Black Flash and STOP!

[C-Dog]

Forgive me if this was asked before. Would Black Flash's Hypersonic be countered by Kid Zoom's "STOP!" Special Power? According to the Quintessence/Power Cosmic TA, figs with these TA cannot have their abilities countered. Could Black Flash still have Hypersonic against Kid Zoom?

C

[MooKow]

you have a point there, I would also like to know the ruling on this...

[Harpua]

Forgive me if this was asked before. Would Black Flash's Hypersonic be countered by Kid Zoom's "STOP!" Special Power? According to the Quintessence/Power Cosmic TA, figs with these TA cannot have their abilities countered. Could Black Flash still have Hypersonic against Kid Zoom?

C

Kid Zoom doesn't counter anything.

"Other characters can't use Hypersonic Speed."

That is not countering HSS in any way.

[C-Dog]

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here? A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."

C

[MooKow]

the man has a point...

[noregretz]

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here? A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."

C

Semantics are kind of key in this game. If Kid Zoom's SP said "all hypersonic speed is countered", then Black Flash could thumb his nose at him.

[bluelantern01]

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here? A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."

C

From the Glossary in FF rulebook.

counter: Through the use of a power or ability, causing another power, ability, or effect to be ignored. The effect of a countered power, ability, or effect ends immediately.

ignores: Is not affected by or treats the stated property or effect as if it didn’t exist or happen.

Okay, so outwit "counters" powers. However, Kid Zoom does not counter a power or treat it as if it did not exist or happen, he prevents you from using it. So we are not really just talking semantics. The words have particular meanings within the game and they are defined in the glossary. Now if they mucked with those definitions in the Blackest Night starter . . . .

[Quebbster]

Kid Zoom doesn't counter anything.

"Other characters can't use Hypersonic Speed."

That is not countering HSS in any way.

Double orange... Not that it should be needed.

[imaleximsweet]

Semantics are kind of key in this game. If Kid Zoom's SP said "all hypersonic speed is countered", then Black Flash could thumb his nose at him.

what he said,

there is a big difference between "Counter" "ignore" and cant use. the first two have definitions in the glossary.

i agree the words are similar in theory, but thats just like saying i am a Yooper, just because i am from Michigan (when really i am from Detroit)

[exodus147]

OH NO!!! Black Flash is going to become the Ulik of this set!!!

[Harpua]

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here?
Yes, because those are central to the game and why things do what they do.
A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."
It most certainly is not.


STOP! does not cancel, ignore, or counter a darn thing. If it did, then it would specifically say it.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

OH NO!!! Black Flash is going to become the Ulik of this set!!!

Quite the opposite-- with his phasing, poison and Quintessence, he's going to be the anti-Kid Zoom. He'll chase him down forcing him to push or take poison.

[imaleximsweet]

Quite the opposite-- with his phasing, poison and Quintessence, he's going to be the anti-Kid Zoom. He'll chase him down forcing him to push or take poison.

i think he was refering to the fact that everyone is going to be asking questions about counter ignore reduced etc

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Oh. I was thinking he meant the "sadly nerfed before he was even released" aspect. I get it now.

[vamroc]

OH NO!!! Black Flash is going to become the Ulik of this set!!!

Yup Kid Zoom's SP will get Outwitted, then Superman will HSS up to him with a heavy object, and put Kid Zoom in a pine box.

[imaleximsweet]

Yup Kid Zoom's SP will get Outwitted, then Superman will HSS up to him with a heavy object, and put Kid Zoom in a pine box.

wow, where do you play where people keep their clix in a pine box? i just got some busted up tool box...

[TalonMC]

If Kid Flash is on the map, would Black Flash be able to use Feats assigned to him (Black Flash) that list HSS as a prereq? Is using a feat attached to a power considered to be "using" that power? Usually, countering a power that's a feat prereq would prevent the use of that feat, correct? But since STOP! doesn't *counter* HSS, it would seem Black Flash could still use his HSS-related feats, as long as they don't require him to use HSS itself.

