Sinking to F-Lord's Level

[shin-goji]

There's a local monkey at our venue who spends mad cash and trades, trades, trades to get as many figures as he can, but only plays with about six of them. I've seen a Sentinel and a Sinestro Construct in his carrier. They poke their heads up and sigh with much loneliness as they see the six figures duck and weave, yo-yo back and forth bewteen the front line and the medic line. Spidersense and Mon-El will back me up on this.

With a case full of clixs, this virus only plays two to three firelords, one to two barrier throwers, a unique elektra from time to time, and a decent helping of medics. Don't try to play a team battle with him, because if you are on his side he won't support you. He'll run at the first chance he gets if threatened if you get up to his turtle station.

I've gained infamous notoriety among our HC'ers by taking on him and his brother and winning hands down. I had 400 points and they had 200 each. They had 5 firelords on the field at once. It was brutal.

But I'm getting tired of trying to come up with non-cheesy teams in order to try and teach him a lesson, or have fun [which it's pretty hard to do]. I've only beat him once or twice, and each other time I whittle him down but not enough to win. I have finally come to a conclusion that when this virus wants to play, all sportsmanship and fun goes right out the window. You can come up with a fun theme team, but it will fall pretty quick.

So am I a bad person to come up with one team to use every time I face him? It's better than telling him "No I don't want to play you because your team is a crutch and unoriginal and not at all fun to go against." Especially since I'm a judge. The guy doesn't get out much, obviously, and is partially deaf. He's not a bad person at all! He's just a bad player.

So my team idea is R and V Firelord, E and V Bullseye, V Doombot and a Wasp. I figure I'll have a #### good chance of wiping the board with him using his own strategy against him. I could easily field 3 to 4 Firelords at once. Personally, even I like a good cheese game. it's like using cheat codes on video games after you've beat it. My favorite is Shin-Akuma with a permanent level 3 bar. It's pretty cathartic.

Anyway, it's a plan. We've all tried giving him clues but he's pretty clue-less. I think he just enjoys playing them, and like I said we all like him as a person, just hate him as a player.

[Rapscallion J]

That is one talented monkey if he can win at Heroclix. Firelord team or no Firelord team. I'd be afraid of a monkey who could wield strategic know how at any capacity.

on a serious note, you really have to be a #### with jokers like that. I used to play Warhammer 40k at a gameshop that has since closed down... but back in the day there was one player who turned out frequently and made everyone's life miserable with a Space Wolves army that exploited a game rule that allowed him to use one unit extremely powerful unit type (now I can't remember... the guys in the big power armor) in big numbers. He was a miserable opponent and thanks to the tournament rule system of match-ups for gaming... You had to play this guy at some point. He was a horrible opponent. Constantly questioning rules, smug attitude. It was terrible.

Nobody ever said anything, though. It was no secret among us that no one liked to play him let alone be in the same room as him. It came down to a point where I was matched up with my Space Wolves army against his. I was smashed to pieces in a record length (for shortest battle evar!!1) battle. He pointed out what I did wrong and even stooped so low as to pick on the paint jobs of some of my pieces and told me that I'd have to paint the entire army before he took me on again.

So I snapped.

In a very loud voice, I told the guy that no one liked to play him, that the only reason he won any games was that he was a cheesy, inconsiderate player who exploited a hole in the rules that everyone knew about, but in the interest of sportsmanship and fun, never bothered with it. I told him that in a lot of ways, he was a filthy cheater and to whipe that ####ing grin off his face.

Granted, I was loud and had to be calmed down by some of the other players there, but I got my point across. In very loud terms, I made it known that no one liked to play him and that the only reason he was even playing anyone was because the guy who organized the league MADE us play him. Rather than change his team, he dropped out altogether and never played again. I can't say I felt sorry about it.

[trutildeth]

Players like that can be annoying, but so can friends who try to "give clues".

Walk like a man, talk like a man. Tell the guy what you think (you can actually do this without being insulting) and have your friends back you up on this opinion later if need be (he won't react well if he thinks everyone is ganging up on him).

Just explain to him that it's not fun for you to play this way, and if a game's not fun, it's not worth playing. If he continues to play this way, your only alternative is to forfeit all matches against him. Sure, he'll win the LE's, but you'll get the point across and play for fun with your friends.

[MeatLoafX]

Just talk to him. In general, the vast majority of the time it's better to be honest and just talk to him like an adult. I'm sure other players have a similar view.

If he's one of the rare breed that only cares about himself, talk to your venue. We have several house rules here - no firelord could easily be one. (Luckily, no one plays him).

[A_Higher_Level]

5 Firelords, huh?

If you mix your Marvel/DC characters, get yourself an e Batman or v Nightwing. They can both incapacitate or target 2 Firelords without fear of being hit. Batman's range is lower though. (92 or 72pts)

Mind Control is vital in a situation like this. He'll cry if you mind control one Firelord to fry the other. r Gorilla Grodd is the cheapest with a 10 attack for 50pts. v or u Prof X is the strongest with an 11. (approx 50-100pts)

Nightcrawler to kill the medics so they can't heal. (83pts)

...and the remaining points for your support. At least one to TK, 2 supporters (or Jean Grey), and one with the Barrier ability to block his attack.

