E Bay price gouging

[Brokensaint]

Ok, so most of us already know this.
Anyone who doesn't, here goes...
Be very careful what you buy on E Bay... people will call anything rare.

A case in point:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3115392295

This is a link to a hawkman figure, mint in package, missing its head.
Missing its head.
Ultra rare!
$40 bucks!
Are you joking?

[Kid Zemo]

With a reserve price no less! Sigh . . . College Station - hmmmm.

Kid Zemo

[quixotequest]

Hey that Hawkman is truly rare because there is, undoubtably, few factory-defective headless Hawmen out there. But is it rare in the valuable sense? No. Most people only collect defects of which there were enough made to establish a "variant" figure of some kind, like the Pyro fig.

Of course he is using "rare" for it's connotative value rather than the obvious, which is irritating. Caveat emptor. Beats someone selling something worse: Challenger memorabilia jacked up in price because of the recent tragedy.

[Meepo]

Too funny! Glad no one bought it though!

[Noman]

Oh good grief !!!


Now, if that had been the legendary Black Wolverine Promo...


LoL

All the Best

Noman

[Darth Sabre]

What a Marooon! lol People will try anything to make some money!

[Torrion]

LOL:D

Now thats an auction.

Gives me an idea to try and flog my completely invisible Invisible Woman clix.

'What do you mean I sent you an empty bit of packaging, shes there, you've just got to try and find her.';)

[redherringj]

Please do not mock my auctions, you're scaring away potential buyers.

If you liked that, check out my extra rare Sentinal on a Man-Bat base! This is an ultra rare with a resever price of $50.

Bidding starts at $ .99...

[hair10]

I've seen all kinds of weird stuff like that on ebay. Or people just asking ridiculous prices for something (somebody recently had a "Buy it Now" for a LE Thomas Oscar Morrow at $39.95). There were no bids on that auction either.... people always speak loudest with their wallets.

[dmac7979]

I once seen an Anihilus fig that was sealed with an Ultron base on ebay and the guy wanted like 50 bucks for it. I almost threw up I laughed so hard.

[Ramplate]

Oh boy, I want a "complete" set of Heroclix all with missing limbs!!! Modders, send me your Exacto Knife victims!!!!:D ;)

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by dmac7979
I once seen an Anihilus fig that was sealed with an Ultron base on ebay and the guy wanted like 50 bucks for it. I almost threw up I laughed so hard.

On the other hand, I recently returned to Wizkids a Firelord figure, which (not sure, left the figure sealed) appeared to have the dial of some Firelord rarity, but the top of the base was Rookie Hobgoblin (base bottom was not orange, hence the suspicion the dial was accurate).

Definitely not worth $50, and definitely wouldn't pass legal muster, but the humor value of kicking serious boote with a 34 point "Hobgoblin" would be worth $10 to me.

[Ramplate]

Anyone want my RARE INVISIBLE VET ULTRON???

(An Ultron Vet base without a figure! Yes, I do have one!)

[AshenFang]

Mold me a translucent Ultron, like the Vet Invis Woman, and then you are talking. :D

Really, I can't really blame the guy for trying to make a buck.. or fourty..heh. If someone buys it, then so be it, it's their choice..

[Ramplate]

Originally posted by AshenFang
Mold me a translucent Ultron, like the Vet Invis Woman, and then you are talking. :D


No she's not really invisible, this one is!:D

How about a Blob - dressed as the Flash?:D (doesn't move any faster, but.....):D

[Aron]

I've seen people lie and use the wrong name for certain LEs.

Ex. People were trying to pass off LE 3 Nenora, as Raksor LE 4.

I also object to the fact that because One idiot is willing to pay a ridiculous price on ebay, the rest of us are forced to pay higher prices because of it.

There are collectible stores around who price by Ebay Highest price, then convert it to canadian funds and charge ridiculous amounts

Example: A store I'm aware of was selling Nightmare for 45 dollars ... and spiderman (black costume) for like 60 - with 14% taxes on top of that.

[hair10]

Originally posted by Aron
Example: A store I'm aware of was selling Nightmare for 45 dollars ... and spiderman (black costume) for like 60 - with 14% taxes on top of that.

Makes eBay itself seem reasonable!

[AshenFang]

Originally posted by Ramplate


No she's not really invisible, this one is!:D

How about a Blob - dressed as the Flash?:D (doesn't move any faster, but.....):D

Naa.. how about a Blob dressed like Psylocke? ;)

Heheh.

[AshenFang]

Originally posted by Aron
I also object to the fact that because One idiot is willing to pay a ridiculous price on ebay, the rest of us are forced to pay higher prices because of it.

There are collectible stores around who price by Ebay Highest price, then convert it to canadian funds and charge ridiculous amounts

Example: A store I'm aware of was selling Nightmare for 45 dollars ... and spiderman (black costume) for like 60 - with 14% taxes on top of that.

Ooo.. here's a nice little post..

I mean, I completely agree with you, I HATE when I'm looking at stuff on Ebay.. and all the sudden this guy runs out of my closet and FORCES me to bid on stuff, then he grabs my wallet and STEALS my money to go get the money order.. Man... someone needs to stop other people from Forcing us to buy things..

(Ehh.. whine some more, eh?)

[Badges2]

I've got a *Sealed* Super-Skrull if anyone whats to trade. He is the rare variant figure. This Super-Skrull has allied with Doom and is now dressed as a Doombot. He still has all the atributes of the Super-Skrull, but looks like a Doombot. Just wait until Reed Richards and that Cursed*TM of Dr. Doom* Fantastic Four come up to the Doombot thinking he's just a petty minion. Hahahaha.

This is a truely unique among uniques. Think about it. The Skrull ability allows them to change into someone else to fool their opponents. My *Mint-In-Package* Super-Skrull was a very bad child who never listened to his parents. In his youth, he has very much in awe of the great Dr. Doom. His goal was to one day be as powerful as Doom. So, he'd always play pretend and transmogrify himself into Doom. His mom always warned him, "If you keep making that shape, one day you'll get stuck that way." She was all too right....

Moral of the story... "Don't transmogrify youself into the same shape to many times in a row." Oh yeah.. "And always buy sealed variants of Super-Skrull bases with Doombot figures." And.. umm.... pay Badges 100's of dollars for him. Umm..... and give him the winning lottery ticket.... and a Porsche or two....

[Marshal Law]

Originally posted by AshenFang

I mean, I completely agree with you, I HATE when I'm looking at stuff on Ebay.. and all the sudden this guy runs out of my closet and FORCES me to bid on stuff, then he grabs my wallet and STEALS my money to go get the money order.. Man... someone needs to stop other people from Forcing us to buy things..

While mostly being valid, eBay casts its net across the globe, and as a result hauls up a bumper catch of morons.

I've watched bidders fight for an item, driving its price up, when an identical item from the same seller with a lower "buy it now" price remains unbid.

*Many* times I've put a slightly higher than minimum bid on one of several identical items for sale by the same seller (usually the second or third in the list, just to avoid the competition of "bid on the first one I find" morons), had some idiot bid against me, and I just plop down the minimum bid on the next unbid item of the group. Net result, I still get the item for the minimum price (which, typically, is all the seller expected), and some other idiot coughs up a buck or two for the "priviledge" of "winning" the auction.

I've seen bidders drive up the price on an auction a week away from completing, when the same item at a much lower bid is 1/2 an hour away from completing, I've seen used items with a bid price higher than "buy it now" prices on the same item new, and I almost always see (especially with electronics) bids on items exceeding the prices listed by merchants via a simple froogle.com / Yahoo shopping / Amazon price check.

