Dear Wizkids: Because of new ATAs, old keywords lists could use revision, please.

[rpweld03]

Okay, okay, some people love keywords and some people hate them, but that's not what I'm talking about. Please let's not go round and round on that issue again, okay?

I'm talking about the fact that specific-keyword-based ATAs are here. Me, I'm excited by that. Unless I missed it, however, nobody has brought up the fact that with the new ATAs going by keyword and not team symbol, the inclusion or exclusion of specific keywords on a figure could be pretty important. Especially if, as promised, Wizkids updates and reissues print and play versions of all the older ATAs.

Just to make it clear, I LIKE the idea of making ATAs keyword specific. It will certainly cut down on the Thunderbolts cheese I've seen. Exactly how is Captain America a mystic? Plus, it will encourage Wizkids to make more new ATAs for team symbols that were all but "locked in" before. There was no call for making a Power Pack ATA because, frankly, unless it was even more powerful than the Fantastic Four one, nobody would ever play it. But once the Fantastic Four ATA becomes keyword specific...

Moreover, now there can be not only Thunderbolts, but West Coast Avengers, Mighty Avengers, and Young Avengers ATAs. And don't even get me started on the Justice League options. Either way, keyword-specific ATAs open up a lot of room for Wizkids to really expand upon the team abilities. You may disagree with me, but I think that is a good thing.

Anyway, with all of that in mind, I am politely requesting that Wizkids take some time out of their busy schedule to update the lists of keywords for figures, both for pre-card AND carded figures. Why?

- Shouldn't CD Kalibak be able to use the Apokolips ATA?

- Shouldn't Dr. Psycho and at least one version of Deathstroke have the Society keyword so that they, as key members, could use the revised feat?

- Once Monster Society of Evil becomes keyword based, wouldn't it be nice if BnB Metallo had had some keywords other than Robot to work with future Superman Enemy ATAs?

- There are now six Martian Manhunter figures and none of them have the JLA keyword.

- With the new Wizard Shazam, a Fawcett City ATA would be pretty cool. Oh, but wait, none of the regular Shazam figures from UL or OR (or even the one in BnB) have that keyword.

- Cave Carson has Forgotten Heroes, so he can be on a theme team with Animal Man, but not with Rip Hunter, who didn't get that keyword.

Now, at this point, I couldn't care less about generic keywords, This isn't about me wanting cheese. Heck, I'm even for splitting Gotham City into a good guys keyword and a bad guys keyword. Generic keywords should be revised too, but I think that clarifying and correcting the specific ones is more important at this point.

Also, if specific keywords are the way of the future, please Wizkids, don't be shy with them.

The upcoming starter has been spoiled now, and ouch. The figures look fantastic, the dials are pretty good, but the keywords are terrible. I'd hoped that Mera would at least still be from Atlantis. Heck, I'd planned on buying a second copy of her, chopping off the vomit, painting her outfit green, and mounting her on some clear water from an Icons Aquaman. Hey, a new member for my DC Atlantis team! (Which is different from my Marvel Atlantis team, thank you very much.) Wait, she doesn't have the keyword? Drat.

Well, at least I can get a second Atom, pry off the figure, and add the puck to my Justice League of America team... Nope, can't do that either.

For those two customs alone, it practically would have been worth buying a second starter. But, at least WizKids gave all the figures in the team a common keyword for "Lantern Deputies" that allows them to be used as a team together like their team-up in the comic... No.

Well, I could team up Wonder Woman with CR Star Sapphire... except that Star doesn't have any keywords at all, let alone "Violet Lantern Corps." Diana is an Amazon, though... just an oddly dressed one.

Anyway, since half the figures in the starter can't theme-team up together or with older figures, I can't see why most of these pieces (other than Hal and Scarecrow, whose teammates are found outside the set) will see much play for me, since I usually stick to comic-accurate theme teams.

Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with The Brave and The Bold, and I really like what Wizkids is working on with the ATAs. I'm just asking that they not be stingy with specific keywords and that, if they can find the time, they revise the old guard's keyword list. The errors, omissions, and problems are not their fault, but it is within their power to fix them when they get a chance.

Pretty please?

[Harpua]

I'm a-ok if they update the pre-avengers lists, as those are on their own sheets and require no errata, but updating the ones with character cards is just a headache, imo.

[lancelot]

Awesome post. Rep. I'm also anti-generic keyword but all for those cities, teams, and the like!

[rpweld03]

I'm a-ok if they update the pre-avengers lists, as those are on their own sheets and require no errata, but updating the ones with character cards is just a headache, imo.

True, I'm not saying that would be easy to revise anything post Legion. Then again, since character cards are now Print and Play, it's not impossible, and the precedent is there with Power Girl and her Super Strength trait.