[Spidersense]

I faced the guy in the first round of last weeks tourney. It was my first exposure to the fiery cheese, though I had read reams of posts about him.

i am sure I would get burnt out (!) playing against the same team every time, so I probably have a couple games against him still in me.

I am usually pretty straightforward in my feelings about stuff, so if he asked me for a game, I would probably say, ok, but no Firelord, simple as that. If he asked why not, I would probably just say I was tired of playing against that piece. In return, he could pick a piece he did not want me to play. If he still balked, he could find someone else to play.

It's a touchy subject, because you dont want to alienate someone, but when they play the SAME TEAM over and over and over, there is a natural limit you hit. Every time I have been in the store I can bet I will see at least 2 Firelords and a Pyro or two on his side of the board.

As shin-goji said, he is a nice guy, but I really really really dont want to play him anytime soon.

Its too bad that in an open Marvel Tourney format, if you really want a chance at winning, you may have to devise your team to counter a Firelord team instead of just creating a team that you enjoy playing.

[shin-goji]

The most direct that I have been with him is telling him he could play two to three F-Lords in a tourney, but he would not get much respect from the other players. He's not snide at all, which is one of his saving graces. I feel that as a judge I'd be out of line telling him anything more direct. Despite this I have never made any ruling against him that was personally motivated. There is a new house rule that specifies no named duplicates, and I dropped the no V Firelord rule.

[kikerus27]

I have faced some Firelord-based armies and finally developed this strategy: I use E Ultron, V Puppet Master, E Vulture, R Dr. Strange and LE´s Hydra Medic and Shield Agent Gabriel Jones. With this army, I can use superior range plus Dr. Strange´s Enhancement (he has it at second and third click) and attack my opponent´s Firelords with double Energy Explosion, if they are adjacent to any Medic or Wasp; I can also use V Puppet Master to MC one Firelord and make he attack the other one. Another possibility is kill one Medic (not very hard; you can MC a Firelord to do the job for you or make a straight attack with Ultron enhanced by Strange) and go back for safety, keeping Ultron adjacent to Gabriel, Strange and Puppet Master (he is a Minon of Doom, so he can duplicate Shiel ability). If a Firelord gets close, he will suffer 3+1+1+1 = 6 clicks of damage; If someone is taxiing him and you hit both, they will take 8 clicks of damage each.
Hope this helps. My opponents had to change their teams to beat me.

Junior.

[Xian]

I realize that the initial question was about using Firelord to counter his Firelord...I think that the more useful way to go about beating him is to do so in a way that forces him to change his team if he wants to win.

Obviously, the problem here is that if there was a specific anti-Firelord strategy that was totally repeatable, we would probably all know about it already.

Since you're going with no named dupes, that should cut down on one or two problems, but he'll probably just start fielding more Pyro and Bullseye, hmm?

The obvious answer to Firelord is Stealth with a high AV, easier said than done.

U Elektra comes to mind, though, as does EV Logan, EV Wolverine, E Sabretooth, U Wolverine (in black, with the sword), and Nightwing. Any Minion of Doom paired with a Batman Ally would be nice...Spiral is probably the best bet.

TK might work better for getting these guys into combat, to keep the "taxi" out of FL's range. Maybe 2 TKers.

Someone with Plasticity would be nice, but isn't completely necessary. E Sandman, perhaps, to combine with MoD units? or V, to go wildcard? V Swamp Thing is funny, but probably asking for trouble.

Oh, and a little Outwit, obviously. E Black Panther seems like the answer. Maybe some Probability Control too.

Anyway, the final message is, "don't join 'em...beat 'em."

:)


Xian

[Thorgrin]

As a judge, you could force the issue. Make the next tournament a no dupes tournament and make it a 500 point game. He'll still have a firelord, but it'll only be one and it'll force him to start using other figures. Or make it a 500 point game with no one under 50 or 75 points. That eliminates all the generic medics and most of the cheaper taxis out there.

Just some thoughts. Now if it's friendly play and he was doing that (i.e. non-tournament) I'd just politely say that I play with some common house rules such as no dupes, etc. and see what he does or if he wanted to play.

[warden]

Originally posted by shin-goji
He's just a bad player. ... We've all tried giving him clues but he's pretty clue-less. I think he just enjoys playing them ...

He's not a bad player, he's a good player - he keeps winning, right? You're making the same mistake as Jon L. - blaming the player not the game.

The thing to do, as some have already indicated, is to change the game because changing the game is easier than changing the players. If you want to see people using theme teams then make this a rule for the next event. Our next event here requires teams to be proper teams like the X-Men or Avengers with only one non-aligned ringer of 50 points or less (so Firelord need not apply). I played a test team of Sinister Syndicate last night and had a ball.

You might find that this player will also appreciate the opportunity to use some other figures from his extensive collection. Just don't expect him to turn his brain off - you can expect that he'll try to make a strong theme team too. If he figures that format out fast then keep mixing it up. There's no reason that you need ever have the same format two weeks running. How would it be if a comic kept publishing the same story each month?

Andrew

[Joe Kerr]

A 500 point tournament game? That's going to take awhile.

