New wild card rules and Skrull TA

[cosmefulanito]

Maybe this is a silly question and if so, sorry.

So according to the new rules on Wild Cards, i cant copy a TA that would make a declared action illegal, so no more copying Batman ally just before ranged attacks. But what about a TA that MIGHT make the action illegal, like Skrull?? Can i copy Skrull just before an attack that would be made illegal if i roll a 6? say close combat attack with no other adjacent clix.

Thanks in advance.

[Maraud]

Maybe this is a silly question and if so, sorry.

So according to the new rules on Wild Cards, i cant copy a TA that would make a declared action illegal, so no more copying Batman ally just before ranged attacks. But what about a TA that MIGHT make the action illegal, like Skrull?? Can i copy Skrull just before an attack that would be made illegal if i roll a 6? say close combat attack with no other adjacent clix.

Thanks in advance.

yes you can, by declaring the TA the action is not illegal.

[nbperp]

There's a lot of questions about this that comes up. The truth is, the line about wild cards and illegal actions has been in the rulebook for years. The change is only altering the result, not the way in which the situation arises.

It used to be that if I declared a ranged attack and you declared Batman Ally, making my action illegal, then I would get to redeclare my action. Over the years, this redeclared action has changed from "the character acting has to redeclare" to "the character acting is allowed to redeclare, but doesn't have to" to "any figure on the team the character is on is allowed to redeclare".

So now, the rule has changed from allowing redeclaration to simply not permitting the change in the first place.

[zero_cochrane]

Declaring the Skrull TA doesn't make the action automatically illegal. You can still attempt to target the Skrull (by declaring an attack) - it's just that it may not work, and you'd then need to choose a different target.

Same goes for Kingdom Come/Hypertime. You can declare a move action or a Charge, you may just have to abort halfway through.

Batman Ally is another matter entirely, because declaring this TA means that the ranged combat action could not have been declared in the first place.

[Nightwing-fan]

I may get blasted for this, but so what.

Wild cards are abusive enough now and this change is going to make them stronger/deadlier then a normal TA. Which should not happen. If WK/N was smart and had any good comic book sense. They would just eliminate all wild card TA's period, and give them a regular ability to use. Here's just a couple of examples that might work.

Give Doom TA members the ability to mastermind off damage to any other Doom TA character on the board.

Give all Legion TA members flight and the ability to carry up to 2 other characters.

[nbperp]

Wild cards are abusive enough now and this change is going to make them stronger/deadlier then a normal TA. Which should not happen. If WK/N was smart and had any good comic book sense.

As I pointed out above, this is simply a different reaction to a situation which has been dealt with before. I fail to see how this makes wild cards better.

Before BN Rules: You can declare something and I can change to make it illegal. You can react, but you can't do what you originally wanted.

Post BN Rules: You can declare something and I cannot change to make it illegal. You get to do what you originally wanted.

Moreso, with the new rules in place, I can do the following:
Action 1 - Attack your wild card with a close combat attack, you change to Mystics for feedback damage.

Action 2 - I outwit your wild cards invulnerability. You cannot change to Batman because it would make my action illegal.

Action 3 - I range attack your wild card. Again, you cannot change to Batman or it would make my action illegal.

In the old game, Action 2 and 3 would never have been able to happen. The wild card would have been "safe".

How is this "going to make them stronger/deadlier"?

[RavenProject]

(snerk) Another Skrull/wildcard thread? And I missed it?!?

Oh well, at least the orange block might mean people stop asking...

-J

[Nightwing-fan]

As I pointed out above, this is simply a different reaction to a situation which has been dealt with before. I fail to see how this makes wild cards better.

Before BN Rules: You can declare something and I can change to make it illegal. You can react, but you can't do what you originally wanted.

Post BN Rules: You can declare something and I cannot change to make it illegal. You get to do what you originally wanted.

Moreso, with the new rules in place, I can do the following:
Action 1 - Attack your wild card with a close combat attack, you change to Mystics for feedback damage.

Action 2 - I outwit your wild cards invulnerability. You cannot change to Batman because it would make my action illegal.

Action 3 - I range attack your wild card. Again, you cannot change to Batman or it would make my action illegal.

In the old game, Action 2 and 3 would never have been able to happen. The wild card would have been "safe".

