Why I dont use Exp. Batman!

[TheDarkKnight]

He cant handle close combat. His stats are to low and go down way to fast and he never pulled his own weight. I cant afford perplexers nor cops and taxi for him make him to expensive.


I now use U bats because he can take care of himself and i am loyal to batman.

[krzysztof]

Batman is well worth his points for his willpower, outwit, stealth, two arrows w/ incapacitate, decent damage value & range.

I like U Batman, but he lacks the Batman ally ability & is not as good for Outwit.

[Jackygobang]

Originally posted by TheDarkKnight
He cant handle close combat. His stats are to low and go down way to fast and he never pulled his own weight. I cant afford perplexers nor cops and taxi for him make him to expensive.


I now use U bats because he can take care of himself and i am loyal to batman.




Errm....can't handle close combat? have you forgotten the heapin' helpin of CCE, dude? And though his attack is low, it's semi steady. The last click on a U batman could inspire Black Manta towards victory. The last click of an E batman may not shake mountains, but it will certainly finish off the tub of quivering mass thats left after batmans other clix...

[WeRVenom]

just use his leap/climb to move him into a bush and blast your enemy the next round with a batarang. With willpower he won't take damage from the push and you can't argue with unoutwitable stealth. In my opinion the E Batman is THE ninja of DC.

[TheDarkKnight]

A ninja YES but the ninja needs to work out.

Ok i am considering trying him again!

[esfoad]

... statements like yours do remind us that we have a couple of different options to take for future Batman figs (probably Uniques) in future sets.

While I rather enjoy the current models (though I would have liked to have seen more Outwit on the current Unique), knowing we will see a Batman and Superman in each set (ala Marvels Wolverine, Hulk, Spidey) we could see a more melee oriented Bats and a more ranged/field general Bats.

CCE Bats:
-Charge
-Incap (maybe a couple clix of smoke)
-Imperv, Toughness, Willpower
-CCE (maybe ending with a couple clix of Outwit)

General Bats (at least two arrows):
-Leap\Climb
-Smoke, Incap, EE
-Willpower, Shield\Deflection
-Leadership (one or two at start), Outwit (of course)

Deep dials and the Bat team ability on both. And for the love of Pete, please up the AV to 10 or 11.

[stinger23]

Esfoad, why Impervious? Batman is my favorite character and the reason I collect comics but he shouldn't have Impervious. I will agree with a few clicks of Toughness and that his attack should be higher. In my opinion they should switch the movement and attack stats of Batman and Nightwing. Nightwing is the more agile and should have a higher movement and Batman is the better fighter and therefore should have the higher attack. Also another possible unique would be Batman from when he was on the Venom drug. Definetely toughness, and superstrength.

[esfoad]

Originally posted by stinger23
Esfoad, why Impervious?

Indeed that's a bit of a stretch and it wasn't thought to be for more than one click. I was leaning more towards the "attack misses completely" aspect to have a strong opening click. But that could (and should) be accomplished with a high defense.

I was tweaking around in the Clix dial Generator spreadsheet and came up with the two different Bat versions I mentioned above. Here's the initial thought for the CCE-ccentric Bats:

Batman (unique)
81-89 pts (this is the sheet range but I would increase it)
1 arrow
6 range
9 clix of life (including start)
Batman Team Ability

Speed
10 9 9 9 8 8 8 7 7

Attack
11 11 10 10 9 9 8 8 8

Defense
18 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13

Damage
2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

The idea behind this figure is for him to make his way into melee on the strength and tricks of the first couple of clicks (Charge, Incap if needed along the way, Willpower, and Outwit). Then the meat of the dial (5 clicks) to do his melee damage (incap/smoke helping to fend off enemies who might assist his current combatant and/or to assist teammates in his range). And lastly a couple of clicks to retreat and regroup or heal if necessary (leap/climb, smoke cloud, willpower, and outwit).

Not pleased about this, but I went with one arrow instead of two to help further differentiate this version from the HT Unique. That plus the natural damage differences (not outwittable of course) should be enough of a diff though I'd consider increasing the point cost of this potential fig as another differing option (not to mention the additional colors to the dial).

Comments?

[TheDarkKnight]

I like the idea of EE because Batman does have the exploding batarangs. A new batman in the next set of DC has to happen because if they can make 4 wolverines and 4 spiderman 3 batmen is not a problem

[HalfassedNinja]

I'm sorry but when has Batman EVER charged into battle? He is usually waiting in the shadows, formulating a plan, and then attacks. That's why in the Superfriends, Superman would be putting a hurt on a group of baddies while betman lassoed one with a batarang on a rope :D

[kang4001]

Dark Knight- I wouldn't mind a whole lot of Batmen, myself. You could make a lot of gadjet based variations. I always liked the gliders, although how do you represent gliding, as opposed to regular flying?