[Silver Viper]

You could use the Black Panther Trick on him. Get a few Black Panthers and outwit his RCE every turn. Black Panther is very cheap(his V version is 42 i think). That leaves you a lot of points to get in some big guns in there to take out firelord. It's sad that it comes down to making your team an "Anti Firelord Team", but if thats whats needed to beat him, then do it. Or how about you just don't play with him, until he brings out a different team.

[hudson20]

Originally posted by kikerus27
I have faced some Firelord-based armies and finally developed this strategy: I use E Ultron, V Puppet Master, E Vulture, R Dr. Strange and LE´s Hydra Medic and Shield Agent Gabriel Jones. With this army, I can use superior range plus Dr. Strange´s Enhancement (he has it at second and third click) and attack my opponent´s Firelords with double Energy Explosion, if they are adjacent to any Medic or Wasp; I can also use V Puppet Master to MC one Firelord and make he attack the other one. Another possibility is kill one Medic (not very hard; you can MC a Firelord to do the job for you or make a straight attack with Ultron enhanced by Strange) and go back for safety, keeping Ultron adjacent to Gabriel, Strange and Puppet Master (he is a Minon of Doom, so he can duplicate Shiel ability). If a Firelord gets close, he will suffer 3+1+1+1 = 6 clicks of damage; If someone is taxiing him and you hit both, they will take 8 clicks of damage each.
Hope this helps. My opponents had to change their teams to beat me.

Junior.

I'm always looking for anti firelord strategys and the best I've found so far is using a lot of batman ally units. Unfortunately mr lord can still fly around and punch batman in the face for 3 points of damage each time. So that one doesn't work so well.

I checked out you team and found a couple of problems. The first of course being that it comes out to be 303 points. 97 points is an awful lot to give up a 400 point game.

Second is the fact that if your main hitter (ultron) takes a hit before the firelord does you have no explosion power. The fact that you have a limited range taxi for ultron (vultures 8 range is less than another firelords 12) means that most of the time firelord will get the first hit in. Also, a vet firelord will only miss ultrons 18 defense 17% of the time. (Not very good odds.) Ultron has a 28% chance of missing a firelord after taking 3 clicks from that firelord. (5 clicks - 2 for invulnerability).

Third, your backup hitter besides ultron is rookie stephen strange. Stephen can only hit a firelord 17% of the time when he's on his best click And you mentioned that you were gonna push him once. (droping him to only an 8% chance to hit a firelord) Basically if ultron is taken out of the picture the rest of your team is 7 attack or less. They would have trouble hitting most medics much less firelord. So, if the other team can take out ultron (or wound him to the point where he is useless) then you are sol. Everything on your team is built around enhancing ultron. Nothing works on it's own. Heck even if they just have a black widow walk up and incapacitate him every other turn, you're in trouble.

You strategy could effectively use your 303 points of team to take out one 97 point firelord. Of course that's assuming that your opponents other 203 points of figures take no action what-so-ever. Other wise, you could be in trouble.:eek:

[mon-el]

It's a tough call, like shin-goji said, he's a good guy, but his team is pure cheese, and it's almost the same team every time out. Although I don't think an anti-firelord team is the answer...I remember beating him in a tourney...I had V Cyclops, E Hawkeye, a few others I can't remember. I just took out the barriers he put up with my Cyc, then blasted him with Hawkeye. So it's possible to beat him with a non-cheese team. I do think that someone should explain to him WHY it's a cheesy team, and why he should play different characters.
Although I would like to mention one thing for shin-goji...I caught your rant on here a few weeks back about playing Batman teams...was that a shot at ME?? lol...Yes, I play the Bats team alot, but hell, at least I mix it up every now and again! Hmmmm...let's see...3 Nightwings...2 Batmans...3 Harleys...a few Robins...I GOT MY NEW TEAM!! lol...just kidding, judge sir.
Who was that guy who brought *2* Sinestros and *3* Harleys to a tourney once...??? hehehe...

[TheDarkKnight]

That guys team sounds like the perfect plan. I mean even the guy who invented the game said Firelord was alright read the interview.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by mon-el
Who was that guy who brought *2* Sinestros and *3* Harleys to a tourney once...??? hehehe...

I brough *1* Sinestro and 3 Harleys and a E Flash, THANKYOUVERYMUCH :)

It got me my second LE Catwoman which I traded for an LE Man-Bat.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by TheDarkKnight
That guys team sounds like the perfect plan. I mean even the guy who invented the game said Firelord was alright read the interview.

First of all TDK, he didn't invent the game, he signed on after IC. Read the article a little more carefully. Second, he called the figure a crutch for weak and unimaginative players. Which brings me to; Third, you're well known for being f-lord's girlfriend and wanting to marry him, so your opinion is jaded to begin with.

[shin-goji]

NOW, I'm on to my original post...

I gave this situation much thought and consideration. Do I or do I not go to this virus player and tell him the other players are tired of facing his cheese-lord's team.

No.

Here's why. I've already solved the problem in Tourneys, making a house rule of no dupes and lifting the ban on V Firelord. The three poor souls who had to face The Virus: SHIELD, Graf Zemo and SpiderSense, were his last victims in a tourney. Virus won't be able to play his multi-F-lord team in a tourney anymore. The first rule of running a game is that your players have fun, and I plan to make sure that EVERYONE enjoys themselves.