-MC

[imaleximsweet]

If Kid Flash is on the map, would Black Flash be able to use Feats assigned to him (Black Flash) that list HSS as a prereq? Is using a feat attached to a power considered to be "using" that power? Usually, countering a power that's a feat prereq would prevent the use of that feat, correct? But since STOP! doesn't *counter* HSS, it would seem Black Flash could still use his HSS-related feats, as long as they don't require him to use HSS itself.

-MC

i'd say are correct, the power is still there, it just cannot be used. which feats are you refering to?

[TalonMC]

i'd say are correct, the power is still there, it just cannot be used. which feats are you refering to?

It was just a hypothetical question. The only feat I know of that lists HSS as a prereq is Damage Shield.

-MC

[Quebbster]

Yup, Hypersonic is still there, so it can be used to qualify for feats.

[TalonMC]

Yup, Hypersonic is still there, so it can be used to qualify for feats.

Emphasis mine. :p

Seriously though, I think that SP is gonna be problematic unless "used" gets defined in the rules as a new power-related keyword like countered and ignored.

Wouldn't it have been easier (and clearer from an established rules standpoint) if the SP was simply stated as "All other characters' HSS is countered."?

-MC

[Harpua]

Oh. I was thinking he meant the "sadly nerfed before he was even released" aspect. I get it now.

How was Ulik nerfed before he was released? He works exactly as he is worded.

[normalview]

Emphasis mine. :p

Seriously though, I think that SP is gonna be problematic unless "used" gets defined in the rules as a new power-related keyword like countered and ignored.

Wouldn't it have been easier (and clearer from an established rules standpoint) if the SP was simply stated as "All other characters' HSS is countered."?

-MC

How does one "use" Plasticity to activate Trick Shot? Or Super Senses for Elite Sniper? Or Master Mind for Thwart? And on and on and on.


Anyone who tries to argue that "can't use a power' = "can't use a feat" has some seriously flawed reasoning ;)

[TalonMC]

How does one "use" Plasticity to activate Trick Shot? Or Super Senses for Elite Sniper? Or Master Mind for Thwart? And on and on and on.


Anyone who tries to argue that "can't use a power' = "can't use a feat" has some seriously flawed reasoning ;)

I was thinking more along the lines of feats that list multiple effects, including a bonus of some sort when using the prereq power.

The Mental Shields feat is an example of this. If some game effect says my character "cannot use Mind Control," my character can't use the part of the feat that allows my character to use Mind Control without receiving feedback damage, but would my character still be unaffected by other character's Mind Control?

The way I see it, you *use* a power simply by having that power listed as a feat prereq.

This is why I think the SP should've used the word countered. It'd make things simpler to stick with established terminology.

-MC

[Harpua]

I was thinking more along the lines of feats that list multiple effects, including a bonus of some sort when using the prereq power.

The Mental Shields feat is an example of this. If some game effect says my character "cannot use Mind Control," my character can't use the part of the feat that allows my character to use Mind Control without receiving feedback damage, but would my character still be unaffected by other character's Mind Control?

-MC
Certainly.

Let's make up a feat.

Ah Ahhh...Savior of the Universe
Prerequisite: Hypersonic Speed
Choose a character.
When this character uses Hypersonic Speed, it may make two close combat attacks as free actions. When this character is attacked by a figure using Hypersonic Speed, it may use Super Senses if it can't already.

The first part would be unusable with Kid Zoom on the map as you need to be using HSS to use that part. The second part, however, doesn't require the use of HSS, so it still works.

[noregretz]

How was Ulik nerfed before he was released? He works exactly as he is worded.

I think he's referring to the fact that Ulik was designed to fight beat-sticks like Thor, but low powered swarms can destroy him. Heck I took one down with a Wendy & Marvin pog :laugh:

[TalonMC]

Certainly.

Let's make up a feat.



The first part would be unusable with Kid Zoom on the map as you need to be using HSS to use that part. The second part, however, doesn't require the use of HSS, so it still works.

