Last Night I got Firelord Cheesed...

[hudson20]

So last night my friend and I decided to play a friendly 200 point game. I fielded an xmen theme team.

My team:
http://www.hcrealms.com/cgi-bin/quickviewteam.cgi?teamname=xmen&username=hudson20&action=graphic

My friend decided that for a fun game he would field and all firelord team.

His Team:
www.hcrealms.com/cgi-bin/quickviewteam.cgi?teamname=tonysfirelordteam&username=hudson20&action=graphic

It's funny how the game worked because he seemed to find that the game was a lot more fun than I thought it was. Maybe it's because of the fact that my team never really had a chance.

The Game play went like this:
I had first turn and I cautiously walked cyclops out 4 spaces. That was all the opening my friend needed. On his turn he taxied the vet firelord with the exp firelord to the max range and took a shot at my cyclops. He rolled a 5 on his to hit roll. This hit cyclops despite his battle armor and the hindering terrain he was in. Cyclops was one click from dead. Next turn my friend could have pushed the vet firelord and that would have easily killed cyclops. I knew I had to do somthing. I had jean grey TK the professor out to the range where he could hit the vet firelord but the experienced firelords shot was blocked. (otherwise the exp firelord would have shot professor X on the next turn and the game would have been over after 2 turns) After being TKed out by jean grey the professor was somehow able to roll the 8 or better he needed to take control of the vet firelord through hindering terrain. He actually did take control and the vet firelord shot the exp firelord for five clicks of damage. Unfortunately, the next turn the exp firelord pushed and he flew both of them all the way back to the medic.(He still had a 7 or 8 movement even after 5 damage) My opponent healed the Exp firelord during the next turn. (Professor x certainly wasn't going o chase them 15 spaces away and climb up a building.) My opponent needed "not snake eyes" to heal his firelord and rolled it on the first try. Then he rolled a 5 on the healing dice. Suddenly all the damage that I had done so far that game was completely erased. On my turn I still had professor x out in the open and cyclops nearly dead. I chose to move cyclops to the medic and heal him for 2 clicks. That was my two actions. (missed leadership) The next turn my opponent took his nearly fully healed vet and his fully healed exp firelords out and just toasted professor x to within an inch of his life. On my turn I pushed to heal cyclops another two clicks. He took a shot at the vet firelord from where he was and missed. On my opponents next turns he pushed his firelords and killed cyclops. The rest of my team died in the next three turns and they never hit another attack.

Conclusion:
There wasn't a whole lot I did wrong here, but my character were just overmatched by firelords. In fact any characters I chose to play besides firelords would have been over matched. They is just too dam powerful. The was nothing I could do. There are things I can do against A firelord. But when you are going against 2 in a two hundred point game where you have none then you might as well just not play.

About me vs. my opponent
I'm not some newb, I've been playing strategy games for a long time and I know some statistics as well. The chance of me pulling out a win that game was incredialbly low. This was not because my opponent is some incrediably smart strategy guru. This was because my opponent is just smart enough to know a "broken" figure when he sees one. There was no grandiose scheme he hatched he just simply sent these figure out into battle without much thought and there was nothing I could to stop them.

What should wizkids do?
The last game I really got into was MTG(Magic the Gathering). That game had some broken cards in it similar to firelord. Every time wizards of the coast heard about one of these cards they restricted, banned, or errated the card. They did it lots of times and the game went on. Wizkids refuses to do this. Even with a huge amount of customers screaming for it. Doesn't it say somthing when he shows up in every tournament on every winning team. You don't need a high IQ to figure this out.

[Earnan]

Show me what data you are using to surmise that Firelord is on every winning team at every tournament. Show me that he NEEDS to be banned. Firelord has only once won a tournament here, and I was playing him. I used him as a high attack EE figure on an army designed to deal with R Invisible Girl armies.

The problem was, you were playing a theme team against a tournament level team. If you want to play for fun, make sure your opponent knows it :) You were fighting an uphill battle from the time you rolled the dice (personally, I think you may well have been better off pushing the Vet to move somewhere that he would be unsupported than just smashing the Exp, but that's really neither here nor there...). I understand that he is a powerful figure. He's something you need to plan for at any tournament. That's not a broken figure, that's the metagame. Sure enough, if the Firelord player goes up against team after team of anti-Firelord hate (wow, Magic jargon is spewing from my fingers...) they will stop playing him.

