Wildcard declaration quagmire~ weigh in!

[Hellboy]

so, there's already been a lot of discussion about this, so I thought It might deserve its own thread separate from other discussions about the new rules revelations.

Under the new rules:

"Wild cards can still change their team ability with any declared action (friendly or not). We’ve made it more clear that this team ability lasts for as long as the wild card continues to use it, and that it may choose to stop using it with another action, if it so desires (even if it is not changing to copy another team ability). The only time that a wild card is not allowed to change its team ability is when doing so would make an action illegal. For example, if Mikron O’Jeneus is not copying a team ability when an enemy decides to target him with a ranged attack, Mikron cannot choose to change to Batman Ally with this action. He could have done in response to a previous action (even if he was not participating in it), but the current action cannot be made illegal through the change in team ability."

so what we have is instead of changing it whenever, its whenever something is done... unless the thing being done, is being done to the figure with the Wildcard team ability, and it matters.... in other words, you can declare Batman TA, but not if someone is going to shoot at you.

For the sake of getting a community consensus on this particular change... what is everyone's opinion? Yea or nay? Any tactical analysis to add? Does this simplify things, or add more complexity? What say you, HCRealms?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

It simplifies things, and it won't have any huge effect.

There will be cases where somebody will make an attack on a WC in order to coax them to use a non-Bat-Ally ability and then follow up with a ranged attack. That's the biggest consequence apart from remembering to declare.

What it does not address is other game effects where a player can "use" an ability (stealth, giant size) and when those have to be declared.

[Munchoboy]

It simplifies things, and it won't have any huge effect.

There will be cases where somebody will make an attack on a WC in order to coax them to use a non-Bat-Ally ability and then follow up with a ranged attack. That's the biggest consequence apart from remembering to declare.

What it does not address is other game effects where a player can "use" an ability (stealth, giant size) and when those have to be declared.

Agreed. I don't see any greater complexity or cause for confusion.

I do see an opportunity for those who love "WC abuse" to grouse though. ;)

[Nightwing-fan]

I think it might cause a few disagreements at first. With the judge being called over often.

In principle I'm going to like it. I dont play much WC figures so this wont affect me that much. But for those players at my venue who love to make cheese abuse teams involving WC. This is going to force them to alter there way of playing.

The only part I wish they would have also added or put into an errata, is that the WC figure can't do multiple TA changes per attack.

For example from a previous game against our main cheese abuser: I targeted a figure for a range attack and he said Batman TA, no good since I had Superman TA on my dial. He changed it to Skrulls when I said I could still attack him. Failing that roll he changed it to Mystics. All this was dont before I could even roll. WTF!!!!

I think all WC need to declare their TA's at the end of their turn or at the very beginning of your turn and not in the middle and leave it at that.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I love WC abuse and I am psyched for being able to use ATAs!

[Ignatz_Mouse]

In that last example, he ought not to have been able to change once declaring Bat-Ally. You could be nice and let him, but there's no way he could switch to Mystics after Skrull. One TA per action.

[MacGyver2506]

You always could change your team ability with every action...
"Wild cards can still change their team ability with any declared action (friendly or not).
The only change is that they can no longer declare the Batman TA in order to make a Ranged Combat Attack impossible to actually do.

Personally, I think that almost ALL of the "new rules" are just simplified wording of OLD rules...as for the rule on Wildcards, I think they should be able to declare the Batman TA after being declared as the target of a Ranged Combat Attack just like they always have been able to. If Batman can dodge, why can't the Wildcards?

[nivlac713]

Uhhh that dude was doin it wrong then nightwing-fan. You can only change a TA with wild card once per action. Your range attack was the action, so once he picked batman thats it. No skrull and definately no mystics. Wow, wild card WOULD be broke that way haha!

[xer0sum]

Can you declare Skrull anymore with this? The whole point of the TA is to make actions illegal.

This seems to really help people who talk a lot. If you can keep your opponent distracted, he won't declare Batman Ally when you TK your heavy hitter out to fire at you next action. I think it changes the flow and makes you have to pay attention more.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

You can declare Skrull. trying to attack a Skrull isn't illegal. Trying to hit a stealthed fig from range is.

[Harpua]

Personally, I hate the new rule.

I think it is needlessly more complicated than it was.

[squirecam]

Agreed. I don't see any greater complexity or cause for confusion.

I do see an opportunity for those who love "WC abuse" to grouse though. ;)

WC just got ATA's back.....for free. I think any WC abuser who cries about the "declared" action issue should be shot, RCE style. :knockedou

[lancelot]

Personally, I hate the new rule.

I think it is needlessly more complicated than it was.

^
This.

If you think WC's have been simplified...it hasn't. The TA change per action made sense, but this doesn't. Not by a mile.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

It's not complicated at all! It's just different.

"I am going to shoot Spider-Man."
"I declare Batman Ally"
"You can't, I'm already shooting you."

It's certainly less complicated than the dance where somebody tries to range you, it gets called off, then they charge you and you cannot copy Mystics.

[ShadowMark]

Personally, I hate the new rule.

I think it is needlessly more complicated than it was.

I agree. I had to read over it a few times to see what it was trying to say.

But, this adds a little more tactics to declaring WC. Say, for instance I have my WC's on a Superman Ally team or Ultimates, for that matter. I declare an attack with superman with his ability, you declare Bat Ally, because the attack is not illegal with the superman ally ability, you could.

But, the strategy would come as to when to use the Supes Ally/ Ultimates after you other figures for ranged attacks, that way you couldn't switch to Bat Ally and I could attack you.

