because you view the game differently does not allow you to put words into his mouth.>>

Didn't put words into his mouth. The first statement is a paraphrase from an earlier interview. The second is a paraphrase from this one (a combination of "Firelord is a crutch" and "I would have made Firelord 10-15 points more expensive").

-Peter

Paraphrase: restatement of words, retaining meaning

I'd argue that what you did was not, in fact, a paraphrase. You are interpreting that he equates poor playing with the use of Firelord by taking it out of context.

From his inital response:

I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think. Is that a mean thing to say? I dunno, but there are so many interesting characters and combinations of powers and abilities that it seems a shame to say, "Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic." Yippee. What fun. I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire.

I believe his seventh point in his follow up reinforces that. He even brings up that Firelord is perhaps one of the most efficient pieces.

[Mushroomfantas]

No galactus...?


:(

[proditor]

I don't know, I have never used Firelord in even a friendly game, I play only themed teams (Avengers, Brotherhood, etc.) rarely use medics, and I found his statements offensive.

I find it offensive for one reason only.

He's saying that people who play the game using taxis, medics and firelord are lazy and violating the "spirit" of the genre.

Then change the rules.

Your company wrote them, don't complain that people exploit them to..and here's the shocker...try to win a competitive game.

I don't compete, if I ever get an LE it'll be a weak moment on E-bay. I just think it's really low to blame players for exploiting weaknesses that they wrote. WoTC is doing it too with D&D 3.5.

While I appreciate the interview, and I like the tidbits and I agree with 95% of everything Jon said...just own up to the fact that the rules have holes. DO NOT blame the players for exploiting them.

The first time I see a company do that, own up to a mistake completely, I may just faint.

[bakija]

DS-00-0 FSD wrote:
>>I'd argue that what you did was not, in fact, a paraphrase. You are interpreting that he equates poor playing with the use of Firelord by taking it out of context.>>

Looking at the direct quote, in context:

>>From his inital response:

I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think. Is that a mean thing to say?>>

Firelord is looked at as a crutch used by players who don't want to think. I don't think it is unreasonable to equate "don't want to have to think" with "poor playing". Heck, he seems to do just that, by wondering if it was a mean thing to say...

-Peter

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Come on Peter, try to keep up here. Your still taking it out of context by ignoring the last part of the statement:

I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire.

He's not equating lack of thought with poor playing. He's equating not thinking to people who do not look outside the box and try other things. The same people who use the same firelord/Bullseye/Wasp/Medic crew over and over.

Poor playing and lack of imagination are not the same thing.

[dolemite199]

bakija wrote,

Firelord is looked at as a crutch used by players who don't want to think. I don't think it is unreasonable to equate "don't want to have to think" with "poor playing". Heck, he seems to do just that, by wondering if it was a mean thing to say...

Not wanting to think is most definatley not the same thing as poor playing. Perhaps John could have rephrased his answer to that question to avoid any confusion about his opinion(s) on Firelord.

Firelord is a crutch that power gamers use to win tournaments. He is a crutch because he is the most effiecnet HC figure out there. That is why Firelord has been, is, and always will be a crutch to the power gamers. Individuals will pull out all stops when a prize that can be turned into american currency is at stake. It is not the glory of winning that cause people to play with Firelord on a competitave level, but that little plastic LE figure that is worth $40.00 plus dollars to the right buyer. There are the collectors who will want that LE either by winning it, or buying it. We can debate all we want about what can be changed with Firelord. However, this will not fix the Firelord issue. Another power gamer will find another way to exploit him or another figure, and we will again expereince this situation with something new. Wizkids is a multi-million dollar company. They have more important things to worry about than whether or not we think a product they have sold us is incorrectly made and ruins tournaments that we play at. I feel that Firelord is fine as he is. If you are gonna play with him, great. I will even play with him. But raising a stink to the man that ultimately chooses who and what is in existing and furture HC sets is not going to help. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

John is kind enough to listen to our opinions and wishes. The last thing we should do is lash out at him for things we feel should be changed as posters on this very thread have done. Be happy that a company has finally made a game based on Comic books we read that does not suck.

I want to thank John for taking the time to answer some questions from the fans. Keep up the good work Wizkids.

[Paptimus]

Well, I just wanted to say to Jon: why did you do this to Mr Fantastic?????? :D

[Jadehorde]

Originally posted by bakija
Jadehorde wrote:
>>Haha CT is fantastic...LOL>>

I dunno--I think the set is pretty solid. Sure, there are some particularly weak figures (Hawkeye and BW come to mind), but weak figures aren't problematic, in terms of game play. There aren't, as far as I can tell, any figures that are too powerful, however, indicating that they probably tried hard to avoid that, which is a good thing.

>>Whatever, he could have been a little more helpful on an official word on some of these things, but I think he's been doing his best...and without a true window into the backroom, there is no way to know how much he can actually do about some of the problems.>>

I certainly think he is doing his best, and I certainly appreciate the effort he puts in to the game. But still, I think from a public relations standpoint, he could probably re-angle some of his statements :-)

-Peter

No I meant you made something of a pun with that comment...the CT set being fantastic..I liked it too, just thought your comment whether intentional or not was pretty funny

[bizzaro]

Originally posted by SpiderClone
Second, I was just wondering if the Scarlet Spider has any chance of being made. It's my understanding that a lot of people hate the clone saga, but like the character. If you read the post I started a couple weeks ago, I'd say that many people are closet Scarlet Spider fans (his vote count jumped to 18 while the SS thread was around

I'd be sooo disappointed if scarlet spider was made before we saw silver surfer, namor, to name a few. I realize others feel different ..but the clone saga turned me off to the spiderman titles. But hey ... I thought Onslaught was the ultimate cop-out of a character too. Very sad indeed.

All in all ... I liked the interview. I'd like it if he posted his complete stats for galactus (out of curiousity).