No one is calling for Rookie Invisible Girl to be banned. Frankly, I find her to be more 'broken' than Firelord. THe fact that she can make SEVERAL characters nearly impossible to hit is a lot worse than one slightly undercosted figure.

As for banning figures, WK has repeatedly said that they will not ban figures. They are not going to make it so that you get a figure and can't play with him.

WarlordEarnan

[bakija]

Hudson20 wrote:
>>What should wizkids do?
The last game I really got into was MTG(Magic the Gathering). That game had some broken cards in it similar to firelord.>>

Yeah, that Firelord. Probably the most incindiary (ahem...) topic on this BBS. Go to the search function, look for threads with Firelord in the title, and read all the old threads on the topic. Lots of your questions/concerns are discussed.

Suffice to say, there are plenty of folks who completely agree with you--that Firelord is too good and something should be done. Sadly, however, there isn't really anything good that can be done:

1. WizKids apparently has a policy of not banning any figures, which is certainly admirable, but makes it that much more necessary that they make sure everything works right the first time. Thus, Firelord won't be banned.

2. WizKids apparently has a "duplicates are necessary to allow everyone to use all the guys they purchase" policy which, again, is admirable, but results in no Firelord "restriction", or whatever.

3. WizKids apparently likes to keep errata to a bare minimum, which again, is admirable, and they seem to be very unwilling to open the "errata for game balance" floodgates, which is also admirable, so a price errata of Firelord seems unlikely (even when the lead game designer agrees that Firelord is probably too cheap...). Granted, Pyro and Riddler were errataed, but that was due to mis-printing. If only someone would find a document somewhere that would indicate that Firelord's RCE was a misprint...

4. WizKids is apparently perfectly willing to redo questionably designed figures (see: new Daredevil, Spiderman), but this can only really be used to upgrade weak figures rather than downgrade too powerful figures (see point 1 as to why this won't work).

This leaves us with hopes for Firelord repairs only in an oblique fashion. Changes to various rulings would help (like the "flying figures can still make ranged attacks when base to base with an opponent" ruling that seems to exist *only* to make Firelord more effective...), as would a fabled change to taxi rules (although there are few, if any ways to change the current taxi rules without creating far more problems than it solves), as would possibly a significant rules re-write (i.e. Heroclix MkII), but of these options, the only really likely one is ruling adjustments.

What to do in the mean time? Build teams that specifically address the strengths of Firelord (use cheap, strong ranged combat, taxis, and/or stealth). Granted, this leaves, like, 70% of the figures in the game out in the cold, but that is what we are stuck with.

-Peter

[bakija]

Earnan wrote:
>> No one is calling for Rookie Invisible Girl to be banned. Frankly, I find her to be more 'broken' than Firelord.>>

How? The game is already in a state where if you can't reliably hit a defense of 18, you are scrod (due to, say, Firelord being so prevelant). This means that most teams that are competetive revolve around units with an 11+ attack rating. With IG handing out 18 defense, all she is doing is making it that much more necessary to have an 11 attack (meaning you'll have a ~60% chance of hitting all of them).

>>THe fact that she can make SEVERAL characters nearly impossible to hit is a lot worse than one slightly undercosted figure.>>

But all her 18 defense does is mean that some of the most popular figures in the game (say, Firelord and Ultron) need to roll 5's to hit your tightly packed cluster of units with energy explosion, reducing IG's defense. If she takes 2 clicks of damage, her defense drops to 15, which is lower than average.

Sure, if she is surrounded by guys with deflection, se begins to look better (although, still, FL and Ultron only need to roll 7's to blow them all up), but that limits your figure selection considerably.

-Peter

[TheFallenOne]

Originally posted by Earnan
Show me what data you are using to surmise that Firelord is on every winning team at every tournament. Show me that he NEEDS to be banned. Firelord has only once won a tournament here, and I was playing him. I used him as a high attack EE figure on an army designed to deal with R Invisible Girl armies.

The problem was, you were playing a theme team against a tournament level team. If you want to play for fun, make sure your opponent knows it :) You were fighting an uphill battle from the time you rolled the dice (personally, I think you may well have been better off pushing the Vet to move somewhere that he would be unsupported than just smashing the Exp, but that's really neither here nor there...). I understand that he is a powerful figure. He's something you need to plan for at any tournament. That's not a broken figure, that's the metagame. Sure enough, if the Firelord player goes up against team after team of anti-Firelord hate (wow, Magic jargon is spewing from my fingers...) they will stop playing him.

