I just don't get it... [Archive]

RCNavratil

02/18/2003, 12:58

Hey all. I'm not trying to sound all preachy, nor am I trying to scold anyone. But it saddens me to see all of the complaining that goes on in these forums. I know, many of you are now thinking that if it bothers me so much why don't I just stop coming here. Well, the fact of the matter is that I enjoy reading what everyone has to say, except for the complaints. Apparently nothing Wizkids can come out with is good enough, because for the most part all I hear are complaints. If you don't like the game, don't play it. If you don't like a character, don't use it. If you think a character is "cheese", find a way to beat it... I mean, come on, it's just a game. I think people get a little too wrapped up in winning, instead of just having fun... My intention in this thread is not to insult anyone, or to point fingers, but to help people realize that maybe they are being a little overy critical of something that is meant to be FUN, and not appreciating it as much as they could.

*steps down off of his soapbox*

What does everyone else think?

*cringes as he waits for the barrage of numerous complaints and insults*

Logan185

02/18/2003, 13:10

*dusts off soap box and steps up*

I agree with you. The game isn't perfect. Powers aren't perfect, but their simple enough. I have found some killer combos that can be employed using a slim number of pieces. I have been cheesed and have found ways to beat it. Any game is like that. If anyone has ever played Magic: The Gathering knows that combos are what make the game great and a challenge to play. Ditto with Heroclix. To be honest, I enjoy watching the combo happen. I don't like it when I'm the target, but I can appreciate a clever player. All I do is try to recover (my defeat and pride) and vow TO CRUSH HIM LIKE THE LITTLE WUSS HE IS NEXT TIME!!!!!!

But overall I think the game is fun.

*steps off soap box*

JerryReedStyle

02/18/2003, 13:12

In short, no.

I've mentioned on numerous occasions that there's NO pleasing a large portion of the members of this forum.

For instance...Iron Man FINALLY comes out and is an obvious @$$ kicker....what's one of the first things I read? "His face looks goofy!"

Ugh.

DCFan#1

02/18/2003, 13:15

Here's the deal. You are only hearing the vocal minority, that 1% of all Heroclix players that thinks their ideas should be the actual rules. It's been happening since this game came out. You can't get away from it, but you can ignore it.

Then when Mr. Firelord Complainer Guy shows up with this Firelord/Bullseye/Wasp team, you can stomp a mudhole in him. Eventually, they will just leave, finding another game to complain about. I take comfort in the fact that I'll be here long after the complainers are gone.

-Rich

Heroclixrules

02/18/2003, 13:34

I agree with all that has been said here. ESPECIALLY about Iron Man. First, people complain there is NO Iron Man, then when they get him they complain like they're in redneck voices "Force field? What in tarnation is that??". Thankfully those of us a bit higher up on the food chain can say live and let live to most peoples complaining (although we all deep down want to rip their heads off and sacrifice them to the wizkids gods. Yep, wizkids has their own gods now. Its the newest thing! =P). I say look at them like little kids asking an uncle to play with them. If the uncle ignores them long enough, the kids will run off and bother someone else. Lets be that neglectful uncle!

linus23

02/18/2003, 13:43

is it just me, or is this thread very, very ironic?

JerryReedStyle

02/18/2003, 13:49

Originally posted by Heroclixrules
I agree with all that has been said here. ESPECIALLY about Iron Man. First, people complain there is NO Iron Man, then when they get him they complain like they're in redneck voices "Force field? What in tarnation is that??". Thankfully those of us a bit higher up on the food chain can say live and let live to most peoples complaining (although we all deep down want to rip their heads off and sacrifice them to the wizkids gods. Yep, wizkids has their own gods now. Its the newest thing! =P). I say look at them like little kids asking an uncle to play with them. If the uncle ignores them long enough, the kids will run off and bother someone else. Lets be that neglectful uncle!