Also ... I think CT came out really well. I only wish the ration of uniques to REVs wasn't so high ... I have 800+ point army of Blobs due to trying to get a few uniques!

[bakija]

DS-00-0 FSD wrote:
(out of curiosity, what is the origin of your handle? I figure if I'm gonna keep putting in the effort to type it out, I might as well know what it means :-)

>>He's not equating lack of thought with poor playing. He's equating not thinking to people who do not look outside the box and try other things. >>

Oh. Ok. That's what you are talking about. I'll buy that.

-Peter

[bakija]

Zeb wrote:
>>They have more important things to worry about than whether or not we think a product they have sold us is incorrectly made and ruins tournaments that we play at.>>

Umm, wha? That is the *most* important thing they have to worry about. Whether or not their product works. Whether or not we think a product they have sold us is incorrectly made is what drives their entire industry. If their player base thinks that they have been sold in impropperly working product, and they don't fix it, their player base abandons them, and their multi-million dollar company crumbles to dust.

>>But raising a stink to the man that ultimately chooses who and what is in existing and furture HC sets is not going to help.>>

If that doesn't help, nothing will.

>> Never bite the hand that feeds you. >>

Yes. A good concept for everyone to understand, as well as keeping in mind that players (i.e. customers) are the hand.

-Peter

[bakija]

Jadehorde wrote:
>> No I meant you made something of a pun with that comment...the CT set being fantastic..I liked it too, just thought your comment whether intentional or not was pretty funny>>

Oh, heh heh. I'm durned funny, I am :-)

And boy, are my arms tired...

-Peter

[Doctor Strange]

Chess is the only minature game that does not have cheese.

[getdraino]

okay, i couldn't get past page 6, so i'm just going to post and be done. i enjoyed the interview, it's nice to see what people on the inside have to say about their own product.
i am annoyed that you people can't just take this game as what it is, a game, and have fun with it. instead you gripe about one figure that you think is a little over balanced (which i'm not going to argue for or against) and usually don't have much of anything nice to say.
if you think that the "pineapple" has carp on it, then don't buy any. quit griping about how certain characters keep showing up in each set. they're the most popular, so it is just logical that wizkids would keep making new versions of them (well, except for elektra, but she is a strong female character, so kudos for at least trying to be thoughtful in a small way).
i play it for the sheer enjoyment and collect because it's what i do and i enjoy every frustrating second of it. if you don't, then i don't see why you're on this site enough to have the time to rant a page about something that has been rehashed over and over and over again on many threads.
and i'm not saying to stop giving input on how to make the game better. i just believe that you shouldn't gripe at wizkids like they owe you something. you decided to get into this game because they are offering a product that appeals to you. if you don't like it, take your money and your two cents somewhere else. i know i won't mind.

sorry if i offend anyone, but the negative vibe that always seems to pop up just makes me tired and depressed about something i'm supposed to be enjoying as a hobby.

[Keleko]

Personally, I prefer to look at Firelord teams as a challenge to my skills. They are there to be beaten, not whined about. So far I have beaten one Firelord team in tournament play and lost twice to another. I've lost to plenty other non-Firelord teams, too. I've beaten many other non-Firelord teams as well. This is probably because one of my philosophies at playing the game is try to use every figure at least once in game play. Every figure has its uses. I'm gonna use them. I'll probably have a few figures I use a lot because they're more useful than others, but I have played figures like Blob and CT Elektra in tournament play and enjoyed doing it.

[Castiglione]

Originally posted by onew0rd
Genius strategy: "Hit him a couple of times..." Am I the only one who thinks this is the least thought out and most inane comment ever?


Maybe. I mean that's how I have killed Firelord everytime I have faced him...

[dolemite199]

bakija wrote,

Umm, wha? That is the *most* important thing they have to worry about. Whether or not their product works. Whether or not we think a product they have sold us is incorrectly made is what drives their entire industry. If their player base thinks that they have been sold in impropperly working product, and they don't fix it, their player base abandons them, and their multi-million dollar company crumbles to dust.

I was refering to how an aspect of their product effects torunament games. This aspect being Firelord. My fault for not conveying that point better. Wizkids did not design HC for tournament use only, or with tournament play in mind. This was not the driving force behind creating a comic book adaptation clix game. Yes, you can have tournaments with HC, but this is not the defacto reason Wizkids continues to create HC expasions. For us, the gamers, to complain to Wizkids about a figure being broken in the tournament enviornment is a complete waste of time. Wizkids will never ban him, raise his cost, or modify him in any way because there is no substantial business reason to do so. Sure, it would make the tournament community happy to see Wizkids change Firelord, but from Wizkids point of view "WHY". They have already made him, he has been sold, play with him. Customer satisfaction is a dominant goal for any company to achieve, but pleasing a select group of people in a few select situations is simply not going to happen with any business. There is such a thing as consumer choice. If people wish to not purchase or play Heroclix because of a beef they have with how Wizkids makes, chooses, and produces the figures in each HC expansion then great. Wizkids has plenty of other customers that are pleased with the HC product line. Another thing. Wizkid's product line is not linear. They have Mage Knight and Mech Warrior. If everyone who purchases HC where to say stop doing that, Wizkids would still be laughing all the way to the bank.

[bakija]

Zeb wrote:
>> I was refering to how an aspect of their product effects torunament games. This aspect being Firelord. My fault for not conveying that point better.>>

Oh. Ok.

>> Wizkids did not design HC for tournament use only, or with tournament play in mind.>>

No, but Firelord affects the game as a whole--tournament or no. Making the game work for tournament play makes the whole game work better. Fixing Firelord means that new players who pick up the game don't get turned off 'cause they get totally killed by a single figure on a regular basis. The game works just as well "for fun" as it does competetively if it is fixed.

>>For us, the gamers, to complain to Wizkids about a figure being broken in the tournament enviornment is a complete waste of time.>>

I'm not quite sure why. The rules and sets continue to evolve. Even if the FL issue is addressed obliquely rather than directly, that is only good.