No one is calling for Rookie Invisible Girl to be banned. Frankly, I find her to be more 'broken' than Firelord. THe fact that she can make SEVERAL characters nearly impossible to hit is a lot worse than one slightly undercosted figure.

As for banning figures, WK has repeatedly said that they will not ban figures. They are not going to make it so that you get a figure and can't play with him.

WarlordEarnan

if you dont think firelord is too powerful for his cost then you obviously arent playing against people who know how to use him.
nuff said. no further argument needed. bye the way what character could be construed as "anti firelord hate" in magic that meant your deck would shut down the offending deck. i cant think of any character who can shut down a firelord. if you know of him clue us all in would ya.

[SLAYER X]

I don't consider him, a huge threat. Firelord can't take many hits and he better not be pushed because he will lose his power ddue to his own actions. I deal with him in 2 ways-1. take advantage of the fact that he is under 100 points and 2. if your friends always use him bring 2 or 3 peoople with mind control. make him work for you to take out you enemy, and you won't have to take dame because of his point cost. You won't see him around much after that.

[raven2]

firelord is good piece but the team you were fielding only had one major offensive charecter (CYCLOPS) if you put together a team full of strong offensive charecters. cycops is not unfair because you have the right to use him also and their are alot of other strong figures. and if you wanted to maintain the x men team put in a u wolverine.

[Earnan]

Bakija-My point was about surrounding her with ES guys, and having them in hindering terrain. Hitting a 21 defense reliably is difficult.

I also said that I think she is more 'broken' than Firelord. I don't think wither one is, but I think that she is the worse of the two due to the style of team she ends up on.

TheFallenOne-I never implied that 1 character would shut him down. It will take a team to do it, but as Bakija pointed out you need to design a tournament team to deal with him anyway. Once he is dealt with, then gameplay in your area will open up, and people will play a greater variety of teams. In my experience, at least.

WarlordEarnan

[bakija]

Earnan wrote:
>>Bakija-My point was about surrounding her with ES guys, and having them in hindering terrain. Hitting a 21 defense reliably is difficult.>>

Sure--if you surround her with deflection characters in hindering terrain, you are in good shape, but then:

A) You are only using figures with deflection.
B) You are stuck in hindering terrain and not moving much.

Sure, setting up an incredibly defensive formation can he very difficult to deal with for your opposition, but this was the case before IG was created.

-Peter

[SLAYER X]

here is a figure I think can handle fire lord very well, the lord of apocolypse - DARKSEID. He has a good attack, mind control, imperevious, 3 damage and outwit. He has the tools to take him out. The plan be hind useing him is to let the oppponent move into your range. Use outwit to take awy his range combat expert since it has a range of 10 and when he moves close enough he will have to stop since he doesn't have running shot then you pouce. Mind control him to blast his own team and he will take a click for pushing. If I need to spell out where this scenario is going you need more help than I can give.

[Rogueslaw]

Firelord is strong but, he can be handled u just need to know your team and a lotof free movement. I take care of him easily by taxi my bullseye in range and trying to hit hm with a 11+. Prior to this I postion black cat or scarlt witch so they can give bullseye a better shot if he needs but, also in range to get a clear line of site on FL. Then once I hit I taxi in U Elektra and slice the boy open. Then with my final move I taxi in another b/c/f person to try and finish FL off if I need to. Yeah people will be left out in the open but, usually in a 300 point turney they won't have to much amno left after that and if tey have another FL u just have to push everyone again to KO him or push just enough to send him running to the medic. Then next round g FL hunting with everyone that didn't push or tag the medic he is running too. The great thing about this team is it works against petty much everyone.

[Mongoose]

With Firelord you need to keep in mind his reach w/ a taxi. Cyclops has more overall reach (Running shot and 10 range). You should have taxied Cyclops into the Firelod (Utilized leadership if you had it) shot at Firelod for as much damage as you could do (Regardless of whether you had to push Cyclops). Heck the V. version of Cyclops does 4 damage and has an 11 attack. In games with Medics I always try to kill the medic first. I find them to be annoying, and people love to run to them. I keep hearing about Firelord this and that. I can see that he is a damage dealer, but he has no real protection. Heck if anything just put a bunch of Bullseyes on the board. Now that is cheesy.