Yeah, I figured that it'll be a "this part still works, but this part doesn't" situation. I guess my main beef is that it seems to be an overcomplicated effect that could've been easily simplified to create an "all or none" situation. That's all. It's a very cool SP and I can't wait to see it in use.

Thanks for the explanin'.

-MC

[C-Dog]

Thanks to all who responded. So, under the current wording in the Rule Book, Black Flash wouldn't have Hypersonic. However, as someone else pointed out, the new Rule Book might change things a bit.

This whole issue is, IMO, one of the flaws in this game. I think the game plays very well, overall. However, if we truly want to make this game easier to learn/play, we need to clarify all these semantics debates. "Counter vs. Ignore" and "Penetrating vs. Unavoidable" seem to bring an unnecessary level of confusion to the game. Hopefully NECA will take some steps to rectify this problem.

Thanks to the Rules Arbiters. One small suggestion, though: Maybe it's just me, but some of your responses came off a bit inflated/arrogant. People are going to ask questions about how to play this game -- If you are going to take the time to answer the questions here, a bit more kindness could go a long way.

C

[Harpua]

Thanks to all who responded. So, under the current wording in the Rule Book, Black Flash wouldn't have Hypersonic. However, as someone else pointed out, the new Rule Book might change things a bit.
He would still have Hypersonic. He just can't use it.

This whole issue is, IMO, one of the flaws in this game. I think the game plays very well, overall. However, if we truly want to make this game easier to learn/play, we need to clarify all these semantics debates. "Counter vs. Ignore" and "Penetrating vs. Unavoidable" seem to bring an unnecessary level of confusion to the game. Hopefully NECA will take some steps to rectify this problem.
What is to clarify? All of those things are already clearly spelled out in the rulebook.

Are you saying that there should be no difference between the three terms?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

How was Ulik nerfed before he was released? He works exactly as he is worded.

Are you asking a serious question or is this rhetorical? I don't actually think he was nerfed except in people's perceptions.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

How does one "use" Plasticity to activate Trick Shot? Or Super Senses for Elite Sniper? Or Master Mind for Thwart? And on and on and on.


Anyone who tries to argue that "can't use a power' = "can't use a feat" has some seriously flawed reasoning ;)


Well, I agree with you, but those of us who have followed the rules closely since the beginning have seen some really weird rulings. It never hurts to ask.

[Sheeplover]

"have"
"possess"
"counter"
"ignore"
"can't use"

...........and we don't understand why it it so difficult to get new players.............

I think the new starter set should include a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a copy of "Robert's rules of order."

[adamkomar]

"have"
"possess"
"counter"
"ignore"
"can't use"

...........and we don't understand why it it so difficult to get new players.............

I think the new starter set should include a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a copy of "Robert's rules of order."

You mean like the glossary in the back of the rule book?

counter: Through the use of a power or ability, causing another power, ability, or effect to be ignored. The effect of a countered power, ability, or effect ends immediately.
ignores: Is not affected by or treats the stated property or effect as if it didn’t exist or happen.
possess: To directly have a power, ability, or effect printed on a card or dial—not simply used via another power, ability, or effect.
use: To employ a power, ability, or effect.

[Melkhor]

"have"
"possess"
"counter"
"ignore"
"can't use"

...........and we don't understand why it it so difficult to get new players.............

I think the new starter set should include a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a copy of "Robert's rules of order."

It includes a rulebook, with all these terms and their meanings in relation to the game specifically spelled out.

Reading it helps a lot though, I really wish more people would try it...

[ChiRocker]

I stopped reading about 10 posts back or so, so forgive me if this has been mentioned, but when "Stop" is in play, all characters with HSS still have HSS, they just can't use it. If HSS was outwitted, the power would literally be treated as if it weren't there.

Here is an example (apart from the OP's question) of something that happens with "Stop" vs. "Outwit":

If The Flashes had Damage Shield equipped and Batman "Outwits" HSS and hits them up close, the Flashes take the damage that Batman dealt, and nothing more. However, if Kid Zoom HSS attacks The Flashes while "Stop" is in play, Kid Zoom will still take 1 click of damage from Damage Shield, because The Flashes still have HSS even if they can't use it.