>>Wizkids will never ban him, raise his cost, or modify him in any way because there is no substantial business reason to do so.>>

Of course there is. It makes the game work better overall. It is completely in their financial interest to make sure the game works well, is publishing a game that works well is far more profitable than publishing a game that doesn't work well.

-Peter

[Lex Luthor]

Good interview, and thanks to Jon for his time. HC is a great game and as of now still balanced and still fun. Jon, you have a tough job to maintain the balance between the tourny scene and playing for fun. I enjoy both aspects tremendously.

I do feel that WK is biased against tourny play somewhat, dont make the mistake of designing this game away from what are probably your most loyal customers. Think about it, almost every good contest or game or sport has a showcase: Superbowl, NASCAR, Magic pro tourny's, etc. These events define the game, and let Joe Anyman experience vicariously the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. Same should be true of HC. I mean I could enter a Nascar event with my saturn because it would be fun, but I sure wouldnt win! Yet countless auto engineering problems have been worked out by the testing and competition in racing which have ultimately made the family truckster that much better.

Specific constructive criticism for the issues of FL and taxi/medics:

First FL is FL. One (dare I say it...broken) fig out of line with the others out of all the sets so far released is I think acceptable and good players can deal with him ok. I think as more and more options for team building are presented FL will slowly fade out of favor.

Taxi's - I have no problem with taxi's, in fact, I think the game would become cumbersome w/o them. The real problem is the free movement found on so many fliers. The best fix IMHO would be to amend those team abilities to say that you may only *move* for free. If you are taxiing someone then you may not use this team ability.
Thus, you may now taxi back to a medic, but probably dont have the actions left to heal. Or if you decide to use all your actions to pull back and heal, then you will be less able to defend a strike/counterstrike. I really think all most players are asking for is a chance get at FL before he heals because he is easy to damage. Medics are a part of the game, I wouldnt change them either. Just make more figs with multiple arrows so we can shoot them all and get rid of them!

[daredevil11]

Please excuse me gang while I digress and play armchair psychologist . . .

Once again, people want this or that and a few well intentioned people are getting upset about it . . .

Let's take a moment to dissect and analyze the anatomy of a whiner. Why would someone who hates the game and doesn't play, spend lots of time and energy complaining about this or that to that point of causing an anarism? The answer I think is - they wouldn't.

I think there are two types of whiners, those that have a deep seeded fear that something exists or will exist (character or rule) that threatens to destroy their love of the game. We'll call these the "sky is falling" whiners - this is the group I fall into sometimes LOL.

Another kind of whiner is one that likes the game but believes there's a character or rule that would double their enjoyment if only it were created. We'll call these the "pie in the sky" whiners. (I like that incorporated the word sky in both)

Bottom line, whining is a time honored tradition for those that love a game and want to see it continue or get even better.

Of course everyone who loves the game doesn't do this, but when you see someone whining, instead of getting upset at them, realize that they probably love the game as much, maybe more, than you do. Seriously, if they didn't really like this game, they probably would be somewhere else chatting about something else. In short, I think everyone here loves the game, we just have different ways of expressing it.
__________
All that being said, after reading the second part of the thread included JL's post . . .

It seems the prospect of a Creature Commandos set is slim, that makes me sad LOL. . .

I too would like to see the Scarlet Spider, I hated the Clone Saga, but I want a Scarlet Spider. I used to like him in OP too. Don't know why, maybe it was the wishful thinking aspect . . . someone trying to be Spiderman, or maybe it was the cool outfit . . . but I'd like to see him, I can wait though I know there are other figures that will take precedence.

I'd like to see the limited editions and the uniques reproduced at some point as a general, second edition set or something. Made for over the counter sales - I'm not really concerned about resale value, I just want the figures and dials, so whether or not mine is a cloned cheepo is irrelevant to me.

[jolt]

Someone mentioned making Medics take a click of damage when using Support. I like that idea. All you have to do is declare that they have a yellow circle instead of a square for their support power. In other WK games, a circle instead of a square means you take a click of damage when you use that power. That would go a LONG way to removing drawn-out fights where you run to the medic to heal.

I agree with this. Some posters said that removing taxiing and medics would slow down the game but I always thought having them slowed down the game. Move forward, take, damage, retreat, heal, lather, rinse ,repeat. I've always thought the game went much quicker without taxis and medics.

As a side issue on taxis, it never made much sense to me to base it on flying. Wouldn't superstrength have made more sense? Why can Wasp carry Hercules but not the other way around?

Chess is the only minature game that does not have cheese.

It's kind of funny but I stopped playing "normal" chess because I always thought the Queen detracted from the overall play of the game. I much prefer Shogi or Chinese Chess (Xiangqi) for a good game. I never thought of the Queen as cheesy though; it just makes the game less interesting IMO.

jolt

[Thanosied]

I feel weird for saying this but thanks Jon for the response post. It cleared up some issues and made a lot of us feel that someone was listening. The point I was trying to get at is: if you're willing to go back and fix or redo some figs, (Spiderman) why not go back and fix other figs too? (Thanos)
Funny how yourself and many others make mention of possibly having FL 10-15 pts. more. I was at the Canadian Nationals for MTG last summer and sent an email to WizKidz saying that same thing. That was almost a year ago. Unfortunately at the nationals, I had my entire collection of HC figs stolen and several months later started recollecting. If that doesn't show dedication to this game, I don't know what does. My first fig when I started was Thanos and when I started recollecting, he was also the first fig that I bought. I will play different variations of strategies. But when I go to a tournament, I play it like a tournament, "To Win."

p.s. Pontifex, you rule bro.