Now in non-tourney games, it's not my responsibility. If players stop accepting his challenges to play, that is their business, and maybe he'll understand why. He is free to play whatever he wants in a non-tourney setting. I can't teach him a lesson and it's wrong for me to do so. If he comes up to me and says anything, I'll tell him honestly. And if he challenges me it is up to me to choose a cheesy or non-cheesy team. It's just a game. As a judge I'm supposed to be impartial. He might be the one guy I can unload my power gaming guilty pleasures on. If I go to him with the player's concerns, it sets a bad example and seems like the judge is coming down on him.

I hope Spidersense, Mon-El and Graf Zemo understand. I really do think this will be the best approach.

[Spidersense]

I put my anti-Firelord team together last night based around Dr. Doom/Mastermind and Doombots. I cant wait to try it out.

[shin-goji]

Now my post doesn't mean I won't back my players up! i'll have to bring the pain with my BCF team!
LE [Berserker] Wolverine
V Sabretooth
U Spiral
U Elektra
R Jean Grey
V Wasp

[mon-el]

I have no probs with the way you're handling the situation, I think the no dupes rule is a great rule to begin with, I'm not a fan of teams with dupes...it's too cheap and easy. That ruling should solve the "barrier brothers" problem.
Good job, judgeman!

[shin-goji]

Mmmmm, my posterior is so moist and warm from the flagrant butt-kissing. Thank you my loyal minions...I mean subjects!

[Spidersense]

Mon-el: I look forward to any battle we may have in the future as we have not faced each other yet. I love Bats, but as I got my @$$ handed to me by him a couple of times, I am eagerly awaiting the chance to smash him.

[shin-goji]

E Ultron + E Annihilus + R Robin + R Steel = Hide in Shadows with Smash Hiding in Shadows! Stir until cheese has coagulated.

[mon-el]

lol...u guys rule!
spidersense...I look forward to the challenge sir! I'm considering a Bats team for the tourney this weekend, but I've got a couple of others I'd like to give a shot, esp. in the 400 point environment. (HELLO OWAW SUPES!!) Either way, we will have to play sometime soon.
As for our esteemed judge...dont get too high on your horse...one bad ruling, and it's:
shin-goji gets in car
shin-goji starts car
shin-goji and car go BOOM!

:D

[Spidersense]

Mon-el, I'm sure you have your own supply, but I do work for an Italian company, so...you know...maybe we can talk...

[shin-goji]

I'm warning you mon-el. I got kaiju in high places. "Two kaiju walk into a bar."
I'm pedicting some Darkseid action. Did you see the flyers I made fo the tourney?
FILTHY HUMANS! (http://neomonsterisland.com/hctourney.jpg)

[mon-el]

hehehe....I'll keep that in mind, spidersense. It's been awhile since I talked with my uncle Vinny...
;)

[mon-el]

AWESOME flyer!! Apes rule!

[Spidersense]

Fantastico! *under breath (stinkin' family obligations...)

[ANTIPASTA]

V- Blastaar
E-Annhilus
R-Avalanche
R-Pyro
R-hydra medic
Running shot and barrier, work as a team once you get firelord hurt use barriers to keep him from running away to bring him down.
also keep in mind Blastaar on his first click will be knocked to his sweet spot by a firelord.

[Thorgrin]

nah, you'd be surprised on how quick they can go. I think there was a limit of 3 or 5 actions as well (not including leadership). :)

Originally posted by Joe Kerr
A 500 point tournament game? That's going to take awhile.

[ScrewTape]

Being a HC n00b I have stayed out of most of the firelord talks but after reading the short talk with Jon Leithusser and the first post of this thread I feel as though I must comment.

When I read things from Leithusser like:

I kind of look at him as a crutch used by players who don't want to have to think… "Okay, my team is Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, and a medic." Yippee. What fun. I suppose in tournament play that has to be the thought process because winning is the driving desire.

I was agape when I read this. What does that attitude do to ADRESS the problem? Without going into a repeat of many threads here I will assume that we all will agree (whether we like it or not) that FL (I prefer the E FL) is the best unit in the game. Saying that someone is using a “crutch” does not help you from getting your butt kicked by him in every game. As the point was made here earlier the ONLY way to beat FL is to put FL on your team OR spend all 300 of your points to counter a sub 100 point piece (leaving your opponent to have 200+ points to play with). What is more shocking is this same attitude is echoed here.

There's a local monkey at our venue… this virus only plays two to three firelords… No I don't want to play you because your team is a crutch and unoriginal…

Does criticizing someone for playing within the rules fix anything?

He's just a bad player… I've only beat him once or twice…

Is he a “bad player” because he wins?

Also I noticed a paradox in the first post.

But I'm getting tired of trying to come up with non-cheesy teams in order to … have fun… You can come up with a fun theme team, but it will fall pretty quick…

and later:

I think he just enjoys playing them…

So HE *IS* having fun playing with FL right? The game is about fun right? So why does it make him a “bad player” if *HE* (the monkey/virus) is having fun?

