Superman's damage...

[weezer_10]

Now I'm a hardcore Superman fan, I've loved the guy since I was a little Kryptonian, and while I think the Heroclix interpretation of the Man of Steel is great, it's missing something... well... it needs something more...

HE NEEDS MORE DAMAGE!!!

I've seen some of the big hitters in the Marvel line-up (Thor, Hulk, Thing, Hercules, etc, etc), and the most damage they can do in one succesful attack is 4 or 5 clicks of damage. Ya dig?!? 4 or 5 clicks of damage!

This is the most powerful character the DC universe we're talking about. He does a measley 3 clicks of damage; the same as Batman for Pete's sake, and while I love Batman also, he's just a hardcore human being without any super powers.

In the Marvel vs. DC crossovers, Superman went head-to-head with the Incredible Hulk and came out on top on all occasions (that I'm aware of anyway).

Yet in Heroclix, he can only manage 3 clicks of damage without an object in hand.

I would have made Superman with at least 4 clicks of damage, just to be on par with the Hulk.

Any other Superman fans out there feel the same way?

[hoshoko]

My friend complains about it once in a while. His quotes:

R Superman can't break a wall, but R Batman can?


Um, that might be an wrong..... to add injury to insult:
Sup Rook cost 155
Batman Rook cost 85.....

[Wyldstaar]

On the accuracy scale, sure Supes is capable of delivering more damage that he currently does. Nevertheless, I'm happy with him as he is now. Here's why-

1- Superman always holds back for fear of seriously hurting someone with few exceptions.

2- If he were to have much more damage than 3 he wouldn't be very playable. He's barely playable now as it is.

3- A Supes figure that was as close as possible to being accurate would be waaaaay too expensive on points to be playable in typical gameplay. He'd need Hypersonic Attack, Super Strength, Impervious, at least 5 damage. Movement, Attack, and Defense stats would be very high as well. Don't forget the ranged attack of 10, since he can shoot as far as he can see. They've already stated that the ranged limit will be 10. For this example we'll say he has no Leadership since the figure will be too expensive to have support figures anyway. I don't have one of the spreadsheets cooked up in the Artisans Guild forum, but I'm sure the point total would come in at least 400 points, maybe even 500.

[discombobulous]

My feeling on Superman was that it should be his final click where his stats jump. Defense and movement would remain the same, however attack would be at about 8 (Vet & OWAW versions), damage would spike to 4, and he'd get charge. Why? He's almost dead so he goes into desperation mode, just like when Doomsday and he killed each other.

I figure that the Rookie & Experienced versions should get the same treatment, only with their damage going to 3 and attack going to 7.

[weezer_10]

Well perhaps if they removed the Force Blast power and compensated it with 4 clicks of damage (3 on the Rookie version)to start, then I reckon Supes would still be playable.

[Mjolnir]

That Big Red S stands for(pick one):
Shafted?
Sissy?
Simp?
If I've got 200 points to spend on one fig....it's gonna be.........
either Doctor Doom, Veteran or(more probably)......
Veteran Thor!!!

official Wizkids complaints:
1)Nightcrawler a unique!!! aaaaaaaaauuuuuuggggggghhhhhh!!!!
2)Green Arrow! Green Lanterns!!!! too many more to list.
3)Where's Namor and the Silver Surfer?!?!?!?!?!??!!?

[DoomsDay74]

Superman should defintley hit for 5 Damage on his veteran version. I also think his defense should be an 18 impervious with Hypersonic speed but his point total should be raised close to 300. Doomsday should also have his stats raised to match. However Doomsdays stats should get bigger down the dial for this reason ...... Doomsday evolves so fast that during a fight he becomes stronger and more indestructable. I guess the game designer that did his stats never read those comics. Or maybe they like Marvel better and thats why Thor , She-Hulk, Super Skrull, Thing, and Blastaar all hit for more then Supes.

[Grinner]

I won't even get into 4's & 5's. But the idea that just about every Superman can't break through a wall for half of his dial is just wrong.

Without an object rookie & unique can only break through a wall on 3 clicks, meaning 2/3 of the time they can't. Vet & OWAW are better (6 out of 11), but still nearly 1/2 of the time a wall beats Superman. Only the experienced Superman has better odds (6 out of 10 or 40%), but still...

[sniksder]

Anothre thing that i think seems to be wrong is his movement...

