A comment on Jon Leithusser's "taxi" comments

[ohoni]

I'd just like to say that I agree with him in principle, but it's really their own fault. ;)

He says he doesn't like the "taxi" phenominon, as it's used, because that's not how real superheroes fight. I can agree with that.

The problem is that without taxis, many figures would be unplayable. Why? Because then you'd have to move bruisers like the Hulk into place in one turn, and attack in the second, meaning that any team with phasers or L/C characters would have to be TOTALLY out-postioned to ever be hit by such a character, since their obvious move would be to constantly run from such characters, pegging them at range.

It would make practically all melee characters worthless.

So how COULD you remove the taxi phenominon? Easy. Make it so that ALL characters AUTOMATICALLY have both Charge AND Running Shot. This would accurately reflect the comics, in which heroes rarely run up to an opponent, wait a few seconds, and then hit them.

To make C/RS characters still vaiable, enhance the actual powers of those moves, so that these characters can move their FULL range before attacking, while everybody else has to move the half-ranges like current C/RS characters.

This alone would signifigantly reduce taxis, but really the game would be totally unplayable if they simpy removed taxis without making this change (not that they would).


Oh, as a side note: Do NOT give Kyle Rayner the GL team ability. I say this because Kyle should be strong enough that he should cost a whole lot of points WITHOUT this ability (Superman or higher), and since he never actually WAS a member of the Corp, he doesn't need this ability. Save it for some weak-### taxis like that Jordan punk.

[PMMJ]

I personally don't truck with game designers complaining about how players play the game they wrote. If you didn't want this to happen, you should have written the rules better or playtested more thoroughly. And I am no fan of taxi-ing, neither.

[Clikzilla]

Hmmm...I was pretty disturbed by his comments.

Making sense for comic books is one thing...and I say leave that to the guys writing comic books. This is a tactical strategy game, and needs to be played as such. Taxis are a valuable strategic resource, which I use pretty regularly.

I'm thinking that if they eliminate or substantially modify taxiing, it would make a whole lot of flyers basically unusable--Man-Bat, Vulture, and so on...who are primarily used as taxis. I mean, seriously: who's going to use Man-Bat or the Vulture if he can't be used as a taxi?

On the other hand, it would considerably boost the value of TK as a tool for moving figs around. ;)

[swix]

Oh. Vulture unplayable. Woe is me.

Vulture should be unplayable. He's a ####py super-villian. He shouldn't be a staple he should be joke.

[bakija]

Clikzilla wrote:
>>Man-Bat, Vulture, and so on...who are primarily used as taxis. I mean, seriously: who's going to use Man-Bat or the Vulture if he can't be used as a taxi? >>

Which is as it should be, really. I mean, for freaks sake--Vulture costs 15 points. He is little more than a glorified Thug. He *should* be useless, as his cost indicates that he *is* useless. There is clearly something wrong when a figure that should be essentailly useless and priced accordingly is one of the most effective units in the game as he allows the likes of Thanos and Firelord to move *and* shoot on the same action.

Running shot and charge are very expensive powers. Does it make sense that you can spend 15 points on Vulture and give *any* figure running shot and/or charge (well, better, actually, as you get to move 8+ squares too) when characters with rs and charge generally pay through the nose to get it?

-Peter

[Earnan]

There are ways to fix taxiing without getting rid of it entirely.

I was talking about it with my fiancee, and what we came up with is 1) Don't let fliers carry fliers (though this is a kneejerk anti-Firelord reaction that I don't really see as necessary) and 2) don't allow a character to use RCE after getting taxied. This would get rid of the real "problem" with taxiing.

Now, I'm not saying these changes are necessary. I enjoy the game the way it is. That kind of change would make the game entirely different. Which could be good or bad. *shrug*

Just some opinions-
WarlordEarnan

[Jay10]

I think Ohoni came up with one of the best solutions.

I would say just give every character the ability to move before attacking, then taxies would rarely be used any way(but still effective for things like moving heavy hitters on to a roof top). As for Charge(or Running Shot), just give those characters the ability to +1 damage when moving before a close(range if with Running Shot) combat attack.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Earnan
There are ways to fix taxiing without getting rid of it entirely.