Shin-goji, I did not mean to attack you with this post (if you took it that way please do not), but I do want to attack this attitude that you and the LEAD DEVELOPER (as I type this I am STILL in disbelief as his comments) of the game has shown. Something MUST be done with FL or all marvel games will boil down to FL vs FL. Even worse the teams do not even attack each other, they will just sit and wait until time limit/turn limit is about to be hit and try to fry one or two units for the win. This is *TERRIBLE* for the game as a whole. FL was a mistake they need to admit that and adjust his points. It would only take one statement added to the errata that says FL is now X points instead of printed value. You can call me “weak”, “cheesy” and a “bad player” all you want but if you do not have a FL on your team I will beat you with mine.

[ANTIPASTA]

firelord isn't that hard to take down, it just takes a plan ie. let your fire lord hit my blastaar once. Attack goes up defence is 19 and damage is 4 what does firelord look like after four clicx #### firelord is dead and blastaar has never felt better. or stealth thats a big one outwit a vet bullseye has a good chance to take firelord down and he has better range. so just because you or some punk has a firelord dosen't mean you have a win you just have a difrent plastic peice for me to take to the cleaners!

[ANTIPASTA]

oh and the kid is a highly uninovative player that is not growing at all just stagnet never really learning the game, just a few figs

[shin-goji]

This response is for Screwtape, who presented a very valid argument. Let me clarify my post.

Virus is a bad player because in the 4 to 5 hours that he spends at our venue, tourney or not, he only uses one formula to build his team. It always consists of Two to Three F-Lords, two medics, and a variable support staff, usually consisting of U Elektra and some barrier casters. He has a whoe extra large tackle box of other clix that he has never brought out to see the light of day.

This causes him to be very unenjoyable to play against. He plays aggressive and defensive at the same time. He IS a good person. Just a bad player. He doesn't even know who most of the clix are. He refers to Thor as "viking hat guy." He doesn't even recognize who Firelord is, and asks when his comic series was. It makes it worse that he is partialy deaf, so communicating with him is trying at times.

You have a very valid point about my previous post being contradictive, so I hope this clears things up. You do have a point about F-lord, but he's not broken. Playing with one F-lord, as azs would say, is no problem. When two or more are brought to the table, all fun and sportsmanship go out the window.

[mon-el]

One thing shin-goji didn't mention is that this is EVERY WEEK. Same formula, same basic team, same basic play.
I dont know about everyone else, but I want to play against something new and different on a constant basis. If he would just change things up every once in a while, there wouldnt be an issue.

[CptBlood]

Originally posted by ScrewTape
So HE *IS* having fun playing with FL right? The game is about fun right? So why does it make him a “bad player” if *HE* (the monkey/virus) is having fun?
]

Gaming is a social setting. Being a 'good player' also includes being aware if the people around you are having fun.

But I dont blame the players. In my tournies I make changes to make a more balanced playing field which keeps its fun. The week I upped all Firelords cost +40 (still cheap) there were 5 out of 10 players using Firelord.
It was to the point that all the others would either quit or join them. I didnt want half the players all using Firelord so I did what I had to.

You judges that agree everything is not perfect remember you can make house rules.

CptBlood

[Slade Sable]

CptBlood,

Rather than upping Firelord's point cost, why not make a house rule against figures using RCE when B2B?

Just a thought. - Slade Sable

[Jay10]

Originally posted by shin-goji
He doesn't even know who most of the clix are. He refers to Thor as "viking hat guy." He doesn't even recognize who Firelord is, and asks when his comic series was.

I know very little about comics, I play Heroclix because it's a fun game. Comic knowledge is not a Hero Clix requirement.

Originally posted by shin-goji
Playing with one F-lord, as azs would say, is no problem. When two or more are brought to the table, all fun and sportsmanship go out the window.

The same could be said for any named figure(I myself am not a dupes fan), but it's as specially true for Firelord, possibly because he's broken.

[Jean_genie]

I would fix the problem by playing lots of SHIELD guys. But that's how I've been fixing everything lately, so don't listen to me :)

I made and anti-Firelord team for a tourney once. Good thing too, since I played about 3 of them. There were more .... I only played 3 :) Anyway, ir was U Wolvie, E Pyro, Vet Bullseye, and a couple taxis/medics. I think I had an Exp Panther too, but that';s not important. Anyway, first thing I diod was to taxi Pyro in range to fire some EE at Firelord's taxi and/or medic. I don't usually plan of hitting Firelord, but hooray if I do. Now I've slowed him down a little and softened up his medics, he's less mobile. Next I usually taxi U Wolverine up to him and hit him(making sure to keep him out of everyone else's LOF) .... he's not dead yet, but he's not much a threat by then. Even with RCE, his only target would be Wolverine, who would just get fired into Charge. Bullsye and Pyro clean up, and since Wolverine usually has been blasted into Charge mode, I send him after the Black Panther or Scarlet Witch that is usually hiding somewhere.

One of the best things about using U Wolverine on Firelord is that in many cases, it's *good* for him to hit you, since that makes you more mobile for taking out the rest of his army.

[CptBlood]

Originally posted by Slade Sable
CptBlood,

Rather than upping Firelord's point cost, why not make a house rule against figures using RCE when B2B?

Just a thought. - Slade Sable

That was a thought but the problem was everyone had Firelord and Dr Strange, or worse, Firelord and Vision (we have no-dups rule too).
If that player managed to pick a thick indoor map it was very hard to beat.
Vision and FL come through a wall and get in first 5 damage. Both have such deep dials that taking one out in one turn is very hard. Then they push as long as they feel save and finally Phase back through the walls to get healed.
If you try to counter by going for the medics you get tagged by FL enough time thats you have already lost.