[rpweld03]

Awesome post. Rep. I'm also anti-generic keyword but all for those cities, teams, and the like!

Thanks. I like the cities too, mostly. As I said, I think Gotham needs splitting. Plus, I'd like Atlantis (DC) and Atlantis (Marvel) differentiated. "You breathe water, we breathe water," isn't grounds for a specific keyword. Didn't DC's Atlantis go by the name Poseidonis at one point in the Peter David run?

[Silver Lantern]

I'm a-ok if they update the pre-avengers lists, as those are on their own sheets and require no errata, but updating the ones with character cards is just a headache, imo.

More for you than anybody else, because of your list. :p

[Harpua]

More for you than anybody else, because of your list. :p

Meh, the tracks are laid on the list. Updates are a snap.

I'm thinking more along the lines of whatever is changed via PnP had darn well also be represented in the PG, imo.

[vicious x]

I agree,... a revamp of every figure would be helpful :) I am sure everyone here can pitch in,.... fill in the keywords.

[rpweld03]

Meh, the tracks are laid on the list. Updates are a snap.

I'm thinking more along the lines of whatever is changed via PnP had darn well also be represented in the PG, imo.

Okay, yeah, that could get bulky. But for a limited number of clear oversights, it could be done. I'm not saying that every figure has problems, or even 10%. Certainly the post-Legion cards, designed with Keywords in mind, are pretty well thought out. But there are some oversights that could sure use fixin'. And even some of those come from the designers not having thought that Forgotten Heroes would ever have three members in clix form. (And dare I hope that someday Rock Flag will be a fourth?) Or that Violet Lantern Corps would ever be a keyword. For the cost of a couple erratas in the PG and a photoshopped PnP card...

[brycie]

Include my vote in this good argument.

Marvel has its equivalent keyword-issues, it'd be nice to see them all looked-over.
(however unlikely)
And agreed that pre-AV will be much easier (and therefore likely) than the later sets

[XFORCE1982]

When will my REV of Jessica Jones have the avenger keyword...for god sakes she is NEW NEW NEW Avenger lol

[Roderic_Cliche]

E Sasquatch and V Tanaraq could certainly use Exiles. At least the V Black Mask could use Gotham City; taking over Gotham's gangs in War Games has to count for something, right? V Jean Grey should likely be X-Factor, not X-Force, unless Jean's been on that team and I never knew it. E Cable ought to be New Mutants over New Warriors. Thunderstrike should likely be Thor Corps, as he was with Dargo, Bill, and Thor in the limited series of the same name. The 100 point Iceman, if he gets Champions, should easily have X-Factor as well. Mojo should be Mystical, or Spiral should be Monster--anything to get to run them together! :)

Any obvious ones I've missed?

[rpweld03]

Any obvious ones I've missed?

Well, the Collateral Damage 218 Superman has the Batman Ally team ability with only the Metropolis keyword, while the 222 The Man of Steel has the Superman team ability but the keywords for Gotham City, JLA, Justice League and Metropolis. I've always figured that was a mistake on the keywords list.

While we're on CD, Krypto only has the Animal keyword, meaning he can't be on a theme team with, um, any Superman. The same is true for the Superman Robot.

Some version of Bane could really use the Secret Six keyword.

And where do I start with the various Justice League keywords?

[Roderic_Cliche]

E Morph could use New Mutants. He has Avengers, Exiles, and X-Men, but in Exiles #1, he IS mentioned as having been a member of the New Mutants of his world first. :)

Were it anything but the V Mimic, one could argue a case for Brotherhood, Exiles, X-Men on him. . . but they got that right, in a manner of speaking, on the older Mimic unique, which has pretty much the same powers as a R Mimic for the Exiles storyline would have, so it's fine in my book.

Dr. Donald Blake and The Mighty Thor are both missing Asgardian.

Hmmmmm. Can't think of any other obvious ones right this moment.

[algrim]

I like the fact that they CAN errata the cards in the print and play era, but unless they are doing it for another reason besides the keywords (and just update the keywords while they are doing it), I wouldn't really want them to pump out a ton of keyword corrected print and play cards.

Pre-Avengers? Errata away - lt may help those figures get a little more mileage anyhow...

[Rurouni KJS]

Dr. Donald Blake and The Mighty Thor are both missing Asgardian.


I think they errata'd those recently, along with the other Supernova Thors.

[vectin]

Thankfully, both of my regular venues are heavy comics fans, so we if we run comic accurate teams "judging" favor will go to the team and ATA is not an issue.

That being said, I would love to help out (if needed) to revise/update the Golden Age keywords. Just the glaring ones really....

[XFORCE1982]

why is carnage a martial artist? and batzarro needs the monster keyword so i can run the three in a theme team

[XFORCE1982]

I think they errata'd those recently, along with the other Supernova Thors.

