Is the DC set at a crossroads?

[esfoad]

With the ever increasing power of the Marvel figs, it's as though the DC set is already faced with an interesting choice with the direction it takes for future expansions.

-Do we lobby to maintain the (IMO) excellent balance and strategic gameplay of the current DC Clix Universe? (Even if this means falling behind the power curve of Marvel and further limiting the DC figs effectiveness when playing in mixed games?)

or

- Do we support/encourage future DC sets to keep up with the power increases of Marvel in order to keep mixed sets a more viable gaming option and competitive sales? (Even if it means blowing many character templates out of proportion of their comic book selves and established Hypertime figures?)

Have we reached this point yet? I think we're rapidly approaching it and, if so, I would vote to maintain the current balance of the DC figs (give or take a couple of heavily discussed error corrections/tweaks with some DC figs, alternate versions of current characters, and of course new faces).

Your thoughts?

[SgtHulka]

Well, I think we hope for the first of your two options. My greatest fear with the DC set is that the current variety of strategies and tactics get thrown out the window with a few dominating ones, and that the current emphasis on close combat gives way to ranged attackers and medics. I also hope bat-family doesn't get too many new members, and if they do they're of the Catwoman hand-to-hand ilk, and not the nightwing ranged ilk.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree with your original point. That is, I don't believe that Marvel is getting more and more powerful, at least in the current tournament scene. There are a few CT figures that find their way into new armies: Invisible Girl, Doc Oc, She Hulk, Thor, AIM Medic...but over all Infinity Challenge still dominates. Firelord, Wasp, Black Panther, Bullseye and Scarlet Witch still reign supreme. Of those top figures, only Scarlet Witch has been given a real run for her money with Black Cat, but Black Cat is only really superior if you're playing mixed marvel-DC and give her the bat family ability.

[drhypnotic]

I thought Marvel Infinity Challenge was pretty balanced (minus firelord of course). Hulk and Juggernaught were the heavy hitters with 3-4 clix of damage.

DC came out with everyone and their brother doing 3-5 clicks and CHEAP!

Marvel upped the ante with the b/c/f + flurry people in CT.

This is what went wrong with Magic (MTG) in my opinion. Powerful sets sell. So sets keep getting more powerful to support the tourney scene.

I love my THEME teams.

I'll play firelord when Morg, terrax, Airwalker and Silver Surfer come out.

[webhead817]

I'd like to see DC retain the solid balance it established in the base set. "Keeping up" with Marvel is largely pointless to me, in fun games I play the figs I like, in tournament games you can't mix the universes anyway (officially).

I'm also of the opinion that CT was more balanced than IC, in terms of numbers. AV's stayed more in line of the 8 to 11 range, with DV's in the 15-17 range (with a few notable exceptions of course).

[esfoad]

A tough argument if we really sit down to it. We want to be able to played mix teams yet we want to retain the current balance and gameplay of the DC figs.

We want the DC sets to continue to sell as well as they have but they will always be compared to the Marvel sales (which, as mentioned, one of the ways to attract sales is to continue to buff up chars and powers). I'll never forgive Magic for this and their most recent uber card trent they (re)started with the Judgement expansion (which has only gotten worse now with the introduction of Legions...).

That was it for me with MtG. Another poster mentioned in another thread this morning that Magic has gotten to the point of only 3 or 4 viable (read: tourney competitive) decks (which evolves slightly with each new set). I'd hate for HC to go that route too. I love HC themed teams too and (mostly purposely but it also just works out this way due to my char preferences) try to avoid the uber combos for almost all games. Yes there are obvious staple figures that are guaranteed to improve your team, but it's a CHOICE. Not a required in order to win games. I don't remember the last time I was able to put together a rouge deck in Magic and win a game against the current top popular decks.

drhypnotic -- Yes, the IC set was fairly balanced in and of itself (but with the higher stats than DC, which we've all rehashed before so I won't now). It's the expansions that concern me. CT has a lot of top figs in it and it looks like XPlosion till too (granted I realize it's not out yet and they're trying to wow us now). But Xplosion is building on a full set and one expansion. We expect/desire at least some evoloution or adjustments on HT, but I hope we don't see them try and cram two expansions worth of that into one just to keep up.

There's also a matter that threatens both the Marvel and DC sets and that's the danger of making current figures obsolete as new ones emerge (which I realize is also partially personal preference and perception too). This prolly requires some explaination...

It's one thing if DC were to decide to, say, release a new Black Manta to "replace" the infamous HT figure (but at least it wouldn't be making an expensive unique obsolete). But let's a take the more recent argument of Phoenix and Professor X (again speculative since Xplos hasn't released yet). Going by the preview it reads as though she'll "replace" Prof. X as the most efficient mind controller on the team/set. That would hardly be fair to Prof X especially if we didn't see a new version of him later on.

Why all this rambling? Hey, we all want to see new figures. Plus almost all of us have opinions as to what the dev team could or should have done differently with most figs (so we ask for improvements). But the trick is to give us these changes or new figures while retaining the usefullness of the current figure base (unless the intention is replacing a current figure with a new version of itself).

One of my recent topics I'm watching is the one I've suggested the new Batman ideas in. I want to see new Bats but I don't want them to obliterate the current R/E/V. Whether it's making the new ones unique, or increasing the point cost, or (as I suggested) rearranging power positions on the dial/offering alternative powers, etc, there are many methods in which to release new versions of this same character while keeping his originals viable game options.

But that's just my desire. I want more options in the game. More choices to have to make. I don't want to see the new version of a figure and automatically have the decision made for me that it will be THE ONE I'll use from here on out. Characters like Black Manta, Superman, etc aside, I want to look at a new/revised dial and think of alternate situations I would use it in conjunction with it's current versions.

