When specifically do you declare use of B/C/F?

[spike1138]

This has been an ongoing (and completely unnecessary) argument at my venue for about a month now.

If a character is showing B/C/F, can the player roll the attack first, see if it hits, THEN announce that they're using B/C/F?

Or, should the player announce that they're using B/C/F prior to making the attack roll?

I'm apparently in the minority and think that you need to be completely clear prior to making the roll.

Heck, I'll quote the power in question:

When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

I think the part I bolded is what's getting folks confused. However, this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270983) is what I've referenced in the past.

Here's what harpua and nbperp said in that thread:

You have to do it before your roll, ie when you declare the action.

Before you roll. IN fact, you should be announcing as much of the action as possible before any roll.

Despite the RA and a Deputy backing up my ruling, one player at my venue still isn't convinced and I'm getting really tired of the nonsense. :tired:

Am I missing something here? Do I need Jake Theis, Justin Ziran, or Jordan Weisman to chime in to get folks to stop arguing the issue?

[ShadowMark]

I have always played it when you declare the attack, you declare the roll.

So, one would say, I will attack your Sabretooth with Wolverine and use B/C/F. Not, I will attack Sabretooth with Wolverine....Cool I hit, I will use B/C/F.

Like your nbperp and harpua quotes, I declare as much as possible when attacking

[normalview]

If the RA said it (and, by the way, he's correct as if there was any doubt), then I don't know what else would work.

Bottom line, you can't cancel a power mid-action. If you know you don't want to use BCF, you need to cancel it prior to starting the action.

[Harpua]

This has been an ongoing (and completely unnecessary) argument at my venue for about a month now.

If a character is showing B/C/F, can the player roll the attack first, see if it hits, THEN announce that they're using B/C/F?

Or, should the player announce that they're using B/C/F prior to making the attack roll?

I'm apparently in the minority and think that you need to be completely clear prior to making the roll.

Heck, I'll quote the power in question:



I think the part I bolded is what's getting folks confused. However, this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=270983) is what I've referenced in the past.

Here's what harpua and nbperp said in that thread:





Despite the RA and a Deputy backing up my ruling, one player at my venue still isn't convinced and I'm getting really tired of the nonsense. :tired:

Am I missing something here? Do I need Jake Theis, Justin Ziran, or Jordan Weisman to chime in to get folks to stop arguing the issue?

Well, there's no point in my answering again.

I will add what I highlight here.

When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

The action is given when the action is declared.

Also, there's this (FF, page 15):
Some powers require that a character be given an action in order to
activate, or activate when you give a character a specific type of action.
To use one of these powers, the player must declare that the character is
being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the
character will activate a power.

[hclixinarcadia]

I would print out those rulings and show them. Or email them the link.

It would be good to have a judge there.

How does one become a judge? Is there some kind of certification like they do in Chess?

[normalview]

How does one become a judge? Is there some kind of certification like they do in Chess?

Not any more.

Used to be, WK had a test and an application process (plus you needed to be sponsored by a venue or an existing judge). While the system was far from perfect, it was a quality control of sorts.


The new WK has yet to start any official envoy program. Chances are, venues are still using their old judges (for example, I never stopped running events... I just used my own stuff for prizes). But there is nothing that says that the need to do so or even that these judges (new or old) are current on the rules.

[spike1138]

I would print out those rulings and show them. Or email them the link.

It would be good to have a judge there.

How does one become a judge? Is there some kind of certification like they do in Chess?

Well, here's the thing: I've been the judge at this particular venue for the past two years. (I was in the middle of applying for Level 2 status when Topps put WizKids on the bench.)

I think some folks just aren't satisfied with what they hear unless it benefits them.

[normalview]

I think some folks just aren't satisfied with what they hear unless it benefits them.

And we have a winner ;)



Seriously, though, with issues like this there comes a time when a Judge you just need to put your foot down and say something to the effect of, "Look guys, this is the way it is. If you can find proof to the contrary, great, we'll revist the issue. But until such a time, play or leave: your choice."

[hclixinarcadia]

Well, here's the thing: I've been the judge at this particular venue for the past two years. (I was in the middle of applying for Level 2 status when Topps put WizKids on the bench.)