Na, i wish....donald has the keywords avenger, diety & warrior

[Haven13]

I just figured out what ATA means! YAY!

For the record, I've loved keywords since the idea came out. I've always been a theme-team-player and there should be some kind of boobie-prize for intentionally hamstringing oneself. I can't say I was thrilled with this idea in action, but getting SOME thing was great.

The fact that they are now being used to give Alternate Team Abilities is even better. I especially like the fact that some ATAs can be done with different keywords like the new Super Buddies one!

And, yes, the Keywords need to be updated. But I don't know how they're gonna do that without having characters like Batman having three fold-out panels of keywords: Gotham, Detective, Justice League, Justice League International, JLA, Trinity, Martial Artist, Chuck Norris's Bane, etc., etc., etc.

[rpweld03]

And, yes, the Keywords need to be updated. But I don't know how they're gonna do that without having characters like Batman having three fold-out panels of keywords: Gotham, Detective, Justice League, Justice League International, JLA, Trinity, Martial Artist, Chuck Norris's Bane, etc., etc., etc.

Well, it would help if they collapsed the various Justice League keywords down from nine:

- Justice League of America (Brave & Bold #28-30 (1960) to Justice League of America #1 to #261 (1987))

- Justice League International (Justice League #1 (1987 to Justice League International #? (1994))

- Justice League Europe (Justice League Europe #1 (1989) to #68 (1993))

- Justice League Antarctica (Justice League America Annual (1990))

- Justice League Task Force (Justice League Task Force #1 (1993) to #37 (1996))

- Extreme Justice (Extreme Justice #1 (1995) to #18 (1996))

- JLA (JLA #1 (1997) to #125 (2006)

- Justice League Elite (Justice League Elite #1 (2004) to #12 (2005))

- Justice League (Justice League of America #1 (2006) to present)

(and that's not even getting into the Super Buddies...)


To just three of them:

- Justice League of America (Brave & Bold #28-30 (1960) to Justice League of America #1 to #261 (1987)) (covers 263 issues + annuals, specials)

- Justice League International (All interconnected titles from 1987-1996, Justice League America, Justice League international, Justice League Europe, Justice League Task Force, Justice League Antarctica, and Extreme Justice) (covers 224 issues + annuals, specials)

- JLA (All titles from 1997 to present: JLA, Justice League Elite, Justice League of America) (covers 158 issues + annuals, specials)


That would simplify matters greatly. I mean, just because the team's lineup and headquarters change, and maybe even the title of the book, that doesn't mean we need a new keyword. How many different Avengers keywords would that give us? Avengers Founders, Cap's Kooky Quartet, Hydrobase Avengers, Onslaught Earth Avengers, Avengers Reborn Avengers, New Avengers...

And besides, all of the Justice League International books were one organization, just in different branches. Why do they all have to have separate keywords?

Now, some figures (Batman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman) would wind up with all three of these proposed keywords. But some figures (Ray) would only have one. For anything before the Legion starter, this would be an easy fix. As has been said before, it's the carded figures that get tricky.

[Superclone]

Well, it would help if they collapsed the various Justice League keywords down from nine:

- Justice League of America (Brave & Bold #28-30 (1960) to Justice League of America #1 to #261 (1987))

- Justice League International (Justice League #1 (1987 to Justice League International #? (1994))

- Justice League Europe (Justice League Europe #1 (1989) to #68 (1993))

- Justice League Antarctica (Justice League America Annual (1990))

- Justice League Task Force (Justice League Task Force #1 (1993) to #37 (1996))

- Extreme Justice (Extreme Justice #1 (1995) to #18 (1996))

- JLA (JLA #1 (1997) to #125 (2006)

- Justice League Elite (Justice League Elite #1 (2004) to #12 (2005))

- Justice League (Justice League of America #1 (2006) to present)

(and that's not even getting into the Super Buddies...)


To just three of them:

- Justice League of America (Brave & Bold #28-30 (1960) to Justice League of America #1 to #261 (1987)) (covers 263 issues + annuals, specials)

- Justice League International (All interconnected titles from 1987-1996, Justice League America, Justice League international, Justice League Europe, Justice League Task Force, Justice League Antarctica, and Extreme Justice) (covers 224 issues + annuals, specials)

- JLA (All titles from 1997 to present: JLA, Justice League Elite, Justice League of America) (covers 158 issues + annuals, specials)


That would simplify matters greatly. I mean, just because the team's lineup and headquarters change, and maybe even the title of the book, that doesn't mean we need a new keyword. How many different Avengers keywords would that give us? Avengers Founders, Cap's Kooky Quartet, Hydrobase Avengers, Onslaught Earth Avengers, Avengers Reborn Avengers, New Avengers...