I was talking about it with my fiancee, and what we came up with is 1) Don't let fliers carry fliers (though this is a kneejerk anti-Firelord reaction that I don't really see as necessary) and 2) don't allow a character to use RCE after getting taxied. This would get rid of the real "problem" with taxiing.

Just some opinions-
WarlordEarnan

1) well, there you go flyers not carying flyers just doesn't work.

2) HMM, yes this will really be a kneejerk anti-Cyclops reaction !
yes but you can TK him?
well sorry but you can still taxi Tahnos and the likes, really srewing over RCE !

pulling people away in melee (without a diceroll) with taxi's should be stopped making plasticity better.
that is the ONLY rule taxiing should get.
taxiing makes the game run fast and have everyone be in striking range of the rest of the figs, If they just BAN taxies HC will be just another MK.:rolleyes:
This is exactely why I like HC better then MK (especially in tournaments !)

I don't want to ruin the surprise, BUT without taxiing everybody would just play the 10 range figs: creating a REAL stalemate !!

playing melee would become a laughing matter.

[twinz]

Does anyone have Jon Leithusser's e-mail address?

And if not, why? What's he got to hide?

[Logan185]

The comment about moving, waiting a few seconds, then move again. It makes perfect sense. Attack of opportunity. Batman charges Joker. Is joker just standing there? No. He's firing his gun while Batman is displaying his grace. Joker may or may not hit. Superman carries Bats into battle. Supes drops off Bats at the nearest rooftop. Bats does a "G.I. Joe Roll" (old cartoon reference) and throws his Batarangs. It makes sense. I would like for characters with superstrength should be able to throw characters like they can throw objects. Each character is equivalent to a heavy object. That's just my opinion.

[bakija]

>>Does anyone have Jon Leithusser's e-mail address?>>

Probably no one, which is for the best.

>>And if not, why? What's he got to hide?>>

It isn't a matter of wanting to hide. It is a matter of not wanting to have to wade through endless ranting e-mails that are just likely to be deleted anyways.

If he wants to hear what we have to say, there are multiple forums to read.

-Peter

[rabidroadkill]

Another possible solution would be to make it like MK Dungeons. Each point of speed can be used, but you must have 4 points available to attack. That would allow for more strategy in positioning figs as well as still allow them to be "playable". However, I believe every game has its flaws. Obviously we all love the game, and we are going to continue playing regardless :D

[drmood]

My son and I played a test game this weekend where you could not give a figure an action in the same turn they had been taxied or TKed. It truly changed the game....for the better.

Suddenly, Spider-Man became a pain worth his points...running shot and charge were powers you actually used...and Firelord was not a cheesy figure! :eek:

Using a taxi was still stategic, since it allowed you to position your team quickly, but you could actually field a team with no taxis and still be competitive. This can't be said for the current taxi situation...which should tell you something.

Also, the game was surprisingly fast paced. If they make a change, this would be my choice.

[AdamWarlock]

overall, I think the MK dungeons route is the best option as for limiting taxi's. The only problem with it is that it makes The Blob unusable as his movement is often LOWER than 4... but that's not much of a problem, not using the blob, is it? Certain figures also might not be able to declare attack actions at the ends of their dials when they're a click away from ko and their stats have plummeted, but that'd be kind of interesting as well; hc's equivalent of MK's demoralized.

The taxi issue has never made much sense, for obvious reasons. This is mainly that ANY flying figure can carry ANY other figure. The Wasp flying around carrying the Hulk (who doesn't have battle fury ALL the way around) is a ridiculous concept. I don't really know how to limit who can carry who though... can't really do it like breaking down walls where you can only do it if you can do 3 damage or have super strength, as that would make it so Vulture (who DOES have some amount of super strength) and others who can carry certain teammates wouldn't be able to.

Maybe this is how taxi'ing could be limited...

Figures who cost over 100 points can only be taxi'd by flying figures that have super strength. Yes, this puts Kang & Spider Man who don't weigh much in some limited capacity, but it also makes it so you don't have wasp lugging multiple-ton-weighing brutes as if they were pillows.