I think some folks just aren't satisfied with what they hear unless it benefits them.

well damn, they need to respect you as the judge. As nbperp said in one post, your call stands even if it is incorrect.

Tell them to "be a MENSCH for once" that's sure to get them to shut up and thinking... even if it's "what's a Mensch?"

It's hard enough to be a judge and to have to deal with complaints...

Maybe judges can give technical fouls... penalize the player a click of damage for arguing too much... you know warn them first and if they continue to argue... give 'em a "T"

[hclixinarcadia]

ok, here's the exact quote, lol:

Go ahead and use this post. I'm NBPerp. I'm the RA.

Buddy - the judge running the event is right. Even if he's completely wrong, you are more wrong for arguing. Now shut up and play.

That work for everyone?

[IceHot]

Blades is not an action.
But it automatically triggers when you declare a combat action, unless you specifically turn it off.

Most powers can only be activated by specifically declaring the action you are giving and for what effect.

It always best to fully declare your intent. However, if you say I am attacking with Wolverine. What you are actually saying is I will give Wolverine a Close Combat Action to make an attack (as there is no other way Wolverine can Attack). When you give Wolverine a Close Combat Action he will use his Blades whether you specified it or not. The only way for him to not use his blades if for him to specifically turn them off BEFORE he declares his Close Combat Action.

This is PRECISELY what is meant by the rule on page 15:

...all powers (such as those activated by a specific type of action or attack) are assumed to be in effect during an action unless you cancel it at the beginning of that action. When a power is canceled, it is canceled
until the end of that turn and resumes effect at the beginning of the next
player’s turn.


This rule should NOT be misinterpretted to assume that a power that requires specific activation is being used when it was not activated.

For instance if Iron Man declares a Running Shot Action which result in a Ranged Combat Action he does NOT have to use EE during the Ranged Combat Action even if EE is still turned on. In Order for Iron Man to use EE he must specifically state that he will use the Ranged Combat Action to activate EE. If he does not then he does not use EE.

This is PRECISELY what is meant by the following rule on page 15:

Some powers require that a character be GIVEN an action in order to activate, or activate when you GIVE a character a specific type of action. To use one of these powers, the player must declare that the character is being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the character will activate a power.


The key word here is is GIVE....If an ACTION says GIVE you need to specifically declare it to make it Happen.

If a power says WHEN then it will happen WHEN that conditions occurs wether you declared it or not unless you specifically turned it off BEFORE you declared the ACTION.

And finally, the all important MAY. MAY is the trigger that lets you know you have option of doing something different in the middle of an ACTION as dictated by the power.

That is how the game is supposed to be played:

You dont try to rope somebody into an EE attack against your Invuln guy because he didnt turn off EE.....He doesnt have to
And you dont try to rope somebody into NOT using Blades with his 1 :g-starburst: against your Invuln guy because he didnt say Blades....He doesnt have to


Thats why those rules are written they way they were written.

Now as the judge you can interpret that any way you want, but I have been around here long enough to know thats how the game is supposed to work.

Its not about trying to Rules-Lawyer trick your opponent into doing something he had no intention of doing.

If you are at all unclear, its real simple just ask what ACTION is being GIVEN, for WHAT effect is it being GIVEN, and what powers are Going to be used and not going to be used?

[thjimmy]

Spike, you are right.

[W.I.T]

I'd say that you have to not use it if you aren't planning on doing so IE turn it off. In our home games we always decide after we've hit, so we are pretty lax about it, but in a tournament setting, thems the rules.

[hclixinarcadia]

does BCF work with Exploit Weakness then? I always thought it didn't because I thought BCF gave the character a close combat action but now looking at the wording:

EXPLOIT WEAKNESS Give this character a close combat action. Damage
from the attack is penetrating damage.

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character is given a close combat action,
roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

[W.I.T]

does BCF work with Exploit Weakness then? I always thought it didn't because I thought BCF gave the character a close combat action but now looking at the wording:

EXPLOIT WEAKNESS Give this character a close combat action. Damage
from the attack is penetrating damage.

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS When this character is given a close combat action,
roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

Yes it does.

[hclixinarcadia]

That's it, I'm using Gamora... charge/ew/blades... 11AV.