So, yes, its ridiculous to claim one is "forced" to pay higher prices because of eBay morons. If the item doesn't usually go for that high, don't bid that much - try for the next one (very few items are so scarce as to not pop up again in a few days/weeks). If the item just doesn't seem to go for any cheaper, maybe one's view of its value needs upward adjustment. But that all doesn't counter the claim that eBay is infested with idiots.

[spitfire06]

I got in a booster an invisable woman that is literally invisable.
Its factory sealed and all thats inside is a vet. invisable woman base, no invisable woman.
You think I should save it, I mean can it be worth anything?:confused:

[Ramplate]

Originally posted by AshenFang


Naa.. how about a Blob dressed like Psylocke? ;)

Heheh.

Well, he was almost a Wonder Woman... My other two are going to be Fatman & Blobin, the boy blubber.

[AshenFang]

Originally posted by Marshal Law
So, yes, its ridiculous to claim one is "forced" to pay higher prices because of eBay morons. If the item doesn't usually go for that high, don't bid that much - try for the next one (very few items are so scarce as to not pop up again in a few days/weeks). If the item just doesn't seem to go for any cheaper, maybe one's view of its value needs upward adjustment. But that all doesn't counter the claim that eBay is infested with idiots.

While my post was completely based out of Sarcasm, in an attempt to point out the fact that no one is ever Forced to buy anything, HeroClix related for sure. It's a choice.

I have nothing against someone spending 200$ on a Rookie ManBat. If someone wants to, go ahead! They have the money, they are completely entitled to spend it in any way they wish.

The sellers, I can't blaim them a bit for wanting that money.

In the end, it seems to come down to those that are envious, bitter, or have something against these two groups above, because they have something, that the complainer doesn't.

It's times as these as the simple phrase, "Grow up." comes into application.

[Ironman44]

He can call it whatever he wants as long as he paid listing fees and did not sell it. Capitalism won the day on this one.

I for one love Ebay. It has allowed me to collect incredible things I would never have had access to otherwise.

[Danos]

Just remember, do your homework before you buy, check the feedback always before bidding, and look at other website stores other than ebay to compare prices. The website store I use doesn't charge for shipping, even if you buy only one figure from them. If the figure I want on ebay passes the store I shop at, then I just buy it from the store. The place is called myriadgames.com (sorry Mr. Moderator if I'm not allowed to post this shameful plug). They even gave me for free a Promotional Batman with my last order.

[Dave965]

Hmmm...I just got an experienced Nightwing with his left arm missing from the elbow down....the ultra-rare 'Stumpy' version???

I actually know some people who would try to sell this thing on e-bay, but I'm gonna save him, and use him...gave me an idea for all the lower end dupes I don't want....slightly mutilate them and use them to simulate 'Combat Damage'.

Ok, serious collectors can flame me now...lol...

Dave965

[Aron]

Originally posted by AshenFang


Ooo.. here's a nice little post..

I mean, I completely agree with you, I HATE when I'm looking at stuff on Ebay.. and all the sudden this guy runs out of my closet and FORCES me to bid on stuff, then he grabs my wallet and STEALS my money to go get the money order.. Man... someone needs to stop other people from Forcing us to buy things..

(Ehh.. whine some more, eh?)

Don't be ridiculous. I'm talking about Ebay as being a major source of abuse of the free market system. I'm talking about price fixing (via proxy bidders who are affiliated with the seller - and I Know it happens), artifical value and price inflation - creating a collectibles market as illusory as Enron, or the Internet company boom of the 90s.

Let's just say you have a job, and your job is 40 miles away and you Have to drive to get to it, because you've purchased a house and a car on the other side of town (simply because it was too expensive to buy a house close to your job). Now all of a sudden a gas company decides to start hiking the prices, for whatever reason, others see an opprotunity to hike the price to make a quick buck. Do you have a choice not to pay the artificially inflated price to buy the gasoline? Yes, but if you do - you don't have your job. Perhaps a harsh example, but its an example that we can relate to, and have a problem with. You would certainly complain if someone did that to you.

Certainly if you experienced California's energy crisis last year you would object to ridiculous electricity pricing (and don't tell me its possible to "make do" without electricity In an urban setting in this day and age). The only difference here is this is the collectibles market where it seems to be "A - Ok" to do that.

One person is willing to pay Highway Robbery prices, so the Rest of us are punished by/for their stupidity and expected to do so as well (see higher minimum reserves, stupid buy it now pricing, etc). This creates an artificial value for LEs and Uniques. What happens when the game stops production? We'll be left with a bunch of worthless plastic (only nice to have because we wanted it to play in the first place) - but forget collectible value, it'll drop like a stone.

Speculators artificially inflated the comic book market in the 90s, and they've been doing the same with CCGs and now with Heroclix. Ultimately it only hurts the market, hurts the companies producing product and hurts the consumer.

I want a set. Its my choice whether I attempt to buy my set, however, *I* don't set the prices the so called "free market" (read sarcastically) sets it. Except Ebay ISNT the free market. Ebay is only a small slice of it, that Everyone looks to, Assuming its what the real fair market value of something is. I am objecting to people referencing Ebay as if it is the holy grail for accurate pricing. It Isn't. Yet they're willing to use it for pricing.

I could bash you and be as bitingly sarcastic as you were, but I am a reasonable person. Not just another whiner, as you would like to think. But someone with a legitimate complaint about a serious flaw which impacts everyone who spends money anywhere (because Ebay is now the world's pricing barometer - as stupid as that is). Furbies, Tickle Me Elmo, Xboxes, Ps2s etc. I'm sick of this kind of attitude about pricing things. An Xbox costs what the little price sticker says - perhaps with a reasonable retailer markup. However when millions of Scalpers run out and buy it - depleting the supply so its impossible to find one in your own area - and with the Only intention of resale at inflated prices because ONE idiot on ebay was willing to pay a stupid amount for one Once, then there's a serious problem.

While it may not seem on the surface that harm is being done to anyone by "going for the cash" there are people who have bought into the game thinking that an Le is worth 150 bucks (because they looked at ebay, and saw bruce banner going for 150 dollars -artifically increasing the amount they're willing to pay for LEs etc). While some argue that you can just "wait for the next auction" the actual supply of LEs Uniques and even nonunique figures is slowly dwindling, especially with the retirement of CT. This means the longer you wait to get something at a price you're willing to pay, the less likely you are to get it. If you really Do want it, you will need to fork out While you can, or risk missing out on ever having a chance to get another one.

Some of you may say "well let your dollar do your talking, and hold back your bidding". Thats fine and dandy, and I do so. However hundreds/thousands of people (regular store owners, and consumers alike) flock around ebay pricing forcing up the prices anyway.

I realize these stores need to make money and they're free to charge what they want but i've seen stores rip off people so many times it makes me sick. Parents who go in and buy a unique for their kids talk to the guy selling unique nightmare for 45 dollars, get suckered (by a car salesman style store owner) and slap down 45 bucks buying something for their kid - Because they're led to believe that its worth 45 dollars, Because thats what someone was willing to pay on Ebay 6 months ago.

For those of you who think I'm envious and simply saying this because I don't have this or that: I am only missing one unique (who I have refused to buy off ebay and have negotiated a trade deal that i've waited nearly 3 months to complete locally) and I have the skills to win LEs, although I have bought some Simply because specific ones were Never made available at Any venue in my area. (won something like 25, and bought 7, at the lowest price I could get them - not counting LE wolvie or Owaw).