[Wimbley]

B]I highly doubt that anyone is winning any IC tourneys consistently without Firelord against decent comptetition packing Firelords. End rant. Please own up to your mistakes WK. Again sorry I just couldn't be called lazy for wanting to be competitive.[/B]


im sorry but i have played and won quite a few tourneys without a firelord. now i admet i did use one at first but not the way many others used him i only used him as a taxie for my claw, hello 10 movement to cary around a claw with 10 range now this was the rooky firelord just an fyi but i quickly replaced him with a L.E. anthony tooms err spelling and a doombot and i have been doing a lot better since i got firelord out of the team because what most people do is go for the most pawerfull pice on the bord first if you see a fire lord hit the #### out o it then take out there medics if you can get that dun you won the game. and about taxeing err spelling again i hope it dusnt get baned because i actualy use it like he sed to use it to get my team out in the action as soon as i can now i do have a medic on my team but i use her mostly for her shild abelity i only use her for healing if one of my main peces are about to die but she is allways right there next to him and the others right in the heat o batel i never leave her behind but any ways thats just me and my thoughts so do what you want but try and have fun

l8rz

[dolemite199]

Bakija wrote,

No, but Firelord affects the game as a whole--tournament or no. Making the game work for tournament play makes the whole game work better. Fixing Firelord means that new players who pick up the game don't get turned off 'cause they get totally killed by a single figure on a regular basis. The game works just as well "for fun" as it does competetively if it is fixed.

Your making an assumption that all new players will be palying against a Firelord of some level. This is not the case. My group of friends whom I first started playing with never got a Firelord in our boosters, or played anyone with a Firelord for a few months. Granted if a person who is brand new to the game plays for the first time in a tournament, then he/she will most likely play against Frielord. People are not always introduced to Hero Clix through tournaments. Sure, two friends who just started playing HC can play, and one can abuse Firelord to try and always win. But this is not a common ocurrance. Hero Clix is perfectly fine the way it is. There are some things that could be improved, but those are minimal changes at best.

I'm not quite sure why. The rules and sets continue to evolve. Even if the FL issue is addressed obliquely rather than directly, that is only good.

Yes, it is good to see inovation and change, but do we really need Firelord fixed? Honestly, will an errata by Wizkids make a considerable difference in this game overall? I think it will not.

Of course there is. It makes the game work better overall. It is completely in their financial interest to make sure the game works well, is publishing a game that works well is far more profitable than publishing a game that doesn't work well.

The problem with your argument is that the game does work well. It really does not need any major fixing. There are some slight things that would be nice to see changed, but they are not ruinning the game, or Wizkids ability to generate revenue from their HC product line. Not everyone will be happy with this product. And Wizkids is not trying to please everyone. They simply produce a product that appeals to a braod spectrum of consumers instead of selective targeting this game to the hardcore comic fans. Do you see my point? It is not a good business practice to cator to the needs, wants, and wishes of a select group who want the product they buy to be as such, when that product is sold to a diverse group of consumers. That is the reason that as long as HC is produced we will have people complaining about how there charater should/shouldn't be made, why they created this figure, and why these rules should be changed. I am simply going to accept HC as it is and enjoy it regardless of how I feel it should be designed, marketed, and played.

- Zeb

[KelRiever]

LOL, well, I finally read thi8s and there you have it. Now I know why the game is so off. When you have a game designer separating "fun" from "winning", you have someone who is not nearly evil enough to make a fun balanced game. The whole disturbing spin to me is as if its the players fault that they do things like fly back to heal heroes with medics instead of that there is a fault with the game design that encourages that. Its the game designers job to make the game feel like the comics. One point to give the designer a break-they didn't see things coming-fine. But then you have to question if the designer is really dealing with what people do with the game.

I also like the comment about "Firelord only being 10-15 points more." As if that wouldn't be a signifigantly huge change. For blue and red lord, that is more than a 10-15% increase. Any figure increased/decreased by that amount would change its role in the game.


Again, at least on the positive side, they seem to take into account the comments that people leave. But the interview highlights the fundamental problem with WK game design, I think. Games are played "for fun" as opposed "to win," when good games hold fun and balance, taking in all aspects (including "cheese") into account. I have to break out red infinity challenge spider man again to get him whooped, by any other hero with the same cost, so I can reflect on the amount of fun that it is.

[DoomsDay74]

If he thought medics were lame why did they also come out in DC and CT? Strange...... If Elektra can have 4 different figures why cant Firelord have a new figure and ban the first one? Ive also noticed at tournaments that people are just waiting for the other to make the first move into range so they can attack first. Want that first attack so bad or just not move ..... sounds fun right? Eventually games will just be two people not moving. Maybe people play with the Firelord team to avoid all the slow annoying positioning that lets a battle turn into a boring shuffle of figz. Its also in the hands of the right player a win against any team.

[Jack Squat]

I sympathize with some of these most recent comments, but you have to give Leithusser a break. He came on board long after the rules were written, and he already pointed out that he doesn't have complete control over the game. He can't just change whatever he wants to try to make the game more fun and balanaced and fast-paced at the same time. Give him some time and hopefully the game will move a little further in the right direction with each new release. In the meantime, if you think it's fun to play with taxiis, Firelords, and Medics, go for it--just don't expect everybody to see it that way.

[Pontifex]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
I sympathize with some of these most recent comments, but you have to give Leithusser a break. He came on board long after the rules were written, and he already pointed out that he doesn't have complete control over the game. He can't just change whatever he wants to try to make the game more fun and balanaced and fast-paced at the same time. Give him some time and hopefully the game will move a little further in the right direction with each new release.

Those are good points - but what I find is funny is that anyone who isn't bowing down to JL's words in this thread gets called "whiner", but no one is calling JL a "whiner" for complaining about what we're saying in a free forum. I'm not saying he IS - in fact, I commend him for taking his precious time to respond here. However, it remains that he has come out and told us his opinion that he finds certain things and players "Lame" to use his own word.