[BigDaddyHub]

That's it, I'm using Gamora... charge/ew/blades... 11AV.

Welcome to the Gamora party, hclixinarcadia. There's a superman prime out there that is still crying over her little 73 point frame stabbing him for 6 straight. I loved that fight.

[IceHot]

Which is why she is called....
"The Most Dangerous Woman in the Universe"

[Azrael0626]

Which is why she is called....
"The Most Dangerous Woman in the Universe"

Unless she is fighting Thanos and breaks her blade, so now when you use Gamora you can't use B/C/F. :laugh:

[Petros76]

I've one shot killed many figures with her. Position her right, charge in, boxcars and 6 on blades with ew into the wall or off the building/map will take many figures right out of the running.

[W.I.T]

That's it, I'm using Gamora... charge/ew/blades... 11AV.

Welcome to the Gamora party, hclixinarcadia. There's a superman prime out there that is still crying over her little 73 point frame stabbing him for 6 straight. I loved that fight.

Which is why she is called....
"The Most Dangerous Woman in the Universe"

Unless she is fighting Thanos and breaks her blade, so now when you use Gamora you can't use B/C/F. :laugh:

I've one shot killed many figures with her. Position her right, charge in, boxcars and 6 on blades with ew into the wall or off the building/map will take many figures right out of the running.

I played her in a 'no range' 2,000 point game one time, and she easily took out 4-5x her own point total in figures.

First attack she made was against V Super Woman, Charge/Blades/EW for 6, next turn Super Woman was KOd. 2 Turns later, she hit Starter Thing for 5, next turn, again for 4 = KOd Thing. That was 241 points that she killed off in the first half an hour or so. She rampaged around the board, and then she Critical Missed....onto that lovely 18 :d-normal: with Combat Reflexes. In a 'no range' game, that was brutal.

[hclixinarcadia]

I played her in a 'no range' 2,000 point game one time, and she easily took out 4-5x her own point total in figures.

First attack she made was against V Super Woman, Charge/Blades/EW for 6, next turn Super Woman was KOd. 2 Turns later, she hit Starter Thing for 5, next turn, again for 4 = KOd Thing. That was 241 points that she killed off in the first half an hour or so. She rampaged around the board, and then she Critical Missed....onto that lovely 18 :d-normal: with Combat Reflexes. In a 'no range' game, that was brutal.

lol, Gamora for MVP!

and I forgot to mention that she has Willpower on the first click.... man oh man.

[noregretz]

Its not about trying to Rules-Lawyer trick your opponent into doing something he had no intention of doing.

If you are at all unclear, its real simple just ask what ACTION is being GIVEN, for WHAT effect is it being GIVEN, and what powers are Going to be used and not going to be used?

I tend to agree IceHot. I just consider it good sportsmanship to ask my opponent, before they make their attack roll, "Is this a blades/claws (or RCE, CCE...whatever) attack?"

Now if they do something really silly, like make the move action of a Charge...THEN try to Perplex a combat ability: Sorry! Too late Sparky!

And although I didn't quote it, I fully agree that as the attacker, you should declare all powers being used.

[hclixinarcadia]

And although I didn't quote it, I fully agree that as the attacker, you should declare all powers being used.

Yup, I even go as far as state the dice roll needed and damage value just to be sure everyone is clear.

I'll say something like "rolling for a 6 to do 4 damage" and wait for my opponent to nod in agreement.

[noregretz]

Yup, I even go as far as state the dice roll needed and damage value just to be sure everyone is clear.

I'll say something like "rolling for a 6 to do 4 damage" and wait for my opponent to nod in agreement.

I don't go that far, but I've played against a friend that DOES, and I have to say that it does prevent many an argument. Maybe I'll start doing it that way! :cool:

[Holy Knight]

A lot of players probably think: "Well, it doesn't matter unless I hit in the first place, so I'll make the attack roll and then either declare blades or not", which I'd wager is why this comes up. In a practical sense, does it affect anything if they were allowed to declare it then, instead of before the attack roll? That is, would getting to choose afterward be abuseable in some way?

