Smoke Cloud.....

[Liquid Havok]

If incap can be used on two opponents by the saem guy, can a fig with smoke cloud or barrier create two barriers if they have multiple lightning bolts? It isn't an attack but just curious....

[Dexceus]

No on both of those. You have to give them move actions for those powers, not attack actions.

[trutildeth]

Smoke cloud is considered a "move action". Two lightning bolts won't allow you to move twice in one turn, ergo you cannot produce two smoke clouds in one turn.

Nice try, though.

[Liquid Havok]

I totally forgot about that requiring a move action. Thanks. So much for my Checkmate agent getting any real use......

[Wyldstaar]

Is this from an official ruling in the FAQ, because I certainly can't find it. The fact that a move action is required doesn't seem pertinent to the question. When one is making two attacks with multiple targets, you still only take ONE attack action. How is making two barriers with only one move action any different?

[Liquid Havok]

I couldn't find it in the faq either....it'd make smoke cloud and barrier much moire effective.

[Dexceus]

Originally posted by Wyldstaar
Is this from an official ruling in the FAQ, because I certainly can't find it. The fact that a move action is required doesn't seem pertinent to the question. When one is making two attacks with multiple targets, you still only take ONE attack action. How is making two barriers with only one move action any different?

When you are talking multiple lightening bolts, you are not making multiple attacks. You are affecting multiple targets with one attack. That is why there is only one dice roll made.

The only way to do more then one attack is with flurry.

[Wyldstaar]

Originally posted by Dexceus


When you are talking multiple lightening bolts, you are not making multiple attacks. You are affecting multiple targets with one attack. That is why there is only one dice roll made.

The only way to do more then one attack is with flurry.

I agree with everything you've said in the above quote. While you obviously disagree with me, what you've said here doesn't in any way contradict my own view, if anything it would seem to support it. How is affecting multiple targets with one attack action any different than creating multiple barriers with one move action?

[dasDarke]

You can only make one move in a turn (with one figure), so you can only make one barrier/smoke cloud. That's the reason. (One barrier = one move action)

If you have one arrow, you can only make an attack action which targets only one enemy figure. If you have more than one arrow, you can still make only one attack action but this time an multiple target attack action which targtes two or three enemy figures.

das Darke

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by Wyldstaar
Is this from an official ruling in the FAQ, because I certainly can't find it. The fact that a move action is required doesn't seem pertinent to the question. When one is making two attacks with multiple targets, you still only take ONE attack action. How is making two barriers with only one move action any different?

Making a barrier isn't an attack. The number of lightning bolts shows how many targets you may target with a ranged attack. Since making a barrier or smoke cloud is not an attack (ranged or otherwise), the number of lightning bolts doesn't even enter into it.

[double_a]

I'll back up scowlingone on this.

The lightning bolts can ONLY be used for ranged attacks. They specify how many targets you can hit with one ranged attack. Since barrier/smoke cloud are not ranged attacks nor do they target figures then they simply don't apply.

[JacinB]

I agree with the posts of scowlingone and Double_A. However, it would be nice to have an official clarification on this ...

And, while I'd love to have them tell me I'm wrong (my Checkmate guys would become far more useful), I seriously doubt that they will.

[Tsannik]

Ooo! I want to play, too!

I'll agree with scowlingone, double_a and jacinB

From the rulebook
All figures show 1, 2, or 3 lightning bolt symbols beside their range value. The number of lightning bolts is the maximum number of different targets your character may attack with a single ranged combat action
From the PAC
SMOKE CLOUD. This character generates a cloud of smoke or darkness. (Optional) Give this character a move action, but do not move him

There is exactly why the Ranged-Target icons (lightning bolt icons) cannot be used to make more than one Barrier/Smoke Cloud

Try and consider that to be the official clarification.

[Xanth]

I'll chime in too. The facts have been presented well and in my opinion no official ruling is needed. Laying down a barrier is a movement action and is not combat so the lightning bolts are meaningless.

You can lay down only one smoke cloud or barrier per fig per turn.

[Tsannik]

Xanth....

you were supposed to chime in and say that you agree with scowling one, double_a, jacinB, and tsannik...

See how long a list of judges we could've gotten all saying they back up the other judges....

I thought it was another forum thread game.

[Xanth]

"Xanth....

you were supposed to chime in and say that you agree with scowling one, double_a, jacinB, and tsannik... "


Who are these people? Never heard of them. Must be getting old and can't rememb...what?

[TheSpirit]

{edited out comments made redundantly redundant by my superiors}

So, what powers can be used with two or three bolts?

EE - yes
Mind Control - don't know; assume yes
Pulse Wave - don't know; assume no
Incapacitate - yes

All are (or can be) ranged combat actions. I've excluded RCE (which can't) and psychic blast (which can) because those are effects added to actions, rather than actions of their own.

A double MC would be interesting, but I can see it being ruled illegal for timing issues. I'd think they'd rule PW illegal because of redundancy - the two bolts is not two instances/attacks, but one simultaneous two-target attack which PW does anyway.

{more redundantly redundant redundancies removed due to redundancy}

[Tsannik]

Though you *claimed* to not know...