[Answerman]

if the solution would be to give everybody charge then the only way to fairly use characters WITH charge or running shot, would be to allow thier full movement, then the respective attack.
I think that would make the game more like an RPG for one ; where everybody gets a move action then an attack...
and suddenly the running shot, charge power becomes an even scarier power, but at the same time is balanced out by the fact that everybody can do something similar.
I also agree that fliers shouldn't be able to carry fliers, and while I'm at it fliers with SS should be able to carry SS characters with an object, and an object them selves...
THe other solution that comes to mind is to NOT letcharacters be taxi'd from combat with out a breakaway roll.
And one of the big solutions for Firelord would be to make the RCE power NOT work when characters are base to base...regardless of flight...

I also have to say this: a great many characters in comics don't fight terribly intelligently, it WOULD make more sense to use flight the way its being used in the clix games, and thats really more a fault of the lack of thought put into comic book writing...
my 2 bits...

[Brianetz1]

I feel the same way as Jon Leithusser. This doesn't reflect the source material very well. I think the idea of making everyone have Charge/RS, and giving those with the super power the ability to move their full range and attack in the same turn would be great too.

This would make the Vultures of the world what they are in comics: Bit peices that really can't do much but be a pain in the but. People will still use the peices to get their ranged characters to their firing points but not a whole lot if you combine the 2 suggestions:

Cannot make another action when being taxied and characters all can make 1/2 of movement and still make an attack.


This would make taxiing a thing of the past and make some of the big brusiers that have charge a whole lot more playable.....just look at Hulk....Hulk moves into Firelords range gets blasted and gets a ton stronger then moves in to tear Firelord limb from limb.

[Emanon]

To throw my $.02 in, I think a good solution to this would be in two parts;

1) the previously stated idea of everyone having charge/RS, and those with that ability get to move their full distance

2) A flier can carry another flier, but only one with a lower point cost. This would allow Thanos/Thor/Doom to carry just about anyone they want, but Vulture could only carry medics and thugs, which would make sense.

[Jean_genie]

I think the Leith-man was against taxi'ing when in combat, not as a whole. For instance, it makes perfect sense that Vulture or a Doombot might carry somebody into battle, or maybe even out of battle. What doesn't make sense is when Vulture taxis Herc in to hit a medic, and then picks him up to go hit another medic, and so on.

I think a better taxi fix would be to give all taxi's without Super Strength and automatic push. Or maybe they could get one token, and then a second unless they roll a 5 or a 6 or something.

Edit: after reading the last post that got left while I was typing, I think that's probably an even better way to do it.

[UltraMANOS]

All of you are just making everything way to complicated!!!!,Why Change, when we can simply adapt to the strategy. Even if things did change, everyone who objected to taxi's will complain on how the way they decided to change the blasted rule, I mean you do realize they will not change it the way we want it , if they didn't change firelord then they shouldn't change the rule on carrying, MY GOD! Like thing are'nt complicated enough with rulings and amendments to the rules made for this game. I say leave it the way it is, and deal with it.If the majority of you want this game to continue being the great game it's been for the past 7 months it's been out, Quit complaining about Game mechanics such as carrying. So what if it's not used the way it was meant to be, niether was Firelord and we seem to deal with him, heck people rarely use him anymore because there so much fuss about him. I tend to bring him out on people who complain about him so much, and yes I do it the way people complain about it the most, with another flier like E wasp or if they really cheese me off another Firelord, why because I'm tired of people complaining , about him. It's a game, use the rules to adapt and come up with strategy against the issue at hand.
I agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but when a strongly voice opinion means completley changing things to the point where you have to make a completly new rule book in order to satisfy those that don't seem to know how to tough it out, is absolutely ridiculus. I can understand complaining about the way a character is translated into the game, but the game itself:rolleyes: . Go play MK Dungeons, or something that allready has those rules and no fliers and rarely any medics, and low cost characters. I say leave heroclix the way it is

[WarUlt]

I'm not really in favor of any rule changes, but if something must be done, carried characters could not use RCE or CCE after being carried. Just like running shot and RCE can't be used in tandem because it will disrupt your "Expert ranged abilites", you can't shoot accurately after being flown all over the battlefield. Yes, this will hurt Firelord but I have no gripes with him anyway. I don't use him and can beat him fairly easily.