Oh, and for the "If you don't like it, stop playing" crowd - keep telling us that, go ahead. But if one of the game designers can't accept some valid criticisms that he has suggested he could eventually address, then that person needs to reconsider his vocation. Game design isn't something to be done with polite and courteous folks in mind. I'm not a powergamer, but I do realize that failing to account for such types will KILL a game. Keep telling us to stop playing, and soon enough we will, and all of a sudden Wizkids will go broke because only the balance-minded minority (which I do fall into when I'm playing, just not when I'm evaluating the RULES of a game) can't spend enough to support the company.

So, to JL and all the rest I say this: If you can't deal with the munchkins, and write rules to reduce their impact, then perhaps chess might be your bag. I hate powergamers and munchkins too, but if I'm spending money on a game, why should I do the work of ensuring that the gamepieces are fairly balanced?

By the way, if you want to see a good example of a game that actually takes powergaming into account and takes advantage of it, check out the card game "Munchkin." It's a different type of game, true, but the fact remains that as long as there are prizes just for winning, then there will be people who will find ways to win, whether or not they are "lame".

[idiodix]

OK, I'll give Mr. Leithusser a break for not being in on the original design, but some of his comments irk me in a way. First I'll say that I like long drawn out games as well as time limited games so taxi's and medics don't bother me at all. When they (especially medics) are on the board, I tend to change my strategy a bit. Does it always work? Of course not, but it's fun trying. It's fun to play the GAME! He talks about battle not being like that in the comics. Well, I've seen Rogue carry a bus in the comics, but she can't in the game. Same with Spidey (along with his spider sense which he didn't get until CT in the form of SS). If we want to go there, then in my opinion, if this game should more acurately represent the comics then the Hulk should be the most powerful, highest costed character in the game. He should have a movement of like 20/Charge (I've seen him leap for miles in the comics) an attack of astronomical proportions, and deal damage like there's no tomorrow. Oh yeah, his regen should start about 5 clicks down since he heals VERY FAST! Does it bother me that he is not costed and rated as such? Heck no! I take the game for what it is. A strategy and war game. With so many variations of characters and super powers, there is going to be imbalance somewhere along the line and it's not going to please everyone.

I have a lot of fun when playing this game. I take it seriously, but I have fun with it. I understand that a lot of self proclaimed comic book purists (no offense intended) will have problems with aspects and rules and characterizations in regards to this GAME. I just accept it for what it is and what it will become.

[bakija]

Dolemite199 wrote:
>> Your making an assumption that all new players will be palying against a Firelord of some level. This is not the case.>>

It is certainly a common occurance. I certainly accept that somewhere someone is playing this game and neither owns nor has ever played against Firelord, but I'd garner that he comes up more often than not, especially in public games (tournaments, in store events, whatever), if for no other reason that he is so good.

>>Hero Clix is perfectly fine the way it is. >>

Certainly a viewpoint, but not the one I hold.

>>There are some things that could be improved, but those are minimal changes at best.>>

Possibly. Or the game could use a major overhaul. Either way works.

>>Yes, it is good to see inovation and change, but do we really need Firelord fixed? Honestly, will an errata by Wizkids make a considerable difference in this game overall? I think it will not.>>

Yeah, see, but I think it would. Make a considerable difference. The competetive/public aspect of this game would open up considerably, as many currently fringe units would become useful. What I always ask is--how would it *hurt* the game to errata Firelord? Sure, sure, one could always say "but if they errata Firelord, then they'll errata everything! AAAAHHH!", which doesn't have to be the case. Given a situation where Firelord is given pinpoint, laser guided errata of some type (Increase in cost? Loss of RCE? Something.), and nothing else changes in the world, how would this be bad?

>>The problem with your argument is that the game does work well.>>

See, again, viewpoint that I don't hold. The game works pretty well, but has a few major problems that keep it from being a great game, and Firelord is one of them.

>>And Wizkids is not trying to please everyone. They simply produce a product that appeals to a braod spectrum of consumers instead of selective targeting this game to the hardcore comic fans. Do you see my point?>>

Of course I see your point--I just don't believe that such a point is a valid excuse for refusing to make a superior product.

>>It is not a good business practice to cator to the needs, wants, and wishes of a select group who want the product they buy to be as such, when that product is sold to a diverse group of consumers.>>

But it is good buisness practice to make a superior product. If catering to the needs and wishes of that select few result in a superior product for everyone, of course it is good buisness practice to cater to them, as everyone benefits, including the buisness in question.

>>I am simply going to accept HC as it is and enjoy it regardless of how I feel it should be designed, marketed, and played.>>

That is fantastic. It doesn't strike me, however, as unreasonable to expect that some folks will have a different point of view.

-Peter

[The Burt]

