Can MOD outwit (Intergang copy) be used w/ RCE?

[Redleg]

Say I have Klaw and Doombot side by side. This is a mixed team and they are copying the Intergang team ability.

If Klaw uses outwit...can he use RCE?

In other words...is the higher value character treated as if he had outwit superpower or outwit team ability?

Sorry if this has been asked.

[HeroComplex]

The team ability actually grants the superpower Outwit. Klaw cannot Outwit a target and then use RCE on that same figure.

[Redleg]

Thanks for the quick response HC.

Here we go...

Annihilus carries Klaw around and wants to do a running shot.
He moves half his speed per RS rules. Can he outwit and then attack? Or is it considered 'interrupting' the RS move and thus illegal?

Also...Anni can outwit for Klaw's attack, correct? Since Anni is the character that actually gains outwit...

Thanks again

[T_Darksoul]

To answer your questions.

1 No. You cannot use Outwit in the middle of an action.

2. Yes.

[hoshoko]

Originally posted by HeroComplex
The team ability actually grants the superpower Outwit. Klaw cannot Outwit a target and then use RCE on that same figure.

What? That's a new one.... Why would there be that limitation? I understand no power can be used with the RCE action. But outwit isn't an action, and can be done anytime during your turn. The powers aren't used in conjunction to the RCE action. Hence, that would imply to me that outwit can be used.

Devil's advocate:
Given you can't outwit a character you're about to shot with RCE with the same character(see above). Using the same logic, a different figure like Black Panther outwits an opposing figure's invulnerability, and now Klaw attack's with RCE, then the opponent still has invulnerability, because they are used together. How would that be any different?

Back to my own opinion. That would be slightly silly. This is very interesting to me. I mean I know you are Herocomplex... so no dis-respect to you. I just want that ruling to be re-reviewed, because we play as close to the rules as possible, even when it is painful.

[HeroComplex]

FAQ, Ranged Combat Expert
The attacking player's other characters can effect the defending/targeted character, but the attacking character can't be the one using the other powers.This was one of the rulings made when the massive clarification of RCE's limitations were added to the FAQ oh so long ago. Black Panther can Outwit before you use CCE/RCE, but the figure who actually plans to use those powers cannot.

[AdamWarlock]

superman enemies and other team members mimicking superman enemies can't gain/use outwit with it and then use a different damage special ability such as RCE. This is because, when one of these figures gains outwit, the outwit goes into effect "over" whatever their printed damage ability may be. Outwit is not the team ability; GAINING outwit is. A figure can't have 2 abilities on the same area of its dial at any single time. If Klaw wants to become Superman enemy and gains outwit from it, then wants to use rce, he'd have to declare himself "no longer superman enemy" so that the outwit would clear away and his rce would be active again.

This is entirely different from having a second figure outwit and then have klaw blast the target of that outwit separately. There, the outwit & attack combo is done by 2 separate figures with different damage abilities, which is all the matter here is about.

[UltraMANOS]

Well Tell me this herocomplex, I am aware that you can't use any powers while using RCE, BUT the superman enemy team ability is not a power, it's an ability activated by having 2 Superman enemy agents adjacent. The same way Enhancement is a power and Shield team ability grants enhancement due to the team ability. wouldn't the same go for The Superman enemy team ability being mimicked by a MOD also using RCE?

[HeroComplex]

The Superman Enemy ability's Outwit does not remove any existing superpowers from the damage slot. This is one of the few instances outside of scenarios where a figure may have more than one power belonging to the same slot, in fact.

Among other reasons why this ruling had to be made, imagine the horror that this would wreak in regards to Battle Fury.

[hoshoko]

Ah, thanks I missed that sentence in the FAQ. That isn't too bad, or silly. Sorry, if I sounded rude before. I just stopped smoking. LOL. I understand know.... thanks again.

[hoshoko]

Originally posted by UltraMANOS
Well Tell me this herocomplex, I am aware that you can't use any powers while using RCE, BUT the superman enemy team ability is not a power, it's an ability activated by having 2 Superman enemy agents adjacent. The same way Enhancement is a power and Shield team ability grants enhancement due to the team ability. wouldn't the same go for The Superman enemy team ability being mimicked by a MOD also using RCE?

Hey Herocomplex, let me try this one....