So this isn't a matter of whining because I don't have something, or can't afford to pay ridiculous Ebay prices. I have friends who, if they ever want to get an LE, are Forced to purchase through the secondary market because there are no tournaments within 2 hours drive of them, and insufficient players in their area to support regular tournaments. Their area doesn't have singles sales, and they need to go online to purchase their needs to finish their sets.. purchasing from vendors who rely on Ebay to set their prices.

In the context of the internet it may be tempting to dismiss someone elses views easily, especially if you're not willing to make the effort to even contemplate an alternate point of view. This is very easy to do since many people aren't willing to back up their assertions with Logic. I however have provided you with my views, my reasoning, and evidence that I have no need to "whine" about this. I'm simply asking the lemmings to stop jumping off the cliff. It will mean much more solid and reasonable pricing for everyone, or would you object to that?

I'm sure those of you who gouge/bid stupidly on ebay will, no doubt, continue to enjoy your continuing sales/purchases on ebay despite my reasonable discussion regarding how Ebay hurts the consumer. At the very least perhaps a few more will, at least, gain the wisdom to hold off on their bidding price for LEs more.

[Ramplate]

You can always send the pieces of a broken figure you get (all pieces recieved) - that is a factory mistake or shipping damage victim - back to Wizkids for a replacement.:)

[arsuf476]

Aron, while i apprieciate your view and frankly agree with it, there is not much we can do about it other than refuseing to pay inflated prices for figures, on a side note you may want to do some reading on just price theory, it was the economic system that was prevelant during the middle ages in europe.

[Earnan]

Aron-

We've had this argument before. Where is your proof that the CT LEs are getting retired? If you have proof, I'll concede the point. If you don't, don't base part of your argument about eBay pricing on an unsubstantiated rumor that as near as I can tell you created.

WarlordEarnan

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by Aron
I'm sure those of you who gouge/bid stupidly on ebay will, no doubt, continue to enjoy your continuing sales/purchases on ebay despite my reasonable discussion regarding how Ebay hurts the consumer.

I looked for your reasonable discussion but it wasn't there. Did you miss copying that part in?

In all seriousness, I'd rebut what you posted point by point, but I've got better things to do.

You have provided rhetoric without evidence in all of your assertions. Your understanding of market economics is weak at best

Question 1: object X sells for $10 on EBay 90% of the time. What price should store Y sell it for in a brick-and-mortar location? Here's a hint: more than $10.

Question 2: Why is this the case? How can store Y remain competitive with EBay?

You have used the fallacy of the excluded middle in your false analogy between Heroclix, comics and electricity.

You have used the ad hominem argument ("those of you who...stupidly....").

In short, you're wrong.

[Aron]

Earnan - I was not referring to the CT LEs being retired, but the CT set (and hence CT Uniques)

Arsuf - this sounds interesting, do you have any recommended references i could look at?

Scowlingone - I will respond to your comments tommorrow

[AshenFang]

Aaron.. well, nothing personal.. I started reading your post, and I read.. then I scrolled down! My God! Heh.. =p

Anyways, from the parts I did read. First I would never take a job in a City I didn't live in again! (Don't like driving, really.)

But that wasn't the point, eh.

How else are we supposed to set value upon these LEs? Draw Lots? I'm personally selling to the highest bidder. The decent ones, like Creed, and Banner bring in plenty of bidders, because they are rarer. In the end, making the Supply lower, and the demand higher, in the end, increasing the over all price.

Actually Ebay is a good place to check prices. Even if you don't like it, it does show what people are willing to pay for things. And that's what sellers are looking for.

And no.. I don't think you could be as bitingly sarcastic as I!;)

Those who have the money, spend it as they will. And there will always people that in the end, complain of such.. I don't see the point. HeroClix is a hobby, not a deep seeded need. It's all about what you value more, that Bruce Banner LE sitting on a shelf(Or whatever you people do with them.. I'm not asking.. so don't tell.. eww..:D ) or that 150$(or however much)spent elsewhere. Some don't have the funds to get these rare peices. That's part of life.

When I go to get my new car, I assure you I will NOT have the funds to go get one of those Rare, rebuilt Cobra whenever it was originally build cars! I could complain, but I don't. It's part of life. We pay for the extra's in life. Everything on Ebay falls under such.

[Spock]

Example: A store I'm aware of was selling Nightmare for 45 dollars

That seems hard to believe.
(Not that they had Nightmare for $45, just that someone would actually buy it for that much ;-))

I agree, ebay gets nutty sometimes...you see people offering things at more than they'd cost new, people running up the prices for no reason, etc..

Someone in this thread complained about high buy it nows....who cares? Unless there's a reserve (which is annoying), it'll go away as soon as you bid anyway.

Speaking of which, I wonder if anyone ever did a study on the effects of buy it nows on ebay auctions. I once had an item up with a minimum bid of $150 or $180, and somebody did the buy it now of $220 on the last day.

[arsuf476]

For just price theory i know it is mentioned some in aquinas, but that is a little to vague. Its been awhile since i last read about it, you could check some online resources for medieval economics or history.

[arsuf476]

scowlinggone, interesting and somewhat fun to see the use of aristotlean logic on this board, while i would agree aron does use a false analogy and an ad hominen argument I do think his end conclusion is true. Ebay like most auction houses do set the price to some degree of brick and mortar stores, this occurs in many other products, vintage wine prices are set by the auctions at sotherbys and christies, as are most art prices. Heroclix dose share collectiablity with art and wine, among thousands of other objects. What seems to be at issue is Aron seems to be argueing by accident or by purpose against a market economy. I mentioned just price theory, in short it is the idea that one should not charge more for a product then its cost to them and a markup that allows them to make a fair profit, this I think is a far better method then a market economy. That aside, before ebay when magic was really big, you wanted a card you went to a store and some of the cards would go for 100's of dollars, now magic while making a comeback is not near as big as it was in the mid ninetys, I would have to check if magic card prices are up substaintially. With ebay let the buyer beware becomes more so then in a brick and mortar store. Yes many brick stores will charge you ridiculous prices or gouge you. Ebay though has less regulation, if you get gouged by a store you call the better business b. Ebay is not likley to be effected by such a call. Ebay is mostly unregulated and such a large corporation that complaints will fall upon deaf ears. Bascially I am argueing that more regulation is needed in order to fix some of the problems with ebay, the other problems are in general ebay leaves the customer to fend for him or herself, but then many stores seem to follow the pricing on ebay. The pricing on ebay may or may not reflect a global marketplace, but a traditional store is usually priced by its market to a degree, ebay uliminated that. Now regardless of the income in your area all collectables will be priced similarly, which has been occuring to a degree but now occurs more often. While i do see ebay reducing the prices on some figures it raises it on others. Ebay seems to be doing to the collectables market what auction houses do for wine and art, the highest bid becomes the retail selling price, and that is a problem regardless what area it occurs in. Money and have alot of it becomes essential in order to obtain certain products in a manner that is more acute then before.

[Aron]

Originally posted by scowlingone
[B]

I looked for your reasonable discussion but it wasn't there. Did you miss copying that part in?


Hardly. I made assertions based on my personal feelings on the issue, in a tactful and reasonable manner, and tried to back up what I could with examples and illustrations of the problem. That is much more reasonable than some of the arguements I've seen on these boards where people resort to name calling, etc.