U Flash gets 20...and Supes only gets 10...the last time that i remember iin the comics Superman beat flash in a race(i knowit wasnt the U Flash on but Wally West instead )

If he can move at hypersonic speed then he should move more than 10 at a time...

[drhypnotic]

Poor Juggernaught too! HE is supposed to be indestructible. I'm sure they will fix a lot of characters in upcoming sets.

[JacinB]

I worked up a Superman as I would have made him and he came out to be right at 300pts.

11 clix of life
Flight, Superman team ability, 10 range with two targets
14 movement that drops slowly to 10, with 4 clix of Hypersonic, then 4 of Charge, then 3 of Flurry.
11 attack that drops to 9 with SuperStrength all the way down.
18 defense with Impervious that slowly drops to 15 defense (it's still 16 on his next-to-last click) with Invulnerability.
5 Damage that drops to 4 with no modifiers.

He'd be truer to the character (in my opinion, at least), a nightmare to try to take down ... but he'd still only truly be playable in massive games.

[lukebuchanan]

that sounds about right but he'd be worth almost 300 points, which would be cool but some would never go for it. And this guy is the ultimate victim of leadership on the vet. version.

LUKE SMASH

[Scavenger4]

Originally posted by weezer_10
I would have made Superman with at least 4 clicks of damage, just to be on par with the Hulk.

sure then lets make hulk fly and give him a range so he can be on par with supes, also lets start him out with his good stats and not in bruce banner mode where you can get offa few easy shots.


this is why you can't compare universes with each other (DC and marvel) while i don't read many superman comics i'm pretty sure he wasn't known as the guy who walked around just smashing things, hes known for his super powers

[goku!]

The point that the two games, DC and Marvel, are supposed to be separate is well taken, but the two are also supposed to be compatible, right? Presumably the same thought processes go into making the dials. The only explanation that seems somewhat reasonable is that DC got a lot of powers and Marvel got raw numbers.

Having said that, it is true that Supes got shafted because he can't bust up a wall. Within DC itself, Supes can deal more damage than Batman any day of the week and twice as much on Sunday.

As a side note, damage is not correlated to whether or not you think before you smash, just whether or not you can smash, i.e. Hulk and Supes are better than Batman in that arena.

[Ghost_Rider]

I can foresee multiple versions of Superman in Heroclix, just like Wolverine, Spiderman, etc.

Ghost

[Doomtoy]

Well, technically, if you wanna be picky about it, Rookie Superman shouldn't have flying.

Originally, he didn't fly. He just jumped over tall buildings in a single bound. And "nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin!" To me, that spells Invulnerable, not Imperviousness.

...but, then, much of what we think about Superman was shaped by the Mort Weisinger years at DC, during which Superman could push planets around if he felt like it.

...but I'm pretty sure that even the original Siegel/Shuster Superman could have punched a hole through a brick wall if he'd really needed to.

[JerryReedStyle]

Originally posted by weezer_10
Now I'm a hardcore Superman fan, I've loved the guy since I was a little Kryptonian, and while I think the Heroclix interpretation of the Man of Steel is great, it's missing something... well... it needs something more...

HE NEEDS MORE DAMAGE!!!

I've seen some of the big hitters in the Marvel line-up (Thor, Hulk, Thing, Hercules, etc, etc), and the most damage they can do in one succesful attack is 4 or 5 clicks of damage. Ya dig?!? 4 or 5 clicks of damage!

This is the most powerful character the DC universe we're talking about. He does a measley 3 clicks of damage; the same as Batman for Pete's sake, and while I love Batman also, he's just a hardcore human being without any super powers.

In the Marvel vs. DC crossovers, Superman went head-to-head with the Incredible Hulk and came out on top on all occasions (that I'm aware of anyway).

Yet in Heroclix, he can only manage 3 clicks of damage without an object in hand.

I would have made Superman with at least 4 clicks of damage, just to be on par with the Hulk.

Any other Superman fans out there feel the same way?

I think you could argue whether or not Supes is the most powerful character in DC. I've always felt Martian Manhunter could challenge him. Possibly even Green Lantern. And Doomsday might have something to say about it also. ;)

[Spidersense]

I think the bottom line is the fact that R Superman should have at least one click of 3 damage. That is the only problem I have with him. The Vet Leadership all the way down the dial is a big question mark in my head too.

[goku!]

