Super outwit vs....

[BLACKHEART25]

Okay I played a game the other day and I was playing Rip Hunter and my friend was playing HoT Doom. Here are their powers that was in play:

TIME MASTER: Rip Hunter can use Outwit and Probability Control. The standard and named powers of Rip Hunter and friendly characters adjacent to him can't be countered.
POWERLESS: Doom can use Outwit. When Doom uses Outwit, he can use it normally, or choose to counter all powers or all abilities of a target character 6 or fewer squares away.

Becasuse of Rip Hunter's special power you can't just outwit his senses and phasing, but Doom can outwit the whole dial. Still, you have to get rid of the special on Rip Hunter first before you can get his dial I would think. So I'm asking: Does Doom totally outwit Rip's dial or can he only get the special power with his super outwit? Also if Rip had Outsmart attached

(When a power possessed by the character or an adjacent friendly character would be countered by an opposing character's power or ability, you and the opposing character's controller each roll 2d6. If your result is more, the power is not countered instead) do you roll for each power getting countered or a one time roll representing each power?

Thanks for any information.

[Harpua]

Okay I played a game the other day and I was playing Rip Hunter and my friend was playing HoT Doom. Here are their powers that was in play:

TIME MASTER: Rip Hunter can use Outwit and Probability Control. The standard and named powers of Rip Hunter and friendly characters adjacent to him can't be countered.
POWERLESS: Doom can use Outwit. When Doom uses Outwit, he can use it normally, or choose to counter all powers or all abilities of a target character 6 or fewer squares away.

Becasuse of Rip Hunter's special power you can't just outwit his senses and phasing, but Doom can outwit the whole dial. Still, you have to get rid of the special on Rip Hunter first before you can get his dial I would think. So I'm asking: Does Doom totally outwit Rip's dial or can he only get the special power with his super outwit? Also if Rip had Outsmart attached

(When a power possessed by the character or an adjacent friendly character would be countered by an opposing character's power or ability, you and the opposing character's controller each roll 2d6. If your result is more, the power is not countered instead) do you roll for each power getting countered or a one time roll representing each power?

Thanks for any information.

The answer is....

OMG...look!!! A moose!!!

[Grategy]

Ohh no... Harpua doesn't have an answer. We are all doomed! Doomed I say!

[BLACKHEART25]

Nooooooooo!!! Harpua I Was Counting On You!!!!!

[Harpua]

Ohh no... Harpua doesn't have an answer. We are all doomed! Doomed I say!

It's a heck of a question, actually.

I can tell you how I'd rule it....everything would go away....but I'm curious to hear the official response.

[normalview]

It's a heck of a question, actually.

I can tell you how I'd rule it....everything would go away....but I'm curious to hear the official response.

Agree.

I see this along the lines of the "active player deciding the order" thing.

The active player, presumably the one playing Doom, chooses to "first" counter Rip's SP... and then counters the rest of his now vulnerable to countering powers.

[BLACKHEART25]

Ha Ha. Sometimes I try to do this stuff on purpose. I wanna stump them at least once a year. 2009 has already been done, did I really get a 2010 one so soon?

No seriously, I couldn't figure out what to do so we left it as Rip's special just getting outwitted.

[BLACKHEART25]

Agree.

I see this along the lines of the "active player deciding the order" thing.

The active player, presumably the one playing Doom, chooses to "first" counter Rip's SP... and then counters the rest of his now vulnerable to countering powers.

A very interesting theory. It could go that way I guess, but Doom's special is like a hit you all at once type of deal, not pick and choose (just my opinion). Nobody took into the effect of Rip's power which neuters you from getting the whole dial without going through the special first.

It doesn't matter either way, but I would like to know for future reference.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Agree.

I see this along the lines of the "active player deciding the order" thing.

The active player, presumably the one playing Doom, chooses to "first" counter Rip's SP... and then counters the rest of his now vulnerable to countering powers.

As someone with no official capacity I'd go with Blackheart's ruling. If the power said "each" instead of "all" I'd be inclined to go towards outwitting the whole dial. All however implies a single action, the whole dial taken collectively. It'd be the difference between the two following statements "each person needs to go to the bathroom" and "all people need to go to the bathroom".