Or, if you are running a WC/ Bat Ally team, declare your WC's while other actions are being given to avoid this. I could see a lot of arguments, but also a lot of fun with this.

BTW: Nightwing-Fan, what kinda team was he using that ran Skrulls, Mystics and Bat Ally's? sounds like a mush pot of guys to make a WC team.

[csi]

It's not complicated at all! It's just different.

"I am going to shoot Spider-Man."
"I declare Batman Ally"
"You can't, I'm already shooting you."

It's certainly less complicated than the dance where somebody tries to range you, it gets called off, then they charge you and you cannot copy Mystics.

so if the attacker declares an attack and I declare Mystics can the attacker then change their mind? If they do, can I then declare Batman Ally?

[Ignatz_Mouse]

No, they cannot change their mind.

[ChiRocker]

so if the attacker declares an attack and I declare Mystics can the attacker then change their mind? If they do, can I then declare Batman Ally?

I would say that if you declare Mystics, they still have to attack you, just like you can't force someone to not be able to attack you, once the attack has been declared it must be followed through.

[UniqueLoginNamor]

Personally, I hate the new rule.

I think it is needlessly more complicated than it was.

THANK you. Glad it's not just me.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

boiling it down, it just adds a LOT more tactical thinking behind every action dealing with a wild card with options.
Solution? KILL THE NON-WILDCARDS. mwahahahahahahahah!
easier said than done at times, but you dont have to worry about a headache if you dont want to. Personally i like the change, ive come across a lot of people who would do just that- "You want to shoot me? Batman Ally". grr. now, i can shoot them unless they are smart and declare it earlier.

[zero_cochrane]

Here's how I understand the wildcard change: When I declare an action, you cannot declare a team ability that would "reverse" my specific, declared action.

If I declare a Running Shot action, you can choose Batman Ally because I have not chosen a target yet; heck, I haven't even moved yet. But once my movement is complete and I declare the ranged attack against a target, it is too late to declare Batman Ally. It doesn't matter if I could make a ranged attack against someone else; my specific, declared action was against the wildcard.

If I declare a Ranged Combat Expert action against your wildcard, you cannot switch to Batman Ally. My action was declared and the target chosen at the same time.

Here's a more complex example:

I am playing the veteran Supergirl from Origin. She is currently carrying a heavy object, and has two friendly characters on her force - AE Superman (previously Clark Kent) and a version of Batman. Supergirl most recently used the Superman Ally team ability. Her current click:
or057 V Supergirl
Team: Legion of Superheroes
Range: 10 :bolt:
Points: 232
Keywords: Legion of Super Heroes, Teen
m-winga-fistd-starburstg-starburst1011174
My opponent is fielding a Doctor Doom team including Jason Blood and the Question (giving the Mystics and Batman Ally team ability).

Before doing anything else in the turn, I declare that Batman is Outwitting Doom's defence power. There's not much that Doom can do about this, because declaring Batman Ally would make the Outwit illegal, and declaring Mystics doesn't help either.

I then declare that Supergirl is taking a power action to use Hypersonic Speed. I don't change her wildcarded team ability (currently Superman Ally). My opponent declares that Doom is copying the Mystics team ability. He knows that one click will eliminate Supergirl's Hypersonic Speed, and Batman Ally is pretty useless against a Superman Ally anyway.

However, I surprise my opponent by moving Supergirl to a square of hindering terrain five squares away from Doom and using my free action to make a ranged combat attack from there. I declare Batman Ally for Supergirl's team ability (it doesn't make any actions illegal, and I don't want Jason Blood to re-roll my attack!). My opponent would love to copy Batman Ally now, but it's too late - the declaration would make my specific, declared action illegal. Supergirl attacks Doom from range and deals 4 damage, and then takes her Mystics click.

I think it's a good change. It doesn't dumb down strategy (you still have to think carefully about wildcard declarations, and you can still outfox people), it eliminates the "wind back" of actions becoming illegal after they've been declared, and it's really not that complicated.

[KillerSavage]

My suggestion is ta being copied are once per turn. Up until about twenty minutes ago that's what I thought it was anyhow. Oh well maybe the next rule book. Or not.

[Hellboy]

I think the intrinsic problem with this is it counter-indicates good sportsmanship.

I know that most games I play, we are always pointing out errors to each other. There's a lot of rules to keep in your head at all times. What this does, is basically encourages players to keep their yaps shut in the hopes that their opponent will make a mistake. Most games I've played in or seen, the players are always gracious about letting their opponent take back declarations that are illegal or once they say them they realize they are pointless, like attacking a character with a defense ability that would reduce damage done by the attacker to zero. Are we heading for an environment where I'll be across the table from a player telling me "nope. you declared it. Roll the dice. Place an action token." ??

[zero_cochrane]

I think the intrinsic problem with this is it counter-indicates good sportsmanship.I find that wildcard abuse is counter to good sportsmanship. ;)

But seriously, I think this is different from "Ooops, I declared an attack against Superman with my character who doesn't have 3 :g-starburst: any more". Instead, it's more along the lines of "Ooops, I hit the Hulk for 4 and now he's on his sweet click".

If an opponent declares an action that is illegal, it must be taken back. If an opponent declares an action that is pointless... well, it's sporting to allow him to take it back, if that's the way you guys play (and I would do the same). But if an opponent declares an action that is simply unwise, then barring new guys or an opponent who is being utterly trounced, there's no harm in letting that stand. Good sportsmanship doesn't require that you correct your opponent's strategy.