It's always possible to beat Superman. Batman can do it, but that doesn't make him more powerful than Supes. I think the same argument goes for Martian Manhunter, GL and company. Those guys are really freakin' powerful, but more powerful than Supes? Nope. Doomsday's probably just as strong. Nobody could take him down... except Superman.

The thing about Supes is that he could snap a guy's neck before he took his next breath. The cool thing about him, the thing that makes him Superman, is that he gives people the benefit of the doubt, when he could just act first, ask questions later.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Doomtoy
Well, technically, if you wanna be picky about it, Rookie Superman shouldn't have flying.

Originally, he didn't fly. He just jumped over tall buildings in a single bound. And "nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin!" To me, that spells Invulnerable, not Imperviousness.

...but, then, much of what we think about Superman was shaped by the Mort Weisinger years at DC, during which Superman could push planets around if he felt like it.

...but I'm pretty sure that even the original Siegel/Shuster Superman could have punched a hole through a brick wall if he'd really needed to.

If we had a pre-Crisis Golden Age/Earth 2 rookie Superman ;) Personally I'd get a kick out of that. And I'd still argue that he needs some clicks of 3 damage :p

Of course then we had the Silver Age/Earth 1 Superman who had his uber-powers (fast enough to travel through time, strong enough to move planets) as a teenager. And yes, as a Legion fan I would love to see a pre-Crisis Superboy but I know we'll never see it.

Finally we have our current post-Crisis Superman who was flying before he even became Superman, and who was regularly breaking through walls in the Man of Steel mini-series that launched him.

And yes, there are days I think that I have way too much comic book trivia locked away in my brain:p

[Ghost_Rider]

But really, do you see Superman going around busting walls in comics? I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to do it, but he doesn't like wrecking property. He would never purposely bust up a shopping mall. Not to mention, he holds back his strength a lot. So I can see why he was made the way he was.

Ghost

[DTM]

Kal El, DEFINATELY got the shaft when youre talking Damage. The first set was good, you gave 4 damage only to a very select few, and in a very limited amount, to such characters as Juggernaut, Hulk, and Hercules. But then CT comes out, and you give it to Thor, which he should DEFINATELY have of course, but why characters like Thing and She Hulk, and why for so long? I mean, this is SUPERMAN were talking about, he could take on Thing AND She Hulk at once, but in this game, primarily due to his less than Kryptonian Strength, hed have a hard time taking one. Im not saying he deserves a 5, I like that only the Hulk now has a true 5 (though Doomsdays Vet should have had one as well), but surely Superman deserves some 4s, at least as much as The Thing, who hes MUCH stronger than in the comics. And not giving him a single 3 in his Rookie is CRAZY. Boost up his Damage, and you got a really good HC for the Man of Steel. Oh, and I like that idea of him Spiking again on his last click, to really represent him going all out in a last ditch attack.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider
But really, do you see Superman going around busting walls in comics?

Not all the time, but do you really see Superman going around doing nothing to an armored foe in the comics? Remember, it's not just breaking through walls that requires a 3 damage - it's doing damage to an Invulnerable/Impervious character.

[Ghost_Rider]

True. I'm sure there will be multiple versions of Superman however. He is just so jam packed with abilities that to make an accurate version with all of them, he would probably end up being around 500 points.

Ghost

[A_Higher_Level]

I definitely know the cheap U Superman shouldn't be a flying character. He was too weak to even do that when he first came back from death. And 3 damage sounds about right... Yes, he was strong, but he always held back his strength when fighting others cause he never wanted to hurt them. They should simply add to the Superman Team ability that any attempt to break an object or wall is automatic.

[Ghost_Rider]

Hey, that's a cool idea about the Superman team being able to break walls. You may have something there! Wizkids hope you are listening. :)

Ghost

[stinger23]

In my opinion the Unique Superman was done wrong. He should get stronger down his click just like the Hulk to represent his powers slowly returning after his death. Also I wouldn't mind a unique Superman from the storyline shortly thereafter where his powers were out of control and Parasite had to drain them. He would be insanely expensive but fun to play. I only really have a problem with Thor being cheaper than Supes but more powerful. I don't mind Thor being a strong clik I just think he should cost at least as much as Superman.

[Veggiehater]

Originally posted by A_Higher_Level
Yes, he was strong, but he always held back his strength when fighting others cause he never wanted to hurt them. They should simply add to the Superman Team ability that any attempt to break an object or wall is automatic.