I hope that helps make the power make more sense.

[Ihsan]

It includes a rulebook, with all these terms and their meanings in relation to the game specifically spelled out.

Reading it helps a lot though, I really wish more people would try it...

It would be nice, however, if WizKids printed all of these term in *boldface* on character cards, to emphasize the fact that they have specific meanings.

[refrusdraob]

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here? A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."

C

yes but in court your case doesnt hold up as the word COUNTER is not seen on Kid Zooms special

[Sheeplover]

You mean like the glossary in the back of the rule book?

counter: Through the use of a power or ability, causing another power, ability, or effect to be ignored. The effect of a countered power, ability, or effect ends immediately.
ignores: Is not affected by or treats the stated property or effect as if it didn’t exist or happen.
possess: To directly have a power, ability, or effect printed on a card or dial—not simply used via another power, ability, or effect.
use: To employ a power, ability, or effect.


I never said I didn't understand the rules. I am just saying that a new player will hear us discussing any of the definitions and get annoyed. What should be a simple fun game reminds me of President Clinton asking what the definition of "is" is.

No new players at your venue? Attendance down? Seasoned players walking away?............... The reason may be having to have a glossary at the back of the rulebook.

[normalview]

The reason may be having to have a glossary at the back of the rulebook.

So how does that statement jive with the fact that, to the best of my knowledge, there has ALWAYS been a glossary?

I guess the game has been losing players since the beginning :rolleyes:

[Surfer13]

Emphasis mine. :p

Seriously though, I think that SP is gonna be problematic unless "used" gets defined in the rules as a new power-related keyword like countered and ignored.

Wouldn't it have been easier (and clearer from an established rules standpoint) if the SP was simply stated as "All other characters' HSS is countered."?

-MC
It may have been "easier", but then Kid Zoom's STOP! wouldn't prevent characters with fortitude, or the PC or QTA, from using HSS, when it was apparently intended that it prevent anyone from using HSS other than Kid Zoom (and not even him if two are on the map).

Black Flash can use phasing/teleport. Black Flash also has HSS. He can't use both in the same turn. When he ises P/T, his HSS isn't countered, he just isn't using it.

All Kid Zoom is doing is making you decide not to use HSS every turn.

[BigSoph]

Are you asking a serious question or is this rhetorical? I don't actually think he was nerfed except in people's perceptions.

No, it was an official errata - Ulik is only legal if he is covered in brightly coloured foam

[Slayer_Xtreme]

Basically what it boils down to is the word cancel isn't used so the power works against Cosmic.

[noregretz]

"have"
"possess"
"counter"
"ignore"
"can't use"

...........and we don't understand why it it so difficult to get new players.............

I think the new starter set should include a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a copy of "Robert's rules of order."

LMAO! Rep to you sir! That's gone through my head when I try to introduce new players to the game. I have a friend at work that's into comics, and used to play D&D when he was younger. I'm thinking he'd LOVE this game....until I picture explaining the rules to him. I get this mental image of him looking at me with gritted teeth saying, "You're making this up as you go along!" And he's a big corn-fed country boy that could do severe damage to me with or without a heavy object.

[Trader2699]

The game isn't that hard, it's rules lawyers trying to get around things that complicate it. I saw this in VS all the time, a card doesn't target unless it uses the word "target."

Here, the exact verbage is important. If you pay attention to that and try *not* to use meta-thinking or what you view as common sense to twist the rules.

[Harpua]

Basically what it boils down to is the word cancel isn't used so the power works against Cosmic.
Power Cosmic doesn't have anything to do with canceling. ;)

Are you asking a serious question or is this rhetorical? I don't actually think he was nerfed except in people's perceptions.

You said he was nerfed before he was released. I really don't know what you're talking about when you say that. The best I can figure is EW/PB cutting through his SP, but tha wasn't any kind of nerfing. That's how he was designed.

