how to beat (U) Vision?

[kepha]

my friend plays with a 300pts team base around (U) Vision and (E) Capt America.
We had a few games together and i lost them all ! We're going to face each other again next week-end. Any idea to defeat them?

I thought i could build a team with (V)Mr Fantastic so i could use his plasticity to "capture" Vision, and his outwit to cancel Capt Am's leadership. Have you ever try this tactic?

My friend's team should looks like this:
(U) Vision
(E) Capt America
(E) Pyro
(R) Sabretooth + support figs.

Who do u think i should team Mr Fantastic with ? Should i first concentrate my efforts on Vision, or first try to defeat his teammates?

I'm very much a newbie, so sorry if my questions look stupid.

[thickvic]

plasticity won't work, he has phasing he can always break away, just blast him him hard a few times, he loses invulnerability after the first click, outwit phasing and he's toast, so make sure you have a hitter who can do 3 or more damage, and he's fairly easy to handle

[Doctor Strange]

Leadership may seem like a good thing to outwit, but most of us agree that it's one of the worst powers of the bunch. I suggest trying to use someone like She Hulk. Charge her in, pick up a Heavy object token on the way and smash vision for 6 clix of damage. Thor is also a good answer to vision.

[kepha]

question to Dr Strange:

You say that leadership is one of the worst powers in the game. Can you explain that ? As leadership can give you an extra-action, i think it's really useful, even if you don't use it every turn.

[Lonehawk]

Leadership is
a) expensive
b) unreliable

If you plan your strategy around leadership then you will almost always have problems. You want to set up your turns to get the maximum advantage from the number of actions you have. If your plans depend on making a Leadership and you fail then you miss part of your combo, be it a move, an attack or even some healing. On the other hand if you don't plan for it and it comes up then, great, you get an extra action but more often or not this not that useful as you have already decided on what your key moves will be for this turn. I have seen cases where a making a roll has actually hindered a player, as he has felt the need to do something even if it wasn't in his best interest to do so - the best example of this is moving figures that should have stayed put!

The one exception to this can be SHIELD agents - the extra click of damage can be very useful although even this isn't always worth the action token.

[Wolverine_lor]

Its not really that expensive its no more expensive than anything else you can get it for around 30-40 pts you can get it from a doombot with many other useful abilities which cost 38pts you can also get it from U=Cap cost 35pts which has a lot of other useful abilities i dont think its thats bad, i know its not a necessity to have it, but its useful. Its awsome in 200 pts games you almost have to have it, but you might disagree with me.

[Ironman1492]

outwitt and wham, bam, thankyou mam'. Or just take out his other support figs/teamates, and focus on vision loosely until the end of the match and give him all you got.

[Lonehawk]

I'm still not convinced by Leadership.

On the subject of the original post I notice your opponents team is not exactly the most mobile, I agree with Doctor Strange that E She-Hulk could certainly rain on Visions parade but I suggest that you support her with some Outwit to negate the phasing and some cheap barriers (ie Avalanche) to keep CA, Pyro and Sabretooth at bay while you deal with the Android. Oh, and a couple taxis of your own. You should come in at 300 points if you choose carefully.

[Snork]

Originally posted by kepha


I'm very much a newbie, so sorry if my questions look stupid.

Don't appologize for asking questions. This is a place for discussion. If you have a question, ask. :)


I don't know who you have access to. But a team that I used that worked really well;

Super Skrull 127
V Human torch 73
E Black Panther 36
E Black Cat 32
V AIM Medic 17
Rachel Van Helsing 14
Total 299 points

Probability Control, Outwit, running shot, BCF. Used properly, this can be great.
If you can use running shot to blast somebody, while dropping a BCF in base to base, then attacking, using PC to keep the numbers up, you'll be in good shape.

No strategy works all the time. It all depends how you set it up.

[kepha]

ok, so what about that :

(V) Mr Fantastic, 113
(V) Doc Octopus, 66
(R) Human Torch, 40
(R) Sabretooth, 38
(V) Hydra-medic, 16
(E) Avalanche, 26

that gives 299 pts with outwit, perplex, running shot, bcf and barrier.

[phonixinmi]

The vet doc oc, exp avalanche, and vet hydra medic are the only 3 pieces of the 6 that would be good in a 300 point team.

Although the other 3 may have thier uses, you're setting yourself up to get clobbered (no pun intended) because they're so overcosted for what they're capable of doing.

Try out a Rookie Ultron in place of Mr.Fantastic; a Vet Bullseye in place of Human Torch; and a Unique Elektra in place of Sabretooth.