[EVIL CAP]

His damage is natural and he gets CCE in the middle of his dial when he still has at least a 9 atack or an 8 on the last one.Bats weaknesses are his attack is lower than 10 and his range is only a 6 his strengths are totally contrary to what you werte complaining about.He is fairly consistant down the dial does good in close can break away for free and has willpower to not worry about pushing.I still play Vet Nightwing alot more but Batman still has a lot of very good points

[Ghost_Rider]

The trouble with Nightwing is that he is glass jawed. I have played with both Nightwing and experienced Batman equally, and Batman always was more useful to me.

I think the reason why Nightwing has a better attack and a better range is because he is younger and in his prime, while Batman is getting a little bit older.

However, in the long run Batman is still better because of the Willpower, the Close Combat Expert, the higher speed, and how he can take punishment and still deliver.

Ghost

[NateTG]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider
The trouble with Nightwing is that he is glass jawed. I have played with both Nightwing and experienced Batman equally, and Batman always was more useful to me.

I think the reason why Nightwing has a better attack and a better range is because he is younger and in his prime, while Batman is getting a little bit older.

However, in the long run Batman is still better because of the Willpower, the Close Combat Expert, the higher speed, and how he can take punishment and still deliver.

Ghost

My experience fighting against batman is that:
1. Batman is an average close combat fighter in HClix. Most of the good close combat fighters will destroy him without blinking. He's ok for beating down medics and support figures.
2. The clicks where Batman has CCE are his least useful clicks. Outwit is more valuable than CCE.
3. Willpower is not that great when your opponent is pounding on you. It really only takes two solid hits to make it worth less than toughness. Of course, I'm a big believer in pushing figures that don't have willpower.

Batman is good at:
1. Running from obstacle to obstacle outwitting and incapacitating.
2. Being hard to catch. Ranged attacks from stealth and leap climb so that he can't be tied down in base-to-base combat. He's 85 points that should almost never die in a 10 round game.
3. Running down support figures. Let's face it, Bats is good for taking out medics and incapacitating taxis when he's not being chased.

[JerryReedStyle]

...with U Bats, I just like to see the stunned look on an opponents face when you beat outwit out of him....then beat it back into him. <chuckle>

"That's three clicks on Batman! Hey....uh.....WHA...??"

[TheDarkKnight]

Do you know what Batman i want to see! AZ BATS. The batman that filled for bruce during Knight fall. his dail would look like this..


11 10 10 9 9 8 8 7 6 6 (all Leap Climb)
12 11 (super strenghth) 11 10 10 9 (incap) 9 8 7 (Energy Exp) 6
18 (imperv) 17 17 16 16 (Toughness) 15 15 14 14 12 (willpower)
4 3 3 (CCE) 3 3 (battle furry) 2 2 (RCE) 2 2 2

Of course Batman Team Ability and would probably cost 125 points with 8 range and 2 lighting bolts!

[Ghost_Rider]

That is more like 300 points.
Ghost

[esfoad]

HalfassedNinja - May the gaming gods help us if WizKids ever starts making figs based on Superfriends. I hope the smiley face has a tongue in it's cheek.

EVIL CAP - What was I complaining about other than trying to think of future/alternative Batmen? Yes I would like to see Batmen leaning towards one play style/situation or another, but you'll never hear me honestly complain about the current Bats other than the lowish attack (which can be easily corrected in future figs).

But while correcting that AV, why not put together a couple of Bats for use in different situations? I know it's a tough sell to argue given the versatility and effectiveness on both fronts (melee and range/control) of the current E Bats, but we do need to think of something. My initial thought was more close combat oriented and a more range or commander Bats. What's yours?

As for charge, well that's just more of the attempt to weight him towards melee. No it's not typically Batman's style but it has happened. He has had to charge into situations and we could easily accept that in sculpt (though we could probably argue just how many clicks of charge he'd have on the dial). Aside from obvious physical attributes that an established character would or would not have (in Bat's case we know we wouldn't see Shape Shift, Super Senses, Plasticity, etc) we have a wide range of directions we can take his future figs (especially given the depth of his stories and situations we can draw from). So if we want a new Bat dial in future figs that leaves us with A) slightly tweaking his dial to correct any "errors" (really only AV and, IMO, DV in this case... is that enough to warrant a new R/E/V?) B) Tweaking the dial to manipulate the current positions of current powers (ex: should we move all of the Outwit to either the front or end of the dial? Keep it spread out?) or C) Coming up with more situational chars or a version of a char from a specific timeline/storyline.

Hey, I'd be perfectly happy to see a new, unique Bats from the current timeline. Give us the E or V we have now, up his AV and DV, and keep his point cost fairly managable, and I'll pay another $20+ to get him (if I don't pull him first). But while we're at it, why not try and be more creative with the figs if we can keep it within the continum? Personal preference I guess.