[RedDragon]

This thread is a clear example as to why the rest of the free world thinks americans are jokes. Lately all we want to do is argue about everything. Even if its a clear answer, we're still going to argue about it. Til we get our way. Like big babies, it has been answered. The answer makes sense. unless you don't want it to. Get over it already.

[imaleximsweet]

This thread is a clear example as to why the rest of the free world thinks americans are jokes. Lately all we want to do is argue about everything. Even if its a clear answer, we're still going to argue about it. Til we get our way. Like big babies, it has been answered. The answer makes sense. unless you don't want it to. Get over it already.

who's arguing? people are asking questions, last i checked thats not arguing, they ask questions and provide counter points... thats not a big deal, noone's crying like babies...

[normalview]

... and we're officially done unless there are any more, actually, honest-to-goodness questions.

Opinions and such are fine, but please direct them toward the appropriate forums.

[Steelmage2000]

Quite the opposite-- with his phasing, poison and Quintessence, he's going to be the anti-Kid Zoom. He'll chase him down forcing him to push or take poison.

Lets not forget that nice 19 dv he has on his first click.

[archaon02]

Another reason counter wasn't used in Kid Zoom's power:

If his power said all other character's HSS was countered, his power would have no effect on the many special powers which grant the use of HSS.

[Harpua]

Another reason counter wasn't used in Kid Zoom's power:

If his power said all other character's HSS was countered, his power would have no effect on the many special powers which grant the use of HSS.

Sho' 'nuf.

[C-Dog]

Another reason counter wasn't used in Kid Zoom's power:

If his power said all other character's HSS was countered, his power would have no effect on the many special powers which grant the use of HSS.

Excellent point!

C

[zero_cochrane]

Here's another power interaction between Kid Zoom and Black Flash that I'd like to see clarified:

:g-starburst: Stop! (non-optional) Other characters can't use Hypersonic Speed

:g-starburst: Death Comes Swiftly Black Flash can use Poison. When Poison is used, adjacent opposing characters that can use Hypersonic Speed are dealt 2 damage instead.
If both Kid Zoom and Black Flash are in play on the same force, does Black Flash gain the benefit of the second clause of Death Comes Swiftly?

I'm thinking no - as there are no opposing characters who can use Hypersonic Speed, Black Flash has nobody to deal additional Poison damage to.

(Shame, it was looking like a nasty anti-HSS team!)

[Harpua]

Here's another power interaction between Kid Zoom and Black Flash that I'd like to see clarified:

:g-starburst: Stop! (non-optional) Other characters can't use Hypersonic Speed

:g-starburst: Death Comes Swiftly Black Flash can use Poison. When Poison is used, adjacent opposing characters that can use Hypersonic Speed are dealt 2 damage instead.
If both Kid Zoom and Black Flash are in play on the same force, does Black Flash gain the benefit of the second clause of Death Comes Swiftly?

I'm thinking no - as there are no opposing characters who can use Hypersonic Speed, Black Flash has nobody to deal additional Poison damage to.

(Shame, it was looking like a nasty anti-HSS team!)

Can the other character use HSS? No.:grin: (IE, you're correct.)

[bludd72]

This thread is a clear example as to why the rest of the free world thinks americans are jokes. Lately all we want to do is argue about everything. Even if its a clear answer, we're still going to argue about it. Til we get our way. Like big babies, it has been answered. The answer makes sense. unless you don't want it to. Get over it already.

heck i'm Canadian and even I don't see this as arguing! it's debating. ;)
and i think NECA desperately needs to add 2 more terms to their glossary:

ARGUE and DEBATE :laugh:

this just seems like a big hashing out of terminology and trying to clarify things. I mean guys like Harpua go the extra mile to actually explain in detail, with actual wording from the rule books, how and why things work the way they do. If it comes across as arrogant, it could be the frustration of having to explain seemingly straight forward concepts (sometimes they aren't so straight forward).
I respect both sides views (the Canadian in me...heh heh), and the frustration from both sides is also understandable.....except in this exact case. STOP is pretty straight forward in how it works.
when trying to understand the rules in this game, the absolute first thing you need to do is take out real world logic. I learned this back at the beginning of clix and even though once in a while some crazy power/ability/rule creeps in that makes me shake my head, i chant the mantra "there is no logic" and it all makes sense again :D

on a side note, the rest of the free world does not think Americans are a joke, we think you are all arrogant and can't take a joke :a-sharpshooter:

[Maraud]

Can the other character use HSS? No.:grin: (IE, you're correct.)

yes i want to argue with this one.
If i turn off HSS i can't use it.
If Kid Zoom is on the board i can't use it.

You stated that if you turn the power off you still meet the pre-req for feats so you would still take the 2 damage.
Would this not hold true with Kid Zoom on the board? Or am i missing something different here?

[Harpua]

yes i want to argue with this one.
If i turn off HSS i can't use it.
If Kid Zoom is on the board i can't use it.

You stated that if you turn the power off you still meet the pre-req for feats so you would still take the 2 damage.
Would this not hold true with Kid Zoom on the board? Or am i missing something different here?

Yeah, so using that logic, with Kid Zoom on the board, I'd say that you can't use HSS to meet a prerequisite.

I'll point out that when I said that, I was expressing a viewpoint of how I'd see it.

[Suttkus]

If you turn it off, you *can* use it, you just aren't.

[fastcat99]

i agree the words are similar in theory, but thats just like saying i am a Yooper, just because i am from Michigan (when really i am from Detroit)

Soooo..........that would make you a hoser? Or rather eh, hoser?

[fastcat99]

This thread is a clear example as to why the rest of the free world thinks americans are jokes. Lately all we want to do is argue about everything. Even if its a clear answer, we're still going to argue about it. Til we get our way. Like big babies, it has been answered. The answer makes sense. unless you don't want it to. Get over it already.

I thought they considered us jokes because we spend our money on pointless things like computers and internet access and spend all our time doing pointless, frivolous things like spending all our time online and watching TV?

[Maraud]

Yeah, so using that logic, with Kid Zoom on the board, I'd say that you can't use HSS to meet a prerequisite.

I'll point out that when I said that, I was expressing a viewpoint of how I'd see it.

So now the ruling is that you don't have to have the power that only that you can use it, and the power is not turned off?

If you turn it off, you *can* use it, you just aren't.
Actually if I turn stealth off to perplex myself up and then i want to attack i can't use it period, there is no i can but i'm not.

[Armourgeddon2K]

Double orange... Not that it should be needed.

It wasn't. That's the way we played it.

[Harpua]

So now the ruling is that you don't have to have the power that only that you can use it, and the power is not turned off?
Look, here's the way I imaging it will get ruled.

Stop! & Death Comes Swiftly - Nobody but Kid Zoom will be hit for 2.
Why? Because it clearly says that nobody can use HSS, so there is nobody that can use HSS when BZ's Poison comes off.

Death Comes Swiftly and Canceling - If you cancel HSS, you'll still be hit for 2 by BZ's Poison.
Why? Because they wouldn't purposefully make it so easy to nerf.

However you want to look at the rules to get to those answers, go ahead. As shown in previous debates on the matter, you can justify any answer with the rules, based on how you interpret the word use.

I'm pretty confident that the above is how they'll be ruled.

[nbperp]

I'm pretty confident that the above is how they'll be ruled.

Ditto FILLER

[elfholme]

This thread is a clear example as to why the rest of the free world thinks americans are jokes. Lately all we want to do is argue about everything. Even if its a clear answer, we're still going to argue about it. Til we get our way. Like big babies, it has been answered. The answer makes sense. unless you don't want it to. Get over it already.

