Hypersonic + BCF?

[rollinsolo]

Could you use Hypersonic with Blades Claws? Fangs?

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack.This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack. This character can continue to use the rest of its movement (if any) after making the attack.


I guess I'm asking whether the free action to make a close combat attack would activate Blades Claws which requires a close combat action.

[W.I.T]

No, because HSS, as you said, grants a Close Combat Attack, and BCF is a Close Combat Action.

[Harpua]

No, because HSS, as you said, grants a Close Combat Attack, and BCF is a Close Combat Action.
BCF is not itself an action of any kind, but it does require a close combat action.

[rollinsolo]

Cool, that's what we decided. Thanks all.

[omnimon177]

Zoom can if you can find a way to give him B/C/F...

[BudPalmer]

Zoom can if you can find a way to give him B/C/F...

Gizmo! ;)

[Phoenix_Icewing]

Gizmo! ;)

Success!!!!! i might even actually do that... except that id be so worried that id just roll 1's. id rather put 2 perplexers in the O'geneus's place. haha

[nbperp]

Zoom can if you can find a way to give him B/C/F...

Hate to be a killjoy, but no.

BCF only activates when you give the character a close combat action. Zoom's special power states:
Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

See the underlined portion. He doesn't get a close combat action instead of a close combat attack. He gets a FREE action. So when Flurry states:
Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

Zoom's power allows him to replace the underlined close combat action with a free action.



This is why I personally prefer that people explain these interactions rather than building "compatibility charts". A compatibility chart that explains how standard powers work together is fine, because it's a limited universe. But with special powers, the ways in which those things combine demands that one understands actions and attacks. The result is people thinking "Flurry and BCF work together," and applying that to everything.

[tridentbloo]

@ nbperp I like the use of the soap box very dramatic! excellent.
Trident

[Quebbster]

Hate to be a killjoy, but no.

BCF only activates when you give the character a close combat action. Zoom's special power states:


See the underlined portion. He doesn't get a close combat action instead of a close combat attack. He gets a FREE action. So when Flurry states:


Zoom's power allows him to replace the underlined close combat action with a free action.
I have always ruled that it does work since there is a precedent - back when Mutations and Monsters was released I asked (over at the WK Judges forum...) if Rampaging Hulk was allowed use Leap/Climb to target an enemy on a different elevation level with his Squash-Quake - the Quake attack is a free action and not a close combat action.
The official answer I got was that it did work - even though Quake is used as a free action it is still considered a close combat action for the intents and purposes of activating other powers. If it works for Rampaging Hulk it should work for Zoom, too.
(and let's ignore the incompatibility of Quake and L/C for a moment... when the question was asked and the answer was given consensus was that it was a legal combo)

[Harpua]

I have always ruled that it does work since there is a precedent - back when Mutations and Monsters was released I asked (over at the WK Judges forum...) if Rampaging Hulk was allowed use Leap/Climb to target an enemy on a different elevation level with his Squash-Quake - the Quake attack is a free action and not a close combat action.
The official answer I got was that it did work - even though Quake is used as a free action it is still considered a close combat action for the intents and purposes of activating other powers. If it works for Rampaging Hulk it should work for Zoom, too.
(and let's ignore the incompatibility of Quake and L/C for a moment... when the question was asked and the answer was given consensus was that it was a legal combo)

Yeah, that's my understanding, too.

[Quebbster]

Yeah, that's my understanding, too.

*waiting for Norm to put on his "I'm the boss, dammit!" hat*

[nbperp]

*waiting for Norm to put on his "I'm the boss, dammit!" hat*

OK - I am taking this discussion offline.

I can see the different sides here - we need to discuss.

[Harpua]

*waiting for Norm to put on his "I'm the boss, dammit!" hat*

We're going to get nailed for insubordination.

[nbperp]

We're going to get nailed...

That's what she said.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

dont wanna interrupt while were waiting but i do wanna say it...
Charge, RS both give "as a free action"s too, but still activate other powers. Charge+Flurry for example, we know it works, even if flurry is the free action replacing the standard Combat Action given with charge.
Zoom's example makes it worded just like charge is, without all the extra breakaway/movement that HSS gives.

just sayin. =^^=

[Harpua]

dont wanna interrupt while were waiting but i do wanna say it...
Charge, RS both give "as a free action"s too, but still activate other powers. Charge+Flurry for example, we know it works, even if flurry is the free action replacing the standard Combat Action given with charge.
Zoom's example makes it worded just like charge is, without all the extra breakaway/movement that HSS gives.

just sayin. =^^=

There's a big difference in the wording.

Charge
Give this character a power action; halve its speed value for the action. Move this character up to its replacement speed value and then give it one close combat action as a free action. A character with this power ignores knock back.