[Talon378]

why not just half the movement of any flier that isd carrying someone else? Allow for taxi'ing, but limit the movement when you do it. Wasp carrying Hulk, or whoever, only 4 squares becomes less of an overbearing advantage than before I would think.

[UltraMANOS]

You people still debating about this???, here's a simple solution how about making your own God D@mn House Rulz:rolleyes:, I apologize now for my uncalled outburst, Friggin ragin' over here.But seriously make your own house rulz

[Aron]

For one - RCE and Energy Explosion (ranged attacks) are made Much more powerful because of taxiing, giving a huge advantage over melee characters (Much larger than simple basic range would grant)

as for taxiing Into battle - this is great and very comic like

as for running back to a medic so you don't get ko'd this is true to life

I think the issue will wind up being handled by simple power changes that make taxiing less necessary, and by the creation of figs who reduce the need for taxiing.

Dropping herc to paste one medic, then later on doing the same thing to paste another medic isn't really that uncomic like either

This issue can and will become more balanced as time goes on, with new powers, and new pieces who change the way we play...

That being said, I still think people with leap climb should be able to carry others.

[ludd_gang]

I think the simplest solution is best:

No taxi break aways without a roll.


This would still allow rescues, but not 100% reliable rescues.

[Zeorymer]

I must admit that Jon comments on taxi-ing killing the fun of the game is true. It's also a little bit true that heros and villains rarely act like this in comics. But in big fight in comics I have rarely (I can't actually remember a comics in which it occured) seen someone heal another one. Taxi-ing isn't that incompatible with comics. It's healing which is a problem to me. tournament teams always include one healer. That's stupid and completely incompatible with the comics. Helping a friend to get a better angle of attack is something that is normal. Seen many times Colossus send Wolverine to the ennemy (some kind of taxi-ing him).
I think pointing out the taxi is one bad excuse. The real problem is the medic for me. In Paris most tournaments are in 500 points format. Players come with big guys and take them to the medicS as they get hit. It's that kind of acting that is completely different of the way it occurs in comics. Taxi-ing is just one battle strategy that is not so unthinkable after all.

[Talon378]

again, I will submit my suggestion for you all to discuss. Why not just allow taxi'ing freely, but half the movement of the flier carrying a figure. Human Torch carrying Thing, would then be reduced to a 5 movement instead of being able to taxi him 10 spaces into the board. Truly seems to be the best way to limit the ability without totally destroying the strategic value of being able to move your people.

[drhypnotic]

MAn, as an X-men fan.. Rogue would always fly around Collossus or Wolvie and drop them into battle. Course she has super Strength.

That would be a good fix. To taxi you must have super strength!

[MeatLoafX]

What about the idea that a figure who is carried or TKed cannot be given an action in the same turn after they are carried/TKed?

I think there is a Mage Knight rule similar to that with the ability "magic levitation".

Taxis will still be useful: they won't make it so that you have to push next turn to attack - but they won't add what basically amounts to charge or running shot to a character for 15-30 points.



Then again, the best idea is to just deal with it. It's a part of the game now - and this is only a game after all.

[SECRETANGEL]

i like your idea warlock...maes alota sense.
hmm wasp carrying the hulk......i seen that before.....jeez....we must kill all flyers....give them their own sperate game.....nah.

[daedalus25]

Originally posted by drhypnotic
MAn, as an X-men fan.. Rogue would always fly around Collossus or Wolvie and drop them into battle. Course she has super Strength.

That would be a good fix. To taxi you must have super strength!

Oh, but she doesn't have Super Strength in this game, so she'd no longer be able to taxi. ;)

I've seen many ideas that I support, and any of those changes would be a benefit to this game in my opinion. Among them are using MK:Dungeons rules, and the taxi'd/TK'd figure cannot make an action that turn (which also happens to be a MK rule). I'm still waiting to see the major rules changes that were promised a few months back - it'll be nice to see taxi'ing brought to the level it was meant to be.