Anyway when FL phases out at will the basing issue did not solve the problem. And though Ive never seen him in tourny play, Id hate to hurt poor Quasar *grin*.
I also like the fact that flyers cant base people like Bulleyes and Pyro. Flyers and good enough already.

CptBlood

[Slade Sable]

I can see your point, but don't you think 40 points is a little much? I can see 10 points, maybe 15.

About Vision/Firelord or Dr. Strange/Firelord indoors, you can easily outwit phasing, then they are both screwed (especially if you use a Black Panther with Stealth, or a team of Superman enemies).

Just out of curiosity, do you post your house rules before the tourney? I know I would be really upset if I created a team with Firelord only to find out that I have to get rid of a 40 point figure so my points add up to the requirements.

[Steve Shady]

well, as a response, Firelord is one of the chars I dont really know in Marvel. What u said about virus-guy not knowing who they are, I try to make teams opposing to that. I like to make teams with chars I know, thats the fun of it, making spiderman kill hulk in a board game. Thats the point of Heroclix, isnt it?

[CptBlood]

Originally posted by Slade Sable
I can see your point, but don't you think 40 points is a little much? I can see 10 points, maybe 15.


Our town is small enough that Im lucky to keep a tourny alive. For four weeks (before I was a Judge) we had a mere two players, me and one other random person.
Chances are very slim that a new player would show up with enough tourny savy to be concerned about a house rule (I wish there were). But if that unlikely event happened I sure I could figure something out.
All the employee's know the house rules. Since house rules are allowed I cant see a hard core player traveling very far without calling or emailing or at least bringing extra pieces.

As far as the 40 points, one of our players went off to college in Seattle. He emailed me back to get our rules for when he returned home for Christmas break. At the store he played there FL was +70! I did think this was too much so I took each version of FL and compared them to other pieces of the new price.

For example
106 New Rookie FL price
109 Rookie Thor
103 Exp Annihilus

I popped off all the dials and compared. Im comfortable that they look about the same. I wont go into details but a big factor is that FL has one more click. That much more to survive to get back for healing.

CptBlood

[Azrael0626]

I can sympathize with you. At the local tournies where I play there is a player who plays 3 firelords, 3 vultures and a medic. He plays it very often. Especially, when there is an LE he wants. At tournies where he doesn't use that specific team he has at least one Firelord in whatever team he is using. He is actually a very good player which is why I don't understand why he always uses the team. It is really irritating to play the same team over and over again. Beating the team is not the problem. I've taken it out before. Personally, I've never used Firelord and never will. I think that anyone who uses him has no originality and it really takes no skill to use a Firelord team. I really think that there should be an errata saying that there can only be one Firelord in any team. It really takes the fun out of the game when you sit down for a match and it's just a variation of the same team everyone else uses. We have a local player who did nothing but complain about the Firelord team that I mentioned above and then had the nerve to come to a tourney that I ran using a a carbon copy of the other guy's team.
Anyway, back to the topic. I have a lot of players ask me about their teams or what kind of teams to build and I always encourage them not to use Firelord and I encourage you to do the same. You can easily beat a Firelord team by not stooping to yout opponent's level. Alot of people have already given you some very good suggestions, but you should try something that you enjoy playing. I like to build a different team everytime I play. I don't always get the chance to, but it makes the game interesting and fun. What you could do is build a team that constantly beats this guy's Firelord team and he may eventually get tired of losing and stop playing it. Then, try new teams again and it should keep it fun.

[Slade Sable]

CptBlood -

After doing a little checking on the figures you were comparing him to when you made your decision about adding 40 points, here is my opinion:

About the 109 point Rookie Thor:
First of all, Thor has the Avengers team ability, where Firelord has none. You have to agree that being a part of the Avengers is a major bonus to any figure. The free movement is very good to have.
Second, Thor also has Invulnerability for the first 3 clicks. Which, barring critical hits, eliminates many figures from being able to damage him. Granted his defense is 16 rather than Firelord's 17, which makes him easier to hit. A common Thug doing 1 damage is useless in a attack on Thor, but rolling an 11 against Firelord the Thug would do damage to him. Sure, the barrier ability Firelord has is not a bad ability, but it is definitely not Invulnerability. After Thor loses Invulnerability he still has Toughness for 3 clicks, which again, eliminates many figures from being able to hurt him.
Third, Thor has Superstrength for 6 clicks. Add that on top of the 3 damage, and he is a major pain to deal with. Being able to do 5 damage for 2 clicks, then 4 damage for the next 4 clicks and 3 damage on the last click of having Super Strength (assuming your using a heavy object). That way better than Firelord's RCE. Firelord is able to do 5 damage for 1 click, 4 damage for 1 click and 3 damage for 2 clicks.

Experienced Annihilus:
He has the Minions of Doom team ability, which is probably the best team ability out there.
He has a Range of 10 where as Firelord only has a Range of 6. Plus coupled with Annihilus' Running Shot, he then has a "Range" of 14.
Like Thor, Annihilus has Invulnerability. Again, this eliminates alot of figures from doing him harm. Then later on he has Toughness.