Note: I'm not disagreeing with A Higher Level's post but I just have to comment on something.

I really don't buy into this "holding back" translates into giving a character a lower damage value nonsense. Sure Superman would never rip a guys head of even if he is perfectly capable of doing so, but still.

Superman would never hold back against the likes of Brainiac 13, Darkseid, Solomon Grundy or Doomsday yet he can't touch them in Clix.

Superman also would never swoop in and slam a dumpster on a poor guy in a jump suit, yet he does in clix, I wouldn't call that holding back.

Besides characters don't kill each other in HC, the just "KO" their opponents. I don't think Supes or Spidey would have any second thoughts in exerting the proper amount of power to KO a guy outright.

So with this in mind let's look at the clicks of "consciousness" of a common HC grunt. The average is 4 clicks. So I don't see why Supes wouldn't "deal 3 damage" to them.

But anyway it's way too late to change things now. Hopefully GR is right and they do make new, more accurate, versions of The Man of Tomorrow.

Give him the 3 damage + CCE he rightly deserves!
VH

[shadowfox]

REGARDLESS OF EVERYONES ARGUEMENTS, FOR SUPERMAN'S POINT PRICE HE IS JIPPED. HE IS SUPERMAN....KNOWN FOR HIS SUPER STRENGTH, FOR HIM ONLY TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A 3 DAMAGE IS ABSURD. IF A REGULAR HUMAN....SAY LIKE BATMAN, CAN LAND A 3 DAMAGE. SHOULDN'T SUPES BE ABLE TO DUKE OUT MORE DAMAGET THAN THAT. ALSO, SUPES HAS GOT TO BE ONE OF THE, IF NOT THE STRONGEST CHARACTERS IN DC UNIVERSE...JUST LIKE HULK IS STRONGEST IN MARVEL'S UNIVERSE. WITH THAT IN MIND, SUPERMAN VETERAN SHOULD BE ABLE TO LAND SOME 4-5 CLIK DAMAGE. HE SHOULD AT LEAST HAVE ONE OF EACH, AND THATS AT A MINIMUM.
FOR YOU WHO ARGUE AGAINST THAT, THINK ABOUT THIS....IF SUPERMAN CAN HIT AN METEOR, OR MOVE AN ASTEROID, SHOULDNT HE HAVE SOME 4-5 CLICK DAMAGE.

[Veggiehater]

Shadowfox,

While I generally agree with what you said, you didn't have to SHOUT you know...

My eyes are still sore from reading that...

VH

[CyberVenom]

Dude........calm down. :D

[The Sandman]

A_Higher_Level, I think the flying is actually accurate. He himself couldn't fly, but (like Iron Man or Booster Gold) I believe his black suit enabled him to.

Veggiehater, totally agree with you, the holding back stuff is nonsense. Also, just as you said, hopefully, the next version(s) will be more accurate.

[Batman1983]

I've got a 250pt supes that works well. hes not perfect but hes better than OWAW & more probable. I'll post him if any one is interested, then I'll post my redo since the 250 is a little off (supes should have CCE, but not RCE just good base damage at a range).

[A_Higher_Level]

It's kinda amazing how that scientific company could make a suit for Superman for any situation in about 3 minutes. And it always had the 'S' in the right spot too. A suit for Kryptonite radiation, a suit for extended space travel, a even a suit that kept his electrons from leaking out when he turned into that living energy thing after his return from death. Like it was just lying around. Years of research completed beforhand, but they simply had no one that could use it till now. And it would even change with him as he changed forms! NOW HOW CONVENIENT IS THAT!!!

[SLAYER X]

I am a huge Superman fanatic, I like the way they made him but I thought well some people think he should be more accurate so I did this. I am happy with the way they made him already and don't think they need to make anymore but I thought it would be fun to try to make a figure that was more accurate to way way he was when he was able to move planets and could not be beaten by anyone ever.

speed 15 HSS
attack 15 SS
defence 19 impervious
damage 5 RCE/CCE
range 12 (apparently phoenix has that range)

[KaraZorEl]

I say loose leadership, loose force blast, and up damage.
I can be in the form of RCE or CCE I'd be ok with that.
BANE!and Doomsday can each do 5 clikcs of Damage.
That's just not right.

I have high hopes that superman will be imporved upon with
many new versions much like Spiderman.

