Best Outwit figure

[Danos]

Who in your opinion is the best figure with Outwit for the price (point cost)?

I really like R. Black Panther, but I keep hearing that E. Black Panther is a better value. What does everyone else think? I'm open to Marvel and DC figures.

[Brokenbrain]

Nightwing, great figure with outwit, leap/climb stealth and good stats.

[TheFallenOne]

your right on both accounts. most people i think would agree that the rookie is the way to go. hes 9 points cheaper and has free move. losing blades and claws is not to big of a deal since almost every character that attacks is usually brought in with a taxi.

[Mr. Pilkington]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding which flavor of BP to use, but almost everyone will agree that BP is the most per-point value for starting Outwit.

At the risk of sounding rant-y here (rookie BP is in my opinion the most broken figure in the game) I'll touch on it a bit. The rookie form is for one thing: cheap outwit. You aren't going to be using him for anything else. To help him with his survivability he has stealth which keeps him from being targetted by ranged attacks (unless you have Superman team, which Marvel as a set lacks). This also keeps his Outwit from being outwitted itself, so even if you do have your own outwit figure you can't negate him if he is in hindering terrain. And he has the Avengers free move to get him into hindering terrain. His downside is the small amount of outwit, but for his cost you cannot do better.

The E BP trades Avengers team for 3 clicks of B/C/F, more stealth and costs 9 more points. While the B/C/F may seem like a bargain, having the power tries to change BP's roll in your team. He is still the second cheapest outwit figure and his stats otherwise make him only an average attacker figure. People will defend him by saying that if he gets based you can hit your attacker with B/C/F, but that will rarely if ever save his Outwit. Most people who base BP do it with a taxi combo or Charge so that they can hit him that turn. They also tend to use a figure that is most likely going to hit and since BP has no defense powers he is going to take at least one click of damage. Once Outwit is gone E BP is just a so-so CC figure, with his points better spent elsewhere.

The combo of 1st-click Outwit, Stealth and free movement at 27 points makes R Black Panther the hands-down most efficient Outwit figure in the game. My problem with him sparks from said efficiency. WizKids will most likely *never* be able to make another 1st-click Outwit figure who does so much for so little, and thus R BP will be fielded forever as a mainstay of support figures. And since BP is the only 1st-click Outwit figure in the Marvel sets to date he is more or less the only choice for Outwit. Every other figure has to be played very carefully to reach those precious clicks of Outwit, and if you say need to outwit Ultron's Invulnerability to hurt him chances are he's gonna hurt you first while you try to get to your Outwit. DC is a different story, as 1st-click Outwitters are more common, but they all cost more, especially the Bat-team perma-stealth figures.

Now, as for people's *favorite* figure to use that has Outwit, so far I am fond of V Flash and Darkseid. I also need to play a big flavor of Dr. Doom sometime. :)

[Aron]

Re R Black Panther vs E

R only has 5 clicks of health and 15 defense
E has 6 and 16 defense.. that 6th click is often the difference between him being KO'd and him making it back to a medic to get healed (if he gets based) and the 16 makes him slightly tougher to hit initially.

Blades claws are nice if he has to get his hands dirty

They're so painfully close in terms of play value though its Really tough to call it

[Mr. Pilkington]

While I can see that point, unless you have a taxi for E BP he is going to be hard-pressed to get to a medic and heal in time to be much more use. If he was in hindering terrain then his move will be halved. If he is on his last click, which you mention makes him more capable of reaching a medic, his movement is a 5. Halved it becomes a 3. Chances are your medic is more than 3 away. If so, you will have to wait while BP clears (since pushing him will kill him) and then move again. All this time you are using up actions to get him there since he has no free move and then you will have to use the action(s) to try to heal him. The final issue is his lack of Stealth on that last kick. While he is moving 3 and then waiting and then moving 5 he can be sniped by a ranged attacker. And one click will KO him. So while there is a chance that the one click of life will give him the opportunity to get healed I would not bet on it. Now the extra click of Stealth goes much farther to help him survive but again he has a 6 movement (3 coming out of hindering terrain). That click of Stealth would only really help if he could keep hindering terrain between him and any ranged attackers without actually being in the terrain so that he could move faster.

One note: I don't usually other with Medics. I have found that it takes too many actions to get the hurt figure there and then successfully heal them up enough to make it all worth it. Maybe I've had bad die rolls, but I'd rather save the points that I would have spent on a medic and make my team stronger in general. If my opponent is spending actions try to get someone healed then he is doing less to hinder me directly. If I can capitalize on that (i.e. if I am *not* spending similar time/actions trying to use a medic) then I have a better chance of hurting the rest of his team. If you taxi BP back to the medic it is that much better. You have now tied up at least an additional 15 points (say rookie Vulture) in an attempt to regain your one click of Outwit. But remember, this is only my take on things, and I do not win every game I play. :)

[Mr. Pilkington]

Sorry, forgot to address the defense comment. As for the 16 vs. the rookie's 15, if your opponent sends a figure with a 9 attack against either BP they will hit with a 7, even on the E. Granted, an attacker with a 9+ and 2 damage will cost about as much as your E BP, and to get to him they'll need a taxi or a TK, which is more points, but that attacker it useful for more than just killing off your BP.

One side note, please don't feel that I am attacking your opinion. You did note that it is very hard to choose which BP is better in your opinion. I'm just discussing here. :)

[Aron]

Originally posted by Mr. Pilkington
Sorry, forgot to address the defense comment. As for the 16 vs. the rookie's 15, if your opponent sends a figure with a 9 attack against either BP they will hit with a 7, even on the E. Granted, an attacker with a 9+ and 2 damage will cost about as much as your E BP, and to get to him they'll need a taxi or a TK, which is more points, but that attacker it useful for more than just killing off your BP.

One side note, please don't feel that I am attacking your opinion. You did note that it is very hard to choose which BP is better in your opinion. I'm just discussing here. :)

No prob, I do agree with your comments, and as I said its a tough call, at least personally

as for saving BP, well keeping that click of outwit from being lost is a major asset, and even though BP can only move 3 out of hindering, he can sometimes be moved in close enough to taxi him away.. as for the 7, its a Lot better than a 6.

[Xavier PhD]

i think it is a very close and really is just preference. i find e black panther hard to incorporate into games using his bcf without losing his outwit (what he is there mostly for in the first place), but i've seen him used VERY effectively as not only an outwit piece but a powerful damage piece.

r black panther involves less strategy. essentially its there for one thing only and you will probably only move him once in the game to get to a good stealthy position.

so essentially its ease of use vs potent secondary attack figure. i think most straight forward players like rook and most nimble players choose experienced.

on a side note- i think outwit is a little overvalued as a power by many players

[Thorgrin]

Personally, I like the vet black panther. Yes, he loses stealth, but I figure if someone's gonna take the time to hit him, then they're going to do it anyway. I'll usually advance up a little bit, outwit whatever and then taxi people past him to block line of sight and tie up characters. The good part about him is if he does get hurt (and isn't ko'ed) he has leap/climb to get away and head back to the medic where as the others will have roll breakaway.

Just my personal preference. Darkseid also ranks very high up there. Who doesn't like Outwit, mind control, impervious and psychic blast? :)

[Xavier PhD]

the only problem with vet panther other than the cost is that if i see a leaping outwitter that isn't stealthed... i'm taking him down FAST. a stealthed outwitter takes more of unit devotion and it cuts down on what kind of pieces can actually effectively be used to attack BP.

with a leaping climbing BP anyone can take a pot shot at him and don't forget if he isn't in stealth you can outwit his outwit.