[hclixinarcadia]

A lot of players probably think: "Well, it doesn't matter unless I hit in the first place, so I'll make the attack roll and then either declare blades or not", which I'd wager is why this comes up. In a practical sense, does it affect anything if they were allowed to declare it then, instead of before the attack roll? That is, would getting to choose afterward be abuseable in some way?

according to the wording for bcf, it happens automatically when the attack hits. you only need to declare it if you're not using it.

but it's just good practice to declare everything before the attack roll.

[BlueAndorian]

That's it, I'm using Gamora... charge/ew/blades... 11AV.

I hope this doesn't come out as too personal, but "DUH!"

[hclixinarcadia]

I hope this doesn't come out as too personal, but "DUH!"

lol, no offense taken.

[Holy Knight]

according to the wording for bcf, it happens automatically when the attack hits. you only need to declare it if you're not using it.

but it's just good practice to declare everything before the attack roll.

I know, I'm just wondering if it would make any difference as far as the outcome of the game if you could declare it upon hitting.

[hclixinarcadia]

Blades is not an action.
But it automatically triggers when you declare a combat action, unless you specifically turn it off.

Most powers can only be activated by specifically declaring the action you are giving and for what effect.

It always best to fully declare your intent. However, if you say I am attacking with Wolverine. What you are actually saying is I will give Wolverine a Close Combat Action to make an attack (as there is no other way Wolverine can Attack). When you give Wolverine a Close Combat Action he will use his Blades whether you specified it or not. The only way for him to not use his blades if for him to specifically turn them off BEFORE he declares his Close Combat Action.

This is PRECISELY what is meant by the rule on page 15:


This rule should NOT be misinterpretted to assume that a power that requires specific activation is being used when it was not activated.

For instance if Iron Man declares a Running Shot Action which result in a Ranged Combat Action he does NOT have to use EE during the Ranged Combat Action even if EE is still turned on. In Order for Iron Man to use EE he must specifically state that he will use the Ranged Combat Action to activate EE. If he does not then he does not use EE.

This is PRECISELY what is meant by the following rule on page 15:


The key word here is is GIVE....If an ACTION says GIVE you need to specifically declare it to make it Happen.

If a power says WHEN then it will happen WHEN that conditions occurs wether you declared it or not unless you specifically turned it off BEFORE you declared the ACTION.

And finally, the all important MAY. MAY is the trigger that lets you know you have option of doing something different in the middle of an ACTION as dictated by the power.

That is how the game is supposed to be played:

You dont try to rope somebody into an EE attack against your Invuln guy because he didnt turn off EE.....He doesnt have to
And you dont try to rope somebody into NOT using Blades with his 1 :g-starburst: against your Invuln guy because he didnt say Blades....He doesnt have to


Thats why those rules are written they way they were written.

Now as the judge you can interpret that any way you want, but I have been around here long enough to know thats how the game is supposed to work.

Its not about trying to Rules-Lawyer trick your opponent into doing something he had no intention of doing.

If you are at all unclear, its real simple just ask what ACTION is being GIVEN, for WHAT effect is it being GIVEN, and what powers are Going to be used and not going to be used?

ok, so what Ice Hot says makes a whole lot of sense.

But, Harpua and Nbperp themselves said it has to be declared at the beginning of the action. So what is it really?

Should BCF be errata'd from "When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll..." to "Give this character is a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll..."

[hclixinarcadia]

I know, I'm just wondering if it would make any difference as far as the outcome of the game if you could declare it upon hitting.

yes it does because if you're only doing 2 natural damage against someone with invulnerability, then you do need to use BCF.

[Holy Knight]

yes it does because if you're only doing 2 natural damage against someone with invulnerability, then you do need to use BCF.
Which would only matter if you rolled a critical hit, but thanks, that's what I was looking for.

[Harpua]

A lot of players probably think: "Well, it doesn't matter unless I hit in the first place, so I'll make the attack roll and then either declare blades or not", which I'd wager is why this comes up. In a practical sense, does it affect anything if they were allowed to declare it then, instead of before the attack roll? That is, would getting to choose afterward be abuseable in some way?

Yes it is.

One example is for something like critical hits and damage reducers. My guy has 2 printed damage and BCF. I roll a critical hit against your Invulnerable guy. I might declare that I'm not going to roll the BCF in order to not risk getting that 1 and dealing no damage.