How is this "going to make them stronger/deadlier"?

Wildcards shouldn't be allowed to become stronger then an Avenger, JLA, X-Men, etc. character. That may be the wrong wording, but take any character with one of those or any regular TA and have them battle a wildcard. There choosing Skrulls or Mystics or Batman TA just to name a few on defense. Ultimates or Superman TA on attack. A regular character wont be able to compete against that. WK/N is going to have the WC characters to become the figures of choice and they will become better then a regular character.

Granted WC dont have a Thor, Superman, Iron Man, Batman in there ranks . But they wont need them, they will be able to counter every move you make against them.

I just think WC TA needs to be limited more then what they are now or removed. Granted they cant copy Bats TA when range targeted which is good. But what gives them the right to be mystical this turn and uiltimates the next. Except for maybe Dr. Doom himself, when did the WC characters get those powers? When did the Legion all become mystics and then able to blast you at a range the next turn with Superman TA?

Part of WC is fine, but giving them the ability to use any TA, any time they decide is just wrong.

[RavenProject]

Wildcards shouldn't be allowed to become stronger then an Avenger, JLA, X-Men, etc. character.
Okay, we get that you dislike wildcards in general. However, none of your complaints are directly tied to the new ruling.

Norm's question was in response to your statement that the revised rules made Wildcards stronger. Could you please support that statement?

-J

[JRS4]

I don't really see what peoples problem is with this ruling of how W/C will be played.

It makes wild cards less powerful to help limit some of there capability.
I really think it was a nice trade off. They can't make actions illegal anymore but now they are able to copy Alt TA's again.

All around nice game balancing change for Wild Cards.

[Munchoboy]

Part of WC is fine, but giving them the ability to use any TA, any time they decide is just wrong.

In all fairness, the WC TA has been part of the game since its inception and Heroclix has survived just fine. I do not see how the TA is so game-breaking or "wrong" (as you put it).

I am interested in hearing why specifically you are concerned re" the WC TA.

Norm's question was in response to your statement that the revised rules made Wildcards stronger. Could you please support that statement?

Agreed, I would be interested in hearing the reasoning as well.

[Neverfate]

I don't really see what peoples problem is with this ruling of how W/C will be played.

It makes wild cards less powerful to help limit some of there capability.
I really think it was a nice trade off. They can't make actions illegal anymore but now they are able to copy Alt TA's again.

All around nice game balancing change for Wild Cards.

How can they copy alternate team abilities without the keyword that the alts will now be tied to?

[JRS4]

How can they copy alternate team abilities without the keyword that the alts will now be tied to?

It was talked about in an artical at heroclix.com found here (http://heroclix.com/blog/2010/04/15/new-rules-are-acomin/)

Alternate Team Abilities: Alternate Team Abilities are now considered a different thing from Feat cards. ATAs are a part of the Modern Age of game play, though there are some differences from when they were considered Feats. Mechanically, ATAs will no longer replace existing team abilities – they will be additional abilities that the qualifying characters can use. As we started with Hammer of Thor, ATAs will be keyword driven rather than based on team symbols. What’s more, we will be going back through all of the existing ATAs and over the course of the next few months, making them available through print-and-play with revised, keyword-driven, additive mechanics. All of this requires some slight changes in order to balance things out a bit. As you’d expect, these pre-existing ATAs will be modified so that they cost a little bit more than they did before. Another balance will be that a force can only have one ATA assigned to it. Finally, wild cards will be allowed to use these team abilities, just like they can use any other team ability on your force.

[WolvieFan9]

I would say that two other changes to Wild Cards made them stronger (the ability to give shared values, not just receive, and the ability to use ATAs again). This change about not making declared actions illegal helps balance out the other two changes, in my opinion.

[SLVRSR4]

How can they copy alternate team abilities without the keyword that the alts will now be tied to?

I could be wrong on this without the new rulebook in front of me, but
wildcards can copy team abilities no matter what their keywords are. Only the character assigned the ATA has to have the keyword prerequisite.

[Blaiser]

How can they copy alternate team abilities without the keyword that the alts will now be tied to?

Where in the wildcard team ability does it say that they need to have a keyword in common with the character they're copying from? It doesn't, they can copy any team ability unless it says otherwise. The ATAs (as they stand now) do not say they cannot be copied. Thus, they can be copied with the WC team ability as of the 12th of this month.