[The Sandman]

A_Higher_Level you made me chuckle. Isn't that always the case though? Why doesn't Iron Man give a couple of "weak" Avengers his extra suits, when battling Ultron or Hulk.

Seriously though, I believe it was a Kryptonian suit.

[stinger23]

If I remember correctly the Eradicator put him in the black suit after he stole his body. It was supposed to help facilitate his recharging or something like that. And he couldn't fly at first, he had to be carried to the fight.

[The Sandman]

stinger23, you may be right, it's been a while since I read those. Either way, at some point in the black suit, he was able to fly. If you argue that he couldn't when he first put it on, then it should probably be Unique Coma Superman - Speed - 0.

[SniperCyclops]

If I designed Superman:

10 range, Superman team, flying


16 14 13 12 12 11 10 9 8 8 6 x
13 12 12 12 11 10 10 9 9 9 7 x
18 17 17 16 19 18 17 16 14 13 12 x
5 5 4 4 4 4 3 3 2 2 2 x

Speed would start with hypersonic for 4 cliks, charge for another 4, and force blast for the last 3.
Attack would be super-strength for 8 cliks total.
Defense would be impervious for 4 cliks, and toughness for the next four.

total of 295 points

[Ghost_Rider]

See this is the reason why Superman is the way he is. Nearly 300 points with 5 damage and hypersonic speed 15 and a range of 10????? There would be absolutely no way to take him down. Now we are getting a bit ridiculous.

Ghost

[DTM]

Nice stats, though I do think alittle too powerful, even for a Veteran Man of Steel.

Hey, whats with DC and the lowering and then raising of their characters Defense Values as they lose their primary body armor, and gain their secondary?? Do they become faster, tougher, more elusive, or just generally harder to hit as they get weaker? Why doesnt WK just give the DC characters higher DVs to begin with (cause face it, as far as numbers go, the DC guys DVs aint nothing to write home about......Supes and Doomsday with 16 as a Vet, but Dr. Doom has an 18??) and just let them go down normally as they take damage.

[stinger23]

I think DC stats are lower than marvel because they did not want the sets to be able to techniquelly be played together. Within a straight DC game the stats work for the most part(Superman is still too low and Bane's damage is still too high). But when you mix the two Marvel(in my opinion) has the advantage. You can get more good marvel characters for the same points cost of DC. The fact that Thor is as powerful if not more powerful than Superman and costs less is insane. And Nightcrawler having a higher movement than the regular Flash is wrong. Just my two cents.

[Clark-br]

OK, let's be honest. Bane can do 5 damage, Superman can't. R Batman can damage someone with Invulnerability, R Superman can't, so Superman is not good enough even for DC alone. About playabiity; WK can make a Unique Supes about 250-300 points who will be closer to the comics version. On a last note Heroclix is supposed to represents the comic book heroes, not the "more playable heroes". So it will be almost impossible take Superman down? Great! This is the way he was created! He cannot be defeated if you do not use something like Kryptonite or magic (outwit), so I hope WK is reading this and someday they make a Superman worthy this name.

[clandestine400]

This is the way I see it. He can't do more than 3 damage on a single click, except for a few clicks on some versions without Leadership where he has close combat expert. But he has a lot of clicks and he never drops below 2, so if you add it all up, throughout the whole dial he can do quite a bit of damage, unlike most of the other characters mentioned who have fewer clicks of life and whose damage will drop off, or in Hulk's case he starts off weak.

[D. Byers]

Hey,
There IS a Superman figure with Hypersonic Speed, you know. I ordered it from Wizard. Worlds At War Superman, anyone? Anyone?

[jolt]

In our games, we said that anyone who has Super Strength can always knock down a wall regardless of what their damage value is.

The rules for knocking down walls were created in the IC era when stats were higher. As a result of the decision to lower stats and "up" powers you had the weird situation that some characters who should have been able to knock through walls, couldn't. I think it's too simplistic to use damage as the only determiner for destroying walls and objects, especially when Super Strength is so appropriate.

jolt

[A_Higher_Level]

And you know what else I don't understand...?

Why in the world would a 236pt rated character have LEADERSHIP?!?