I'm with you....except that its a thick Brooklyn accent...<chuckle>:D

Jack Squat

02/18/2003, 13:50

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Here's the deal. You are only hearing the vocal minority, that 1% of all Heroclix players that thinks their ideas should be the actual rules.

So if someone posts here and says they think Firelord is undercosted, taxiing is cheesy and should be outlawed, and "competitive" teams aren't fun to play against, then they would presumably fall into the "vocal 1%" category. If so, they're in good company, since that's how the current HeroClix game designer feels, too.

UltraMANOS

02/18/2003, 13:56

It is Ironic indeed, though as ironic as it may seem agree with all of it, I just hope that wiskids doesn't listen to every complain, if they do god help us, and god help those who contributed in ruining this game, because this is the only thing that keeps my anger in check! as horrible as it sounds this game keeps me in check and if I can't play it, God mercy on us all!

trutildeth

02/18/2003, 14:04

I'd just like to complain about threads where people complain about people complaining.

And while we're at it, everyone should agree on everything. There'll be no more opposition, dissent, war, hunger or poverty. Unless we all agreed on it, that is.

From now on, whenever I go to play Heroclix, my opponent and I will look at one another and agree that we are both winners; this way, the game (and all that nasty conflict that goes with it) becomes unnecessary.

Then we'll agreeably skip hand and hand through the fields of lollipops and daisies.

RCNavratil

02/18/2003, 14:14

*laughs*

My intention was not to complain, but to inquire if anyone else was sick of hearing the same whiners all the time. I agree that there will always be a level of competition in the game, thats what the game is about. And I will also agree that there can only be one winner, but I play the game to play the game, not to win every time. I was just wondering if anyone else felt the same way. So I apologize if I came off as sounding hypocritical and offended anyone... lol

bakija

02/18/2003, 14:46

Linus23 wrote:
>>is it just me, or is this thread very, very ironic?>>

Like you wouldn't believe. Just like the other one just like this that only just died off, like, a week ago.

Oh, the perils of history or the lack thereof.

-Peter

DCFan#1

02/18/2003, 15:10

Jack Squat wrote:
If so, they're in good company, since that's how the current HeroClix game designer feels, too.

Ah, Mr. Squat...I knew someone would jump on this as gospel now that Jon had said in a casual email he didn't like taxi's or the teams it generates. Try re-reading the comments he made about Firelord. Hopefully that's more than enough to end all of that nonsense.

Preach all you want about what he said, that isn't going to change things. It only proves he read these posts and listen to what we say in general. I stand by my comments, there is a very small (1%) group who thinks they know it all and think they have the voice to change it all. All the complaining gets nothing done, and ultimately does nothing but take up this sites bandwidth.

-Rich

Thorgrin

02/18/2003, 15:15

I don't mind the complaining.. As long as there are some good points or possible solutions.

Complaining that firelord is just so unbeatable gets old.

Complaining that some rules don't make sense and some possible changes that could be made is worth reading as it brings some value and usually some discussion.

Jack Squat

02/18/2003, 15:38

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Preach all you want about what he said, that isn't going to change things.

Not preaching. I'm content to make up house rules to deal with the parts of the game that I don't like. And the main thing I'd like to see changed is the common attitude around here that players who find any fault with any aspect of the game are either: A) inferior strategists; B) whiners; C) fanboys; D) disloyal to the game; E) an idiot; or F) all of the above. Pardon me for protesting my inclusion in any of those categories. And while there's no "gospel" involved, I do take consolation in the knowledge that Leithusser is on the record in favor of changing some things, too.

Some of you guys seem to have a major emotional investment in keeping the rules exactly as they are, and you get all fired up when somebody posts a complaint. But that's not going to matter one bit if Leithusser decides to change the rules. Sounds like he knows it'll freak all of you out, but he just might do it anyway.