[nbperp]

Where in the wildcard team ability does it say that they need to have a keyword in common with the character they're copying from? It doesn't, they can copy any team ability unless it says otherwise. The ATAs (as they stand now) do not say they cannot be copied. Thus, they can be copied with the WC team ability as of the 12th of this month.

In fact, it would be silly for them to copy the ability if they had the keyword prerequisite....

Because if they had the keyword prerequisite...

they'd alread have the team ability from the ATA card. (All ATA cards apply to all characters with the keyword - you cannot pick and choose who gets the new TA and who does not)

[AndarPul]

From ATA rules discussion:
Mechanically, ATAs will no longer replace existing team abilities – they will be additional abilities that the qualifying characters can use.

Is there an example of this using what we already have/know? All of the ATA's I've seen say to use this (ATA) ability INSTEAD of the original TA.

[WolvieFan9]

From ATA rules discussion:
Mechanically, ATAs will no longer replace existing team abilities – they will be additional abilities that the qualifying characters can use.

Is there an example of this using what we already have/know? All of the ATA's I've seen say to use this (ATA) ability INSTEAD of the original TA.

No, I am pretty sure all the ATAs are replacement team abilities now. But when the BN rules take effect, OOTS Batman will be able to have his own TA and the JLI TA, which could make taking OOTS Batman down all the tougher.

[Munchoboy]

From ATA rules discussion:
Mechanically, ATAs will no longer replace existing team abilities – they will be additional abilities that the qualifying characters can use.

Is there an example of this using what we already have/know? All of the ATA's I've seen say to use this (ATA) ability INSTEAD of the original TA.

IIRC, the popular hypothesis is that all of the existing ATAs will most likely receive new wording and/or point values to accomodate the new rules regarding them.

[AndarPul]

No, I am pretty sure all the ATAs are replacement team abilities now. But when the BN rules take effect, OOTS Batman will be able to have his own TA and the JLI TA, which could make taking OOTS Batman down all the tougher.

How so?

Justice League International

All characters on your force w/ at least one of the prereq keywords are assigned this feat and have the following team ability instead of any other TA:
When a character that possesses this team ability would be dealt damage, you can instead choose to reduce damage dealt by 1 if you deal 1 unavoidable damage to a friendly character that possesses this team ability and is adjacent to the first character.

[AndarPul]

IIRC, the popular hypothesis is that all of the existing ATAs will most likely receive new wording and/or point values to accomodate the new rules regarding them.

Interesting. So until rewording of said feats, this change (which may be significant) is beyond discussion/evaluation?

[mr_obvious]

Action 2 - I outwit your wild cards invulnerability. You cannot change to Batman because it would make my action illegal.

Action 3 - I range attack your wild card. Again, you cannot change to Batman or it would make my action illegal.

In the old game, Action 2 and 3 would never have been able to happen. The wild card would have been "safe".



So can Batman TA no longer be copied? It sounds like you're saying it can't be copied at all, because it makes any ranged attacks on my character illegal. When would I have to declare Batman TA to give my character stealth, but not make their action illegal?

[AndarPul]

So can Batman TA no longer be copied? It sounds like you're saying it can't be copied at all, because it makes any ranged attacks on my character illegal. When would I have to declare Batman TA to give my character stealth, but not make their action illegal?

When your WC performs an action of its own, it can copy the Batman TA, e.g., when given a move action (intending to move into hindering) you'd copy the Batman TA to benefit from Stealth when you arrive in hindering terrain.

[JRS4]

So can Batman TA no longer be copied? It sounds like you're saying it can't be copied at all, because it makes any ranged attacks on my character illegal. When would I have to declare Batman TA to give my character stealth, but not make their action illegal?

No that is not the case. You would just need to declare the TA is copied with an action before the action targeting that character. Say another character on your team is targeted. Your wild card that is not targeted may change to batman TA at that time.

[RavenProject]

When would I have to declare Batman TA to give my character stealth, but not make their action illegal?
From page 16 of the new rules:

"A wild card may change the team ability it is using (or choose not to use a team ability) to any team ability possessed by a friendly character when an action is declared by any player but before the action begins."