[Spy Master]

I agree with Earnan. Show the data to support his being abused in tourney's. In a local tourney here i used him in a 200 point tourney and won only one game , each went right to the wire. The opponent had abit of luckand good stragedy on his side.

All i am saying is that with the right tatics u can defeat any figure with any other figure.

Outwit , batman ally can be used effectively to either reduce or neutralize firelord, perplex and even hydra team figures can be used effectively to attack and defeat Firelord. and u can always use the firelord against him via mind control or using one of your own.

The team that i lost to had a pyro with 2 hydra members on it , giving him pryo a nasty boost in attacking , with a shield medic healing when necessary.

Anyway, i just figure that Wizkids doesnt want to ban, or restrict figures since the game is balanced . Banning and restricting isnt the answer folks , trying new and different stragedies is . He can be beaten , its just that since every one seems to be losing to him and ranting and raving about it it gets major thread time.

[PluralSams]

First: WHY FIRELORD AGAIN MUST RESIST URGE TO KILL ALL PLASTIC FORK JUGULAR RAWR VEINS IN MY TEETH BURNT BATTERED BODIES...

Secondly: Nightwing's pretty decent against FL.

Third: I agree with the Magic example. Maybe not "banned," per se, because we would have whining (as if we wouldn't otherwise) but I can see "Restricted" or "Ammended." Well, I can't "see" it, because WK prbly won't do anything about him, but heres another thing that just came into mind: After XP comes out, rotate IC out of the tourny block. No more IC figures useable in tournaments. CT and XP only. Has anyone else noticed that XP is also a smiley with his eyes shut and his tongue sticking out? XP XP XP... cool!

[Rogueslaw]

I really hope they don't do a block rotation for tournaments because that is the exact reason I quit playing magic. It got o the point no one wanted to play unless it was a type 2 block deck made for 1 on 1. The thing I love about this game is that u can still play a tournament against 4 people at one time or just one. Just know this as more figs come out, the more balanced the game gets and those people still playing with FL 5 sets down the road won't be winning as much because have te people that play with FL really don't know how to play different tatics other then headon.

[SingleJohn]

What you need to understand is Firelord was created when RCE was like a ranged BCF making Firelord's 3 damage almost a disadvantage because half the time you would deal as much or less than what you usually could. Then RCE changed and now we have Cheeselord. There isn't really a problem, after a few clicks Firelord isn't that great so try to take a few clicks.

[heroclixguru]

Firelord isn't all that. I've beaten many teams with him, and now the people around here that win tournaments usually don't have him anymore because Firelord can be beat. Players just need some creativity and skill to beat Firelord. I've played more than 40 tournaments and placed 85% of the time. Taken first the majority of the time.

I'd be willing to play online to prove it (maybe for an LE). I really don't care if they ban him or not. It seems silly.

[Comte]

I think the worst case of firelord cheese I've ever seen is when my room mate decided to use a firleord against someone who had never played before. I was acrost the room playing super smash brother and when I came over to see how the game was going I couldn't beleive what my room mate did to this kid. My room mates team consisted of a vet firelord an expe firelord, 2 wasps, and a slew of medics. The other kids team was a sinsiter six team. This was long before dr. octopus mind you. Anyway I got so angry with my room mate that I took the vet and exp firelord off the table and stomped on them till they were nothing but bronken little peices of plastic. When he tried to compain I commented that these are my figures, my map, my dice, and that is my freind you are screwing over. Ever since then my room mate hasn't played heroclix with us. No big loss in my opinion.

[Keleko]

Originally posted by heroclixguru
Firelord isn't all that. I've beaten many teams with him, and now the people around here that win tournaments usually don't have him anymore because Firelord can be beat. Players just need some creativity and skill to beat Firelord. I've played more than 40 tournaments and placed 85% of the time. Taken first the majority of the time.

I'd be willing to play online to prove it (maybe for an LE). I really don't care if they ban him or not. It seems silly.

Show us your team. What do you use to beat Firelord consistently? I've not really seen a lot of people offering that up. And, what team did the opponents build around Firelord?

[shin-goji]

I think this will say it all. :)Is Firelord Broken? (http://www.neomonsterisland.com/herolix/comic/001/001.html)

[TheFallenOne]

Originally posted by Earnan
Bakija-My point was about surrounding her with ES guys, and having them in hindering terrain. Hitting a 21 defense reliably is difficult.

