About the interview with Jon Leithusser

[Netdragon693]

Ok, after reading that interview I'm not playing any more tournaments or whining about rules and such.

Read this:

"I like characters more than figures, so when I play I tend to use characters I like as opposed to the most effective characters. I'm sure that seems silly to many players, but I don't play the game to win, I play for fun. I don't care if I lose."

So, from this you can tell that the game is not being developed by someone that even cares about the tournament scene. So, the fact that to even play a tournament you need a 20 pages faq, a manual a PAC and a a compilation of web-rulings, the guy MAKING the game doesn't care because he doesn't play tournaments.

On a nutshell: you're playing the game on a way is was not developed for.

That's why firelord still rules, and probably there will be other broken figures and rulings that make no sense at all.

So forget any "revised rulings" or anything that makes the game more competitive, because the guy who is responsible for this only plays for fun.

come on!!!!!!!!!!!!,

Make Mine Heroclix

[captainspud]

I'm confused-- are you complaining or happy?

Personally, the idea that the game was designed with fun in mind makes me very happy-- 'cuz that's how I play.

[Netdragon693]

I'm complaining.

I like playing tournaments and all this keeps me from having a challenging, balanced game.

There would be no problem if the LE's came in the boosters, but that's not the fact.

Make Mine Marvel!!!!

[AshenFang]

Hello? Did you even read his post? He even covered the Firelord thing.

There's a large panel that play tests the game for balance, just because he cares for the characters themselves. (Showing that he's a fan!) I don't see the harm in that.

As for you not playing or whatever.. umm.. ok..don't, no one is forcing you.

If LE's came in BOOSTERS they would not be very LIMITED would they? :rolleyes:

Feh.. some people.

[Netdragon693]

Well yeah he considers the Firelord thing, but he didn't anything about it!!!!

He considers the taxi topic, but he doesn't do anything!!!

The problem is not about what he's going to playtest and develop for the NEXT expansions, is about the rules we already have and how it flunks when you try to fire at someone over outdoor blocking terrain and an adyacent enemy figure (multiple targets) with impervious using energy explosion and the shield ability with his attack score perplexed up and scoring knockback. How much damage does it deals?.

The fact that you have to look upon many pages of faqs and web-rulings is what I ranting about, the basics of the game weren't designed for that many interactions.

Make Mine Heroclix!!!!

[scowlingone]

Oh, frickin' wahh.

The game is balanced because the rules apply equally to all players.

Suck it up, already.

[JayThor]

Originally posted by scowlingone
Oh, frickin' wahh.

The game is balanced because the rules apply equally to all players.

Suck it up, already.
While I agree with your position, your delivery needs work. lol
Just because Mr. L likes the characters more than winning is not the end of the game. He isn't the only one with an opinion at WK, including ours posted here. I am sure all sources are taken into account before a decision about anything is made. He said he will address the taxi/Firelord thing, but he doesn't want to overreact, causing a violent outrage the other way. He will address it, playtest it, then decide. Be patient, the game is only about a year old. It is still growing and adapting.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by JayThor

While I agree with your position, your delivery needs work. lol

It was the straw that broke this camel's back; what can I say?

It appears to me that the game is improving with each release. Firelord doesn't need to be fixed; they can just bring in new figures that work well against Firelord (such as Phoenix). Taxis don't need to be fixed; new powers and new figures can be brought in that deal effectively with this tactic. It's like Magic; sure, they banned some cards in some forms of competitive play, but they also released new cards to effectively deal with older strategies.

When you get right down to it, the only way to play a tourney in such a way that everyone will be happy is to give every player the exact same team and have them play each other twice, with each player going first in one game. Then total the victory points over both games and declare a winner.

Although you'll probably get someone whining that it wasn't fair because they didn't know that Model X could use Tactic Y or the other guy's dice were loaded or the judge made a bad call or whatever.

There's no pleasing some people.

I've only gotten into the game in the last three months. I've won LEs in eight out of the ten tourneys I've entered. I've used Firelord exactly once. I used no flying models on several occasions, and even won a sealed tourney without flying or TK.

Every tactic has a counter. No team is unbeatable. No team is unbalanced, because everyone has the opportunity to play that team.

[Earnan]

Your example didn't give enough specifics. Depends on if he made the Impervious roll or not. If he made it, 0. If he didn't, he'd take 3. Or 4, if you knocked the characer off the building.