I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR: Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

I've had issues with the wording of this one since the get-go, but the intention is clear, so I've never made a big deal out of it.

Anyway, with Charge you are still definitely giving the close combat action.

With Zoom's power, the question is whether it is working like Charge or if something is actually altering the internal wording of Flurry.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

sorry, ive got math for brains at times, and im seeing it as a function within a function.
as i see it...

"HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack."

and for Zoom- I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR- Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

and FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

so i read it as
Give Zoom a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, Zoom can as a free action 1) make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack, or 2) make one close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If Zoom loses this power before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack. Zoom cannot move between the two attacks. In either option, Zoom must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.

i hope that helps you follow my logic. Again, its just how i read it, and i would have typed it better but i had to jet for a bit. Sorry!

[nbperp]

so i read it as
Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action 1) make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack, or 2) make one close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses This power before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack, and cannot move between the two attacks. In either option, this character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.


I don't see how you get from "can use Flurry" to "make one close combat action".

[Phoenix_Icewing]

I don't see how you get from "can use Flurry" to "make one close combat action".

copying it directly from what flurry does- make one close combat action (still as a free action, thats why i put the 1) and 2) after that caveot))

EDIT- would "2) Can use Flurry to make one close combat action...(the rest)" be a better wording?

[Harpua]

I don't see how you get from "can use Flurry" to "make one close combat action".

I'm with Phoenix-Nightwing in that I see the close combat action as as much a part of Flurry as the attacks.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

I'm with Phoenix-Nightwing in that I see the close combat action as as much a part of Flurry as the attacks.

Suddenly.. Ouchmaker's signature comes to mind...

[ShadowMark]

"HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack."

and for Zoom- I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR- Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

and FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

so i read it as
Give Zoom a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, Zoom can as a free action 1) make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack, or 2) make one close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If Zoom loses this power before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack. Zoom cannot move between the two attacks. In either option, Zoom must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.



I think the confusion is coming in the way of the free action that HSS gives.

Like has been stated in past rulings, it's the action that gives the attack.
In the case of HSS, the free action grants the use of a free attack. Much like Flurry, which is a Close Combat Action that grants the use of 2 free close combat attacks

In the case of Zoom, he has a SP, which as we all know, loves to cause confusion. In this case, they added a bonus for Zoom, in the fact that he does not have to use an attack, but can use Flurry instead.

Think of Zoom as having 3 options for HSS instead of 2:

He can make a ranged attack- range halved
He can make a normal close combat attack
Or, he can use flurry, but can't move in between attacks while using flurry

[irishflogger]

Just posting to subscribe to the forum. I want to see the end result.

[Suttkus]

At the top of the page, there's a box called "Thread tools". One of your choices there is "subscribe to thread".

[omnimon177]

Or you can just post in the thread and both subscribe to and bump the thread.

It's a wording discussion at this point and we just have to wait and see what all the behind the scenes discussion boils down to.

[irishflogger]

So, are we going to get an answer to this or are they still talking about it? It has been over a week now.

[BudPalmer]

So, are we going to get an answer to this or are they still talking about it? It has been over a week now.

● You may rely on it

[nbperp]

So, are we going to get an answer to this or are they still talking about it? It has been over a week now.

Still waiting on a reply from WK

[BudPalmer]

Still waiting on a reply from WK
● Reply hazy, try again

[fastcat99]

I was thinking, since Zoom can use Flurry instead, then can't he use everything that can go along with it, like BCF?

[spike1138]

Still waiting on a reply from WK

What he's trying to say is...

*Shakes Magic 8-Ball*

● Ask again later

[Surfer13]

I am not one of the gurus, but I want to weigh in on this.

I do not see how "... or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry" can translate into "He can use B/C/F if he somehow manages to get it".

It certainly isn't keeping with any simplification philosophy. I would vote to change Hulk and make him less good in the sake of simplification.

Sacrifice a character, not the English language.

[ThorKnigh83]

the reason for that is the power flurry says give the character a close combat action and any time you give a close combat action B/C/F can be used. So thats where its coming from. that is being literal to the english language actually. It takes a close combat action to activate B/C/F and since the power does not state that it is not a close combat action being used then per the power's text it would be that. and yes i used run ons and i am lecturing on use of the english language. ironic huh hahahahaha

[normalview]

For what it is worth, while there is still some ongoing discussion between the Deputies, the RA, and GD, it is looking like Zoom's Flurry would not activate BCF and, yes, this does run counter to the Hulk L/C-and-Quake ruling which would then need reversing.


Still under discussion, but that is what it looks like will happen. We'll let you know when a decision has been made.

[Dragon_Rose]

why are we having this discussion? Zoom does not have B/F/C.

[Surfer13]

why are we having this discussion? Zoom does not have B/F/C.