You have provided rhetoric without evidence in all of your assertions. Your understanding of market economics is weak at best


This statement is little more than rhetoric of your own. Did you neglect/overlook the fact that I mentioned at least one brick and mortar store was using Ebay as a pricing meter and charging ebay prices on Nightmare, Spiderman and other uniques? Claiming that my understanding of market economics is weak without actually providing evidence or actually knowing what my background and knowledge of economics is, is rhetoric of your own, without evidence - exactly what you accuse me of.

My understanding of market economics has led me to disagree with the practices used, as I object to the concept of rampaging naked greed, and its destructive influence on the world economy, and the world in general.


Question 1: object X sells for $10 on EBay 90% of the time. What price should store Y sell it for in a brick-and-mortar location? Here's a hint: more than $10.


Is that so? Why is this the case? Ebay isn't a discount clearing house. It is an auction house, where pricing goes up according to willingness and ability to pay. Are you saying that items on ebay are chronically undervalued and sold under cost? I seriously doubt that, especially in the case of collectible goods like heroclix. While a brick and mortar store does have to deal with markup and similar costs, that does not mean that the actual item value on ebay (which is as much as 50 to 75% inflated over what a local store would usually charge - Without the influence of ebay) is what a store would need to charge to make a reasonable profit.

Ebay is artificially indicating to the whole world what people are willing/able to pay for many items, how many of them are available, reflecting what a small minority are actually willing/able to pay, and only a small fraction of the actual supply. This creates false demand and a false sense of supply, creating Inflation. This inflation creates a false sense in store owners of popularity and demand and can cause them to overextend themselves purchasing the product, causing a domino effect if the product Doesn't sell - eventually it stabilizes, but it can cripple or financially hurt many businesses and consumers in the interim.


Question 2: Why is this the case? How can store Y remain competitive with EBay?


1. Because people are ignorant of Ebay pricing OR
2. Because of convenience issues (including personal security ex. credit cards) OR
3. Because the local store is more reasonable and IGNORES Ebay pricing and does not charge inflated prices, but meets the pricing requirements of its local area - an increasingly Rare occurence in a now Improperly globalized marketplace.


You have used the fallacy of the excluded middle in your false analogy between Heroclix, comics and electricity.


I am not talking about excluded middles at all - ebay itself is a middle man. I am talking about the middle man aka brick and mortar stores looking to an unreliable barometer for value, and reselling at inflated prices, creating the potential for a market crash along the lines of say, Enron. (see arsuf's post) Ebay is inflating/affecting World prices willy-nilly, interfering artificially with local market pricing, unintentionally. Because of Ebay Mom and pop in Tucson Arizona are more likely to charge the same price as some Big Generic Gaming Store in Kosovo as some store in London, etc etc. Pre Ebay, more regional pricing differences existed, protecting smaller economic areas from fluctuations in a rather unstable market. Ebay has made everything more volatile in terms of initial pricing, while branding collectibles with a price that becomes static across the board in every individual market. And this is creating an artificial skew in the world market, which can lead to a value collapse if overzealous speculators and collectors allow themselves to get caught up in bidding wars, or unsuspecting collectors allow themselves to get taken by ebay pricing.

While you are free to disagree with me, I find your "arguement" flimsy, without any real supporting evidence - exactly what you accuse me of. Simply because you disagree with my point of view, I am incorrect... an interesting position, I'm sure.

[Aron]

Originally posted by arsuf476
Yes many brick stores will charge you ridiculous prices or gouge you. Ebay though has less regulation, if you get gouged by a store you call the better business b. Ebay is not likley to be effected by such a call. Ebay is mostly unregulated and such a large corporation that complaints will fall upon deaf ears.


A problem with this now is, even if you call a better business bureau regarding your feeling that you've been gouged, the store owner may simply point to ebay and claim justification for his prices there.


The pricing on ebay may or may not reflect a global marketplace, but a traditional store is usually priced by its market to a degree, ebay uliminated that. Now regardless of the income in your area all collectables will be priced similarly, which has been occuring to a degree but now occurs more often. While i do see ebay reducing the prices on some figures it raises it on others.

Thats Exactly what I have a problem with (at least part of it).

Arsuf: As for arguing against a market economy, I have serious issues with All economic models currently available, and I believe reforms are neccessary to protect consumers and corporations in general to prevent out of control inflation which could set the entire globe back 5000 years.

[Thorgrin]

I agree with you in some part, however I think you miss the mark on a couple of things.

If you think ebay prices are jacked up, check out Scrye and other magazines that try to assign value to collectibles (whether it's magic, heroclix or whatever), THEN check out the prices on ebay. On average, the prices on ebay are lower.

It's not the store's responsibility to inform the customer on how much a figure is really worth. Period. The CUSTOMER needs to do their homework and research. I'm not going to fault the store for pricing a Nightmare at $45 if people are willing to pay it. It's called SUPPLY and DEMAND.... Maybe in that region he's that rare or people don't care (i.e. have the money and want the convience) or don't trust the internet or don't trust the postal service or have heard horror stories about sellers on ebay not sending the product (or other websites). There's a lot of factors there that you're not seeing. Yes, I can go online and either trade (via this forum) or buy it for significantly less or I'll do my homework and when I go into the store I'd try to haggle and say "hey, the last 10 completed auctions of Nightmare went for $15. I'm willing to give you $20 for it." It's kind of like buying a car. Are you going to pay sticker for it? Or are you going to check around and do research. Different price to be sure (thousands vs. a few bucks), but if it bothers you that much, then the principle is the same.

As for buy it now prices, yes, they are substantially higher than normal. This is for convience and nothing else. A person may not want to wait a week, has no local store and might find a better deal on ebay than, say, gathering ground or some other website. The fact is they want the figure and they want it now. Obviously the price is probably a factor, but if they're willing to shell it out, then that's their perogative. Maybe they don't trust the other person's auction that's ending in 30 min, maybe they like the feedback that the other person has. Again, several factors play into this. If you want to talk about price gouging, go to a convenience store that charges you $1.00 (or more) for a 20 oz soda. I can go to the grocery store and get a 2 liter for that price! Yet people buy the 20 ozs all the time. It's called convenience..

Now I have to admit, there are probably a few sellers that aren't on the up and up and may have someone "affiliated" with them. I'm hoping that's a rarity, but no way to really prove it. I know I've put things up on ebay and someone in my same city bid on my auction (actually twice now). Would I be accused of artificially bumping my auction up? I hope not as they were 2 people that actually won the item and paid for it, but I can see how people would think differently. Now if it's a trend of the same user, bidding on the same Nightcrawler every time (how many Nightcrawlers does a person need) and jacking the price up without winning everytime, you'd probably have a case. Again, I just hope it's more of a rarity than common place.

As for being "punished" by buying at the higher prices, come on now. I've seen completed auctions on a lot of different figures and there are generally a high/low of figures. Some at $1 don't even get bid on of figure (say vet ultron) and another one that ended a day later went for $2.50. That is totally not the seller's fault, again that's the result of the bidder's either not paying attention or not doing their own research.

Are some pieces jacked up on prices, yep, not going to deny that at all. Some of that is hype (like Nightcrawler) and some of it is rarity. It's the same here on trading. How many times have you seen a post in the trading section of people wanting 2 or 3 uniques for a nightcrawler? Or a post that someone has a LE bruce banner and looking for the best deal they can get? The principle is the same.