I like the answer. I think it makes sense. But the ability to debate issues (and whine, or throw tea in harbors when we don't like the answers we're given) is KINDA the founding principle of the great U.S. of A. I guess the people in communist countries and dictatorships might think Americans are jokes, but frankly I'd rather be here. :)))

[theanalogkid]

Soooo..........that would make you a hoser? Or rather eh, hoser?

I'd rather be a Yooper than from Detroit. For one the air cleaner, and the neighborhood's safer...

[Harpua]

Yinzers are the best!

[theanalogkid]

Yinzers are the best!

You only got one city. We have a whole peninsula! Granted I'm from Kalamazoo, but that's where I plan on retiring to...

[space_cowboy]

Played Kid Flash against Black Flash at the tournament a ComicsWest in York, PA this weekend. Black Flash didn't stand a chance. Admitidly the "12" I rolled on the first attack helped a lot, but I had a shooting gallery set up, so even if Black Flash continued the chace, he was going to get attacked by the Holiday Killer, Batman/Catwoman, and/or Hawkman/Atom with a heavy object and a PC lined up. I really don't think he stood a chance.

[Maraud]

Look, here's the way I imaging it will get ruled.

Stop! & Death Comes Swiftly - Nobody but Kid Zoom will be hit for 2.
Why? Because it clearly says that nobody can use HSS, so there is nobody that can use HSS when BZ's Poison comes off.

Death Comes Swiftly and Canceling - If you cancel HSS, you'll still be hit for 2 by BZ's Poison.
Why? Because they wouldn't purposefully make it so easy to nerf.

However you want to look at the rules to get to those answers, go ahead. As shown in previous debates on the matter, you can justify any answer with the rules, based on how you interpret the word use.

I'm pretty confident that the above is how they'll be ruled.

so another words its going to be one of those inconsistent rulings? ;)
That is the way it sounds based on Why? Because they wouldn't purposefully make it so easy to nerf.
Sounds like another one of those well this is the way we want it.

I'm fine with it just like most people stated it would be nice for them to actually have consistent rulings.

[Harpua]

so another words its going to be one of those inconsistent rulings? ;)
That is the way it sounds based on Why? Because they wouldn't purposefully make it so easy to nerf.
Sounds like another one of those well this is the way we want it.

I'm fine with it just like most people stated it would be nice for them to actually have consistent rulings.

Hey, as long as it gets in to the PG saying "Canceling HSS does not prevent the 2 damage." then there is no inconsistency, the rule matches the ruling, and everything is clear.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

Sounds like another one of those well this is the way we want it.


Only KZ gets poisoned for 2? sounds consistent to me when dealing with unique SP's.
Turning off a power isnt losing it, allowing you to take the penalties (2 damage, etc) and bonuses (feats, etc) for having it still? still consistent.

so yes... "well, this is the way we want it" has probably been said more than once by the people who designed it. and i dont see anything inconsistent about that- they MAKE the rules. like... literally.

not trying to sound angry, just sayin.

[rpweld03]

Let's make up a feat.
Ah Ahhh...Savior of the Universe
Prerequisite: Hypersonic Speed



Me, I always play this feat paired with He'll Save Every One of Us!

[Phoenix_Icewing]

Me, I always play this feat paired with He'll Save Every One of Us!

Rest In Peace, Freddy Mercury!

[Maraud]

Turning off a power isnt losing it, allowing you to take the penalties (2 damage, etc) and bonuses (feats, etc) for having it still? still consistent.
.

then by that line of things then with KZ on the board does not make the lose it.
Can use=able to use it
can not use=not able to use it.
nothing confusing about that, if i turn off the power, i can't use it, plain and simple.
If i can't use said power then things that require me to use it won't work.

So yes there is inconsistency there with the way it is now.

FWIT it is the ruling now until it makes it into the PG, or officially stated.
as has been said by nbperp and harpua they predict that the ruling will be the opposite,and no official ruling has been made bu the RA, but per the wording of the powers now if i cancel HSS i don't take 2.

Once it is made official then so be it.

To say that if i cancel and power and can still use it is realy just way out there, It would mean people can cancel stealth and still use it.