They're much more capable of damaging your opponent's figures (Especially Vision) because of their higher attack values.

[Invis-slayer]

For Vision you need 1 thing...and that is a high AV Range character that can do 4 or more damage[or get that invulnerability outwitted..either way works]. I might however point out that he is just gonna heal the vision i would be, so you are probably going to have to take out his support pretty quick. So what you want is either TK[jean grey or mandriod] and say vet bullseye for the medic. An E or V DR Strange, or a R-Ultron[with a black panther] and thier own vulture[taxi] should be able to hit the vision pretty quick. Also i think you would beniifit alot from a R-Quicksilver[free move, you can tie up that pyro or tooth really fast with it, and it has 18 def vs range until it does get in close[and no one is gonna commit thier sabretooth to killing a quicksilver early game]. Also a prob control in the form of a R scarlet witch might benefit you, especially if you pack the R-Boomerang that i think you should pack[the sabretooth has low def, and the Vision will once you deal 3 clicks to it].

So to recap[and i made a near perfect point team there by fluke!]

R-jean grey
V-Bullseye
R-Ultron
R-Black Panther
R-Quicksilver
R-Scarlet Witch
R-Boomerang
R-Vulture

I believe that that adds up to 297[but if it doesn't i am positive it adds up to 299], It is a little big for 300 points tho, so you are going to have to try and draw the game out a bit after the first couple turns[where you get to free move like crazy!] IMHO this should wipe up your buddies army..and many more armies...:)

[Wolverine_lor]

Well he has one prob with his team and that is no way to hurt a click with Inv. himself all you need is something like a V=She Hulk,Black Panther to out wit b/c/f, Good range guy and he is owned try this
V=Shehulk 120pts
R=Black Panther 27pts
V=Bullseye 43pts
V=Logan 60pts
V=Doombot 38pts
R=Hydra Medic thats 300 pts it will own his team

[RCNavratil]

Aren't all of you guys forgetting something? A little thing called psychic blast? Why not try out a White Queen on a team. The exp on hits for two damage, and the has an attack value ot ten with super senses as well... Just a thought.

[ontapmedia]

Hey I'm getting into this kinda late but I'm just curious do you guys really think Mr. Fantastic is worth spending 117 pts. on?

I mean you can have Kingpin for under 50 points if this is just about leadership and U wasp has it for 44 with free movement and taxi-ing. I mean I'd rather have a veteran Sabretooth. I think Rookie doesn't even get free movement. I could be wrong. cost is 69 points and you get a heck more then you do on the rookie.

I dont know 117 points just seems awfully steep in a 300 point team so I'd probably think the same about Thor. But at least Thor provide some very interesting offense. - T.

[remywokeup]

Mr. Fantastic does not fit into any of these solutions to your problem. Mr. Fantastics only good quality is his combo of Plasticity and Invulnerability, and then his Outwit. The first good thing is worthless against Vision's Phasing, and a 117 point figure is too expensive to wait 4 clicks before he is useful. Drop the Mr. Fantastic idea. Trust me.

For Outwit, look to Exp. Black Panther. He starts with it, plus he Stealth out of Visions range attacks. If anyone comes close, you dice them up nice and clean-like.

If they're playing medics it would be a ogod idea to take them out quick. Vision will never have a problem getting to them.

If you Outwit his defensive abilities and use a taxi to get someone close, he shouldn't be much trouble. Think about Vet. Whirlwind. His Flurry with 3 damage makes him a good eliminator piece, plus his high movement can help you get to you opponents medics more easily.

As I said, there are many ways to beat Vision, the best is not to spend to much on each of your figures. Give yourself more attacks against him, and you'll kill him faster. Simple math. Vision's biggest weakness is his point cost. Your opponent has to spend 112 points to get 2 actions every 3 turns, and that's pushing him. Your can buy a lot more actions with 117 points than Mr. fantastic will give you.

Hope this all helps, good luck. Cream your friend for all of us here at HCRealms. We'll be cheering for ya!

[kepha]

thanks guys for the "forget about Mr Fantastic" tip, for the idea of black panther, and for the others suggestions.

Here's the team i used :

(E) Firelord (just got it)
(E) Dr Strange
(V) AIM Med
(V) black panther
(R) Scarlet Witch
(R) Hercule

We had two games, my (your??) team won them two. You were right, Vision is no big deal. Scarlet Witch did a great job, driving my friend's white queen (and her supersense) mad.