Superman Enemy: If two Superman Enemies are adjacent, the figure with the highest point value has the Outwit super power. If that figure already has Outwit, this special ability does not work.

The team ability grants the "outwit" super power to the figure.... so it is a power and can't be used in conjunction with RCE.

[HeroComplex]

EDIT: I see it's answered, but I put effort into this post, so I'm going to submit it anyway. It has this nice stream of consciousness thing going for it.

UltraMANOS, that's the question that began the thread, really, but the Outwit granted by the Superman Enemy ability is a bonafide superpower. To reference the FAQ:The ability grants the Outwit power, so if the above conditions are met, it would be possible for an opposing character to Outwit this newly granted Outwit power.SHIELD and Enhancement have very similar texts, but are not the same even aside from the fact that only one requires an action. One is a superpower and the other is a team ability; neither of them grants the other. Batman Ally and Stealth have very similar texts, possibly identical, but they are not the same. One of them is a team ability, the other is a superpower; neither grants the other, and only one of them is even potentially Outwittable.

This wouldn't be an issue if the Superman Enemy ability said that "this figure may turn off one superpower on each of your turns" and proceeded to recite the various rules that are normally attributed to Outwit. But it doesn't do that. Instead it says that the figure has the Outwit superpower, and therefore the Outwit granted by the Superman Enemy team ability is not a team ability itself, but only a superpower.

[hoshoko]

I knew you were going to answer or in the middle of answering... dude you're like a machine.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by AdamWarlock
This is because, when one of these figures gains outwit, the outwit goes into effect "over" whatever their printed damage ability may be. Outwit is not the team ability; GAINING outwit is. A figure can't have 2 abilities on the same area of its dial at any single time. If Klaw wants to become Superman enemy and gains outwit from it, then wants to use rce, he'd have to declare himself "no longer superman enemy" so that the outwit would clear away and his rce would be active again.

Adam, you are mistaken about this. You can have both RCE and Outwit (via Superman Enemy ability) at the same time... that figure can't use both Outwit and RCE on the same target. You can use Outwit one one figure and then use RCE on a second target.

Outwit is not "on" Kang's dial, he was granted the power via the team ability, so it doesn't go into effect "over" RCE. Kang can still use RCE anytime he wants, as long as he doesn't Outwit that same target.

[hoshoko]

It make's Batman and Nightwing a little less powerful. The key word is only a little less powerful. I don't know how many times I've seen this happen:

Nightwing outwit's the Swamp Thing's Impervious and then attacks for 3 damage. And no one I played ever caught this. Now it would only be "1" or none. Yay!!

[HeroComplex]

Hoshoko, the limitation is on using RCE/CCE, not on attacking in general. Sorry, bud.

[UltraMANOS]

good job hercomplex!, thanks again for the much appreciated and in depth answer

[HeroComplex]

*breathes heavily*

Whew.

*pours water on head as he jogs by the posters on the sidelines*

Gotta keep running.

*pants*

*goes to get pie*

[hoshoko]

Originally posted by HeroComplex
Hoshoko, the limitation is on using RCE/CCE, not on attacking in general. Sorry, bud.
Oh yeah.... umm what the heck was I thinking.... doh, good thing my judge status was retired. Actually I'm thinking of cigarettes. I feel like a donkey's a$$. Thanks again.

[Redleg]

HC...you're helping me make the most of my mixed tourney cheesefest team.

[Redleg]

Same scenario:

An I apologize to those allergic to cheese. I'm looking at avenging myself at a local tourney and this garbage was similar to what was being fielded.

Anni and Klaw side by side. Anni outwits a target's Invuln. Bullseye fires at that target and drops him to Toughness. We all know that Toughness is now in effect since Invuln was the power outwitted.

What happens if Anni switches to Hydra team to boost up Klaw's attack (thus losing outwit) AND then AFTER Klaw's attack they both switch back to Superman Enemy (gaining outwit). Could outwit be used to remove Toughness from Bullseye's original target?

Cheesy? Oh yeah. But I'm not certain anything in the rules specifically say you can't do this...but then again...I could be wrong.

[HeroComplex]

Doesn't quite work, nope. The Outwit power may be used by a character who possesses it once in every one of your turns. The second time Annihilus gets the Outwit power, he still remembers having used it previously, and having already expended his once-per-turn use he can't start a new Outwit.