View Full Version : Brotherhood vs Firelord/Vision and other battles.
Well, considering the various posts about Firelord and others issues. I decided to post the results of our tournament last weekend.
It was a 300pt head to head tournament with only Indoor Maps allowed. 10 Turn Max or approx. 50 minuets of play.
I decided to run my favorite 300pt team:
R. Scarlet Witch
R. Hydra Op
R. Hydra Op
R. Hydra Op
R. Hydra Medic
This team gives me 10 figures, 6 actions (over 2 turns), Leadership, and 5 figures that move "free". It's a brotherhood team where the Hydra Op figures represent mutants with +1 to hit mutant power and Whirlwind (who is a mutant) gets recruited by Magneto.
The tournament included 7 team players. In three rounds I faced and defeated all my opponents. This post is not intended to brag. In fact, two of my matches (#1 and #3) were very close in points.
My opponents included the following main figures:
Medics (2) one was an LE
Thugs and Medics?
R. Invisible Girl
?. Aim Medic
I will give extra details on opponent#3 partly because it's a Firelord team and partly because it was the championship round.
Generally speaking I lost only hydra figures. In the first Match I did lose Pyro and in the third match I lost QuickSilver. My Medicís only heal attempt was on Whirlwind in the 3rd game after Whirlwind took 5 damage from Firelord (And, I got a lucky roll of 5 on my healing attempt). My kills included Spiral, Scarlet Witch, SuperSkrull, Bullseye and many medics. In addition, I sent MoonDragon running for her life and nearly finished off Firelord when my opponent chooses to concede the match (with 2 turns left).
I especially wanted to note the Firelord battle. My opponent's strategy was to circle around me (phasing through walls) with Firelord taxied by Vision. He tried to keep the others generally close so he could heal Firelord (but I never allowed it). He also tried to keep Invisible girl adjacent to as many of his figures as possible and especially next to his medic.
Now as you can see, I did not use the favored Firelord, Black Panther or Wasp in my team. I did use Scarlet Witch but this is because she was a Brotherhood member and because I do not have very high Attack values. So, no outwit and only 1 Taxi/Tk figure who is also my most expensive pieceÖ..bad strategy for a taxi right?
Again, I post this to debunk various thoughts about winning tournaments, Firelord must be used etcÖ
How do I beat Firelord? Many have commented on this subject. Yes, make him weak and either finish him off or donít let him heal. It really isnít that hard. No medic can heal if there is enemy figure adjacent to it. This is why I love QuickSilver. He will always chase down your medic. Killing QuickSilver is not a simple answer to your problem. I have a swarm attack team. There are two many of my figures moving to frequently all over you! Pushing figures is usually a big mistake against my team. But, rarely can the opponent help it. Iím on top of them and coming from everywhere. Even when the opponent knows he shouldnít push, he still does because he canít resist. My figures seem to be everywhere causing problems everywhere.
I know this sound like a brag. Really, Iím not a great player. My 9 year old daughter (just turned 9) beats me frequently (more than I beat her). I guess I just really like this team, there are so many combinations.
Ok, Iíll stop and let you respond and then give you more info if your interested.
I am puzzled by Whirlwind on the team, if you're going for Brotherhood. I haven't read comics in about 10 years, though, so if he joined the Brotherhood sometime during then, I wouldn't know it. Still, he doesn't have the Brotherhood team ability. His 3 damage flurry is quite useful, though.
Your Right, Keleko.
Whirlwind has never been in the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (in comic books). He is, however, a mutant and he is evil. I used to play Marvel Role playing game (back in High School and College). The Big Green Mutant Book (I forget it's name but I have it in my shed) listed most know mutants for the role playing game. WhirlWind was listed there and we often would make up our teams of evil mutants or X-Men.
In the comics, Mutants are often recruited to join a team. I like to recruit Whirlwind because he works so well with Magneto and Scarlet Witch. Magneto can carry AND throw Whirlwind. Whereas, Spiral can be thrown but not carried. Very often, I find that I need both options. Whirlwind only has an attack of 8, so Scarlet is a huge help to him. 3 is useally his minimum damage. Often, I get bonus damage from knock back (into walls or off buildings). Whirlwind comes in at a very low 41pts (perfect for Brotherhood teams) and he provides a lot of damage potential. Also, he doesn't really need the Brother team ability as long at least half the team is brotherhood. Why have every figure use the free move and never use the allotted actions? It seems more effect to use 3 free actions and 3 Allotted actions rather than 6 free actions and 0 allotted actions. Your paying for team abilities that your not using (or didn't need).
Anyhow, I like to be a little creative with my teams but still have a general theme. I think that Mutant book was called Children of the atom? or some such.....
I thought, perhaps, because of all the awsome sneak peaks and exclusive release information that this thread could have easily slipped past everyones notice.