But there is a way that he can obtain that power, and maybe more in the future.

the reason for that is the power flurry says give the character a close combat action and any time you give a close combat action B/C/F can be used. So thats where its coming from. that is being literal to the english language actually.
But it doesn't say that you can give him a close combat action to activate flurry only, it says that he can use flurry instead of making a close combat attack.
That is where I am at.
Special powers change how things work, especially when they modify an existing standard power. I am no psychic, but I like to think that I can figure out some intent, and I do not see any intent to let Zoom use a close combat action with HSS, just to let him use flurry as a close combat attack. :)

[BigSoph]

I don't see how you get from "can use Flurry" to "make one close combat action".

I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR: Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

Actually, the way this SP is worded, you cannot use them together. It does not change the essence of Flurry - i.e. it does not say "you may use Flurry as a free action", it just says you can use Flurry. And we all know that, unless a SP says otherwise, the power granted by an SP follows the rules of that power on the PAC

So unless it specifically says that Flurry's requirements have changed or that they can make a close combat action as a free action but can only use Flurry, the two powers are incompatible

The refernce to movement at the end is a complete non-sequitur

[normalview]

Actually, the way this SP is worded, you cannot use them together. It does not change the essence of Flurry - i.e. it does not say "you may use Flurry as a free action", it just says you can use Flurry. And we all know that, unless a SP says otherwise, the power granted by an SP follows the rules of that power on the PAC

The SP does say otherwise, though. Specifically, it says he can use Flurry instead of making the normal close combat attack that is typically done in HSS. This is different than other clear cut instances of "no, those are two different and incompatible powers", where the SP says something like "this character can use X and Y" and both X and Y just don't mesh. Zoom's SP gives us a situation were we have, "this character can do X and then, during that thing that X normally does, you can use Y instead."



Where the confusion comes in, then, is whether being able to use Flurry in this fashion still counted as a close combat action (and would thus also trigger BCF) or if it was now considered purely a free action (and no BCF trigger).

The refernce to movement at the end is a complete non-sequitur

Not in the least. Without that line, at the very least you'd have people asking left and right if he could move between Flurry attacks... after all the attack would come during the HSS action. Even though it would stand to reason that you'd have resolve the entire free action first, there is enough of a grey area there that I, for one, am very glad that this was covered in the power description.

[Harpua]

I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR: Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

Actually, the way this SP is worded, you cannot use them together. It does not change the essence of Flurry - i.e. it does not say "you may use Flurry as a free action", it just says you can use Flurry. And we all know that, unless a SP says otherwise, the power granted by an SP follows the rules of that power on the PAC

So unless it specifically says that Flurry's requirements have changed or that they can make a close combat action as a free action but can only use Flurry, the two powers are incompatible

The refernce to movement at the end is a complete non-sequitur

For what it's worth, I've been saying that since the power came out, but knowing what the intention clearly is, never made a huge issue out of it. Now that it actually matters....well, it's in GD's hands to decide.

It doesn't override anything. The description of Flurry still includes giving a close combat action.

[BigSoph]

The SP does say otherwise, though. Specifically, it says he can use Flurry instead of making the normal close combat attack that is typically done in HSS.

No, it does not.

It only says you can use Flurry. There is no compatibility patch

Example, Rampaging Hulk can use Leap/Climb. Immediately after the resolution of a move action in which the Rampaging Hulk uses Leap/Climb, he can use Quake as a free action. (there is the compatibility patch)

I fully understand the intent

[normalview]

No, it does not.

It only says you can use Flurry. There is no compatibility patch

Example, Rampaging Hulk can use Leap/Climb. Immediately after the resolution of a move action in which the Rampaging Hulk uses Leap/Climb, he can use Quake as a free action. (there is the compatibility patch)

I fully understand the intent

The only difference is that Rampaging Hulk's SP specifies exactly what type of action Quake becomes. We can infer that the Flurry is a free action, since it replacing the free attack, but otherwise it is quite clear that Flurry is indeed used during the HSS action.

[adamkomar]

sorry, ive got math for brains at times, and im seeing it as a function within a function.
as i see it...

"HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack."

and for Zoom- I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR- Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

and FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

so i read it as
Give Zoom a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, Zoom can as a free action 1) make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack, or 2) make one close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If Zoom loses this power before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack. Zoom cannot move between the two attacks. In either option, Zoom must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.

i hope that helps you follow my logic. Again, its just how i read it, and i would have typed it better but i had to jet for a bit. Sorry!

I don't see how you get from "can use Flurry" to "make one close combat action".

copying it directly from what flurry does- make one close combat action (still as a free action, thats why i put the 1) and 2) after that caveot))

EDIT- would "2) Can use Flurry to make one close combat action...(the rest)" be a better wording?