The big one I see people never do is declare the square from which a multi-based figure is attacking, especially in close combat. I was being attacked by Bats/Cats this evening. Before the attack, I asked which half was attacking. My opponent asked why. I said in case of knock back. He picked a square...and rolled a hit, with doubles. Now, since he picked first, there was no dispute. I HAVE seen people try and pull some crazy stuff after seeing that a particular KB path would be good from some bizarre angle.

It was something along these lines.
. . . . . .
. B . . . .
. . . . . .
. . . O . .
. . . 1 . .
. . . . 2 .
. . . . . .
Devil Dino (1,2) hits O in close combat, rolling doubles. No square was declared before, but after realizing that making the attack from 2 could send the guy into a Barrier the guy tried to say that, of course, the attack was coming from that half. As it hadn't been declared before the action, it went to a roll off.

[Harpua]

RE my post above, totally missed page 3.

ok, so what Ice Hot says makes a whole lot of sense.

But, Harpua and Nbperp themselves said it has to be declared at the beginning of the action. So what is it really?

I'm not sure how it could be made any more clear.

FF, page 15:
"Some powers require that a character be given an action in order to activate, or activate when you give a character a specific type of action. To use one of these powers, the player must declare that the character is being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the character will activate a power."

BN, page 15:
"Some powers require that a character be given an action in order to activate, or activate only when you give a character a specific type of action. To use one of these powers, the player must declare that the character is being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the character will activate a power."

BCF is a power which activates when you give a close combat action. Therefore, to use it, "the player must declare that the character is being given an action to activate the power or that the action given to the character will activate a power."

That's straight out of both the old and new rules.
Should BCF be errata'd from "When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll..." to "Give this character is a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll..."
People would hate you for this. No more Flurry or Exploit with BCF?!?!?

[Phoenix_Icewing]

People would hate you for this. No more Flurry or Exploit with BCF?!?!?

funny enough, ive never seen anyone deal more than 2 points of damage that way >< lucky for me! im always the receiving end!!!!

[hclixinarcadia]

People would hate you for this. No more Flurry or Exploit with BCF?!?!?

and Gamora wouldn't be the same... no erratas on BCF pls.

[DKJedi]

Does no one play this game as friendly anymore?

Does everyone seriously think that every time someone forgets to turn off blades when they roll the dice or a similar power that they are trying to cheat the system?

I agree that the rules are the rules but common sense and fair play has to take over sometimes as well.

I played a game tonight and both my opponent and I made mistakes. He forgot to roll super senses after I hit him so I pointed that out to him before he took the clicks. Then later in the game, I perplexed down the defense of a figure and did a few other moves before attacking that figure. I missed by 1 on the die roll but had forgot that I had perplexed the defense down. My opponent pointed out to me that I had forgot that and that I had hit his figure. After we finished playing (and he doesn't get to play much because of work), he commented that he was glad that we were able to play and not be uber rules lawyers during the game.

What I am saying is that I would point out the rule in question the first time it happens but let them do what they truly intended to do. If they continue to do it wrong, then I would hold them to it.

[Rahe Stone]

I repped that. Fun is all that matters, screw the rules, I have money!

[TerminusV2.0]

Yup, I even go as far as state the dice roll needed and damage value just to be sure everyone is clear.

I'll say something like "rolling for a 6 to do 4 damage" and wait for my opponent to nod in agreement.

I've been in the habit of doing that for years now, just so EVERYONE AGREES on exactly what's going on BEFORE I roll those dice. I'd suggest others do the same, it saves you from a lot of hassles.

In fact, I do it so much it took me a moment to realize not everyone else does.

[Harpua]

I agree that the rules are the rules but common sense and fair play has to take over sometimes as well.
QFT

filler

[The Decepticons]

I know, I'm just wondering if it would make any difference as far as the outcome of the game if you could declare it upon hitting.

i havnt been playing in depth that long, though ive more experience playing mageknight from years ago. but is there any pieces that have an SP which allows them to use b/c/f an another attack power on the same click?

technicly after you roll to see if your going to hit, intending to use one power, than seeing that he has a damage reducer on the dial showing, you could than call b/c/f in hopes to hit a high dice roll instead.

b/c/f is an attack. so befor you do anything involving an attack action you should declare it. not in the middle of the action when you roll to see if you hit, and than state "oh... im using b/c/f by the way..."

you wouldnt roll for TK and than sit there and state to your opponent, ok... now what option should i use. would you?