You were pretty much correct on this.

EE - yes
Mind Control - yes
Pulse Wave - no
Incapacitate - yes

Don't ask me about the timing issues.... I'm just passing on what was told to me. I guess timing wasn't a issue just yet.

[Funky Jett]

I'm not a judge... err, Envoy... but I play one on here.

I agree with scowling one, double_a, jacinB, tsannik, and xanth because I can.

[Mr. Furious]

However you could make multiple smoke clouds or barriers if the figure was in avengers, brotherhood , etc.

[Todosi]

Sorry, incorrect on the Avengers/Brotherhood abilities. They are used ONLY for actually moving figures, not powers that are move actions. Check the FAQ for that one.

Todosi

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by TheSpirit
A double MC would be interesting, but I can see it being ruled illegal for timing issues.

The new Elektra has two bolts and MC. She will be able to use MC on two different targets. There will be nothing different with multiple MC targets as there are now with multiple Incapacitate targets.

[Tsannik]

Well.. you could only make multiple Barriers/Smoke Cloud if you had multiple figures on your force that had these powers...


A figure can only make one Barrier/Smoke Could per action.
A figure is allowed only one action during a turn.

[JacinB]

Mr. Furious ... what?

No, see, they specifically state that the Brotherhood/Avengers/JLA team abilities can only be used for the purposes of moving. Just giving someone a move action but not moving them (ie: what's done with Barrier, Smoke Cloud, TK, etc.) does not qualify.

Second, the rules specifically state that the lightning bolts tell you how many people you can target with a single ranged combat action. They've got nothing to do with move actions.

So, either way, your interpretation is way wrong.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by Tsannik
Though you *claimed* to not know...Hey, I've been wrong before (I think), and I'm not a judge so I didn't want to suggest anything.
Don't ask me about the timing issues.... I'm just passing on what was told to me. I guess timing wasn't a issue just yet. Oh, boy. I can't wait for that stink to erupt on the boards. Think I'll avoid the boards for a week or so after this release. (moderators breath a sigh of relief)

[Tsannik]

Heh, though you've probably been told you were wrong....

just remember, I jumped on the Wildcard circle bandwagon when you brought it up. And for the record, I'm still on that side. Should never have made something that could result in a stalemate (one that even a Judge cannot really enforce).

If there was a ruling on the timing, then I'm sure someone who was paying attention will pop in here and deliver it.

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by Tsannik
Xanth....

you were supposed to chime in and say that you agree with scowling one, double_a, jacinB, and tsannik...

See how long a list of judges we could've gotten all saying they back up the other judges....

I thought it was another forum thread game.

I'm no judge/envoy. I don't want to give up playing in tournaments. :)

[Wyldstaar]

Okay, I'm back and I'm ready to RUMBLE! ;)

First off, the argument that Barrier/Smoke can't be done twice because you can't move twice is absurd and failed to answer the question, "How is affecting multiple targets with one attack action any different than creating multiple barriers with one move action?"

Secondly, Tsannik's highly reasonable (not to mention well researched) argument which pointed out that the multiple bolts were specifically for Ranged Combat actions is quite convincing. After re-reading the rules, it does seem that any power taking advantage of the multiple bolts may only be a Ranged Combat action.

To this end, I conceed the point to TSANNIK. While scowlingone and double_a also posted along similar lines, they failed to site specific rulings. My hat is off to you sir!

[scowlingone]

Originally posted by Wyldstaar
To this end, I conceed the point to TSANNIK. While scowlingone and double_a also posted along similar lines, they failed to site specific rulings. My hat is off to you sir!

The word is "cite."

And Tsannik didn't quote any rulings; he quoted the rules. Given how long you've been playing, my opinion is that he needn't have even done that.

[skeevo666]

(or at least here were before Wyldstaar got uppitty) Elektra's Mind Control with 2 arrows brings up an interesting point . . .


Would you add together the point values of both figs she MCs or count them separately (sp? scowlingone :-) for purposes of Elektra taking damage ?

[scowlingone]

Ooh. Good question.

I'm not a judge, but my gut feeling is that you'd work it out separately, since the PAC says:

"This character takes 1 click of damage for each 100 points of the target’s point value."

Two targets would seem to indicate two separate damage checks.

I'm hoping that the put this in the FAQ *before* they release the set, but I'm not holding my breath.

[TheSpirit]

Originally posted by skeevo666
Would you add together the point values of both figs she MCs or count them separately for purposes of Elektra taking damage ?
Hey Tsannik... it's started already.

[Xanth]

This question has been raised with Chapeau and we're waiting for the official answer.

[Liquid Havok]

If it is not the total she will be way more powerful than she should be. All it takes is addding an (s) after target in the pac and a bit of re-wording to make the change.....sigh...Elektra is going to be the next Firelord.....

[skeevo666]

I would hope it would be the additive as well . . . Back in the 80's, a friend of mine wrote to Stephen V. Cole, the designer of the board game (well, more a way of life actually) Star Fleet Battles. Out of the 20 or so questions, more than half had a stamped answer on them:

THE MORE RESTRICTIVE APPLIES


at least he was consistent :D