I really don't agree with the +40, I especially can't see adding 70! Since you added the 40, how many times has anyone used Firelord? I'm betting it isn't many, if any. So you have effectively "banned" Firelord from play.
Also, wass it Firelord that you were worried about or was it the Firelord and Phasers combo that had you worried?

I come from a town of 3,000 people and 5 of us play weekly, after checking the population of "Duluth, MN" I found that there are over 80,000 people living in that town, plus 2 venues. I find it hard to believe that you can only find 2 people to play.

But then again these are just my opinions, and if everyone agrees than you don't really have a problem. I hope there are no hard feelings between you and I, I just enjoy debating.

- Slade Sable

[Boyd_ZINJ]

Originally posted by warden


The thing to do, as some have already indicated, is to change the game because changing the game is easier than changing the players. If you want to see people using theme teams then make this a rule for the next event. Our next event here requires teams to be proper teams like the X-Men or Avengers with only one non-aligned ringer of 50 points or less (so Firelord need not apply). I played a test team of Sinister Syndicate last night and had a ball.


**thinks for a moment**

I imagine an army of Doombots with a single vet or rook Doom. (rook for less points and an extra rook doombot or cheapie unit)

Originally posted by hudson20




I checked out you team and found a couple of problems. The first of course being that it comes out to be 303 points. 97 points is an awful lot to give up a 400 point game.

Second is the fact that if your main hitter (ultron) takes a hit before the firelord does you have no explosion power.

Then get a few explosion characters... a doom bot or 2 is nice... or anything with explosions and low numbers... maybe add a few medics for healing? In reality i like probability control. :) Does not always work... but can! :)


Originally posted by shin-goji
... He has a whoe extra large tackle box of other clix that he has never brought out to see the light of day.

This causes him to be very unenjoyable to play against. He plays aggressive and defensive at the same time. He IS a good person. Just a bad player. He doesn't even know who most of the clix are. He refers to Thor as "viking hat guy." He doesn't even recognize who Firelord is, and asks when his comic series was. It makes it worse that he is partialy deaf, so communicating with him is trying at times.
.

**starts to boo and hiss**

Does it matter if he knows who the characters are? Sure it helps if your are doing and RPG or a theme team. However, Heroclix is a game. You learn the rules of the game and how to play... regardless of which game it is. Do you need to know all the history of Mechwarrior (battletech) to understand and enjoy the Mechwarrior game? Do you need to know all the history of a video game to enjoy your average consule game? The answer is no. You do not need to know it. However, it does enhance your fun.

Playing a cheesy team versus a non cheesy team...

Of course, we all hate the cheese in teams... Firelord is a cheese player. However, you learn ways around it. While Firelord (or an army of F Lords) is hard to beat... it is not impossible... and I agree about the variety part. The best way to know strategies, in my opinion, is to play other ways. I learn best by trying nwe strategies out... or playing new teams against my old teams or teams which I know are superiour.

Bottoms line... knowing who "viking hat guy" is or knowing his name... does not make him a bad person. Knowing how to use THOR is (or when not to) is much better.

Heroclix is a game. With it's own rules and cheese. I personally think doom and doom bots are a tad cheesy but not as much as F Lord Afterall, a doom next to a shield agent using a shield team ability is asking for more damage... or a doom next to a wolfsbane and then using x-men ability to give wolfsbane the 1 click of damage needed to get "good" is cheese. There is allot of cheese, but there is also allot of good playing. Best to know how to use the cheese and how to counter it. Sooner or later you will see the cheese.

[EVIL CAP]

Never worry about the dope that has to use 3 or more FLs as a crutch be worried about the guy fielding one FL and a good team to make sure you cant just center on FL and beat them easy

FL is a killer damage figure that exploits virtually everything in the system but he is stopable espcially when all you have to face is Multiple FLs.Stelth Annihlus provides much better range to get the first hit Wild card that works great with the Bat-teamers and RS to get the much needed hits on a Retreating FL Pair him with another stealth character use Perplexers[something FL cant afford to use] and pound away on him then his medics when he predictably retreats.A one dimensional attack is easy to counter a multi-dimensional attack with one cheap FL is much more devastating

[CptBlood]

Originally posted by Slade Sable
CptBlood -

After doing a little checking on the figures you were comparing him to when you made your decision about adding 40 points, here is my opinion:

- Slade Sable

I knew you might bring up alot of points that you did.

I look at it like this-
Invulnerability - In the same want you say its easy to outwit phasing, I assume most people will outwit Invulnerrability. Thats one reason I like Herc better than Invulunerable goons. He last longer given Outwit. Firelord also last longer given Outwit and has a higer defense.
Damage - FL is 5 Damage. That kills many pieces in one blow. Hit and runs like that in tournies are cheap but effect. Kill one thing and then turtle.
Avenger move and SS - This game unforunately is about taxi's. If you want Thor to attack he cant use Avenger. Most need to waste a move to get an object but I will grant you Thor could running shot to pick one up while range attacking.

Ive never seen Rookie Annihilus used by any one in a tourny.

The strategies I was seeing, people would phase in from a thick indoor map and go for a kill. They didnt care if FL got hit...all the easier to heal him. And they would not place Vision in such a easy way as to be outwitted. And basing Vision was fine by them since he always had a heavy object in hand after the first move.