I also said that I think she is more 'broken' than Firelord. I don't think wither one is, but I think that she is the worse of the two due to the style of team she ends up on.

TheFallenOne-I never implied that 1 character would shut him down. It will take a team to do it, but as Bakija pointed out you need to design a tournament team to deal with him anyway. Once he is dealt with, then gameplay in your area will open up, and people will play a greater variety of teams. In my experience, at least.

WarlordEarnan
you referred to "anti firelord hate" so why dont you fill us in and tell us what it is? what team consistently shuts down firelord and at the same time doesnt use him. I personally dont use the firelord unless ive handicapped myself in some other way (like playing a sentinel) but im hard pressed to find any way to take him out with relative ease.

[esfoad]

I'm not quite sure the major gripe or discussion here is properly directed. The initial post didn't seem to be a major complaint on Firelord himself (which many of the posters here seem to have thought and have based their responses in that manner). The real problem here appears to be the duplicate Firelord.

Firelord is nasty enough as it is. Two or more is just plain brutal and unbalanced. I don't want to rehash the old debate here (there are plenty on eihter side) but preventing the use of duplicate named figures (i.e. not generics), even if only in tourney play, would go a long way towards balance. It would eliminate the abuse of such overpowered figures as Firelord while not alienating those of us who don't wish to see Wizkids adopt the block rotation policy that MtG has.

I've quit playing MtG for numerous reasons (block rotation being one of them) and one of my main attractions to HC is that, if played like many of us do (without duplicates), you have to strategically and creatively build your team without "stacking your deck" with the maximum amount of dupe figures. I've only encountered a small handfull of players that play with uniques (and I do realize it's currently allowed in the rules) but the majority of my other games have almost always been balanced and well played. I (and many others I know and play with) will continue to love, enjoy, and play HC without dupes, regardless, But I know that we would enjoy it that much more when we don't stumble across the occasional player that does (or have to expect it when playing in a tourney).

[bakija]

Slayer X wrote:
>>here is a figure I think can handle fire lord very well, the lord of apocolypse - DARKSEID.>>

Sure, but Darkseid costs 151 points--50% more than V Firelord (and almost double E Firelord, who is widely regarded as the best version). Lots of figures are better than Firelord--they just cost lots more.

The point about Firelord is not that he is the most powerful figure in the game. It is that he is the most powerful figure in the game *relative to his cost*. If V Firelord cost, say, 140 points, he'd be fine, if even possibly weak.

Well, that, and Darkseid only ever has a 10 attack, giving him at best a 42% chance if hitting...

-Peter

[The Sandman]

How about this.

Errata on his points - Kind of a pain, no one can agree on how many points, here we go again with having to have a separate sheet to tell you what he's worth now, etc.

No Dupes - Little Tommy would have to buy more becuase he can't afford to buy lots of packs. Bad move for WizKids to tell people you have to buy more to play.

Possible Solution: No Firelord Dupes. Treat him like a Unique.

[bakija]

The Sandman wrote:
>> Errata on his points - Kind of a pain, no one can agree on how many points, here we go again with having to have a separate sheet to tell you what he's worth now, etc.>>

We already need a seperate sheet to know that E Pyro is Brotherhood, R Rogue doesn't actually fly, and Riddler has mastermind instead of shapeshift. And we already need 18 extra pages of rules so that we know how the game actually works. Is one extra scentence really going to make that much difference?

>>No Dupes - Little Tommy would have to buy more becuase he can't afford to buy lots of packs. Bad move for WizKids to tell people you have to buy more to play.>>

Eh. E Firelord is just as powerful singly as doubly.

>>Possible Solution: No Firelord Dupes. Treat him like a Unique.>>

Meh. If you are going to make a figure specific ruling/errata, better to simply actually fix the issue--increase his cost or remove RCE.

-Peter

[The Sandman]

I feel that if you increase his cost means their points equation is incorrect and who else should they redo. Remove his RCE and he then becomes an Overpriced character with a glass jaw. I think he is an excellent piece but is abused only when you can field clones. Treat him like a Unique and I think he's just fine then.

[hoshoko]

I vote leave him alone. If you don't play in tournaments, use whatever house rule you want. This seems to be the best solution.