"A wild card retains its most recently used team ability until it uses another team ability, chooses not to use a team ability, or until after the resolution of an action during which all characters whose team ability the wild card is using are defeated or removed from the battlefield."

You could declare that your wildcards are adopting the Batman TA during your own turn, or you could declare that your characters are adopting the Batman TA during one of your opponent's actions (even a free action!) so long as it would not render the action illegal.

Example: Your opponent is using Perplex to modify another member of his force. You could adopt the Batman TA when your opponent declares he's using Perplex. The TA would then be in effect when your opponent declares his next action, so he couldn't target your wildcards with a ranged attack.

-J

[Suttkus]

Wildcards shouldn't be allowed to become stronger then an Avenger, JLA, X-Men, etc. character.

They are stronger and always have been. If you have multiple team abilities on your force, any wildcard will be able to use any of them and, thus, better than any one of them.

Not all team abilities are created equally. Power Cosmic is a better team ability than Batman Ally or Mystics, both of which are relatively powerful, desirable team abilities. Meanwhile, Injustice League is a joke. I've been playing Heroclix since Cosmic Justice and I have never, NEVER seen Injustice League actually used. JLA/Avengers used to be good, but has slowly become less useful as the average piece cost rose and the point builds of the game did likewise.

We may not actually know how WK creates costs for these pieces, but I think it's generally recognized that Wildcard is an expensive team ability, with wildcard pieces generally being a little weaker than other figures in their price range, when you don't count team abilities. This is an ongoing source of frustration for me as I'm a huge Legion fan and that team being stuck with wildcard, and the lack of possibilities for giving them something to copy, drives me nuts. The ATA for Legion doesn't nearly make up for the expense of the wildcard ability on the piece that I can't use. (I'm deeply afraid that when they rework for print-and-play the old ATAs, they'll stick a cost on the Legion ATA and make the team even-more-screwed-than-it-currently-is. Maybe if they gave it a negative cost...)

There is no reason to expect all team abilities to be created equally. If WK was flatly assigning, so, ten points to the cost of any figure that has a team ability, then that would be the case, but it's pretty clear they are not and never have been.

[zero_cochrane]

I think it's generally recognized that Wildcard is an expensive team ability, with wildcard pieces generally being a little weaker than other figures in their price range, when you don't count team abilities. This is an ongoing source of frustration for me as I'm a huge Legion fan and that team being stuck with wildcard, and the lack of possibilities for giving them something to copy, drives me nuts.The Legion of Super-Heroes is a good example; without the wildcard, many of those figures are laughably weak when compared to others in their point range. Not every wildcard is as capable as Dr. Doom.

I've been playing Heroclix since Cosmic Justice and I have never, NEVER seen Injustice League actually used.Long time lurker? :classic: Welcome to HCR.

[Suttkus]

The Legion of Super-Heroes is a good example; without the wildcard, many of those figures are laughably weak when compared to others in their point range. Not every wildcard is as capable as Dr. Doom.

In my last tournament, though, I played an undefeated Legion team with the ATA. The ironic thing here is, I never used the ATA once during the tournament either. Nobody took Vet Origins M'onel out the entire time. This means that I might as well have left them as wildcards with nothing to copy. This is the first time in years of trying that I've ever had a LSH team do well at a tournament.

Long time lurker? :classic: Welcome to HCR.

Sort of. I tried signing up for HCRealms many, many years ago, about the same time I got started judging... I don't remember when that was, but I still have my complete set of City of Heroes/Villains pieces they gave out for Judge support, so that should give you some hint. But when I tried to sign in and do the "we'll send you an email, click the link or give us the code or whatever" rigmarole, something went off and the effort crashed. Since then, whenever I tried to sign up again, the machine told me I couldn't because my email address was already a member. But when I tried to use my "already a member" account, it told me I couldn't because I hadn't set a password or something. I sent several emails, but never got any response, and eventually gave up, except to try again every six months or so. I gave that up eventually as well.

When I heard that the rules arbitrator was posting here, I tried again, and it let me in with no problem. *shrug* But you can't get rid of me now!

I never really lurked here. Reading conversations I can't participate in? GAAAA! Couldn't you just beat me up or something less painful?

[zero_cochrane]

It does seem a bit random occasionally - some people join with zero problems, other people can never get it to work and take out their rage on Facebook.