Personally, I think the whole argument of "Ebay as being a major source of abuse of the free market system" is a joke. I have bought other items (non-collectibles) for half off or MORE than the retail, even including shipping to the total. I just did my research and didn't take the offer of some of the other sellers and their higher prices.

Originally posted by Aron


Don't be ridiculous. I'm talking about Ebay as being a major source of abuse of the free market system. I'm talking about price fixing (via proxy bidders who are affiliated with the seller - and I Know it happens), artifical value and price inflation - creating a collectibles market as illusory as Enron, or the Internet company boom of the 90s.

Let's just say you have a job, and your job is 40 miles away and you Have to drive to get to it, because you've purchased a house and a car on the other side of town (simply because it was too expensive to buy a house close to your job). Now all of a sudden a gas company decides to start hiking the prices, for whatever reason, others see an opprotunity to hike the price to make a quick buck. Do you have a choice not to pay the artificially inflated price to buy the gasoline? Yes, but if you do - you don't have your job. Perhaps a harsh example, but its an example that we can relate to, and have a problem with. You would certainly complain if someone did that to you.

Certainly if you experienced California's energy crisis last year you would object to ridiculous electricity pricing (and don't tell me its possible to "make do" without electricity In an urban setting in this day and age). The only difference here is this is the collectibles market where it seems to be "A - Ok" to do that.

One person is willing to pay Highway Robbery prices, so the Rest of us are punished by/for their stupidity and expected to do so as well (see higher minimum reserves, stupid buy it now pricing, etc). This creates an artificial value for LEs and Uniques. What happens when the game stops production? We'll be left with a bunch of worthless plastic (only nice to have because we wanted it to play in the first place) - but forget collectible value, it'll drop like a stone.

Speculators artificially inflated the comic book market in the 90s, and they've been doing the same with CCGs and now with Heroclix. Ultimately it only hurts the market, hurts the companies producing product and hurts the consumer.

I want a set. Its my choice whether I attempt to buy my set, however, *I* don't set the prices the so called "free market" (read sarcastically) sets it. Except Ebay ISNT the free market. Ebay is only a small slice of it, that Everyone looks to, Assuming its what the real fair market value of something is. I am objecting to people referencing Ebay as if it is the holy grail for accurate pricing. It Isn't. Yet they're willing to use it for pricing.

I could bash you and be as bitingly sarcastic as you were, but I am a reasonable person. Not just another whiner, as you would like to think. But someone with a legitimate complaint about a serious flaw which impacts everyone who spends money anywhere (because Ebay is now the world's pricing barometer - as stupid as that is). Furbies, Tickle Me Elmo, Xboxes, Ps2s etc. I'm sick of this kind of attitude about pricing things. An Xbox costs what the little price sticker says - perhaps with a reasonable retailer markup. However when millions of Scalpers run out and buy it - depleting the supply so its impossible to find one in your own area - and with the Only intention of resale at inflated prices because ONE idiot on ebay was willing to pay a stupid amount for one Once, then there's a serious problem.

While it may not seem on the surface that harm is being done to anyone by "going for the cash" there are people who have bought into the game thinking that an Le is worth 150 bucks (because they looked at ebay, and saw bruce banner going for 150 dollars -artifically increasing the amount they're willing to pay for LEs etc). While some argue that you can just "wait for the next auction" the actual supply of LEs Uniques and even nonunique figures is slowly dwindling, especially with the retirement of CT. This means the longer you wait to get something at a price you're willing to pay, the less likely you are to get it. If you really Do want it, you will need to fork out While you can, or risk missing out on ever having a chance to get another one.

Some of you may say "well let your dollar do your talking, and hold back your bidding". Thats fine and dandy, and I do so. However hundreds/thousands of people (regular store owners, and consumers alike) flock around ebay pricing forcing up the prices anyway.

I realize these stores need to make money and they're free to charge what they want but i've seen stores rip off people so many times it makes me sick. Parents who go in and buy a unique for their kids talk to the guy selling unique nightmare for 45 dollars, get suckered (by a car salesman style store owner) and slap down 45 bucks buying something for their kid - Because they're led to believe that its worth 45 dollars, Because thats what someone was willing to pay on Ebay 6 months ago.

For those of you who think I'm envious and simply saying this because I don't have this or that: I am only missing one unique (who I have refused to buy off ebay and have negotiated a trade deal that i've waited nearly 3 months to complete locally) and I have the skills to win LEs, although I have bought some Simply because specific ones were Never made available at Any venue in my area. (won something like 25, and bought 7, at the lowest price I could get them - not counting LE wolvie or Owaw).

So this isn't a matter of whining because I don't have something, or can't afford to pay ridiculous Ebay prices. I have friends who, if they ever want to get an LE, are Forced to purchase through the secondary market because there are no tournaments within 2 hours drive of them, and insufficient players in their area to support regular tournaments. Their area doesn't have singles sales, and they need to go online to purchase their needs to finish their sets.. purchasing from vendors who rely on Ebay to set their prices.

In the context of the internet it may be tempting to dismiss someone elses views easily, especially if you're not willing to make the effort to even contemplate an alternate point of view. This is very easy to do since many people aren't willing to back up their assertions with Logic. I however have provided you with my views, my reasoning, and evidence that I have no need to "whine" about this. I'm simply asking the lemmings to stop jumping off the cliff. It will mean much more solid and reasonable pricing for everyone, or would you object to that?

I'm sure those of you who gouge/bid stupidly on ebay will, no doubt, continue to enjoy your continuing sales/purchases on ebay despite my reasonable discussion regarding how Ebay hurts the consumer. At the very least perhaps a few more will, at least, gain the wisdom to hold off on their bidding price for LEs more.

[scowlingone]

"I am not talking about excluded middles at all - ebay itself is a middle man."

This was as far as I got before I was laughing too hard to type.

If you don't understand the fallacy of the excluded middle, there's no point in me wasting my time.

[GroovyBoy]

With my long career in academia and years of graduate-level experience, there's really only one way to settle this...Aron, Scowling....

<grabs a ruler>

Okay, whip 'em out!

[Thorgrin]

lol. whip 'em out...

[scowlingone]

The Kinsey Report tells me that I'm pretty average. I've only got a metal ruler, so I hope you don't mind if I pass on giving exact figures.

[GroovyBoy]

Come on, you live in Canada. With the metric system, it'll sound bigger...

[Jean_genie]

Hah hah!

Aron, there are a few issues (at least with me) that have not been addressed. For starters, the are people like myself who will almost always prefer to buy from local shops. I play guitar, and I buy all my guitars and guitar stuff from local shops, unless they don't have it in stock. Well, once I bought direct from the factory, but I knew a guy, and it was almost half off. Anyway, the point is that some people prefir to buy locally, assuming the prices are close.

However, many people don't have an outlet for that. I have an outlet for it at college(boxes, no singles), but when I go home, there's nothing near me. Nobody that sells clix, and nobody that sells any price guides. So if I were home and I wanted say ... an LE Doombot, I'd have no idea what it was worth, aside from what people pay for it on ebay. That being the case, I might bid a lot on it because I don't know that it's not worth that much. It's not always a matter of 'stupidly driving the prices up', so much as 'people screw up', basically. I just sold a Dasaad on ebay for $15, which surprised me. Especially because Buy it Now was about $12. Obviously somebody started bidding after Buy it Now was pulled, and decided it was worth $15 to him. That doesn't mean that every store and every trade needs to price Dasaad at $15, since that's more than he's worth to most people.