[bakija]

The Sandman wrote:
>>I feel that if you increase his cost means their points equation is incorrect and who else should they redo.>>

I think it is pretty clear that the point equation is incorrect--look at E Firelord (81 points) vs V Cyclops (78 points); E Hawkeye (43 points) vs V Bullseye (43 points). Spiderman. Constrictor. Whatever. The point formula, as it is, doesn't result in equivelant figures having equivelant costs. Why? Could be plenty of reasons, but the end result is that it doesn't actually work as intended, in the sense that one 50 point figure should be just as effective as another 50 point figure, which simply isn't the case.

Sure, you could say that changing FL's cost would open up a sluce gate and everyone would want someone fixed. Or, they could just fix Firelord (who is clearly a significant issue) and leave everything else the same. The game would be much better for it.

>>Remove his RCE and he then becomes an Overpriced character with a glass jaw.>>

A) Ya think? 66 points gets you a flying figure with a 17 defense, 11 attack, 10 speed, 3 damage at 6 range, barrier, energy explosion, and *nine* clicks of life. 66 points. This strikes you as not a worthwhile unit? Sure, he drops off quickly, but he is still really good.

B) Even if removing his RCE made him the worst figure in the game, how would this be bad? Currently, he is incredibly game dominant. If he were removed from the equation (due to, say, making him suck), so many other useful figures would become worth playing. So many other strategies would open up. How is that bad?

>>Treat him like a Unique and I think he's just fine then.>>

But again, if you are going to make a figure specific ruling/erratta, wouldn't be better to simply actually fix the problem, rather than just slightly reduce it?

-Peter

[Orpheus]

Originally posted by SLAYER X
here is a figure I think can handle fire lord very well, the lord of apocolypse - DARKSEID. He has a good attack, mind control, imperevious, 3 damage and outwit. He has the tools to take him out. The plan be hind useing him is to let the oppponent move into your range. Use outwit to take awy his range combat expert since it has a range of 10 and when he moves close enough he will have to stop since he doesn't have running shot then you pouce. Mind control him to blast his own team and he will take a click for pushing. If I need to spell out where this scenario is going you need more help than I can give.

Sure, Darkseid is good. He can be, for 151 points. You'll have to surround him with cheaper useful figures in most points configurations, as you don't want to push him too much and lose Impervious. Waht will he do : strike for 3 through the armor ? Mind Control ? I'd rather have White Queen R + Batman E for about the same amount of points (but Darkseid is fun, of course ;we're not talking about fun here, though, but efficiency).
Firelord isn't really broken : I agree with the actual game conceptor to say that he's undercosted. I think 15 more points in each version would make him playable (would you play him or Vision ?). Rookie + Expert makes for 2 dreadful figures for only 147 points (less than Darkie). For 177 I'd say Darkie would have his chances. Right now he doesn't.

In France we usually play the important figures only once in a team (the heroes and villains ; this doesn't include Hydras et all). It diminishes the brokenness, but still FL can be found in many winning teams. He just has a great combination of abilities for a reduced cost, and although some characters are pretty much as "broken" (or not) as him now (White Queen R, Logan E or V, Nightcrawler etc.), FL is sure to end up in most good teams.

I agree with the assertion that it is not he that should / could be errated, but the possibility to shoot (or be shot at) flying characters ; or, if you can, you shouldn't be able to use RCE. Such a change in ruling wouldn't cost much to Wizkids, the news would spread fast enough, no figure would have to be thrown away, and FL would all of the sudden seem much more reasonnable.

If any combination should be possible with RCE IMHO, it should be Running Shot : the 2 figures to benefit from it, Cyclops and Hawkeye, wouldn't be broken, and would be maybe a little more useful (especially Hawkeye, who is pretty useless as is ; Cyclops is good already, but still more expensive than Bullseye and not much better). As a matter of fact, I think Running Shot should be usable with most other powers, as Barrier for instance (Blizzard wouldn't be anymore an expensive and less good Pyro or Avalanche).

Ok, that last part is more or less ranting, let's say I threw ideas in the way, just like that. Each can have opinions of these points, and share them of course, but let's not forget the main topic.

The main topic is FL, and as WK won't change his cost, for very understandable reasons, I really think the "no shooting at close for flyers" errata would make him back in the "very good but not broken" range.

Yours,

Orpheus

[Jawapimp]

i dont know how many of u have said it but dudes darkseid has 8 range not 10. trust me on this one, its his only weakness besides his 16 defense *ouch*:eek:

[norman]

Originally posted by Orpheus

The main topic is FL, and as WK won't change his cost, for very understandable reasons, I really think the "no shooting at close for flyers" errata would make him back in the "very good but not broken" range.