[hclixinarcadia]

Does no one play this game as friendly anymore?

Does everyone seriously think that every time someone forgets to turn off blades when they roll the dice or a similar power that they are trying to cheat the system?

I agree that the rules are the rules but common sense and fair play has to take over sometimes as well.



Last Wednesday, we had a four player tournament for prizes. My opponent had alias on each of his characters but forgot to call it and actually took damage before I reminded him about it.

He asked if I would let him do that and I said sure. Well he made the roll and was back up to full strength. I ended up losing and he ended up winning the tournament.

In the end, he donated his winnings to the three of us that didn't win because he said he already had all the pieces he needed.

We all came out as winners.

[Holy Knight]

The big one I see people never do is declare the square from which a multi-based figure is attacking, especially in close combat. I was being attacked by Bats/Cats this evening. Before the attack, I asked which half was attacking. My opponent asked why. I said in case of knock back. He picked a square...and rolled a hit, with doubles. Now, since he picked first, there was no dispute. I HAVE seen people try and pull some crazy stuff after seeing that a particular KB path would be good from some bizarre angle.

It was something along these lines.
. . . . . .
. B . . . .
. . . . . .
. . . O . .
. . . 1 . .
. . . . 2 .
. . . . . .
Devil Dino (1,2) hits O in close combat, rolling doubles. No square was declared before, but after realizing that making the attack from 2 could send the guy into a Barrier the guy tried to say that, of course, the attack was coming from that half. As it hadn't been declared before the action, it went to a roll off.
Wait, in that example, could the attack have been made from square 2 anyway? I would think that since only square 1 is adjacent to "O", the attack would have to come from there.

[Harpua]

Wait, in that example, could the attack have been made from square 2 anyway? I would think that since only square 1 is adjacent to "O", the attack would have to come from there.

DD&MB is a giant figure.

Giants can attack a figure with close combat from two squares away.

The attack has to come from one of the halves squares of the multi-based figure, but it doesn't matter which one, as long as the attack from that part of the base is legal.

In this case, DD&MB could attack from 1, the part touching the figure, or from 2, the part not touching the figure, because either one is a legal attack.

[Holy Knight]

DD&MB is a giant figure.

Giants can attack a figure with close combat from two squares away.

The attack has to come from one of the halves squares of the multi-based figure, but it doesn't matter which one, as long as the attack from that part of the base is legal.

In this case, DD&MB could attack from 1, the part touching the figure, or from 2, the part not touching the figure, because either one is a legal attack.

Ah, right. But just to clarify, you couldn't attack from square 2 with a non-giant duo-based figure, correct?

[vlad3theimpaler]

The big one I see people never do is declare the square from which a multi-based figure is attacking, especially in close combat. I was being attacked by Bats/Cats this evening. Before the attack, I asked which half was attacking. My opponent asked why. I said in case of knock back. He picked a square...and rolled a hit, with doubles. Now, since he picked first, there was no dispute. I HAVE seen people try and pull some crazy stuff after seeing that a particular KB path would be good from some bizarre angle.


I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I actually had a question regarding that from last night's game. Do both attacks from a double based duo character have to come from the same square? As I remember it, Greg declared a duo attack, you asked which square he was attacking from, and he specified the Batman square. He then missed that attack and rolled for the second attack, scoring a hit with knockback. Could he have declared between the two attacks that the second attack was coming from the Catwoman square of the base instead for the second attack?

[Harpua]

Ah, right. But just to clarify, you couldn't attack from square 2 with a non-giant duo-based figure, correct?

Correct, but if there is a choice, the designation should be made ahead of time.


For example.


. . . . . .
. B . D . .
. . . . . .
. . . O . .
. . . G M .
. . . . . .

Before the attack is declared, it should be stated which half of Goodness and Mercy is attacking. That way if there is knock back you know if you send the guy int the Blocking terrain or into the loving arms of Darkseid.

[Holy Knight]

Correct, but if there is a choice, the designation should be made ahead of time.


For example.


. . . . . .
. B . D . .
. . . . . .
. . . O . .
. . . G M .
. . . . . .