I dont think FL is better than Thor, I just think they have about equal value in a tourny setting. Not at all the same as a last-man-standing setting.

Yes, we have 80,000 about and 3 colleges and 3+ business schools. You would think we would have many more gamers than we do. But this is the first real game store we had EVER. The other venue is owned by sports card guys that never cared about gaming and have zero gaming space. Im hoping by summer the word will get around.

CptBlood

[MarkFinn]

I've always been of the opinion that we need to police our own.

Many of us in the Geek Nation have had to endure scorn, ridicule, or worse from peers and parents. In suffering for our hobbies, our vices, our books and television shows, when we get together with a group of like-minded individuals, a certain giddiness sets in. I call it Convention-Fever, but it can happen in just about any sized gathering of nerds.

Let's take Gamer X, who is loudmouthed, obnoxious, not funny, and kinda smelly. He cracks dumb jokes, ridicules other people, and makes an a$$ of himself every time he shows up to game. What do most people do? They cringe, try to sit downwind of him, and eat more Cheetos to try and drown out his "How many Eldars does it take to screw in a lightbulb" jokes. You want to yell at this guy, tell him to shut up, or kick him out of the group, but you don't, because you KNOW he doesn't have any other friends, has a hard life, or some other thing that prohibits you from speaking up.

I think that's a disservice to the room, especially Gamer X. For some folks, gaming, or tourneys, or conventions, or the weekly jaunt to the comic shop, etc. are their only chance for social interaction. Why not teach them the right way to do it? Courtesy, manners, civil tones of voice, and in the case of this thread, sportsmanlike conduct.

You don't have to be mean, or rude. Most people really want to be liked, to fit into a group (especially if your group are the only people who actually GET Klingon humor), but may not be completely clear on what the social contract calls for. Teach them.

If you're having trouble with a tournament player, there's nothing wrong with pulling that person off to the side, away from the group, and quietly explaining that gloating and yelling isn't the way to celebrate a victory (or whatever the problem is). Maybe you judges don't/can't do it, but some of the more level-headed players can.

Policing our own. That, my friends, is the way it oughtta be.

[kikerus27]

Originally posted by hudson20


I'm always looking for anti firelord strategys and the best I've found so far is using a lot of batman ally units. Unfortunately mr lord can still fly around and punch batman in the face for 3 points of damage each time. So that one doesn't work so well.

I checked out you team and found a couple of problems. The first of course being that it comes out to be 303 points. 97 points is an awful lot to give up a 400 point game.

Second is the fact that if your main hitter (ultron) takes a hit before the firelord does you have no explosion power. The fact that you have a limited range taxi for ultron (vultures 8 range is less than another firelords 12) means that most of the time firelord will get the first hit in. Also, a vet firelord will only miss ultrons 18 defense 17% of the time. (Not very good odds.) Ultron has a 28% chance of missing a firelord after taking 3 clicks from that firelord. (5 clicks - 2 for invulnerability).

Third, your backup hitter besides ultron is rookie stephen strange. Stephen can only hit a firelord 17% of the time when he's on his best click And you mentioned that you were gonna push him once. (droping him to only an 8% chance to hit a firelord) Basically if ultron is taken out of the picture the rest of your team is 7 attack or less. They would have trouble hitting most medics much less firelord. So, if the other team can take out ultron (or wound him to the point where he is useless) then you are sol. Everything on your team is built around enhancing ultron. Nothing works on it's own. Heck even if they just have a black widow walk up and incapacitate him every other turn, you're in trouble.

You strategy could effectively use your 303 points of team to take out one 97 point firelord. Of course that's assuming that your opponents other 203 points of figures take no action what-so-ever. Other wise, you could be in trouble.:eek:

Thanks for the comments, hudson, but I found some problems in them...

First, my team is actually 299 points... I use it in 300-point tournaments, against (usually) 2-experienced-Firelords-based armies.
Well, if my opponent use one of his Firelords as a taxi, it's going to be a very expensive one. In the example you gave, one Firelord would taxi the other and hit my Ultron for 3 damage. But remember Ultron can take some damage and still be effective (he is not Firelord). So, If I get Leadership, I can still counter MC'ing one Firelord with Puppet Master (what will also push FL) to kill one Medic AND cause damage to the other one (My Ultron will still make 3 damage - without Enhancement or Shield - and have an attack of 12; I can make it a 13 or 14, with Hydra team ability). If I don't get an extra action, I can choose MC or Ultron's attack.
One pushed Firelord and the other one with 3 or 4 damage will not be a serious threat, specially in a 300-point game, and since I can push next round to give more 4 clicks of damage to the pushed one. Two Exp. Firelords cost 162 points, wich leaves 138 to my opponent for fill his team. Usualy, Firelord-based teams also have at least two Medics, Vultures or Wasps and Bullseyes. I can heal my Ultron and use Enhanced EE against them. They won't last much.
Of course my team isn't invincible, but it is a threat for that specific team I commonly face. I'd like using some DC or Clobbering Time figs as well, but unfortunatelly they aren't available in Brazil yet and are forbidden for tourneys.

Thanks for the feedback, though. I really appreciated it and will try and build better strategies.

Junior.