C'mon!!! As if you can fit enough characters on your team to warrant needing another action. *Well, it's a 300pt game, and I have the LE Superman and U Wolverine. Thankfully, this turn I made a successful roll for Leadership so now I have 4 instead of 3 actions. I think I'm going to... to... to... use 2 now and use the other 2 to clear them all in the same turn. Yeah! That's the ticket!!!*

[A_Higher_Level]

Originally posted by jolt
In our games, we said that anyone who has Super Strength can always knock down a wall regardless of what their damage value is.

jolt

I like that rule. In ours we gave all objects 3 clix of health. So one guy can target it for one damage, and another guy can target it for 2, and it would be destroyed. Or 3 people can target it for 1 click of damage each for the same effect.

[DTM]

Well, I do like the fact that Superman has Leadership, he IS the primary leader in the entire DC Universe. BUT, I agree not nearly for his entire length, for the same reason I dont want it for Captain Americas entire length, it would take away from other abilities that that character should also have. Sure a Superman with that high a point value would really never use Leadership, but Superman the character definately does have it, so I say leave it in, just cut it down severely so hes not wasting precious Damage spaces for something he could better use.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by DTM
Hey, whats with DC and the lowering and then raising of their characters Defense Values as they lose their primary body armor, and gain their secondary??

Actually, the 'toughness bump' (a figure's defense going up when they go down to toughness) has been around since IC. Just take a look at Juggernaut. Granted it doesn't go up to better than his starting click, but it does go up from the previous clicks.

[DTM]

Well, ok, I guess I can see that. But Marvel at least starts out with Higher DVs, worthy of the characters that should have them. 16 is just average DV, no matter who you talk to, and Superman, Doomsday and Darkseid should certainly have better than average, especially since powers are so easy to Outwit these days, then all you have left is your numbers.

[JacinB]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider
See this is the reason why Superman is the way he is. Nearly 300 points with 5 damage and hypersonic speed 15 and a range of 10????? There would be absolutely no way to take him down. Now we are getting a bit ridiculous.

Ghost

Yes, but you'd have a lot more figures to try with that Supes' team would have.

Supes vs. 300pts worth of other figures should be about a fair fight according to the comics.

And, don't forget his Impervious 18 defense. :)

[Ghost_Rider]

Originally posted by JacinB


Yes, but you'd have a lot more figures to try with that Supes' team would have.

Supes vs. 300pts worth of other figures should be about a fair fight according to the comics.

And, don't forget his Impervious 18 defense. :)

I understand fair fights, but that Superman would always win. With the hypersonic speed, he would run in, hit someone for five, then run away. He would be untouchable. That isn't very fair is it?

Ghost

[webhead817]

If you want him to have Impervious/18 defense, give him the desk to carry around.

[DTM]

I dont think Superman should do 5 damage, least not a natural 5, but we should definately be seeing some 4s on him, especially in his Veteran form. This is SUPERMAN, the most popular and greatest comic book hero of all time. He needs to be able to stand above other lesser powerhouses as She Hulk and Thing. Im not even talking HSS or Flurry or anything like that, I like him having Charge really. But his Damage is just too low for the most powerful hero DC has, plain and simple. And that low starting DV, dont get me started......

[A_Higher_Level]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider


I understand fair fights, but that Superman would always win. With the hypersonic speed, he would run in, hit someone for five, then run away. He would be untouchable. That isn't very fair is it?

Yeah, but sooner or later he'd have to push to get further away or get zapped a couple times from RCEs and taxied CCEs.

[webhead817]

theoretically, on an outdoor map, a flyer with hypersonic should never be hovering at the end of a turn, negating the usefulness of grounded figures without decent range.

[Eric Qel-Droma]

I got so sick of never being able to use Superman that I popped my Exp. Thor's base off and stuck it on a Rookie Superman's base. I figured that the addition of the Superman team was a relatively fair exchange for 11 pts. (Not exact, I know, but this way I didn't have to mod anything.) It looks funny that Superman appears to have a Kryptonite base, but...

At least he does 4 damage to start and is useful pretty much all the way down his dial, and 155 points is very playable.

Eric

[Clark-br]

It is obvious that WK reduced some of Superman's powers, like his damage, to keep him less expensive, but if Supes have a little less than 11 cliks of leadership they could give him a much deserved 4 damage. I used the formula given in Artisan's Guild to make a Silver Age Superboy, with HSS (5 clicks), 4 damage (4 clicks), 10 cliks of life, Impervious and no leadership (he is SuperBOY,remeber?) and he was only 200 points. So WK can make a stronger Superman for less than 200 points (Modern Age Superman is not as tough as Silver Age Superboy).