Phoenix, I see what you were trying to do there and I like where your head's at, but you weren't, in fact, copying directly from what Flurry does and that made your point unclear. You just had your own summation of what it does. When directly copying the wording, the point seems clear to me.

For my own easy reference, everything in it's printed form:

Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack.This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack. This character can continue to use the rest of its movement (if any) after making the attack.

Give this character a close combat action. It makes two separate close combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls) against one or two adjacent targets. Resolve the first attack before making the second. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can not move between making attacks using Flurry.

Once per game (but not during another action) when Mikron O'Jeneus is adjacent to a non-held object, as a free action remove that object from the game and choose a standard attack power. Mikron O'Jeneus and up to two friendly characters adjacent to Mikron O'Jeneus can use that power until the beginning of your next turn (even if they are no longer adjacent to Mikron O'Jeneus).

The big wrench thrown into this machine is the wording of Zoom's I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR. It says "instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry". So it stands to reason for me that the "close combat or ranged combat attack" part of Hypersonic would be replaced with "use Flurry":

Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action use Flurry.This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack. This character can continue to use the rest of its movement (if any) after making the attack.

To me, that says, "Everything that happens within Flurry is happening within a free action". Giving the character a close combat action is part of what happens within Flurry. Since Blades/Claws/Fangs can be activated when the character is given a close combat action, if Zoom is allowed use of Blades/Claws/Fangs via Unbelievable Weaponry and he uses Flurry during Hypersonic Speed then he should be able to activate Blades/Claws/Fangs when he uses Flurry.

That seems crystal clear to me and the only reason I can fathom for it not being allowed is because it's thought to be omgz0rzb0rk3n!111!!11

But I don't think it's broken when I can do any of the following to stop it from happening:
1) Throw up a Smoke Cloud between Zoom and my characters.
2) Use Outwit on I'LLMAAAAKEYOUBETTTTTERRR or Unbelievable Weaponry.
3) Pick up, TK or destroy the object needed to use Unbelievable Weaponry.
4) Punch Mikron in the throat for at least 3 damage.

And that's just the featless options.

It's a damn awesome thing to be able to use Hypersonic Speed, Flurry and Blades/Claws/Fangs together, but it's far from broken and I hope we're above ruling it out because it is viewed as such.

[happyoptimistic88]

No sorry, you can't use them together, but that would be cool. Certain figures could have it with a special ability. But very few characters could do that. I am not sure, right off the bat who would be able to actually do that in DC or Marvel.

Could you use Hypersonic with Blades Claws? Fangs?

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack.This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack. This character can continue to use the rest of its movement (if any) after making the attack.


I guess I'm asking whether the free action to make a close combat attack would activate Blades Claws which requires a close combat action.

[normalview]

It's a damn awesome thing to be able to use Hypersonic Speed, Flurry and Blades/Claws/Fangs together, but it's far from broken and I hope we're above ruling it out because it is viewed as such.

It's got nothing to do with being "broken". The instances where it could even happen are so unlikely (Mic=kron's SP is the only way I can think of... so you'd need, at a minimum, a team with both Mikron and Zoom), that if you could pull it off, more power to you.


Instead, it is all about what an action is. An action is not a power and a power is not an action. You can use an action to activate a power, sure, but that does not make them equivalent. Just because an SP let's a character use Flurry (or Quake, or Incap, or whatever) doesn't necessarily mean that the character must also have been given a close combat action; powers are not synonymous with actions.

So we need to ask ourselves, "What kind of action is given to use Flurry in Zoom's SP? Normally, Flurry is activated by giving the characer a close combat action, but is that true here?" And Zoom's SP doesn't really say exactly what type of action it is, so we need to look at HSS and how Flurry is inserted there. Right now, we're leaning toward Flurry being a free action (and not a close combat action), since it is replacing the free close combat attack.

And if it is, indeed, a free action... well, that won't trigger BCF.

Like I said earlier, we're still hashing it out, but this is the direction we're leaning towards right now.

[Phoenix_Icewing]

Phoenix, I see what you were trying to do there and I like where your head's at, but you weren't, in fact, copying directly from what Flurry does and that made your point unclear. You just had your own summation of what it does. When directly copying the wording, the point seems clear to me.

actually, the quote came directly from the PAC, copy and paste. i dont remember which PAC offhand, though, other than adjacency being removed, i thought BN and FF were point for point. no summation of mine in the quote, and the summation i made for HSS+BCF later was all cut and paste of the different other quotes, except where re-wording was needed.

just adding this for clarity's sake.

EDIT- Quotes for powers were copied from BN PAC.

Also, I'd be all for errata making Zoom's power change to "As a free action" for the Flurry. no retractions on old compatibility and no confusion, until someone else tries it and their victim posts it up on the realms.