[SECRETANGEL]

i agree with manos.
house rules people house rules.
i do mine exactly like the characters in comics.
ex. (magneto) to use telekenisis you do not have to be adjacent such as his powers are portayed in comics..you what im sayin?
now tourneys that diff. rules are rules like it or not. i hey im a taxi hater but when i neat a team of taxi abusers i feel freekin great. i rub it all in the opponents face n stuff.cuz i dont use flyers...well just maggo but he doesnt carry any one. one love clixers

[HalfassedNinja]

I fully support changing the RS and Charge to Full movement loike MK's Bound and Charge.

As for taxiing, I admit, while it is cheesy it's an effective strategy. I personally like using the "Chain Taxi" method. One game, Hercules was getting pounded so Vision carried Wasp to Herc and Wasp in turn carried Herc to a medic. Cheesy yes, but I won. Luckily it was just a friendly game :D

I hate when it's done to me, but if you want to play and win once in a while, ya have to adjust and use your enemy's tactics against him. (D@mn, who let the army general in here :D )

So just play, have fun, and remember that it's just a game,

The Ninja

[drhypnotic]

and my tanks need Taxis so they can get to those firelords and cyclopses faster ;o)

[Brianetz1]

I can play and have fun, but this thread was started to talk about JL's comments, not to be a arguement back and forth about changing rules. AND it all biols down to a bunch of non-comic geeks developed a game that a lot of comic geeks are going to play and that game doesn't mirror the way things work in our favorite comics.

When JL comes on as a designer he says WTF and trys to make some changes and looks at the rules and says that is not how this should work.

Now I understand that we have to work within the game mechanics of a game that we all love to play, but what is the harm in voicing our opinion on how things should work? JL obviously looks that the board from time to time so all of us Comic geeks that want the game to more like what actually happens in a comic battle should speak up.

FOr those of you that don't want to hear us state our opinion on what we would like to see then don't read our posts! and Please don't flame us because we would like to see some of the game mechaincs changed to fit what would be more like an actuall comic battle.

We all use house rules and they work great, but some of us won't play in tournements because we don't want to see wasp carying Herc into battle. No offense, but that type of stuff makes us shake our heads because that could never happen in the comics. This puts us at a big disadvantage because then we can't get the LE's and can't enjoy playing new players at tournements.

Look, all us comic geeks are looking for what is put all over Wizkids packaging......the opportunity to play out our 'dream' battles that could never or have never happened in comics, and with the current game mechanics we can't do that because more that half the characters that are big names in the Marvel/DC universes are not playable without a Taxi and this is a big problem.

[Morbius]

It's funny to me that John complains that the fights in Heroclix, a strategy game, wind up looking different than fights in the comics.

Comic books have limited page lengths, and are written by writers who produce numerous books within a difficult deadline period. Thus, there is often neither the space nor the time for complicated battle tactics--even if the writer had the knowledge and creativity to develop them in the first place. How many times, when reading a comic, have we decried a character's failure to do the obvious--like grab a fallen gun, kill the hero quickly, etc? Keeping the plot simple means sacrificing such nuances--even at times, obvious logic.

It's easier to write Conan than Elric, because the former's solution to a problem is usually to just charge in and gut the opposition. That's not a slam on Conan--that's what his creator, Robbert E. Howard said. The writer of Astro City recently reported on his long-term illness, saying that he was unable to write Astro City--a comic about complex interactions among characters, but could churn out issues of "The Avengers," because in the latter you "just have to report what happens."

I'm glad the battles look different--that they are more strategic. Reading the article, it seems like John would prefer playing with action figures. Simply charging up to one another and letting the fists/weapons fly just transforms the game into a dice rolling contest. What I like about this game is that we can find the hidden values in weak characters like the Vulture--and not recreate what the characters have done, but do what we WOULD HAVE DONE in their place.

[jolt]

I'm glad the battles look different--that they are more strategic.

I can only comment on the battles I've seen but one of the reasons I have a problem with taxiing and medics is that they take away from the strategy and the differences. Too many battles end up as the same set of conditions, move, attack, take damage, retreat, heal, repeat. There's no need for strategy. Low cost medics and flyers have a far greater impact on the game than their points would suggest. The most interesting games I've seen have usually been the ones without medics and taxis; that's when you really see the distiction of play stykes between two people as they try different gambits and thrusts. Copious use of taxis and medics just removes the need for interesting strategies (apart from some of the more basic ones).

jolt

[Brianetz1]

But the whole problem is that the Vulture and the rest of the Taxi squad never did that in any of the source material, nor did they have the power to do that.