If you've made it this far then I have a question for you:

What are your primary expectations of new figures?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by esfoad
What are your primary expectations of new figures?

Well, aside from trying to balance playability with novelty (juggling nitroglycerin while riding a unicycle without a seat)...

In no particular order.

Research In a game like Heroclix, fans are always going to be pickier than normal - even before buying a booster or starter, they've probably already set their expectations. That being said, there's no excuse to leave out signature bits of characters. Spider-Man without Supersenses, Juggernaut without Charge, Flash without Titans (Wally) or JSA (Jay) teams - you might as well have Superman without flying or Cyclops without a ranged attack. Each of these are so intrinsic to the characters that it feels off to not include them. While I can understand balance issues or approximations (Spiral's not a servant of Doom, after all, but the ability fits her mercenary trends), or how limited time is (much as I love Hawk & Dove, I don't expect WK to research them to the point where they should have had Regen, even if it WAS in the comic - they've got cult followings, but they're not the stars of the set), players shouldn't wonder why their favorite character's so off. This is especially irritating when it takes the reverse route - characters having affiliation, nemeses, and/or powers that make utterly no sense. Of the current lineup of Injustice League figures, precisely ONE has been a member in recent continuity - the Joker, who spent most of his tenure tied up and replaced by Plastic Man. While most of the members are somewhat reasonable inclusions, having faced the JLA independently on a few occasions, there's no reason for Braniac 13 to be IL, and Key not - the Key's actually laid eyes on more than one JLAer, after all. There are even times when a character's R/E/V may warrant a REVERSAL of the usual power trend - characters have lost their powers, or given them up for the greater good.

Variety This goes all over. Barring seminal characters, such as Hawkgirl, or major events, such as Black Adam and Captain Marvel on the same team, I'd rather not see rehashes of the same "type" on the same team when major aspects of the team are still missing. The JLA has enough fliers to taxi Blue Beetle all over the board and enough hitters to make anyone bleed, and with more on the way. While Martian Manhunter, GL, and Wonder Woman all need to show up some time, their roles are already taken care of, by and large; I'd prefer to see the Atom, Faith, and Manitou Raven first. Similarly, it's obvious that the main draws will always be in, in some format. There'll always be a Supes and a Bats, and possibly a Catwoman and a Flash. That's fine... but these are characters with a wide and varied history. Certainly, include them, but make them significantly different so that players will use them for cool, rather than just points. More specifically, while the electric Superman is an almost certain addition, remember that it lasted all of two years - TOPS - and was an unpopular change; a R/E/V form seems excessive. An Apokalips Supes, a Krypton Man Supes, a Kingdom Come Supes - all of these would make far better additions to the game, as they represented ACTUAL variations not only in Supes' appearance and costume, but also in his characterization. In Marvel terms, I couldn't care less about a yellow Daredevil... but I'd KILL for one when Murdock went nuts after his gf sold him out to Kingpin. The same holds true for sculpts in general - Elektra's holding a different weapon? Yawn. Deadshot's got a couple of familiar sai? Now THAT is cool.

Synergy Often, this is no big deal - the JLA team ability will almost always be useful, and I was pleasantly surprised that the Titans team ability actually worked pretty well with Hawk & Dove. OTOH, we have some that make me wonder what's going on... The Injustice League team ability's hard enough to use as it is, without factoring in that only two characters - Grundy and Grodd - are likely to both make the cut in a game AND ever use the ability, with Grodd having to tone himself down for that first. There are also problems like with Superman's LE - his leadership's useless outside of huge point games, and dubious even then; it makes no sense to give it to him for EVERY click, other than to just jack his point totals up for no reason. It's not even like Supes could use CCE with hyperspeed, anyway.

Controversy I'm talking the potential for real controversy, not the whining that everyone indulges in when something could have been just a LITTLE bit better. Yeah, WK could catch some flak for the Punisher, the Demon, or Bluntman & Chronic. It's nothing they shouldn't have gotten ALREADY for similar characters, such as Wolverine, Nightmare, or Bane.

[hellboy19]

What's wrong with Wolverine?
I like his representation in IC. He should have had more toughness, but I digress... His unique was good too. I dislike Logan because by the time he has B/C/F he cannot be carried (due to battle fury of course). But Wolvie in costume.... what's the problem?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by hellboy19
What's wrong with Wolverine?
I like his representation in IC. He should have had more toughness, but I digress... His unique was good too. I dislike Logan because by the time he has B/C/F he cannot be carried (due to battle fury of course). But Wolvie in costume.... what's the problem?

I wasn't referencing the costume, but the background - the Punisher's a controversial character because he kills people. Wolvie does the same.

[hellboy19]

Ahhhhhhhh. My mistake. Sorry.

[Grendel]

S'okay. I should have been clearer.

[The Red Raider]

While our gaming group is certianly not tournament material (heck, we wonder about rules EVERY time we play), we have got a good enough grip on the game to know that we feel things are fairly well balanced.

I got into the game because of DC (as I did with overpower). I would not be surprised if with each DC set we get a few new powers/abiliteis to keep them on par with Marvel, if need be, and to continue building interest in the game... this was DC's ploy with Overpower, too.

I'm pleased enough with the overall balance to Marvel's characters, although there's always changes I would like to see... Superman SHOULD be more powerful. Another thread had the suggestion that he is "holding back" and I agree this stays in character, but we need a Supes that does NOT hold back, as well. And, Supes should have at least one click of Regenertaion... all you have to do is show him the sun and your in trouble.

But i digress. As for future sets, my main goal is quality and playability more than drving for a tournament level set. I'm more concerned with the fun of it all, and I think so far DC and Marvel mix fairly well.