First of all let me say that I am a fairly new poster and player/collector of Hero Clix. I was absolutely ecstatic that a hero minis game was developed. I was using home-grown rules of my own with action figures up until that point. Fun, but clunky and required a LOT more space. Like many of you out there, I, too am a long (and I mean LONG) time wargamer. Never much stuck with the RPG's but I am an admited GW disciple (much less since HeroClix IC hit the shelves).
As an aside, I am grateful to see the freedom you allow on these posts. I was actually banned from the GW site once for daring to criticize Gav Thorpe in a much much less savage way than many of the posters here have voiced their opinions. It is refreshing that you allow freedom of speech here and it should be commended (If your interested in my GW fracas PM me and I'll fill you in on all the sordid details. It ended well, but it is a GREAT story about the GW mentality).
Now then on to the good stuff. I liked the interview and thought it was informative especially for a newbie like me, however, even a newbie can see that Jon's comments on Firelord and taxiing were straight cop-outs. He didn't even TRY to tap dance around them. He may as well have shrugged and in his best David Spade said, "Don't know, Don't Care, buh bye"
It is obvious from the clamor that Firelord is a problem. I'm sorry, but there can't be that many "strategically impaired" people out there. It is a sad day when a Games Designer blames the people who play his game for the failures of said game (Very Games Workshopian of you--for shame). 'nuff said on FL.
Just from the Newbie's viewpoint, Taxiing and Medics should be at the very least banned from tournament play. Why? They almost FORCE a certain type of strategy. I'm sorry. WHO can pick up the Hulk or Juggernaut and then fly with them? Iron Man maybe? Thor? I think that this "tactic" is so overwhelmingly destabilizing to the game that it should be certainly banned in tournaments and I think from the rules altogether. As for Telekinesis, they should not be allowed to use it on friendlies. Only enemies. One final note, it is my opinion that medics are a unecessary part of this game. They are very much out of character. And certainly out of Comic Bookishness. Everybody knows that heroes are healed back at the Mansion/cave/hideout. Their inclusion forces players to play a certain way. You can try to argue this point, but how can you argue the points vs effectiveness logic? How? Taxiing heroes from the front line to the medic and back again while certainly non-heroic and absolutely not part of any Comic Book is the "tactic" du jour because, I'm sorry, it HAS TO BE. You, mr Games Designer, have made it so. Not to be rude, but do the math, sir. Look EVERY Game in the world from the most sophisticated wargames at the Pentagon to roushambeau are all based on an ALGORITHM. You figure out the Algorithm you figure out the game. Unfortuately, the data points to taxiing heroes to medics and back as the Algorithm of this game. Fix it. Take Taxiing and Medics out of the game and you will have fixed the ONLY thing wrong with this otherwise inspired game. As far as I can see this is the only really unbalancing aspect of it. Oh, and no more Elektra figures, please?

[Grendel]

I've never had much problem with taxi/medics, though I've seen them often enough. In a recent 400 point match up in an unofficial tournament, I saw it in action, and how it failed miserably against a relatively simple strategy - LE Supes and Darkseid.

[dolemite199]

Bakija wrote,

Of course I see your point--I just don't believe that such a point is a valid excuse for refusing to make a superior product.

I don't think it is an excuse. You cannot please everyone. Therefore, your product will always seem inferior to someone who has complaints about it regardless if it labled as a "superior" product. HC is a superior product compared to other comic book adaptation games. The probelm is the fact that some of the people who play HC believe it could be made better. This is a perfectly valid opinion. I have no issue with that. My point is that we, meaning players and collectors, should not be so judgemental and objective to this Product. HC is not defective, or a poorly made product. There are somethings we would liked changed or made to increase the superiority and playability of HC, but we are not the ones who make that decision. We can only voice our thoughts on this. Maybe Wizkids will listen and incorporate some of the consumers desires into future HC products. But as I said before, Marvel and DC get the final say so, not Wizkids, and not use. However, this is not the case with rules. Rules changes are a sperate issue from the HC product line and should definately be addressed.


That is fantastic. It doesn't strike me, however, as unreasonable to expect that some folks will have a different point of view. >>

I fully expect others to have a view point different than my own. An example is the electronic conversation you and I are in now.

P.S. I am enjoying this debate with you. Nice to chat with someone who is level headed

[bakija]

Zeb wrote:
>>HC is a superior product compared to other comic book adaptation games.>>

Certainly, although I can only think of RPG's off the top of my head--no, wait, there was, what was it? Overpower? I never even saw that game, so I can't say one way or the other.

>>The probelm is the fact that some of the people who play HC believe it could be made better. This is a perfectly valid opinion. I have no issue with that. My point is that we, meaning players and collectors, should not be so judgemental and objective to this Product.>>

Eh. I'm always pro-criticism. Criticism leads to discussion which leads to change. If we all were less judgemental, we still wouldn't know how those "air conditiner" spaces on the roofs worked :-)

>>HC is not defective, or a poorly made product.>>

I'd claim that Firelord is a large inherrent defect in the game, in that it seems unlikely that anyone planned on him being as powerful and game dominant as he is, but overall, I'd say you are correct.

>>There are somethings we would liked changed or made to increase the superiority and playability of HC, but we are not the ones who make that decision.>>

Of course we aren't the decision makers, but we are the consumers, and it is our responsibility to generate feedback, so as to provide the designers information with which to improve things. Letting them know what needs to be fixed (well, ya know, according to me :-) is key. Do I expect that my every whim will become law? Certainly not--I just figure it is in my best interest (and in the best interest of the game as a whole) to make my opinions known.

>>P.S. I am enjoying this debate with you. Nice to chat with someone who is level headed>>

Right on! If only everyone could be so sane :-)

Later on,
-Peter

[mulkabu]

Y'know, the really crazy things is that in spite of the #####/moan/whinge onslaught as a result of a really good interview ... this board has to rate as one of the most positive communities of gamers online, it's positively ... positive .. compared to some of the other general mailing lists for games I'm on!!

Brian

[JonL]

I just wanted to let you all know that I've been checking out what you've had to say throughout this post and I want to thank you all again.

One thing I want to "clear up"; I kept making characters with Support because the power exists. I can't just ignore it, we only have so many powers available and I need to be fair to all of them. Who knows, maybe I'll end up changing it. I'll give it some thought.

You've all given me a lot of good things to think about.

Thanks,

--Jon

[Paptimus]

Support can be an interesting power gamewise, but I'd rather see it on characters like the Beast than on generic medics...

[Veggiehater]

Originally posted by JonL
I just wanted to let you all know that I've been checking out what you've had to say throughout this post and I want to thank you all again.

One thing I want to "clear up"; I kept making characters with Support because the power exists. I can't just ignore it, we only have so many powers available and I need to be fair to all of them. Who knows, maybe I'll end up changing it. I'll give it some thought.

You've all given me a lot of good things to think about.

Thanks,

--Jon

Thank you to Jon!

Thanks for actually taking the time to sift through all the posts and all the suggestions and gripes we may have over the game. It's always nice to see that customer feedback is considered and appreciated. I think that it is safe to say that what we all want is a better Heroclix eperience for all the parties involved.