Lastly, we all know that in a capitalist system, prices are set according to what people pay. Prices will hopefully never be regulated on luxury items such as collectibles. Occasionally, things go for more, or even for less. But the basic price is set by what people pay. Scrye, fo instance, sets it prices based on what people pay for them in shops. Ebay is the same basic idea, although more consumers are typically ignorant about things.

Perfect example: guitars. "the Big Four" companies usually sell for more than they're worth (Fender, Gibson, Martin, and Paul Reed Smith) simply becauase they're the most heard names, and your average uninformed consumer doesn't realized that there are comparable or even better guitars at the same or lower prices, but with other names - often handmade. Thus, these 'off brands' often sell for much less than their value. A Gibson guitar and a similar handmade guitar might sell for a similar price in a shop, but on Ebay the Gibson almost always goes for more, because the customer just doesn't know any better.

Anyway, I got a little distracted. To sum up, Heroclix is a luxury item, and nobody makes you buy it, no matter how much anyone claims to be addicted. If you feel that Ebay forces you to spend too much, then buy from somewhere else. If you're like me and can't buy singles at any local stores, then you either shop around online (like in the TRADING FORUM), or you talk to your buddies about it. Ebay can go for too much, and sometimes it goes for too little .... but it's not the only market.

Lastly, ebay's not even a 'middle man'. If anything, ebay is a service that facilitates your sale. For ebay to be the middle man, you'd need to sell to them, and they in turn to the eventual consumer. Of course, that still wouldn't be what scowlingone is talking about.

[Aron]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
[B]I agree with you in some part, however I think you miss the mark on a couple of things.

If you think ebay prices are jacked up, check out Scrye and other magazines that try to assign value to collectibles (whether it's magic, heroclix or whatever), THEN check out the prices on ebay. On average, the prices on ebay are lower.

It's not the store's responsibility to inform the customer on how much a figure is really worth. Period. The CUSTOMER needs to do their homework and research. I'm not going to fault the store for pricing a Nightmare at $45 if people are willing to pay it. It's called SUPPLY and DEMAND.... Maybe in that region he's that rare or people don't care (i.e. have the money and want the convience)

I live in this region. Nightmare goes for 15 dollars at every other retailer selling singles. There are 3 other stores within 10 minutes of this location, and he STILL charges 45 dollars - Because thats what it went for on Ebay when he first priced it.


As for being "punished" by buying at the higher prices, come on now. I've seen completed auctions on a lot of different figures and there are generally a high/low of figures. Some at $1 don't even get bid on of figure (say vet ultron) and another one that ended a day later went for $2.50. That is totally not the seller's fault, again that's the result of the bidder's either not paying attention or not doing their own research.


I'm not referring to regular figures as for the most part those figures are Not the so called "ultra rare" uniques, etc. that people like to gouge on.


I have bought other items (non-collectibles) for half off or MORE than the retail, even including shipping to the total. I just did my research and didn't take the offer of some of the other sellers and their higher prices.


Note: NON collectibles.

[Aron]

Originally posted by scowlingone
"I am not talking about excluded middles at all - ebay itself is a middle man."

This was as far as I got before I was laughing too hard to type.

If you don't understand the fallacy of the excluded middle, there's no point in me wasting my time.

As your view seems to be clouded by your preconceptions regarding what is "fair" in a fair market, I see I would be wasting my time attempting to discuss this with you, much like arguing with someone with a monopoly about what is a fair price to charge people for something, when he can get away with charging whatever he wants.

[Aron]

Originally posted by Jean_genie
[B]
However, many people don't have an outlet for that. I have an outlet for it at college(boxes, no singles), but when I go home, there's nothing near me. Nobody that sells clix, and nobody that sells any price guides. So if I were home and I wanted say ... an LE Doombot, I'd have no idea what it was worth, aside from what people pay for it on ebay. That being the case, I might bid a lot on it because I don't know that it's not worth that much. It's not always a matter of 'stupidly driving the prices up', so much as 'people screw up', basically

I myself prefer to buy locally whenever possible, 3 dollars canadian will get me most Vet figures, a buck for rookiees etc. That being said, there are Too Many People who Don't know what something is really worth, especially when it comes to LEs and uniques (in part because Wizkids doesn't openly release how long they plan on circulating the figures, etc). Often parents, buying for their kids, who don't research these things - because they're not collectors, and not familiar with collecting - wind up getting ripped off, that leaves a bad taste in their mouths and can often result in those kind of grassroots people getting out of the game.


Lastly, we all know that in a capitalist system, prices are set according to what people pay. Prices will hopefully never be regulated on luxury items such as collectibles. Occasionally, things go for more, or even for less. But the basic price is set by what people pay. Scrye, fo instance, sets it prices based on what people pay for them in shops. Ebay is the same basic idea, although more consumers are typically ignorant about things.


I understand this, but what needs to be considered is the actual size of the community. There are probably only a few thousand Heroclix collectors out there, far less than I would hope for... While I appreciate that these items are priced according to what people are willing to pay, there are people who base All their prices off of ebay's Highest sale, not its average sale, not its regular price, but its Highest one. This is unreasonable, and ridiculous, only a very few people are willing to pay X dollars for such and such a fig, and yet after those X people have made their initial offers and even gotten the figs they wanted, the figure's cost is STILL far higher than it would be normally.


To sum up, Heroclix is a luxury item, and nobody makes you buy it, no matter how much anyone claims to be addicted. If you feel that Ebay forces you to spend too much, then buy from somewhere else. If you're like me and can't buy singles at any local stores, then you either shop around online (like in the TRADING FORUM), or you talk to your buddies about it. Ebay can go for too much, and sometimes it goes for too little .... but it's not the only market.


As a luxury item, I understand its prices are going to be higher than regular things etc etc. As for the trading forum, trading is something I am Not comfortable with online for the most part, as I have had bad experiences in the past. I do trade with my buddies, but consider this:

I buy a "lot" case, half case or whatever - I get however many uniques I can out of that. If I want any more uniques, or a full set I'm going to have to trade, which I do locally, and finish off most of it. I then try to fill in my set... here's where ####py distribution comes into play... if you get shafted (consistently as some people seem to do) you'll have No uniques to trade (certainly not if you're trying for a set), and in my area at least, the number of people who buy full or half cases makes it impossible to trade my nons for any uniques at all. Even if I do have uniques extra, I'm often in a position where everyone already has those uniques and doesn't want them, or people want them but don't have uniques I want, or could even trade to get what I want. Now I may make an offer to one of my friends to purchase their LE or Unique or whatever... Without even a second's thought, without ANY hesitation - the first words out of their mouths will be: "Well it was going on ebay for.."

If I go to my store owners and ask them what they'll sell me a unique for, most of them are reasonable, however I Always hear "Well on ebay.." At least Once in conversations with them about the price of whatever unique.

Ebay is not the only market, but it seems to have a Huge influence on pricing across the whole world. Almost Every weekend I go to a tournament and I hear "Did you see bla bla on ebay!?!?"

Its kind of like online sites like say Penny Arcade, Fark, The Onion or Megatokyo.. they seem small and not to have a large following or anything, but then you talk to a few people from this country or that one, and a few more people, and suddenly it seems like Everyone around half the world knows about the site, or has at least heard of it. I know people from Canada, the US, Europe, and Asia who are familiar with these sites.

Its also like that joke email which you see one week, then two weeks later from someone else, then 3 weeks later from another person, then four weeks, then 5 weeks later yet again... and when you talk to the people who were sending you the jokes, they ALL had gotten it from the same source, all of them had thought it was right or funny or whatever and passed it on. Kind of like product seeding campaigns for things like running shoes.