On the other hand, maybe I'm just a head of my time:D
I like it. It's nice to see how each faction is developing it's own tactics, like the Brotherhood 'swarm' and the Batman 'turtle.'
Gotta ask though, how did you bring down Firelord and Vision? I noteice you didn't kill them but came close to doing Firelord in. Looking at your lineup, I'm not seeing anyone who could hurt Firelord easily...
Thank you for asking. Let me tell you...I was worried about it too. I really didn't expect to win the tourny. I just wanted to see how my favorite team would hold up. The other players where good players and I overall I wasn't especially lucky (although Scarlet makes you a little lucky).
Firelord and Vision both have pretty high defenses, which can be a big problem for the Brotherhood. Furthermore, Vision has Invulnerability. I didn't have Outwit or Incapacitate to use against Invulnerability. Pyro only does 3 damage and Whirlwind only 3 damage per blow (subtract 2 from each hit even with flurry). Even Sabertooth would have to get a good roll (1 or 2=NOTHING) and 3 would only scratch him.
However, the swarm worked.
I knew I would have to never allow any chance of healing. So, I advanced all figures (spread out) toward his medic. His Bullseye injured my QSilver. But, I knocked out his Bullseye with my Whirlwind. This upset him. He then blasted my Whirlwind with Firelord. Somewhere in this process he ended up pushing Vision and Firelord......This is a key factor in Swarm teams. You have so many actions every turn. The opponent starts to worry. His few figures start shrinking in number (as you eliminate his support figures/medics etc.) Even if he knows he shouldn't push, he cannot seem to help it. One of my figures will expose themselves and he will push to get the kill.
The bad news of pushing is that his defence values dropped (good for me). He also lost Invulnerability. The five damage was not enough to kill Whirlwind and his figures were already pushed (he could not finish the job). I tossed whirlwind back to my own medic for a quick heal (via Magneto tk). I forget what happened on the next turn. I was advancing Sabertooth on him as fast a stealth in objects would allow. I think I used my Hydras to prevent another Firelord blast on anyone important. He retreated to find another shot. Then, I tossed Pyro forward and adjacent to my Hydra figures. This boosted Pyro's attack (plus Scarlet) so that that I was able to deliver 3 damage to the Firelord (now 4 clix of total damage at least). I don't remember but I think he may have pushed again somewhere before this hit.
I do remember loving it every time he pushed. I think he killed Qsilver to try to free up his medic. I ended up killing his medic with Sabertooth to end his hope of healing Firelord. Firelord was eventually reduced to 1 damage value (offensively). Vision was wasted by constantly taxing. Bullseye was killed earily and Invisable girl never did anything of use. Her 18 defense can be overcomed.......He surrendered.
Now, here the thing. V. Pyro has 9 attack +2 hydras =11. (I think the same is true for R. Magneto). Sabertooth has a 10 attack. These all give a fair but not great chance to hit an 18 defense. But, Scarlet makes it work. She even makes Whirlwind a good fighter. Whirlwind is only an 8 on attack. Whirlwind gets 2 attacks with flurry, but he gets 3 chances to score at least one hit with Scarlets help. Whirlwind almost always hits for at least 3 damage. Because, I get to make so many rolls with him, he seems to score a lot of Knock backs and a few critical hits (definately more than other figures). It seems like I often knock people off building or into walls with him (for extra damage).
The game was close. He KO'd my R. QuickSilver, R. Hydra Medic, and I think one R. Hydra Operative. I KO'd his E. Bullseye and V. AIM Medic. The kills were dead even but his team was less than 300pts. When he saw that he could not get a KO with 2 turns left he surrendered. I think that I would have KO'd his Firelord in the last 2 rounds but that didn't matter since his surrender won the Tourney for me.
I really was shocked.
Interesting read, thanks.
Seeing this team set up, I would expect an opponent to target Sabretooth and remove him from the fight asap, since nobody else was really a threat to Vision, or Firelord's high defense.
Another question: Did you TK Whirlwind around with Magneto, or let him move about by himself with his high speed value? And did you push Whirlwind to hit Bullseye after moving to base him, even though you'd lose his 3 damage after the hit? I haven't seen much Whirlwind use but I am interested in people#s strategy.
Good points. You are excellent at identifing the real issues.
Whenever a game begins, the first thing most people do (in their mind) is to identify priority targets on the other team. I don't know what he was thinking about my team. Maybe, he had trouble identifing key targets on my side? This is not a common team people see at tournies.
I do know that he was never able to target my Sabertooth (from Range). I kept him in stealth the whole game. Like you pointed out, he has my best raw attack value which is my biggest weakness. My opponent never did try to base upto Sabertooth. But, the way the game turned out, All Sabertooth did was kill his Medic (who had an 18 def next to Invisable girl). Perhps, it was the threat of Sabertooth that helped my team more than his actually attacks. Personally, I thought killing his Medic was a key move although it did not give me many points. I also had trouble moving Sabetooth quickly because I kept him in stealth (half move). I did try to keep Magneto near him for possible strikes but this was hard to maintain throughout the battle. Magneto was probably adjacent to Sabertooth for only 2 out of the 8 turns.