EE reduces damage to 1. SHIELD boosts it to 2. Perplex, if used on Damage, would do nothing since the damage is reduced to 1, and if used on Attack would have no effect on the outcome. So, the Impervious character takes 2 from the attack that targeted him and 2 from the attack on the adjacent figure. He would then roll Impervious to negate all 4 damage, which is done in one lump. If he makes it, there is no knockback because no damage is dealt. If he fails, the damage is reduced to 2, he is knocked back 2 squares, and he takes any knockback damage.

The FAQ is generally clarifactions, as are the Web rulings. There is a reason there are Judges at tournaments. Most any of us could make that ruling, and pretty quickly.

First of all, he did not design Firelord. The original lead designer did. WK will not go back and change the figure, it's one of the things they have said they will not do, same thing with banning figures. It's not gonna happen, so play the game the way it is.

I think that you are overreacting. He enjoys the game, and plays it for fun. That shows in the set that he designed (he did not work on IC, and only a little on HT) with CT having a number of fun to play characters, tournament effective characters, and they all were pretty true to the comics.

If you want him to start designing figures for tournament play, your gonna end up with MK, where each set only brings a few new viable characters to the tournament scene.

As far as taxiing goes, he's considering it. What do you want him to do, toss up some knee-jerk ruling? Would that make the game better? No, it would just make tournament play even more messed up and kill the usefulness of a number of characters, not a good thing in the long run for the game. He said they are going to work on it and see if they can do something. Since it's been like this since day 1, it's not like they just radically shifted the tournament scene on you. Things are remaining the same, again better in the long run.

Plus, if they do do a new set of rulings, you'd have to print them out. And you've already said that you feel you need to many rules documents for the game anyway.

WarlordEarnan

[Silverlynx35]

All I'm saying is "Thank God" he is into the fun aspect, not the cut-throat, cheese-fielding, LE-Hoarding, sulk-if-I-don't-win, tournament aspect. If Clix isn't "competitive" enough for ya, try something else. Go play Poker or something. Let the rest of us have fun playing a game we enjoy.

Just a thought
SL35

[CKent]

He probably doesnt care if he wins because he probably has a hundred Bruce Banners, Creeds, Dooms,...etc stashed away somewhere...I mean where is his motivation to go to tournaments if he doesnt need LE's...

Hell if I dont need the LE's I'd probably be fielding an all Rookie Thug unit to gang up on Doom and Thanos... now that would be fun

:p

[HalfassedNinja]

OH MY GOD!!!! Why the hell do people keep whining about Firelord!!! If you people can't handle when your opponent is playing The Little Matchstick That Could, go play a tiddleywinks tournament! For every strategy there is a counter strategy so think harder. If I see my opponent put a Bic Lighter on the table I laugh because I know he's not going to be around long enough to do anything worthwhile. I may lose one fig doing it, but usually I don't.

In reguards to an earlier post, The game wasn't developed just for the "tournament scene". It was developed to be played by everyone. It's not their fault if there are bloodthirsty bastards out there who field 3 Firelords, 2 Bullseyes, and a medic and call it strategy. Personally, when I play in tournaments, I make fun AND effective teams. Now I admit, I've used FL on occasion, but he was there as part of a theme (My "Intergalactic Trio" of Blastaar, Darksied, and FL), but he was NOT my main character. I knew he would probobly be the first one out, but My opponent panicked and after killing one of his figs, gave up. WTF!!!

All I'm saying is even if your in a tournament, HAVE FUN!!! Make fun teams that can win, Not cookie cutter teams that will win. You'll find the game to be much more enjoyable, and that's how the game was designed to be played.

The Ninja

[warden]

Originally posted by Earnan
WK will not go back and change the figure, it's one of the things they have said they will not do, same thing with banning figures.

WK both ban figures and they errata figures. Examples include promo Spiderman and Riddler. And whatever they have said, they can unsay. They banned deep water in MW tournaments (because it was broken). They changed magic levitation in MK (because it was broken). They could do something about Firelord or taxis (because they are broken) and you'd probably be first in line to say that this was now official and must be accepted, right?

Now it's good that they set the bar high for this kind of change but please don't say that it's impossible. In practise it has already happened. Many venues use no-dupes or just ban Firelord outright. And WK are fine with it.

Andrew

[HalfassedNinja]

Originally posted by warden


WK both ban figures and they errata figures. Examples include promo Spiderman and Riddler.

Promo Spidey/Batman- He was made before the rules were finalized. He doesn't have a green starting line (he has a green box, which could be confused with enhancemant) and he has BCF ON HIS LAST CLICK FOR CRIPES SAKE! They said any fig with promo on the base isn't tourney legalfor obvious reasons like this.

Riddler- They NEVER changed Riddler. There was a mistake in the printing that gave him support and Shapeshift instead of Mastermind and Perplex. This was errataed. Like when Pyro was made with an MoE base instead of Brotherhood.