Now the GL corp, magneto, or jean grey, that is one of the powers that they do all the time, but wasp carryng anyone???? you have got to be kidding me.

vulture having the strength to carry someone??? No way in He!!

That is JL's issue with the way the game is being played. Keep it some where near the source material. Thats all we are asking.

If this game was based on some fantasy element that had dragoons carrying people into battle people would not be crying, but you put the Wasp in place of the dragoon you have a big problem because her powers would not let her ever do that.

[AshenFang]

Ehh, not going to read all of the posts, and sorry if this has been put out there already.. ..but..

I see the biggest problem, not being in the fliers, but what they are commonly used to do. He didn't like that people tended to use them to pull characters out of combat to go get healed..

Well, you want to know WHY they don't do this in the comics?

It because how often in a comic do you have a medic ten feet back?!

I don't see it as a flaw with the fliers, but with the medics themselves. I garentee, if I knew I was beaten half to death, and all I had to do was get 20 feet so a person could make it 'all better', I and every comic character out there would do it! It's not cheap, it's common sense!

Do I have a problem with rules change for fliers? Not really. Do I think taking away medics completely is a good solution? Not really. I'm not claiming there IS a good solution.. ..just wanted to get it out.

[NateTG]

To all of the people talking about realism issues:

When was the last time anyone in the comics stopped because he walked into a potted plant?


A popular suggestion is to give all figures the ability to move half of their movement value, and then make a ranged or close combat attack., and that Charge and Running Shot should allow characters to move their full movement values.

I think that this suggestion heavily favors ranged combat oriented figures, who IMHO are already at a massive advantage.

I would prefer to make it close combat attacks only so that:

Everyone -> Half of movement and then attack.
Running Shot -> Half of movement and then shoot
Charge -> Full movement and then attack.

In general, without taxis, this means that, without taxis, a ranged combat character will get one or two opportunities to shoot before the opponent closes, running shooters will typically get an additional shot or two against an advancing opponent. (Which seems about right to me.)

If both sides have taxis, then the close combat character will probably be able to base both of the other figures to force breakaway rolls.

Of course, it does give chargers like V She-Hulk a massive combat coverage, but for 120 points, she should be good.

[PantherPriest]

The concept of flying into battle is very comic book, the concept of continuing to fly this person around just to conserve actions is not. I do like that this game plays more strategically than most comics, (save bp:cool: ) but what becomes mundane is when everybody starts using the same strategy, including a shield medic in a group of xmen who really don't know many shield medics personally. I've seen avengers carry each other plenty of times, but usually iron man sets cap into battle and cap chucks a shield and they go on about their ways.

I think that we need more character medics like jean and strange. I don't like the fact that you cannot fly up to a fig and fly them away with the rest of your movement. Flight should be used as a rescue source. I'm not saying that they should fly the character to a medic, that's silly, but I would love to retreat regroup and re attack.

But I do agree with manos, instead of complaining about taxis, I prefer to use them less and use strategy to not need them and still beat them. It can be done.



Vulture should not be useless, he should have steal energy.

[the itsy bit]

first off..
taking away the taxies makes this game like Mageknight (and makes ranged figs THAT more powerfull), everybody can have taxi's so is that the real problem?
NO.
the REAL problem is that we have cheap 12 point healers( and taxies who can pull people out of combat without having to roll for breakaway).
you think the Wasp can't carry Hercules, well then she'd be far less usefull now wouldn't she ?
Heroclix just like in the comix has nothing to do with reality !!

If you don't want taxi's go to MKrealms.com and see how varied the tournament area is there (far less then here !).
the point is play for fun !
build Teams from thesame team(X-men,Brotherhood,Avengers,Batman, etc.) then you will feel that these things are not as overpowered as they seem.

[Thunderbolts]

Any character who was moved by being carried or TK, cannot use RCE or CCE that turn.