[zero_cochrane]

Look, here's the way I imaging it will get ruled.

Stop! & Death Comes Swiftly - Nobody but Kid Zoom will be hit for 2.
Why? Because it clearly says that nobody can use HSS, so there is nobody that can use HSS when BZ's Poison comes off.Rats! Oh well, still plenty of time to think of a team before Thursday. :)

Thanks guys!

[nbperp]

To say that if i cancel and power and can still use it is realy just way out there, It would mean people can cancel stealth and still use it.

How about this...

Prerequisite: Stealth
Choose a character. The character gets +2 to its attack value when it makes a close combat attack while occupying hindering terrain. After the attack resolves, the character’s Stealth is countered until the beginning of your next turn.

My Stealther is in hindering terrain. I cancel Stealth in order to allow his damage to be perplexed. Are you saying I can't use this feat? Not so. The character still has stealth even if I can't use it (because it's canceled).

[Maraud]

How about this...



My Stealther is in hindering terrain. I cancel Stealth in order to allow his damage to be perplexed. Are you saying I can't use this feat? Not so. The character still has stealth even if I can't use it (because it's canceled).

Well with feats nothing says that you must be able to use the Pre-req power, that only you must be on the dial at the time of use.

When you outwit the pre-req power you can't use the power and its not there so its nothing like this.

No with KZ it makes it where you can't use the power but is still there, so you can still use feats(even though harpua stated that logically you can't)

With canceling a power its still there to be used by a feat, but you can't use the power itself.

If I throw the keys away to the car i can't use it.(but still there since its in front of me)turn off power
If i have the keys taken away by someone standing by me i can't use it.(once again the keys are right there)KZ making HSS not usable
Now if grabs the keys and breaks them i can't use it.(they are no longer there)outwitting

[Harpua]

(even though harpua stated that you can't)
I said that the logic would lead to that conclusion.

[vlad3theimpaler]

"have"
"possess"
"counter"
"ignore"
"can't use"

...........and we don't understand why it it so difficult to get new players.............

I think the new starter set should include a dictionary, a thesaurus, and a copy of "Robert's rules of order."
Actually, a thesaurus would make things WORSE, because the problem is that people try to interchange gameplay terms with synonyms when they have specific meaning.

True, but aren't we just talking semantics here? A power that cannot be used is considered "countered."

C

Actually, no, that's completely backwards. A power that is countered cannot be used, but inability to use a power does not mean it's countered. What you're saying is like saying that because all squares are rectangles, all rectangles are squares. One does not imply the other.

[spider_ham]

Kid Zoom vs Black Flash: Stop!


BF can't use HSS, but still possesses it.
KZ can use HSS and possesses it. He will be dealt 2 Poison damage from BF, because he can use it.


KZ will ignore BF's Poison in two situations:

1. KZ is within 6 squares of a friendly Poison Ivy/Harley Quinn.
2. KZ's HSS is countered by an opposing character.

[lensnart]

Thanks to all who responded. So, under the current wording in the Rule Book, Black Flash wouldn't have Hypersonic. However, as someone else pointed out, the new Rule Book might change things a bit.

This whole issue is, IMO, one of the flaws in this game. I think the game plays very well, overall. However, if we truly want to make this game easier to learn/play, we need to clarify all these semantics debates. "Counter vs. Ignore" and "Penetrating vs. Unavoidable" seem to bring an unnecessary level of confusion to the game. Hopefully NECA will take some steps to rectify this problem.

Thanks to the Rules Arbiters. One small suggestion, though: Maybe it's just me, but some of your responses came off a bit inflated/arrogant. People are going to ask questions about how to play this game -- If you are going to take the time to answer the questions here, a bit more kindness could go a long way.

C

This is all absolutely true. I 100% agree with every word of this post.

Well said sir.

[adamkomar]

This is all absolutely true. I 100% agree with every word of this post.

Well said sir.

From your username, we can tell your opinion is obviously biased against speedsters and, therefore, can hold no weight in a discussion originally based on two speedsters. :p