Not that I have a problem with that, but perhaps you can see what I am concerned about from that?

[Thorgrin]

Well that store is trying to "gouge" the customer, however, again it comes down to someone doing their homework. Even if I didn't have access to ebay and I didn't talk to people regularly, I'd have a really hard time paying $45 for one figure. I'd go to those other stores you said were close by and make sure that's the going rate. If not, then I would probably buy it for $15 (basically 2 boosters, but guaranteeing I got what I wanted) AND since the other store's figure was $45, I would never go back. That and eventually the guy is going to take a hint that no one is going to buy at that price on a regular interval. So he's going to have said figure(s) in his inventory and he'll have to pay taxes on inventory at the end of the year. The price for that figure will probably steadily go down as more are produced, or interest in the game goes down (I hope not, but like all games, the interest fades after time) and instead of selling at a reasonable $15 a piece, now he'll only be able to sell them for $7-8 a piece. Depending on how many he has, that one time $45 sell (if he was even able to sell it) wasn't such a good idea.

It's called bad business and has really nothing to do with ebay. If I was living in your area, I would NEVER go back to that store. I wouldn't support it with my money because I would feel that the owner(s) was trying to rip me off. It wouldn't make me not want to bid on Ebay because I know for a fact that the $45 someone paid for a Nightmare isn't the normal price and the median price is around $10-15.

[ducko5]

All your fallacies about preconcieved middlemen are oblique when contextualized by the appearance of a fair market phallus. Your argument about aristolean constronsticators only proves my point, I.E., ergo, therefore, as such, to wit, outwit, my analysis of the hyperbole ejaculating from cerebral pretentions gives brick and mortar nightmares for $45. That some drooling uneducated idiot circa 6 months ago, or -0.5 years ago, extricated the alloted sum from either his nasal or, if I may, anal orrifi, only proves that a similar sum seems to have gone missing from YOUR OWN wallet! I have thus implied by use of extended verbal attributation that the entire issue is altogether cromulant.

[RavenProject]

I live in this region. Nightmare goes for 15 dollars at every other retailer selling singles. There are 3 other stores within 10 minutes of this location, and he STILL charges 45 dollars - Because thats what it went for on Ebay when he first priced it.

Has he been selling several Nightmares at that price, or is the same one still sitting on his shelf from when he first priced it?

That should tell you a lot right there.

-J

[Aron]

I haven't gone back to find out if he's still trying to sell the thing

And no, I wasn't stupid enough to buy it. I was however, incensed I had to waste a trip there because he had been unwilling to tell me what Uniques he had available over the phone. I've also advised others to avoid his store.

Ducko5: Er... This is an all ages forum

[Thorgrin]

I can see your point to a degree Aron, that yes ebay MAY/MIGHT set some prices for figures (uniques/LEs/etc), but it provides an average price. It is also a good reference tool for customers as well as sellers. Personally if I went by the magazine prices, I wouldn't even try to buy them and just buy cases because in the long run, it'd be cheaper and I'd be able to sell my extra uniques and make up for the price of the cases.

The reason why people reference ebay is because it's the best known place to get updated information on prices on these little plastic figures. I haven't even bothered checking other auction sites or even websites to see if their figures are cheaper because it's easier for me to find more closed auctions on figure x (say unique batman) there than it would be to do research on 15 different websites.

Now I will wholeheartedly agree about trading locally and people using ebay as an example. My argument to the other person I'm trading is this. Look, you can either go buy the unique you need and then sell off this unique or we can try and make an even swap. Personally if I don't own a Unique Wasp and I have an extra Vision, I'll probably trade straight up. Yes, I'm aware that Vision goes for more, but it's a lot more hassle to put the piece up on auction, then package the thing, hope the person pays, get to the post office, etc, etc, etc. You can use it somewhat if it's something really hard to find in that area (although Nightcrawler seems to be hard to come by in lots of places), but again it's a perogative of the trader.

Yes, parents may not do the research, but as a parent, I can still make an informed choice. I can pay $45 for one figure OR I can buy 6 boosters for $42 and get 24 figures. OR I can get one video game which the whole family can enjoy... OR.... See where I'm getting at? Some parents, you are correct, will bite the bullet and buy the figure. Like you said, however, if they found out they got ripped, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth and guess what. That store just lost more potential customers. Yes, they got a one time big profit, but ya know what? $40 vs. $100s in the years to come is not much of a trade off.

[ducko5]

Aron: An all ages forum?!? No wonder they let you crazy kids in! (ahh, to be young again...)

[Aron]

Hey, not all of us can be over thirty! :P

[ducko5]

okay, you got me, I admit it. I'm not over thirty. But I'm CLOSE! So close... so close...

[Aron]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
The reason why people reference ebay is because it's the best known place to get updated information on prices on these little plastic figures. I haven't even bothered checking other auction sites or even websites to see if their figures are cheaper because it's easier for me to find more closed auctions on figure x (say unique batman) there than it would be to do research on 15 different websites.

Yea yea, I know that

I wouldn't have a problem with people referencing ebay for prices if the First one on ebay wasn't always the one people decided to price from (and thank god, at least in most cases so far it isn't - but still, the average cost seems to have jumped as a result of the pricing). I find that a month or 2 months after a set has come out the prices are actually sane and reasonable.. its just idiot retailers like that one, who by some unbelievable miracle can Get Away With charging those prices AND stay in business that Really gets me riled. He's still in business, and this has been his business practice for nearly 20 years.. so he Has to be making money somehow...

I apologize to anyone on this thread who I may've offended but this is just one of those things that really drives me up a wall, partly because of business men like that one, partly because of distirbution issues. Partly because of all the incidental fallout that I know happens because of people like that business man. (yes I'm still young and idealistic ><)

[Thorgrin]

geez, I'm technically over 30 (like 11 months) and almost 31.. Hmmmmm. Ya guys trying discriminate against us old fogeys? Eh? Don't make me break out my walking cane sonny!!!

:p

[cyberdragon]

Well,

I'll be honest. I haven't read ALL the posts on this thread in their entirety. Not enough time. But the subject is of interest to me and I thought I'd comment a bit from my own experience.

I have been dealing on eBay since 98. I'd say that most of the times, eBay prices are lower than guide or local store prices. And that includes shipping, exchange rate, customs, etc.

I believe most comic shops price most of their comics based on guides such as Overstreet or Wizard. Sometimes even above guide based on local demand/rarity issues. And they have fixed fees to contend with.

In the case of HeroClix - and I have only my local comic shop as a reference here - most prices for REVs are a bit more than eBay but sometimes still worth it for just one fig because of S&H. Uniques have been priced fairly and pretty much at par with eBay.

So not all comic shops use eBay as the ultimate guide. eBay prices are certainly factored in but there are other influences as well.

When someone tries to jack prices, locally or on eBay, I think it has more to do with perceived value and sales arguments than fairness or market equilibrium.

Some people will pay a tremendous amount of money for Near Mint or CGC comics because the present value, and often future value, is perceived to be higher. People will pay less than Guide for a Fine but more for a Near Mint. To me, that's strange. But it's their perception.

I think the same goes for HC figs on eBay. Some folks will pay large sums for certain figs perceived to be rare or hard to get. And maybe it is for them in their local market. If they're willing to do it, let them.