It seemed to make sense to me after you consider that the SHIELD Sniper has RCE, and if Vulture carried her to a rooftop she couldn't just fire off a shot instantly, she'd need to set up and take aim.

And after all, you can't Charge and use CCE, or RS and use RCE, so why not?

[GroovyBoy]

Originally posted by PMMJ
I personally don't truck with game designers complaining about how players play the game they wrote. If you didn't want this to happen, you should have written the rules better or playtested more thoroughly. And I am no fan of taxi-ing, neither.

Okay, but what if they weren't the person who wrote the rules (seeing as Jon wasn't)?

Your first response might be, "Then change the rules." Okay, but then you haven't been keeping up with this board, because Jon's already explained that he doesn't have dictatorial power over the game and would need to get a lot of WK people on board before introducing a big change like that.

So, if he's not the one responsible for the rule in the first place, and he can't make sweeping changes at the snap of his fingers, what do you say next?

[AshenFang]

I say.. S#### it all!! Grr! :D

All the rules, everything, that's right! HeroClix is no longer a game! Just little people to collect.. yup. =p

(Ahem, I don't care how the rules change in any fashion, I'll continue to run the games as they are meant to be ran, and collect myself.))

[Edit: Here on down!]

Man you have a picky little cencor thingy.. can't say Scr-> <-ap. ..you know.. throw it away! It's also a kind of metal!(Kinda.)

[Xavier PhD]

hey ashen i pm'd you about another thread... check it out?

[The Burt]

Originally posted by ohoni
I'd just like to say that I agree with him in principle, but it's really their own fault. ;)

He says he doesn't like the "taxi" phenominon, as it's used, because that's not how real superheroes fight. I can agree with that.

So how COULD you remove the taxi phenominon? Easy. Make it so that ALL characters AUTOMATICALLY have both Charge AND Running Shot. This would accurately reflect the comics, in which heroes rarely run up to an opponent, wait a few seconds, and then hit them.

To make C/RS characters still vaiable, enhance the actual powers of those moves, so that these characters can move their FULL range before attacking, while everybody else has to move the half-ranges like current C/RS characters.

This alone would signifigantly reduce taxis, but really the game would be totally unplayable if they simpy removed taxis without making this change (not that they would).



Yes,
I think you are spot on. I've always had a problem with the move OR fight thing (instead of move AND fight). Unique among any wargame I've ever played (and I've played scores of rules systems). This was the main reason I got turned off to Mage Knight in the first place (okay, I charge into BtB--now I just stand there and get pummelled). I've never brought it up here before, cause it seemed as if nobody really cared all that much about that part of the games design.
Myself, I use a very different set of home-grown rules to play where speed is used not only for movement but governs how many actions you get per figure--not per team. Games are faster and much more "comic bookish". I call my rules HC Prime (the HC stands for Heroes and Criminals). For me, it is much more fun. I have just jacked into a new gaming group here and I should be able to get a lot more playtesting down to fine tune it for us. But it's pretty solid and nobody taxis. Medics are forbidden in my games as well. No intention of "publishing" my rules (that's the LAST thing this world needs is ANOTHER rules system). Just something for me and mine to knockabout with. You know just for fun.

[Jay10]

I think a good taxi solution would be that a carried character must be set down 2 spaces away from the carrier. This way you could carry a character into battle but not just keep carrying the same character around turn after turn.

[drmood]

Originally posted by The Burt
okay, I charge into BtB--now I just stand there and get pummelled

I can see the view point of this argument, and a lot of people use it to justify taxis, but moving in BTB and waiting is much closer to comics than everyone having charge/RS/taxis.

Think about it, Spider-Man sees Wasp carrying Hercules towards him. What does he do? He waits until Vulture sets down Hercules and Hercules takes a punch at him? NO WAY! He shoots a web at him (in HC terms, tries to incapacitate him) before he can get a shot in. Now if the figure is so quick that Spider-Man can't do that (i.e. they have charge), then I can understand them getting in the first shot.

The way I see it is we've been spoiled with taking minimal risks when manuevering figures. The attack ranges of figures has become so ridiculous that the first strike is crucial and medics are imperative. There's very little positioning, and consequently very little strategy to the actual game, IMHO. It's a great game, but it can be much better.