[Melkoloran]

Riddler- They NEVER changed Riddler. There was a mistake in the printing that gave him support and Shapeshift instead of Mastermind and Perplex. This was errataed. Like when Pyro was made with an MoE base instead of Brotherhood.

I think that was his point when he said "WK both ban figures and they errata figures."

[HalfassedNinja]

Hehe, oops, didn't see the errata part. Sorry bout that. :D

[Melkoloran]

;)

[Earnan]

OK, OK... so you got me on a technicality...

WK will fix figures that were messed up.. by the printers. Those were not in-game mistakes, those were things that their factories messed up, and were fixed in subsequent shipments of the game. Pyro was supposed to be Brotherhood, and a couple of the new factories put the wrong team ability on him. He was shipped as both MoE and Brotherhood in the first days of the game.

Promo figures were never legal, and never will be. THe are promotional peices, basically from the beta-testing, before they finish balancing the game.


Warden, as a Judge, I have to be the first in line to say this change is official. You are the second person to throw the fact I'm a Judge in my face in three days. It's getting old. I can be a Judge, and have my opinions. I can express them too. I have some pretty strong opinions about the game, and I like to talk about it, and have intelligent discussions. Little attacks like that don't sit well with me. Don't go and call me a hypocrite because I do my job.

They could do something about Firelord and taxiing. In fact, I mentioned that htey are looking at the taxiiing issue. However, I honestly don't feel that they will do anything with Firelord. They aren't going to go and retroactively add 15 points to his cost. It's a bit late now to say it was a printers error.

As for WK being fine with house rules... they don't go and regulate that... yet. They are cracking down on that, though. They do not allow custom scenarios in MW tournaments anymore. They want everyone who is playing for a ranking to be on the same playing field. If they do a ranking system for HC, which may well be happening soon, expect to see the house rules disappear.

I'm done with these Firelord threads. People, you need to get in into your head that the companies history has shown they will not fix 1 figure because people think he is too strong. Deal with it. Figure out a way around him. Don't blame the figure for ruining the game, it's not.

WarlordEarnan

[Netdragon693]

Earnan,

As the starter of this thread I'd like to tell you that it's the initial topic was not whining about Firelord but about how one of the developers of Heroclik expresses how he doesn't think much of the tournament scene and that he prefers to play "interesting" armies.

I'm not sayin that playing for fun is bad, or that the fact that he personally likes to play for fun is bad. What I'm trying to say is that, as a developer of a complex game such as Heroclix, he must see all aspects of the game, being one of them the competititve side of it.

I've played from Warhammer to Risk, and what I feel is that WK is not giving Heroclix the same serious treatment they've given to MK or MW:DA. I strongly believe that, although the basic rules are good, they fail to asses the issues of timing and superpower interactions.

In a previous post (long ago) I proposed an order resolution order where superpowers, actions and damage calculations are sorted out claerly.

[Earnan]

I know you didn't bring up the Firelord whining, but you did mention his name, and you know what happens... :)

Seriously now though...

HeroClix was never intended to be as cutthroat as MK or MW. Because of that, maybe some of the rules are not as clear as they should be.

One of the first things to note is that there should be no timing issues. There are no 'instants' or 'interrupts' :) In general, the WK games follow an attacker first, then defender for resolution of anything. I will grant you that EE has been a problem, due to the timing of the reduction to 1 being changed. Some of that comes from the fact that the Head Judge for HeroClix has changed a couple times.

Most issues can be resolved with a little thought. I'm not saying you're stupid, my only point is that the rules are not wuite the mystery that people make them out to be. Yes, it requires a little deductive reasoning, but almost everything can be figured out.

Also, I would like to point out that while they have not said much, WK has eluded to some new stuff that will be happening with HeroClix tournaments. I think that once that happens a lot of the problems you percieve (which are valid points, I'm not trying to take that away... I've just seen to many questions that are impossible to answer that could easily be answered by actually looking at the FAQ :) ) will be dealt with.

Hope this helps, and thank you for explaining your problems calmly. All I can say for now is wait and see. By the end of March we should have some answers.

WarlordEarnan

[GroovyBoy]

Originally posted by CKent
He probably doesnt care if he wins because he probably has a hundred Bruce Banners, Creeds, Dooms,...etc stashed away somewhere...I mean where is his motivation to go to tournaments if he doesnt need LE's...

Hell if I dont need the LE's I'd probably be fielding an all Rookie Thug unit to gang up on Doom and Thanos... now that would be fun

:p

He gets one of each figure made.