As for me, I shop and compare and usually end up paying reasonable prices. Whether on eBay or locally. It is my belief that great deals can be made on eBay. You also get alot of poor souls being suckered into over-spending for some items. But this is not because of eBay. This is consumer behavior and it existed before eBay and it will 50 years from when eBay is replaced by something else.

My .02

[GroovyBoy]

Okay, this is getting silly. Aron, you hate this one store in particular and other places like it because they charge way too much for HeroClix. I think everyone has figured that out by now. You blame it on eBay. I think everyone has figured that out by now. Can we move on?

[AshenFang]

Anyways.. I love Ebay.. love everything it stands for and what it allows me to do.:D

Where else am I going to offload some Vintage Star Wars Figures? Random Magic Cards, and assorted other $100+ items with a click of my mouse! Sure there's other places, but nothing with the traffic that Ebay brings, therefore making it more likely that there's a buyer for my product..

In the end.. it's like this with me..

Heroclix, little plastic guys.. They aren't a NEED in life.. ..I'm sorry if you don't get everything you want in life.. (Well, not really sorry at all, but..let's go on.) That's part of life.. unless you are spoiled. ..if you want these 'extra 'perks' ..spend the money.. there's no reason to complain about it, really.

Otherwise..as the 'saying goes'...

Cry us a river...then build me a bridge, and Get Over It.:D

[Kode]

I got 2 firelord fig with 1 base still sealed! is that worth $50 - $100?

:D :) :p ;) :cool:

[Frontman]

Now, here's just my two cents worth.

I got to wonder of Aron is one of those guys that buy their cases from online distributors all the while complaining that the local game shop has the arrogance to charge the actual prices, instead of a markdown.

Yeah, that bastich who has to pay rent, his staff, the bills, and provide for his family. How dare he charge that much, when www. I-have-no-real-job-other-than-surfing-for-porn-game-distributor.com is selling a case at $5.00 over the cost that the store pays for, since he doesn't pay rent (especially to Mom and Dad, since they pretty much leave him alone in his basement "apartment") his staff is himself and his gerbil, bills (see Mom and Dad) and the dude has zero chance of ever having a family of his own, unless of course he gets the one girl in town that noone ever talks to pregnant after a drunken wild revelry after the local Star Trek convention.

That darn store owner. He has the audacity to charge that much while giving us a place to play.

But what do I know, I'm just a store manager.

PEACE!!!!

Tim "Frontman" Scallon

[brendanbrown]

well i got a cyclops in a big set of figs that is missing an arm, and either wizkids or the previous owner colored the stump red, it actually looks really funny! i could probly sell it on ebay for about 10-15 bucks but im gonna keep it and field it at some tourny just for the attention:cool:

[Aron]

Originally posted by Frontman
Now, here's just my two cents worth.

I got to wonder of Aron is one of those guys that buy their cases from online distributors all the while complaining that the local game shop has the arrogance to charge the actual prices, instead of a markdown.

Tim "Frontman" Scallon


I regularly buy from local stores, I've said that in my posts. In fact I prefer to buy from local stores to support the people who give back to the community. I have no problem with a reasonable markup, but when you're overcharging so far above what even other retailers in my local area are charging, well I'm not going to pay stupid prices.

Some stores in my area charge 10 - 10.50 for HC boosters 15 - 30 for uniques (actual prices), expensive for me but still pretty good. I don't buy by the case, I can't afford 400 dollars + for a case, even if there is a discount. I buy my half case at Full markup from one of the local retailers (they give me a bit of a break, free booster here or there) and its all good.

Other stores in my area charge 11+ to nearly 13 dollars each, plus 14% tax. Now it might be fair for them to charge those prices, if they really had expenses that they needed to cover, and a few of them do, but...

Both groups support the community, but the ones charging 10 - 10.50 are the ones that support the community a Lot more than the more expensive outlets, making a real effort to make gaming area available for tournaments and the like, while the others either have no interest in making gaming area available or can't or have a desire to do otherwise - (note: Its been rumored that the store with the 45 dollar nightmare reputedly "ran" a few tournaments last year specifically to get prize support to dump on ebay and hock - taking goods OUT of our community rather than supporting it, and being rewarded for abusing the system and their customers - its my understanding they're not allowed to run tournaments anymore).

So who would you support? A store that charges reasonable prices AND supports its customers and makes a good living for the owners? Or a store that charges high prices and doesn't make any effort to support its customers at all while they still make a good living for the owners?

I have no problem with people making a living off selling things at a reasonable markup, that covers the natural cost of business, and feeds their family, pays off their mortages and all that and gives them a decent income so they can save money and make a reasonable profit. In fact I've often advised people who wanted to form their own internet businesses simply to get those huge discounts not to, to protect the GOOD companies in my community. The Mom and Pop stores in my community have the good sense to know that to remain competitive they have to be willing to go an extra bit, make their shop more personal, etc and actually make a really good effort when it comes to treating a customer right. They're the stores that get my business, and consumer loyalty. I dont think anyone would have a problem with that.

My issue isn't entirely related to most of my local retailers (thankfully!), but is more complicated and related to the insidiousness of how ebay and the internet sneak into daily routine, a lot of people accept without questioning that EBay pricing is accurate when its not. (Even my Good retailers still watch it and it does affect their pricing decisions sometimes) Its like suspending one's ability to believe that TV is always right, or that newspapers never make mistakes and that if you read it in a newspaper, it MUST be true. Its getting increasingly hard to seperate hype from reality for a lot of consumers, and Ebay is a Hype engine if I've ever seen one.

As some people have said, Research prices before getting into bidding on ebay, Research the prices before setting a specific price in a happy median range. People listened to the hype about internet businesses and thousands and thousands of people got into it too fast, before the market was prepared or evaluated to see how workable it was.. now thousands of people are out of work, looking for other jobs, or have taken considerable financial losses.

Listening without thinking criticially to Ebay and other "indicator" price hype will create inflation, which messes up the economy/real price of goods creating unrealistic values. When the market folds, all those uniques/LEs people paid 50 dollars + on ebay will drop to a Real market value (like a stone), yes the rarity may still be there but it might not be enough to retain even a reasonable fraction of the value. Look at the IC LEs like knuckles etc, People were willing to spend 40 - 60 dollars on LEs like him last spring. If someone put one on ebay today they'd have a hard time selling it for over 5 bucks.

As for that "excluded middle" business, I've forgotten a good portion of the terminology I learned over 10 years ago, and prefer to speak in layman's terms for the benefit of people who either don't remember or wouldn't otherwise understand what was being talked about - as it affects them too.

[Tippman]

So we've determined that life isn't fair. Move on. I support my local shop with his prices. If decides to mark up a fig , so be it. If I need it I will by it regardless. Maybe the economy is vastly different in Canada but in the USA its supply and demand baby!

[bluca_doop]

last weekend i was at wal-mart and i saw a jango fett with his head missing. i thought it was pretty cool ( like the 12" maul that comes in half or the vader with removeable hand ) then i picked it up and the head was bouncing around in the package.

just thought that i would share

[bluca_doop]

ohh yeah i forgot to mention that i got a michael jon carter, thomas ocsar morrow, and a jervis tetsch all for 24.99 on ebay. there are plenty of deals to be found on ebay. you just have to be patient and wait until you get what you want at the price you want to pay for it. i love ebay!!

[strucker]

Yeah and don't forget to add on the $6 S&H charge most tack on after the sale to MAIL ONE HEROCLIX! All I got to say is patronize your local comics shop!!