Thanks again,
VH

BTW I completely agree with Paptimus that support makes the most sense on characters that should have it, instead of on generics like the medics which are reduced to background plot devices (at best) in the comics.

Edit: Sorry about the misspell PaPtimus, chalk that one up (as well as the post below) to lack of sleep. :(

[Paptimus]

Yup, what he said! (though my name is PaPtimus)
Stop by again, Jon!

[Veggiehater]

Doh! Pressed the wrong button, please ignore

[Psylockeslover]

IMHO we have enough generic medics. Though i'd like to see more named characters with support like Strange, Jean Grey, and now Beast. I think it adds a different dimention to the game.


Now for my one rant: Can we PLEASE have a cheep X-men 'taxi' ala Angel?!

[stray_flux]

Originally posted by JonL
I just wanted to let you all know that I've been checking out what you've had to say throughout this post and I want to thank you all again.

Thank you Jon. It's always nice to hear from the game designers.

I just want to say that I really enjoy Heroclix. I have my complaints, as I'm sure most people do, but I'll play no matter what the 'official rules' are.

I believe that it would be virtually impossible to please everyone and after any change you'll still hear from few the people who are upset. Good luck with any change you do propose

Keep up the good work.
-Michael
ps. wish I had you're job :)

[stray_flux]

I hold the opinion that Fire Lord is probably too cheap and taxies and support are not really in the spirit of the game but we've heard it lots times on this board, on other boards and at local tournaments. I don't know why we have to keep discussing the same things over and over. Everyone is free to make whatever house rules they want. Winning is not everything. Play with your friends, play for fun, what ever. If you really have a problem discuss it with your local venue and try to get them to ban medics/ Firelord/ etc.

I like some of the suggestions like making healing 1-3 instead of 1-6 or making the medic take a click of damage.

I’m also under the impression that the taxiing was introduced to help ground pounders out. Why not ban ranged combat actions after being carried, but allow close combat attacks. (That would reduce FL’s range from 18 to 8 and still allow Hercules to get into the battle and beat on FL)

On the other hand any change to a major game mechanic will have drastic effects on overall game play and must be very carefully thought through.

But you can’t ignore the evidence. A balanced game would mean that every tactic would have an equal chance of winning. Every winning team, barring booster and draft tournaments, at our local shop has a medic on it. I also haven’t seen a team without taxies win a tournament. It doesn’t seem balanced to me if everyone has to use a certain powers to have a chance.

I don’t propose to know the solution and I don’t intend this rant to have an effect on anyone but my group has banned medics and FL and we’re happier for it. We’ve left taxies as they are because we can’t agree on how they should be played. I can’t imagine any one a WK is having any easier time. Maybe they’ll change the rules maybe they won’t. Until then you play you’re rules and we’ll play ours and all live happily ever after (far, far apart).

-Michael

[Henchman]

Not to be rude, but it does seem like every single discussion about HeroClix I've ever read, on this forum or any other, degenerates into people screaming at each other on the subject of whether Firelord is broken. :) Maybe we should just ban the topic.

As to medics: Very useful, but not broken, IMHO, because even the best of medics a) have no more than 3 clicks of Support, and b) can't heal themselves. If the medic gets hit once by most characters, the Support is gone.

As to taxis: Broken, I have to say. The game is designed around a single paradigm, "You can move or attack, but not both with the same character on the same turn." Taxis break this paradigm in a way that a power like Running Shot does not, by allowing a character to move some ten squares and still make a full-strength ranged or close-combat attack, then be moved back the next turn. With certain characters, like E. or V. Wasp, it doesn't even cost an action. This is clearly broken. However, as some have already pointed out, eliminating taxis entirely puts the game in the hands of the ranged characters, since close-combat pieces can't close in time.

My solution: When using Flight to carry a character, both the carrying character and the carried character get an action token. If this results in the carried character getting two action tokens, they take a point of damage as per a standard push. This means that taxi-ing can still be used to maneuver characters into position, and enhance the movement of close-combat characters, but doesn't let them abuse the "move and attack" rules.

Super-strength: Should gain a force-blast/TK style effect to let you throw other characters around. We'll have Colossus in the next set, but he can't fastball special...

Players: Should take some freaking prozac or something. :)

Henchman

[Veggiehater]

I actually like the idea someone proposed which forces a taxi to make a breakaway roll to remove its fare from base contact with an opponent.

I personally have no problems with how taxiing instigates combat, I think problems mostly initiated in how it can deter a melee so easily though.

Besides with a rule like this in effect, plasticity will get a nice "push," as it is currently one of those underappreciated powers.

Just my opinions,
VH

[Nickel97]

Originally posted by Veggiehater
I actually like the idea someone proposed which forces a taxi to make a breakaway roll to remove its fare from base contact with an opponent.

I personally have no problems with how taxiing instigates combat, I think problems mostly initiated in how it can deter a melee so easily though.

Besides with a rule like this in effect, plasticity will get a nice "push," as it is currently one of those underappreciated powers.

Just my opinions,
VH

yeah, those are my thoughts exactly. It's not the taxi-bash that's the problem it's being pulled out of combat to run like a baby to the medics that make taxi-ing problematic.

[Nickel97]

hmmm. it double posted. I tried to delete this one, but it wouldn't let me. sorry for that. Don't give me any warning points, it was accidental.

[Brigadier M]

Originally posted by stray_flux

I like some of the suggestions like making healing 1-3 instead of 1-6


That might be ok, but what I'd really like to see is a change to regenerate. Not necessarily the top end, but if you spend an action to regen, you ought to at least get one click out of it. So I would propose using the current d6-2, but if you get less than one click, it defaults to one ('course if you were pushing to regen, than means you could still end up with nothing, but at least you wouldn't LOSE a click).

M!

[sol]

Originally posted by JonL
I've never posted here and I'm not going to make a practice of it, but I felt like I needed to respond to some of comments that people have made.