[Wileyone]

The issue of Taxi and/or Medics is interesting but I'm still not sure why they are such an issue.

Medic cannot heal if an opponent is b2b with them. They also cannot heal target friendly figure if the target figure is adjacent to an opponent.

Perhaps, this seems to easy to me because I like to use swarm attacks with an action advantage. I also love long movements, leap/Climb and cheap figures. But, I can almost always prevent a person from healing. I'm not bragging, perhaps it's just in the characters I choose.

The ideas about Taxi are also interesting. Personally, I have read comics where Heroes are taxied into combat. I have often seen Rogue carry 1 or even 2 figures into combat. I know that they don't stick around for repeated taxi service but often they do fly in and rescue characters (including Heroes). This may not be a common strategy among all Hero groups, but I have seen it.

Whatever Wizkids does, I’m sure I’ll still be a fan. Also, I appreciate the candid interviews and all the effort Wizkids is putting toward their product.

Our opinions and thoughts can be fun to share but they can also be like the old saying: "Opinions can be like butts, we all got one and they all stink.” Not that it stops us, you just have to flush once in a while.

[drmood]

Originally posted by Wileyone
The ideas about Taxi are also interesting. Personally, I have read comics where Heroes are taxied into combat. I have often seen Rogue carry 1 or even 2 figures into combat. I know that they don't stick around for repeated taxi service but often they do fly in and rescue characters (including Heroes). This may not be a common strategy among all Hero groups, but I have seen it.


Figures carrying other figures is a good thing for the game, no doubt about it. It speeds things up, it's true to the comics, etc. The problem is really a timing issue. In a pure strategy game (i.e. chess) your opponent makes a move, you make a counter-move. HeroClix lets you perform multiple actions per turn, simulating a "slice of time" in a battle that has multiple fronts. Currently, the taxi feature makes the slice flawed, however, since you are in essence performing two separate time slices in one turn. At any one moment n a battle, the heroes move into position OR attack...not both. In the time it takes them to move into position, their opponent will counter the move somehow. The reason taxis are necessary in a competitive team, is that to give up the ability to perform two turns in one is too much of a handicap. If you were playing chess would you let your opponent perform two moves to your one?

[Fauntleroy]

My friends and I solve the taxi issue the firelord issue and the difference in figure usability with a draft/league system. Certainly it is for the more involved gamers but it has been really fun.

We set a season length and schedule (about 6 weeks or events with 2-4 games per person per week). We start the season with a draft where if you pick wolverine you get every version (including logans,LEs, and uniques). You can trade and there is a free agent bin of those that don't get picked so you can change some stuff during the season. We keep some simple stats and record win/loss record. We made up an injury system but it is not really necessary. At the end of the season we have a playoff and declare a winner.

This means that only one team has firelord and only one team has vulture and only one team has Black Panther. Cheap taxis is still a devastating strategy and Firelord is still a monster weapon but if everyone drafts reasonably well the strong characters are balanced out and it is the use of the weaker picks that really matter the most.

The biggest hurdle to this style of play is that you need to have most or all of the figs. Lucky for us the co-commisioner is a collecter and loves to play. I understand this suggestion is not for everyone but for those heavier gamers who want to stay interested in clix, you should try this. I would have lost interest in the game long before now if we hadn't altered it a bit. Pretty soon we are going to have a website to display the history of our league.

[delise]

Sorry, I couldn't let the bait go any longer.

Oh, as a side note: Do NOT give Kyle Rayner the GL team ability. I say this because Kyle should be strong enough that he should cost a whole lot of points WITHOUT this ability (Superman or higher), and since he never actually WAS a member of the Corp, he doesn't need this ability. Save it for some weak-### taxis like that Jordan punk.

Well you are right about one thing, Kyle is not a real team player. And he must always rely on his power, he's not smart enough without it. Not like the "all powerfull Hal" ! Who can do twice as much with half the effort.

All bow and pay tribute to the one and only true Green Lantern! Ala... whoops Hal Jordan!

( I like kyle too, I just think he is a little lower on the pecking order)