RCNavratil

02/18/2003, 15:50

I don't think you understand what I mean Jack. My point is that the game is supposed to be fun, but when you get hung up on rules or the unfairness of a certain character, and feel that it needs to be changed, then at least for me, it takes the fun out of the game. If Jon wants to change the rules, then great, it'll add another chance to try new strategy. But people shouldn't complain that the game doesn't live up to their expectations because of a few things they dont agree with. If they don't like it, don't play the game you know?

Jadehorde

02/18/2003, 16:02

Originally posted by Jack Squat

Not preaching. I'm content to make up house rules to deal with the parts of the game that I don't like. And the main thing I'd like to see changed is the common attitude around here that players who find any fault with any aspect of the game are either: A) inferior strategists; B) whiners; C) fanboys; D) disloyal to the game; E) an idiot; or F) all of the above. Pardon me for protesting my inclusion in any of those categories. And while there's no "gospel" involved, I do take consolation in the knowledge that Leithusser is on the record in favor of changing some things, too.

Some of you guys seem to have a major emotional investment in keeping the rules exactly as they are, and you get all fired up when somebody posts a complaint. But that's not going to matter one bit if Leithusser decides to change the rules. Sounds like he knows it'll freak all of you out, but he just might do it anyway.

The thing is, often those complaints are not very informative or useful. They are just complaints with no alternative brought forth. And the current wave is just kinda weak, because many concern characters and rulings made before Jon's time. And most of the complaining in the past wasn't much past whining.

Why so and so character is/isn't included in the set?

Seems that the powers complaints will be addressed slowly. Hopefully after a few sets all the major flawed characters have been taken care of.

The sculpting I'll consider valid, just so whoever was in charge isn't for later sculpts.

Major rules changes should be looked at carefully, so I'm in no rush to see change...let all the iterations be worked out before taking taxi or some other rule out of the game.

bakija

02/18/2003, 16:09

RCNavratil wrote:
>>But people shouldn't complain that the game doesn't live up to their expectations because of a few things they dont agree with. If they don't like it, don't play the game you know?>>

See, but without feedback (which is what complaint is), the designers don't know what to fix, as they don't necessarily know it is broken.

Heck, the 18+ page FAQ, which is completely necessary for game play, is pretty much the direct result of people complaining.

People complaining gets things fixed.

-Peter

Jack Squat

02/18/2003, 16:11

RCNavratil--

Well, it was really DCFan I was replying to. You're clearly trying not to offend anybody and I haven't taken offense at your posts here. But instead of saying, "If you don't like it, don't play the game," I say, "If you don't like it, make a house rule."

But I also say, "Post your complaints here for all to see!"

the itsy bit

02/18/2003, 16:33

If you don't complain about something how can anybody else know there's something wrong/needing to be fixed ?

We mostly play fun games and most of us pick a team( and hero's/villains), but some figs are just plain made wrong and I would like these figs to be remade (rules changed to make them as good as they should be).

Yes, everybody here is a fan (that's why we're playing the game) so I might just be that nothing can please us:
for example
Spiderman having no Spider Senses=> we all complained and now the game designer has made a new Spidey. GREAT !

Would we have gotten a better Spidey If we didn't complain about it ?
maybe, but we felt there was something amiss.
Our whining made WK aware that we cared and did something aboot it !!

Jon has done a great job with CT !

Tippman

02/18/2003, 16:35

Choosing to complain or praise rules, characters, or the game in general is what makes this forum great. If I read something that is far fetched or don't agree with I don't get mad. It's somebody's opinion. If anything it might make me think about that circumstance or example and possible learn from it. Its up to the person reading these threads to shrug them off or agree with.

Hope somebody agrees with me.

RCNavratil

02/18/2003, 16:53

Yeah, I guess you guys are right... I just wish it wasn't so prevelant... I mean, I was so hyped by the new figs being previewed... I'd love to have the new elektra. But when I log on and see all these people being negative about it, it kinda ruins it for me you know? Maybe they should start a forum just for complaints? Hmmm....