First, I do check out some of the forums, both here and on WizKids' site. I appreciate your feedback and I think about a lot of your ideas and suggestions while working up character lists and dials.

Second, don't tell me what I'm thinking. Don't tell me what you think I'm saying. This interview was 100% what I thought. I was asked questions and I gave honest and complete answers. If you're not happy with them, don't speculate about what I really meant. There was no spin-doctoring involved.

Third, the reason I say Firelord should "only" be 10-15 points more is because I've heard of stores that allow you to play him only if you add 60 to his printed point cost.

Fourth, I didn't start designing the game until after Infinity Challenge was released, so don't ride me about this or that character from IC being "wrong". Those stats are how the game designer at the time interpreted the character. I've already said I'd like to make a lot of changes to many of those characters; power-up Captain America, Firelord would cost more, Thanos wouldn't fly (except when he has the Infinity Gauntlet), he'd teleport, Spider-Man would be much different, etc. etc. Think before you respond.

Fifth, the inclusion of certain characters in numerous sets is a process. I make my suggestions and there is feedback from Marvel and from inside WizKids (i.e. the Marketing department). It's important for us to provide you with a product you want, while also being able to appeal to a wider audience. You're our core. The people we love and rely on, but we have to have the "signature characters" so that the set appeals to people who haven't discovered the game yet. In addition, I may be the lead game designer on HeroClix, but my word is not law within the company when it comes to HeroClix. A lot of people have input, my input is given more weight, but it's still a cooperative process that invovles many people.

Sixth, I didn't write the rules to the game and I would think you'd like that fact that I'm taking my time and giving serious thought to whether I should change certain key rules or not. How much more would you hate it if I made a ruling and then had to change it, and change it again? I'd like get it right the first time.

Seventh, I don't think it's lame that you play to win. I think everyone enjoys the game for different reasons. I just think there are different ways to go about it than falling back on Firelord teams. Maybe he is the most effective, but how would you ever know if you don't play other combinations?

Eighth, we weren't going to do LE's for HeroClix, but everyone asked for them. We responded to requests from our fan base. Honestly, if I thought it would improve the game I'd be in favor of getting rid of them. Really, though, I don't think anyone wants that, so I'm not going to even suggest it.

Ninth, obviously if you hit any figure a couple of times it goes away. I don't think that shows a lack of knowledge of the game. What I'd hoped you'd take from me saying that is that Firelord's only defense is a high defense value. He's got no significant defense powers. Hammer him, don't let up, and he's gone.

Tenth, I probably wouldn't have included Support as a power. It's not comic-booky, but I have to deal with the fact that it exists. If your opponent has a medic, take it out. They're easy to hit, have very few clicks, and will seriously weaken his limited tactics.

Eleventh, this is in response to people who want certain characters in a set. I'd like to get some characters into the game, but I know it probably won't happen. Power Pack?! Give me a break! Yes, I love 'em, but the liklihood of them ever showing up is pretty small. They haven't had a book for well over a decade and there are only a few people who'd really like to see them. I have to take everything into account when I design a character list, not just what I and a few other fans want to see.

Finally, I want to thank you for some good comments. I really appreciate that you have some intelligent things to say. I'm also happy to hear that some of you liked the interview. To the others, I hope someday I can say something to make you happy.

Thanks,

Jon Leitheusser
HeroClix Game Designer

Hey Jon,
I appreciate your well thought-out responses to the complaints you hear from us players and judges about characters or game mechanics(I PERSONALLY complained about Mr. Fixit with no Outwit, but besides him I have thought your statistics are much more accurate, and he doesn't HAVE to have it to be 'right'). While I'm not into breaking vows either, I wanted to say that I think it's a good idea that you have decided to answer some of our questions and get involved in discussion, even if it is limited.

Thank You For Your Time,
SentineloflIberty
sol

[Giant man]

I find taxiing sometimes in the comics, like in the X-men novel-book thing i'm reading, Beast was being ganged up on what did rogue do? Pulled him out! Carrying into battle is harder to place but i'm sure i could find it in one of my comics.

As far as medics go i find the consept rediculas , but with Beast and Jean i don't, i don't read X-men comics much but i could see that

[Comte]

You know JonL, if you think something from the game should be changed, or you would like something to work diffrenly, then why don't you make a post to the board with your suggestions and let people play test them.

Granted you are going to get a slew of ARRRRGGGGGHHHH youZOR ruin our L33tez garmeZOR bluarrrggghh. However once you sift through thouse responces I think you might find something genuinely useful.

Or, you could do what blizzard entertainment dose. You could offer up game testing of new rules to certain people and they could report back to you the result of these rules changes. THis way you would have to sift through applications and not moron responces. Sure all your proposed rule changes would be leaked to the net within the hour, but at least the only people reporting to you would be the ones you have asked to. After all, we are the people who broke firelord, I'm sure we could bend your rules to perfection. Just a suggesiton.

[theZehrung]

JonL said, "Eleventh, this is in response to people who want certain characters in a set. I'd like to get some characters into the game, but I know it probably won't happen. Power Pack?! Give me a break! Yes, I love 'em, but the liklihood of them ever showing up is pretty small. They haven't had a book for well over a decade and there are only a few people who'd really like to see them. I have to take everything into account when I design a character list, not just what I and a few other fans want to see."

Hmm, there is certainly one thing that surprised me and many others - the inclusion of Tisiphone/Fury in the Cosmic Justice. What made you decide to pick that character? It sure caused some commotion among us...mostly positive. :)

[Doctor Strange]

Originally posted by Comte
You know JonL, if you think something from the game should be changed, or you would like something to work diffrenly, then why don't you make a post to the board with your suggestions and let people play test them.

Granted you are going to get a slew of ARRRRGGGGGHHHH youZOR ruin our L33tez garmeZOR bluarrrggghh. However once you sift through thouse responces I think you might find something genuinely useful.


Thats a great idea.