Killing Bullseye earily was probably very important to the final outcome because we play with limits in both the amount of time and the # of turns. You can't afford to wait to long if your behind. Even if going slower is the better strategy to maintain high defenses/Invulnerability. By playing only 10 turn max or 50 minuets it helps encourage the opponent to push his powerful figures. Therefore, getting ahead earily is important.
I almost always carry Whirlwind around with Magneto while looking for opportunities to throw him. I also try to keep a second figure close by (like Pyro) For more options or for a 2nd strike. This can be dangerous against EE. But, indoors it was generally easy to block his line of sight. Even with Phasing, he had trouble. I keep all my other figures spread out (about 2 squares) to avoid EE and benefit Pyro when I throw him forward (+1 to hit via Hydras).
I generally don't use Whrilwinds long move until after he is hurt. Then, I either run back to my medic or use him to Tie-up the opponent's Medic (depending on the what is most important at that time). Whirlwind is major part of my offense so I want to transport him in for the kill. I use R.Quicksilver for the long movement instead of Whirlwind. But, is is nice to have the option of using Whirlwinds long movement is I needed it. (I love long movement).
Being able to carry Whirlwind is also a key advantage for whirlwind over Spiral. I know Spiral has higher attack values and more damage. But, it seems like she is such a priority (for the opponent to kill) that she never lasts long. Unless the opponent has played against me before (not to brag) they useally underestimate WhirlWind. Whirlwind is also cheaper than Spiral. So I can spend my points on other figures and losing Whirlwind costs me less. He has high returns for his point cost.
Since I carry and throw Whirwind, I never have to push for his first attack. This was also important in the game because he would have killed Whirlwind with Firelord if I had pushed first.
It seems like the Hydra/Brotherhood team would be very hard to take down for a Firelord team. Firelord is generally strong against teams built around one high point character(I once saw a fully healthy V Dr. Doom be killed in one turn by Firelord and Titania), but swarm armies will give Firelord trouble, there are so many targets, it's hard to figure out who best to deal that deadly 5 damage too.
I think Wileyone definately had the advantage in that Firelord game. His opponent made 2 big mistakes, one is that he built his team around Firelord, which may work in a 200pt. game but in a 300pt. game, you need a good close combat heavy hitter to back up Firelord. Also, it seems Wileyone's opponent didn't really target the right figure, Magneto seemed like he kept Wilyone's whole team mobile, he should have been a main target.
Also, Wileyone, you have a great team, but you may want to consider down grading some figures and adding a Vulture, in order to make it a little more mobile.
Good catch Jay10. Magneto is the center piece of this team. I've only had one opponent who specifically sought out and targeted him first. His mistake was moving into my team to quickly. So even thought he suceeded in killing Magneto, my attackers chewed him up. If he had waited a couple of turns my figures would have been more spread out.
I have experimented with dropping Magneto in exchange for one or two Mandroids. But, they cannot fly and they only have one clix of tk. They also stretch my theme team a little to far. I can exuse a few pieces and still claim a theme, but Whirlwind, hydra and Shield???
Vulture could represent a weak Sauron (I hope they make him soon). I've also tried to work in a Toad, cause I really like him. But, my problem with any changes to this 300pt team is as follows:
My big guns:
Pyro, Sabertooth and Whirlwind.
My mandoratory support figures
Magneto and Scarlet Witch
My cheap tie-up figures
QSilver, and 3 R.Hydra agents
I can't see weakening my main guns. My attacks values are not that great. My big guns are medium guns on most everyone else' team.
The support figures cannot be changed. Maybe they will make a cheaper Polaris with one version being Brotherhood (I hope). But, so far no go.
I also see the 3 rookie Hydra agents as Mandatory. They benefit the most from all my free moves. Their +1 to hit is vital and I love tie up to much.
Perhaps I could drop Qsilver for Vulture and upgrade my Medic? I love QSilver's long move and he elimates my opponents medic useally. It seems a tough call to me. But, I might try it out.
I appreciate everyone comments!!!!!!!!!!
cool post. I like your team. I too have had some success with swarming people and tieing up opponent's figures. If you gum up the ground with cheap cannon fodder your ranged characters can pick off their tied up guys. This works for me especially well with Shield and the snipers. Tie up figures with Agents, Troopers, whatever, use mandroids for stealth control and mobility and snipers for kill. The only problem is EE and characters with Phasing/Leap Climb. You can almost set it up so your opponent cannot move without getting tangled with one of your figures. Not a bad strategy and I like the fact that you combined it with more powerful figures. My only problem is that there is no inferent advantage to playing so many figures. You could potentially play 30 V thugs in a 300pt game but still only have 3 actions. If only leadership was cumulative. sigh...Great post though!
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