[dweez009]

Still no answer huh....... :)

GenCon is Coming.

[Schadenfreude]

Still no answer huh....... :)

GenCon is Coming.


If you (or anyone) play with both Mikron and Zoom on your team at GenCon and you play against me,* then I will stipulate for our game that you can use Hypersonic/Flurry/Blades together. :)


* Note: I will not be at GenCon, but I totally would let you do it if I was going to be there. :p

[dweez009]

Will there be an answer before Gencon Daily Bump.

[SimsThePirate]

Daily bump for this ruling as well.

[normalview]

We are aware of the problem and are still awaiting a final answer.

When we know, you'll know.

[dweez009]

We are aware of the problem and are still awaiting a final answer.

When we know, you'll know.
I understand....still GENCon is Coming !!!!:confused:

[nbperp]

The answer is that Zoom is being given a free action. Not a close combat action. The free action lets him use Flurry. Flurry itself, which normally requires a Close Combat action, is activated via a free action instead. While that allows him to use Flurry, it would not activate Blades, as there is not CC action being given/activated.

There's a combo with Leap/Climb and Quake of a similar nature with a Hulk that this would apply to as well.

[The7ofDiamonds]

The answer is that Zoom is being given a free action. Not a close combat action. The free action lets him use Flurry. Flurry itself, which normally requires a Close Combat action, is activated via a free action instead. While that allows him to use Flurry, it would not activate Blades, as there is not CC action being given/activated.

There's a combo with Leap/Climb and Quake of a similar nature with a Hulk that this would apply to as well.

Good stuff. I like that answer.

[dweez009]

The answer is that Zoom is being given a free action. Not a close combat action. The free action lets him use Flurry. Flurry itself, which normally requires a Close Combat action, is activated via a free action instead. While that allows him to use Flurry, it would not activate Blades, as there is not CC action being given/activated.

There's a combo with Leap/Climb and Quake of a similar nature with a Hulk that this would apply to as well.

Thats not the answer I wanted but any ruling is better than none at all.

[ThwartHog]

The answer is that Zoom is being given a free action. Not a close combat action. The free action lets him use Flurry. Flurry itself, which normally requires a Close Combat action, is activated via a free action instead. While that allows him to use Flurry, it would not activate Blades, as there is not CC action being given/activated.

There's a combo with Leap/Climb and Quake of a similar nature with a Hulk that this would apply to as well.

This ruling still does not quite make sense to me. Powers that start with the words: "Give this character a ______ action..." should be considered the type of action that was indicated.

Charge is a Power Action. It is not a free action that activates from an unidentified or generic power action. Likewise, Pulse Wave is a Ranged combat action, and Flurry is a Close combat action.

When Zoom's SP allows him to use flurry, it allows him to use a Close Combat Action. Flurry is the 1st and 2nd attack, not just the 2nd attack that is considered a free action. If your ruling was correct, Zoom would be replacing the close combat attack part of HSS, with only the 2nd attack of Flurry, which would result in an identical situation as if he had just used HSS normally. Note the underlined below...

Zoom can use Hypersonic Speed. He can use it normally, or instead of making a close combat attack he can use Flurry; Zoom can continue to use the rest of his movement (if any) after using Flurry, but he can’t move between making attacks using Flurry.

[Quebbster]

This ruling still does not quite make sense to me. Powers that start with the words: "Give this character a ______ action..." should be considered the type of action that was indicated.

Charge is a Power Action. It is not a free action that activates from an unidentified or generic power action. Likewise, Pulse Wave is a Ranged combat action, and Flurry is a Close combat action.

When Zoom's SP allows him to use flurry, it allows him to use a Close Combat Action. Flurry is the 1st and 2nd attack, not just the 2nd attack that is considered a free action. If your ruling was correct, Zoom would be replacing the close combat attack part of HSS, with only the 2nd attack of Flurry, which would result in an identical situation as if he had just used HSS normally. Note the underlined below...
I love the implication that the 'correct' ruling is independent of interpretation.
Just saying.

[ThwartHog]

I love the implication that the 'correct' ruling is independent of interpretation.
Just saying.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. The ruling was given by the big man, reconsidered and deliberated offline, and reaffirmed. That's more of an answer to the question, than an independent interpretation. I think I made a valid argument. Waiting for a response. Hoping for civil debate, and that grudges from past conflicts might have simmered down by now.

[Quebbster]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. The ruling was given by the big man, reconsidered and deliberated offline, and reaffirmed. That's more of an answer to the question, than an independent interpretation. I think I made a valid argument. Waiting for a response. Hoping for civil debate, and that grudges from past conflicts might have simmered down by now.
That's cool, I wasn't offended.

[dweez009]

This ruling still does not quite make sense to me. Powers that start with the words: "Give this character a ______ action..." should be considered the type of action that was indicated.