DCFan#1

02/18/2003, 17:06

Jack Squat wrote:
...the main thing I'd like to see changed is the common attitude around here that players who find any fault with any aspect of the game are either: A) inferior strategists; B) whiners; C) fanboys; D) disloyal to the game; E) an idiot; or F) all of the above.

Everyone here knows that the reasons you posted take care of about 95% of all the complaining on this board. For the record, I've never called anyone an idiot. I have, however, questioned someones skills or committment to the game because of the problems they are having with a figure/rule/team.

Peter and I have talked about this for pages. I would argue that feedback does not equal complaint. Feedback is constructive, complaining is destructive.

-Rich

Jack Squat

02/18/2003, 22:45

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Everyone here knows that the reasons you posted take care of about 95% of all the complaining on this board.

DCFan--

95% might be a bit too high, I think. But thanks for at least acknowledging that 5% of the complaints are possibly legitimate. I'd like to suggest that the next time you see a complaint post, you try giving the person the benefit of the doubt that maybe they fall into the "5% legit" category whether you agree with them or not. A week or two ago, Brazil started a thread where he argued that (among other things) it wasn't fair for one player in a tourney to decide whether to use the adventure pack 3D objects or not. A bunch of "anti-complainers" descended on him like a pack of wolves, and the whole thread was reduced to childish name-calling. (You can look it up!) But lo and behold, the new FAQ states that 3D objects can only be used in a tourney if both players agree. The fact is, Brazil was right about that. A minor point, sure, but why not tweak it and get it right?

Maybe more of the complaints have a legitimate basis than you'd like to admit.

the itsy bit

02/19/2003, 06:16

Originally posted by RCNavratil
I mean, I was so hyped by the new figs being previewed... I'd love to have the new elektra. But when I log on and see all these people being negative about it, it kinda ruins it for me you know?

make your own decisions !
people are bashing Elektra, why ? because she isn't the favourite fig of most of the players (but the designer seems to like her).
Heck, I LOVE Spiderman but do we really need another version every set ??
when she comes out play her ! you decide whether you like her or not !

most of us are only saying give the other (not yet made) uniques/figs a chance !
If someone starts playing after Xplosion he already will have enough choices to get A wolverine,Spidey,Hulk through trading/buying!

Doctor Strange

02/19/2003, 06:48

I think there are generally 3 types of complainers..

Some are "flaw" finders. These people are the most common I think. They generally love the game but have one or two minor issues that bug them but ultimatly don't effect the game. People who are urked that Jean Grey cant fly;), Daredevil doesnt have leap/climb fall into this category.

Others are "cause" oriented. They associate themselves with changing one large aspect of the game. These are often the most ...persistant of the bunch and will debate thier topic till thier fingers are numb. This can also often lead to some interesting discussion as DCFan#1 has already pointed out.

Then there are devils advocates. Joy of Joys! People who enjoy complaining about anything and everything. It does not matter what, they will find a flaw. These also happen to be the loudest of complainers. Generally, people happy with the game are not going to run around making ":D Im so happy about heroclix!!!:D" posts every minute. lol

And yes, this is ironic :D

Still tho, even tho this post is kindof complaining, it's nice to see some vocal opposition to the ...regular complaining.

DCFan#1

02/19/2003, 08:40

Doctor Strange wrote:
This can also often lead to some interesting discussion as DCFan#1 has already pointed out.

Yes Doctor Strange, thank you! Most people have this point of view, that people can argue and debate without getting nasty or pointing figures.

And yes Jack, you're right. Brazil did start a thread a few weeks back, but the point wasn't just 3D objects. It was a number of "rule hangups" where he proceed to tell everyone why rules don't work because he can't defend against the teams they produce. Perplex and outwit? Come on, you shouldn't be playing if you feel these powers somehow tip the scales in you oppenents favor.

So yes, 5% are legit. If you are ever in that 5%, please let me know, because you've always fallen into the 95% catagory.

-Rich