[wolfwood13]

the way powerless is worded it seems like doom could only outwit the timemaster power, since it's not protected, powerless says he can use outwit normally orcounter all powers or abilities on the dial. i don't think you can first use powerless to outwit timemaster and then use it again to outwit the whole dial once it's gone. i may be wrong, maybe there's something i'm not seeing.

[UniqueLoginNamor]

Everything would be countered. Applying counter to everything nukes the special which makes the others vulnerable (even though they are applied at the same time)
Timemaster says the powers can't be countered, not they can't be targeted by outwit. I could still use Outwit on a Powers Cosmic, it just wouldn't effect him. The Special would shut off at the same time as standard powers so they would be affected too.


And you have to roll for each power countered when using Outsmart.
That's my 2 cents.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Everything would be countered. Applying counter to everything nukes the special which makes the others vulnerable (even though they are applied at the same time). Timemaster says the powers can't be countered, not they can't be targeted by outwit. I could still use Outwit on a Powers Cosmic, it just wouldn't effect him. The Special would shut off at the same time as standard powers so they would be affected too.


This doesn't make sense to me. Timemaster isn't countered until Outwit resolves. Once Outwit resolves there can't be more countering going on. The Only way Powerless counters all the powers is if it can do it serially, i.e.e: One item is countered, then another, and another. Outwit as I read it is a single step and you can't use the conditions at the end of the step to fulfill necessary conditions at the beginning of the step. However, if Powerless acts serially then yes all the powers should be Countered.

[Tollas]

Please don't introduce "the stack"
Please don't introduce "the stack"
Please don't introduce "the stack"

[nbperp]

Doom's power, since it takes out Time Master, it gets everything else with it.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Doom's power, since it takes out Time Master, it gets everything else with it.

To be clear, I'm not arguing with the ruling, but curious about the mechanics.

How does it resolve this way? Does the power work serially, i.e. powers get outwitted one at a time in an order of the choosing of the player with the power?

[Sate]

Okay I played a game the other day and I was playing Rip Hunter and my friend was playing HoT Doom. Here are their powers that was in play:

TIME MASTER: Rip Hunter can use Outwit and Probability Control. The standard and named powers of Rip Hunter and friendly characters adjacent to him can't be countered.
POWERLESS: Doom can use Outwit. When Doom uses Outwit, he can use it normally, or choose to counter all powers or all abilities of a target character 6 or fewer squares away.

Becasuse of Rip Hunter's special power you can't just outwit his senses and phasing, but Doom can outwit the whole dial. Still, you have to get rid of the special on Rip Hunter first before you can get his dial I would think. So I'm asking: Does Doom totally outwit Rip's dial or can he only get the special power with his super outwit? Also if Rip had Outsmart attached

(When a power possessed by the character or an adjacent friendly character would be countered by an opposing character's power or ability, you and the opposing character's controller each roll 2d6. If your result is more, the power is not countered instead) do you roll for each power getting countered or a one time roll representing each power?

Thanks for any information.
The Outsmart card demands that each power would be rolled for separately. This demands that an order must be chosen.
So thanks to Outsmart, we have a precedent, we have determined that when Doom uses Outwit, an order can be chosen when other mechanics demand it. So it is conceivable that when Doom attempts to counter all of Rip Hunter's powers, the Time Master power can be chosen first, allowing for the other powers to then be countered.

[llyrghmnghyll]

The Outsmart card demands that each power would be rolled for separately. This demands that an order must be chosen.
So thanks to Outsmart, we have a precedent, we have determined that when Doom uses Outwit, an order can be chosen when other mechanics demand it. So it is conceivable that when Doom attempts to counter all of Rip Hunter's powers, the Time Master power can be chosen first, allowing for the other powers to then be countered.

didn't realize the precedent had already been set. thanks.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

Please don't introduce "the stack"
Please don't introduce "the stack"
Please don't introduce "the stack"


sweet zombie jesus on a pogo stick, dont even say that, they might get wind!

[The7ofDiamonds]

Everything would be countered. Applying counter to everything nukes the special which makes the others vulnerable (even though they are applied at the same time)
Timemaster says the powers can't be countered, not they can't be targeted by outwit. I could still use Outwit on a Powers Cosmic, it just wouldn't effect him. The Special would shut off at the same time as standard powers so they would be affected too.


And you have to roll for each power countered when using Outsmart.
That's my 2 cents.

Though I could argue a bit with the diction, I agree with this. It also helps that [though not necessarily by this logic] Nbperp leans this way as well.