Before this gets any longer, the Batman example I posted was meant to represent a close combat Bats. 1 arrow. 6 range. Low/steady damage of 2 across the dial (so CCE doesn't get out of control). Push your way into battle on the first couple of clicks, do your damage, and then push out if necessary on the last two. That's all.

Maybe if I contrasted that "CCE Batman" idea with my "Field General Batman" (not that he doesn't manage already) it would give you a better idea of my intentions? Here's my tweak on that style:

Batman (unique)
93-103 pts (Again, the sheet range. Up for discussion)
2 arrow
8 range
9 clix of life (including start)
Batman Team Ability

Speed
10 10 9 9 9 8 8 8 7

Attack
10 10 10 9 9 9 8 8 8

Defense
17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 14

Damage
3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

Lead the team into position and soften up the opposition from a safe range on the first couple clicks with Leadership and EE. Then once in position (and you've run out of EE batarangs to throw from the first two clicks) you can take RCE pot shots for a couple of clicks while your team battles on upfront. The rest of the dial you attempt to control the field with smoke bombs, Bat bolas, and Outwit (with the option to deal out a steady 2 damage at will). Enough of a difference and correction of the V Bats to warrant the change?

Does that help clear up my intentions of these figs? Does anyone have any tweaks to add to them for their intended purpose? Or is this the wrong direction to take future Batman figures?

I wouldn't mind seeing an Azbats in a future set once we see a new/revised Bruce Wayne Batman. But I'd think twice about giving Jean-Paul the Batman Team Ability.

[EVIL CAP]

Esfoad-I dont know if you noticed but i wasent talking to you earlier i was talking to the guy that started the thread

[jolt]

esfoad - I can see what you were shooting for with this version of Bats but (and this is just my opinion), it has the same problem I see with other custom ideas: too many powers. On your last click, a character is basically just a bloody pulp. Many characters aren't even Thug/Lackey quality at that point. Your Bats still has moderate stats with a power on every stat. By the time you reach the end of the game where most everyone is on or near his last click, your Bats is going to mop the floor against just about everybody. Even U Nightmare from stat-heavy marvel is only slightly better on his last click and he has fewer powers.

jolt

[B@man]

Yeah, but Batman's one of those characters who's always gonna surprise you just when you think you've got him beaten. He's a dangerous bloody pulp. That said, I think this version would be a bit too powerful, and I really can't see the b/c/f. Actually, if you were going to have b/c/f, I'd put it only onthe very last click of the dial, where he's really pulling out all the stops.

[esfoad]

Originally posted by jolt
By the time you reach the end of the game where most everyone is on or near his last click, your Bats is going to mop the floor against just about everybody. Even U Nightmare from stat-heavy marvel is only slightly better on his last click and he has fewer powers.

While available stats or powers at the end of the dial should still be up for discussion, one of the characteristics of Bats should be his consistent quality per click. Yes Willpower is an ideal power for Bats but he deserves quality stats on those end clicks too. Even moreso on these unique versions.

If we must represent exhaustion on his last click or two then we could drop his stats a tad and maybe even loose leap/climb. But his incap, willpower, and outwit are abilities that the Bat always has at his disposal. Spent or not (as we've seen time and time again... unless we want to think he's just run out of gadgets to throw by the end game :).

[esfoad]

Originally posted by B@man
Yeah, but Batman's one of those characters who's always gonna surprise you just when you think you've got him beaten. He's a dangerous bloody pulp. That said, I think this version would be a bit too powerful, and I really can't see the b/c/f. Actually, if you were going to have b/c/f, I'd put it only onthe very last click of the dial, where he's really pulling out all the stops.

I agree with you in that "he's a dangerous bloody pulp" (love that, thanks) but I've quickly double checked now and still didn't see where we've mentioned b/c/f for him in this thread. Did I miss it?

[TheDarkKnight]

" A dangerous bloody pulp" ah good stuff. Batman should not loss leap climb on his last click. I mean no matter how weak you are you can still fire off a grapling hook. And remember Batman has been trained to the peak of human perfection so even at his last click he could still beat the liven daylights out of any lacky. Just read KnightFall.

[esfoad]

Originally posted by TheDarkKnight
Batman should not loss leap climb on his last click. I mean no matter how weak you are you can still fire off a grapling hook. And remember Batman has been trained to the peak of human perfection so even at his last click he could still beat the liven daylights out of any lacky. Just read KnightFall.

I fully agree with you, but I'm also extremely biased (even when trying not to avoid it). I think I'm trying to compramise :)

[B@man]

My colorblind eyes misread the ee orange as b/c/f red! Please ignore my b/c/f comments! (I always have to double check my colors during games, too. It gets annoying.)