I agree.

Removing this line:
"Hovering: Hovering characters can attack or be attacked using ranged combat, even if the hovering character occupies a square adjacent to the attacker."
would go a long way in reducing the treat of firelord. And only affects 17 char (there are only 17 chars with flight and RCE in all 3 sets to date). It's only a minor change to the rules and could become official once the new set arrives. It's actually more simplified rulings compaired to what they already have, and simplifying the game is essential to bringing in new players.

Of those 17 char; 3 are Hobgoblin (which isn't a factor), 3 are DrStrange who still does 2 damage up close plus has Incapacitate up close, 3 are Steel who 2-3 damage and has super strength, 3 are Brainiac 13 who still does 2 has MC and Impervious. The only 2 others besides Cheeselord are Weather Wizard and Quasar who are both still effective while up close.

The point being is that flying units already have a large advantage and this ruling gives them another advantage. These figures still break away easily because they are flying plus a taxi to move them around could break them away for nothing if not in base (but that is just good strategy and that's the point). That way something like plasticity becomes a treat (using someone like sandman to tie up both FLs and he could effectively tie them up long enough to deal enough damage against the FLs).

[Spinebreaker]

TheFallenOne wrote :

>>>if you dont think firelord is too powerful for his cost then you obviously arent playing against people who know how to use him.
nuff said. no further argument needed.<<<

You gotta love that attitude.

"What I say is right, so there. I can never be wrong. Me and my freind Jim think Firelord is broken, so he is"

You are aware that many people DON'T think Firelord is broken??? and that they may think they are just as right as you??? Last time they actually asked about FL on the official site, the results were that 3 times as many people thought he fine than thought he was broken.

If you find Firelord a problem, then you don't know how to fight him. In skilled hands he can do good damage. It doesn't stop him being a glass-jawed liability. AND THE EASIEST 97 points in the game.

>>>i cant think of any character who can shut down a firelord. if you know of him clue us all in would ya.<<<

OK... Hit him with Bullseye, Firelord's defense is now so low a THUG can hit him on a roll of 6...
Hit him with cyclops, a THUG can now hit him on a roll of 5.
Mind control him and make him go away.
TK him to the other side of the board.
ANYONE with BCF makes short work of him.
Barriers work well...

Having a clue helps too

But unfortuneately most people prefer this tactic...

"Let's whinge and cry til someone makes the game easier for us"

[Jonus Albrecht]

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
TheFallenOne wrote :

>>>if you dont think firelord is too powerful for his cost then you obviously arent playing against people who know how to use him.
nuff said. no further argument needed.<<<

You gotta love that attitude.

"What I say is right, so there. I can never be wrong. Me and my freind Jim think Firelord is broken, so he is"

You are aware that many people DON'T think Firelord is broken??? and that they may think they are just as right as you??? Last time they actually asked about FL on the official site, the results were that 3 times as many people thought he fine than thought he was broken.

If you find Firelord a problem, then you don't know how to fight him. In skilled hands he can do good damage. It doesn't stop him being a glass-jawed liability. AND THE EASIEST 97 points in the game.

>>>i cant think of any character who can shut down a firelord. if you know of him clue us all in would ya.<<<

OK... Hit him with Bullseye, Firelord's defense is now so low a THUG can hit him on a roll of 6...
Hit him with cyclops, a THUG can now hit him on a roll of 5.
Mind control him and make him go away.
TK him to the other side of the board.
ANYONE with BCF makes short work of him.
Barriers work well...

Having a clue helps too

But unfortuneately most people prefer this tactic...

"Let's whinge and cry til someone makes the game easier for us"

Agreed.

[hoshoko]

This arguement will never end. But I agree with you whole-heartedly.

[grubby91]

Originally posted by PluralSams
I agree with the Magic example. Maybe not "banned," per se, because we would have whining (as if we wouldn't otherwise) but I can see "Restricted" or "Ammended." Well, I can't "see" it, because WK prbly won't do anything about him, but heres another thing that just came into mind: After XP comes out, rotate IC out of the tourny block. No more IC figures useable in tournaments. CT and XP only. Has anyone else noticed that XP is also a smiley with his eyes shut and his tongue sticking out? XP XP XP... cool!

This wouldnt work at all because how many figures would all us players be losing because a few people thinks one is *broken*????

Edit: i agree with spinebreaker