Before the attack is declared, it should be stated which half of Goodness and Mercy is attacking. That way if there is knock back you know if you send the guy int the Blocking terrain or into the loving arms of Darkseid.

Great, thanks. Also, rep for "The loving arms of Darkseid". :p

[Harpua]

I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I actually had a question regarding that from last night's game. Do both attacks from a double based duo character have to come from the same square? As I remember it, Greg declared a duo attack, you asked which square he was attacking from, and he specified the Batman square. He then missed that attack and rolled for the second attack, scoring a hit with knockback. Could he have declared between the two attacks that the second attack was coming from the Catwoman square of the base instead for the second attack?

Yes, he could have switched.

I suppose I should have asked again which half was attacking, but figured that it would be the same.


But to answer the question again, the attacks could be made from different halves.

[ThwartHog]

According to the BNPAC you can declare a CC action to use BFC, and after a successful roll, you still have the choice to make the BFC roll, or not. Once you make that roll, that is the point of no turning back and you have to commit to using the replacement value.

The key is in the change in wording from the FFPAC to the BNPAC. The BNPAC uses the phrasing "you may roll a d6". The FFPAC says to just "roll a d6". This change gives you the option to decide to roll or not after a successful hit.


BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS from FF PAC.
When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS from BN PAC
When this character is given a close combat action, you may roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value, then that damage value is locked.



Also, the 04/25 PG has not been changed to match the new BNPAC and uses the exact phrasing as the FFPAC.

[Harpua]

According to the BNPAC you can declare a CC action to use BFC, and after a successful roll, you still have the choice to make the BFC roll, or not. Once you make that roll, that is the point of no turning back and you have to commit to using the replacement value.

The key is in the change in wording from the FFPAC to the BNPAC. The BNPAC uses the phrasing "you may roll a d6". The FFPAC says to just "roll a d6". This change gives you the option to decide to roll or not after a successful hit.


BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS from FF PAC.
When this character is given a close combat action, roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS from BN PAC
When this character is given a close combat action, you may roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value, then that damage value is locked.

It might or it might not mean that. It still falls within the "When the character is given..." sentence which also plays into the timing.


Also, the 04/25 PG has not been changed to match the new BNPAC and uses the exact phrasing as the FFPAC.
Of course it hasn't. The BN hasn't been released yet. The FF rules are still the current rules. (Technically, those BN rules don't even take effect until two weeks after release.)

[Phoenix_Icewing]

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS from BN PAC
[I]When this character is given a close combat action, you may roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value, then that damage value is locked.


Well, there's a change...

So, with BN, you could declare B/C/F WHEN the action is given, but then choose NOT to roll the dice.

From reading both wordings, the "When this character is given" defines it pretty well...

But that BN change seems pretty nice, and stops any confusion. just consider it always declared, but choose after you HIT to decide to roll or not.

[ThwartHog]

It might or it might not mean that. It still falls within the "When the character is given..." sentence which also plays into the timing.

It's worded as I described it. You declare a close combat attack to use BCF. After a successful hit, you may (or may not) roll a d6. You decide to roll the d6 after a successful hit. Of course, this doesn't go into effect until the Blackest Night starter set is released.



Of course it hasn't. The BN hasn't been released yet. The FF rules are still the current rules. (Technically, those BN rules don't even take effect until two weeks after release.)

I realize that the set hasn't been released yet and therefore the changes aren't in effect yet, but where is it stated that the changes have a 2 week waiting period after the release?

[Harpua]

It's worded as I described it. You declare a close combat attack to use BCF. After a successful hit, you may (or may not) roll a d6. You decide to roll the d6 after a successful hit. Of course, this doesn't go into effect until the Blackest Night starter set is released.
It says "When this character is given a close combat action, you may roll a d6 after making a successful attack roll."

Yes this can be read the way you are stating, but it can also be read that the choice offered by the "may" is made "When this character is given a close combat action" which is before the attack roll.

I realize that the set hasn't been released yet and therefore the changes aren't in effect yet, but where is it stated that the changes have a 2 week waiting period after the release?
It's from the older approved play documents. Even under the old system though, this wasn't much recognized once the Avengers/LoSH events started.