Charge is a Power Action. It is not a free action that activates from an unidentified or generic power action. Likewise, Pulse Wave is a Ranged combat action, and Flurry is a Close combat action.

When Zoom's SP allows him to use flurry, it allows him to use a Close Combat Action. Flurry is the 1st and 2nd attack, not just the 2nd attack that is considered a free action. If your ruling was correct, Zoom would be replacing the close combat attack part of HSS, with only the 2nd attack of Flurry, which would result in an identical situation as if he had just used HSS normally. Note the underlined below...
Im not sure I understand this but does this mean that you feel the word "use" should indicate or mean that "use" should fill in for the action type required to activate the power?

[normalview]

Charge is a Power Action. It is not a free action that activates from an unidentified or generic power action. Likewise, Pulse Wave is a Ranged combat action, and Flurry is a Close combat action.

And there lies the problem: power are NOT actions.

Actions can be used to activate some powers (and the power descriptions say so in those cases), but other powers can do things without an action and many actions can do things that do not activate powers.

To say the two are equivalent (power = action) is faulty.

It is more correct to say, "Charge is activated by a power action," or, "I am giving this character a close combat action to use Flurry." In the case of Zoom's SP, the description there says that you give a Zoom a free action to use Flurry... so in this case, the activating action is the free action and not a close combat action.

[dweez009]

so according to this ruling he cant exploit with this flurry. Or could he ever?

[Harpua]

so according to this ruling he cant exploit with this flurry. Or could he ever?

Nobody can. Both require the giving of a close combat action.

[nbperp]

so according to this ruling he cant exploit with this flurry. Or could he ever?

Flurry requires a close combat action. Exploit Weakness requires a close combat action. One close combat action cannot be used to activate 2 different powers. It wouldn't matter if it were Zoom or a regular Flurry/Exploiter - they do not work together.

[dweez009]

Flurry requires a close combat action. Exploit Weakness requires a close combat action. One close combat action cannot be used to activate 2 different powers. It wouldn't matter if it were Zoom or a regular Flurry/Exploiter - they do not work together.

Just tryin to avoid and problems. THX guys.

[ThwartHog]

And there lies the problem: power are NOT actions.

Actions can be used to activate some powers (and the power descriptions say so in those cases), but other powers can do things without an action and many actions can do things that do not activate powers.

To say the two are equivalent (power = action) is faulty.

It is more correct to say, "Charge is activated by a power action," or, "I am giving this character a close combat action to use Flurry." In the case of Zoom's SP, the description there says that you give a Zoom a free action to use Flurry... so in this case, the activating action is the free action and not a close combat action.

Yes I realize that powers are not actions. I guess I was trying to differentiate between powers that say "give this character a ____ action" and other powers that say "when this character is given a ____ action". These seem to be written differently for a purpose, and if a power says "Give this character a close combat action... it is telling you what is required. Flurry does exactly this.

Zoom can use Flurry (as a free action) instead of making a close combat attack (as a free action). Flurry requires a close combat action, per the power description, also per this post by the RA:

Flurry requires a close combat action. Exploit Weakness requires a close combat action. One close combat action cannot be used to activate 2 different powers. It wouldn't matter if it were Zoom or a regular Flurry/Exploiter - they do not work together.



A free action can be an action of any type. In this particular case, Flurry, which is a Close Combat Action, is granted as the free action part of Zoom's SP.

TYPES OF ACTIONS
There are four types of actions that you can give to a character:
• Power action
• Move action
• Close combat action
• Ranged combat action
Each of these four action types can be given to a character as a free action when game effects allow.

[The7ofDiamonds]

I 100% stand beside this ruling because it really comes down to the way that the power is worded. It's how the flurry gets replaced in Zoom's power that defines this ruling.

Reference Nbperps earlier post for example. http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4704397&postcount=8

You normally give someone a close or ranged combat attack as a free action, but in this case you activate flurry via hypersonic's free action, but instead of it being a close or ranged combat attack, you use it to activate flurry instead of activating flurry by using a close combat action.

[SimsThePirate]

And ffs, quit arguing. It's the ruling, why keep on when it has been ruled to not work? Obviously nbperp is the definitive voice of the RA bodies and is far more qualified to decide if it works or not. You can not like it all you want, but now you're just reaching and tbh it looks kind of pathetic.

[ThwartHog]

I 100% stand beside this ruling because it really comes down to the way that the power is worded. It's how the flurry gets replaced in Zoom's power that defines this ruling.

Reference Nbperps earlier post for example. http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4704397&postcount=8

You normally give someone a close or ranged combat attack as a free action, but in this case you activate flurry via hypersonic's free action, but instead of it being a close or ranged combat attack, you use it to activate flurry instead of activating flurry by using a close combat action.