And besides, all of the Justice League International books were one organization, just in different branches. Why do they all have to have separate keywords?

Now, some figures (Batman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman) would wind up with all three of these proposed keywords. But some figures (Ray) would only have one. For anything before the Legion starter, this would be an easy fix. As has been said before, it's the carded figures that get tricky.


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[brojase]

I would definitely support pre-Avengers keyword updates...and even a few (although this could end up becoming like the 'who deserves indomitable' argument) post Avengers updates.

[Trader2699]

I agree on the Kalibak point. Makes no sense.

[DemonRS]

Moved this to the "dear wizkids" forum

[MattMinus]

At my venue we take a talmudic approach, where a council of learned nerds can declare keyword and theme on the spot . We came up with this when we realized a players 2x shadow demon, 2x thunderer, psycho pirate team wasn't themed.

[Puuka]

Now, at this point, I couldn't care less about generic keywords, This isn't about me wanting cheese. Heck, I'm even for splitting Gotham City into a good guys keyword and a bad guys keyword. Generic keywords should be revised too, but I think that clarifying and correcting the specific ones is more important at this point.

I think they should have done "Gotham" and then "Arkham Asylum" as a separate keyword. Though, it's cool that you can make a "Justice League of Arkham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_Leagues#Justice_League_of_Arkham)" that is at least a theme team.

The only other one you can make, without making any sort of substitutes is Justice League of Apostles, which would be a Mystical keyword theme team if it wasn't too many points (at least 600 for 5 figures). All the others are missing one figure or another.

[Heathcliff]

I'm in total agreement with the OP. With Neca firmly behind WK now, the next few sets should get proper planning and WK should know which figures will be made. If they know we won't be seeing a new version of a character who's missing keywords for a while, then by all means grant the existing figs the keyword.

Martian Manhunter, who has been called the heart of the JLA (in the JLA comic itself, if I'm not mistaken) still doesn't have a JLA version? Buh? We're not talking European Defence Initiative here, we're talking about the Justice League!

There's a number of lineups which can't be made to benefit from the current keyword rules and many of the characters in these lineups may never see clix form again. Time to let the keyword rules do what they were originally meant to do and let people make comic-accurate teams using the keywords.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I agree that the keyword list is woefully inaccurate and since its going to be used even more, it should be updated.

In fact, I'm fairly certain there was an updated keyword list floating around the realms somewhere. It wouldn't be difficult at all to just take that and double check its accuracy.

[rpweld03]

At my venue we take a talmudic approach, where a council of learned nerds can declare keyword and theme on the spot . We came up with this when we realized a players 2x shadow demon, 2x thunderer, psycho pirate team wasn't themed.

I once showed up to play in a 600 point "just for fun" tourney with The Monitor and 7 copies of Harbinger (one of which had the blacked-out "possessed by a shadow demon" eyes). Theme team bonus? Nope. She's his herald (has the keyword) but he has no keywords at all. Argh! Wish I'd had your council of learned nerds on hand that day.

[Roderic_Cliche]

Think it'd be too much to ask to simplify things by standardizing the Infinity Challenge/Xplosion/Universe keywords? Just go with all of the possibilities for each figure, and use the same ones for all versions of those. I know they're considered different figures and the like by their set symbols and such. . . but come on. Having to own one of two figures simply because it's the one with the "right" keyword despite having the same dial and sculpt, AND having to make sure you don't carry the wrong one with you to play?

We see a similar issue with the E Icons Batman and its promo version. One has Detective, Martial Arts, Scientist. One is Gotham City, Martial Artist. Come again? Likewise, the two Free Comic Day Wolverines (Wizkids and Hero Clix T-Shirts) with their keywords--one Mutant, one X-Men.

[rpweld03]

We see a similar issue with the E Icons Batman and its promo version. One has Detective, Martial Arts, Scientist. One is Gotham City, Martial Artist. Come again? Likewise, the two Free Comic Day Wolverines (Wizkids and Hero Clix T-Shirts) with their keywords--one Mutant, one X-Men.

You know, I got burned on those Wolverines. I was trying to trade a guy for a SHIELD-keyword Logan, and he assured me that the promos had the same keywords as the unique. I made the trade, got home, checked the keywords list, and found out he was either wrong or lying. But why exactly wouldn't they have the same keywords as the unique? Like many of the keywords list entries, this makes no sense...

[Quebbster]

But why exactly wouldn't they have the same keywords as the unique?
Why should they have the same keywords as the Unique when the dials are different?

[rpweld03]

Why should they have the same keywords as the Unique when the dials are different?

Whoops, so they are. My bad. But then, as was stated before, why wouldn't they have the same keywords as each other?