You don't normally do anything as a free action, you do what is described in the official texts. During a Charge, you are granted a Close Combat Action as a free action. During Running Shot, you are granted a Ranged Combat Action as a free action. Those are two examples of Combat Actions granted as free actions. Flurry is by definition activated or triggered by a Close Combat Action. I haven't seen anything in the text of HSS, Flurry, or Zoom's SP that would change that. You replace the free action of a standard close combat attack, with the free action of a Flurry Close combat action.


I don't know where this Flurry is a free action stuff is coming from. Yes, the SP grants HSS which grants a free action. That free action then changes from a close combat attack to a close combat action, because that is what Flurry is.

Zoom's HSS would read like this if he chose to utilize his SP to Flurry:

HYPERSONIC SPEED Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action use Flurry. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.

Then you read the text for Flurry:

FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

And ffs, quit arguing. It's the ruling, why keep on when it has been ruled to not work? Obviously nbperp is the definitive voice of the RA bodies and is far more qualified to decide if it works or not. You can not like it all you want, but now you're just reaching and tbh it looks kind of pathetic.

This is a forum to discuss the rules of the game. We can all throw our own ideas and rule interpretations out there. No one is perfect, even the "RA bodies". Neither am I... far from it, but am certainly not a noob. I just disagree with the ruling here and wanted to add my opinion. Maybe someone will clarify this for me, but if you don't like what I'm writing, no one is stopping you from moving on to the next pathetic poster or thread that grabs your interest.

[The7ofDiamonds]

Yes see, but that close combat action describes how you activate the standard use of flurry.... due to the way the power is worded, you are now granted the use of flurry instead of the close or ranged combat attack as a free action... so to activate flurry, rather than activating it via the usual close combat attack, you are granted it per the free action in the middle of hypersonic to activate it.

[normalview]

Maybe someone will clarify this for me,

It has been clarified.

The action is a free action. Not a close combat action.


Since it is not a close combat action, nothing that would activate when a close combat action is given (e.g. BCF) is activated.


That is the whole answer.

Now you may not care for that answer, and that is fine (lots of little wrinkles to this game and not all of them are appreciated by everyone that plays), but you certainly can't argue that it isn't clear what the ruling is based on.

[dweez009]

I wish I could understand what you guys are talking about. :/

[dweez009]

Actually I think this is a fair ruling. I don't like it but it's fair. You have to consider new players as well as the vets. If he could run up to you and hit you for 13, then run away I'd be pretty peaved if it happened to me so it's cool I'll settle for 13 the easy way.

[SimsThePirate]

This is a forum to discuss the rules of the game. We can all throw our own ideas and rule interpretations out there. No one is perfect, even the "RA bodies". Neither am I... far from it, but am certainly not a noob. I just disagree with the ruling here and wanted to add my opinion. Maybe someone will clarify this for me, but if you don't like what I'm writing, no one is stopping you from moving on to the next pathetic poster or thread that grabs your interest.

You're right. You are free to throw out your opinions, which you did. A ruling was asked for from those that decide the rules, one was provided. Now you're just whining. It has been clarified no less than three times already, but you just want to argue for nothing. It is ruled. That's it. No more. Nada. Zip. Zilch. They felt the spirit of the power was that it grants flurry as a free action, which prevents B/C/F from activating. It doesn't matter what the power says, as the SP allowing the action would override the text anyhow; it's nothing new if you're "certainly not a noob."

In other words, just let it go. The ruling is there, the explanation is there.

[Harpua]

You're right. You are free to throw out your opinions, which you did. A ruling was asked for from those that decide the rules, one was provided. Now you're just whining. It has been clarified no less than three times already, but you just want to argue for nothing. It is ruled. That's it. No more. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
I would thoroughly disagree with this. As long as NEW stuff is being presented, by all means continue to make a case. Rehashing the same things over and over is no good, but to make a general statement that a ruling can't be challenge is just bad.
They felt the spirit of the power was that it grants flurry as a free action, which prevents B/C/F from activating. It doesn't matter what the power says, as the SP allowing the action would override the text anyhow; it's nothing new if you're "certainly not a noob."
I also disagree with this with every fiber of my being.
The wording of the rules MUST support the ruling.
In other words, just let it go. The ruling is there, the explanation is there.
I've seen rulings reversed after something new has been presented.

[SimsThePirate]

I also disagree with this with every fiber of my being.
The wording of the rules MUST support the ruling.

I've seen rulings reversed after something new has been presented.

I just don't see it happening in this instance. People are continuously looking for some kind of exploit to use other powers with HSS. It's already a very powerful action on its own. Zoom can use Flurry with it, but that's just not good enough for some people. They need the piece to be broken. I think if this ruling were reversed it would be the opposite of a good and fair ruling.

Also, I wasn't saying the words must not support the ruling, however, just because an free close combat attack is replaced with a flurry on a special power doesn't mean it is now being given a close combat action. In fact:

Hypersonic Speed: Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack.

if you consider the fact that this gives a free action and you replace a close combat action with a flurry, it seems like it would still be a free action granted by HSS, regardless of what Flurry's activation conditions are. A special power can give special rules and activation requirements for standard and named powers and as far as I have seen, this doesn't change that fact.

[The7ofDiamonds]

I just don't see it happening in this instance. People are continuously looking for some kind of exploit to use other powers with HSS. It's already a very powerful action on its own. Zoom can use Flurry with it, but that's just not good enough for some people. They need the piece to be broken. I think if this ruling were reversed it would be the opposite of a good and fair ruling.

Also, I wasn't saying the words must not support the ruling, however, just because an free close combat attack is replaced with a flurry on a special power doesn't mean it is now being given a close combat action. In fact:



if you consider the fact that this gives a free action and you replace a close combat action with a flurry, it seems like it would still be a free action granted by HSS, regardless of what Flurry's activation conditions are. A special power can give special rules and activation requirements for standard and named powers and as far as I have seen, this doesn't change that fact.

You're 1) looking at this too personally and 2) looking at this based on how powerful the combination is. Stop.

There are two things that come into consideration when determining how a power works and how it's compatible with other powers and game elements. First and foremost is the actual wording of the power. Second is intent. It's rare that the intent of the power doesn't sync with how the power works, but if they are misaligned, it's not unprecedented for an errata or a clarification to be released that explains the intent of the power to prevent either further misinterpretations or in some cases, abuse.

[ThwartHog]

Just another nugget to toss in this discussion. From a slightly different angle.

Some powers require that a character be given an action in order to activate, or activate only when you give a character a specific type of action. To use one of these powers, the player must declare that the character is being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the character will activate a power.

This paragraph stresses that some powers require a specific type of action to activate.

Zoom's SP grants HSS...

HSS grants a free action...

A free action can be used to make a Close Combat Action...

Flurry specifically requires a Close Combat Action...

Now, does Zoom's SP override the requirement that Flurry be activated by a Close Combat Action? The powers that be, seem to be saying 'yes'. While I would contend that a free action that originally granted a simple close combat attack (which can be granted by an SP and not require a close combat action), now grants a power (Flurry), which has a built in requirement (a close combat action) that the close combat attack did not.

The argument has been stated that a Power is not an action. This is true. But likewise, an attack is not a power, an attack is not an action. To say, since an close combat action wasn't required for the close combat attack, therefore no close combat action is required for Flurry (which is a power), is to say that an attack is equal to a power. That's not so, they are completely different game effects.

There is a lot of precedence in this game, for combat attacks to not require combat actions. Can you find a precedence where a power (such as Flurry) that requires a combat action, has that requirement removed by another game effect?

[normalview]

This paragraph stresses that some powers require a specific type of action to activate.



Right. And sometimes, SPs redefine what those actions are.

For example:

Supersonic Punch: The Flash can use Quake as part of a close combat attack (instead of a close combat action), but targets of the attack are not knocked back.


Now, in this case, the activating action as the free action in HSS that then allowed Flash to use a close combat attack (which would then allow Supersonic Punch to be used).

All Zoom's power did was cut out the need for a second power.



And you keep mentioning that free actions can be any kind of action, which is true... but they can also be just free actions, too. See Perplex and Outwit, after all.




Flurry is a free action when Zoom uses it, and a free action only. It doesn't have to be a close combat action in disguise, because Zoom's special power says it is a free action (and not a free close combat action or some such).

[ThorKnigh83]

why not reword it just like Supersonic punch and say The flash can use flurry as a close combat attack instead of a close combat action when using HSS.

[normalview]

why not reword it just like Supersonic punch and say The flash can use flurry as a close combat attack instead of a close combat action when using HSS.

Because it is that is unncessary with the clarification and we like to keep errata to a minimum whenever possible.

If the card had been written that way originally, great, but as it is a single clarification entry covering action types will cover this power, Hulk's Squash and any future powers rather than go through and re-writing each of them.

[ThwartHog]

why not reword it just like Supersonic punch and say The flash can use flurry as a close combat attack instead of a close combat action when using HSS.

I agree with this, as Supersonic punch redefines the power Quake in the description. Zoom's SP only says to use Flurry as a free action. I can do this without redefining anything. Beause a close combat action can be a free action. You can folllow the SP and Flurry texts exactly, without redefining Flurry, and everything would still be legal.

I do however understand Normalviews argument and agree that it is a valid one. I think mine is too, but I am not in charge, so I will not argue the point any further, unless asked to do so.

Thanks for your time Normalview.