But a judge on HCR said...

[Funky Jett]

Since Chapeau's last update of the FAQs, I have gone to two tournaments and quoted rulings from HCR Moderators here that just didn't make it into the FAQs this time. Most of our players are judges too, and they pretty much laughed at me stating that they either have never heard of that ruling or that it's not official yet.

Now, I realize it's not official until it makes it into the rules or FAQs, but I like to keep up on what has been ruled on and what SHOULD be in the next FAQs.

Is there a way HCR can create a "New Rulings" forum and anchor a thread to the top that has the upcoming rulings? Another option would be to add it to this forum, but you would have to add it to the DC forum too. By making it a separate forum, it would not be affiliated to Marvel, DC, or Indy for that matter.

The players can still ask their questions where they want, but once Chapeau has ruled on it and the Moderators let us know, then the Mods could add it to the anchored thread.

Just a thought from someone who is tired of getting laughed at and tired of getting jobbed by rulings I know for a fact are wrong.

[Earnan]

What were the specific rulings? I'm just curious :)

Maybe this is just me, but I don't think that use Judges 'rule' on these boards very often. What we do is explain how the rules work.

The thing is, just because it isn't in the FAQ doesn't mean it even needs to be. There are a lot of supposedly difficult questions that can be answered by reading related rules and figuring out how it would work in a particular case.

I rarely see a 'ruling' that is something entirely new to me. Though, I did get one of them today, thank you MC/SHIELD Crit hit wierdness... :)

If your Judges are any good, you should be able to explain to them by showing examples from the Rulebooks and FAQs to why you are correct, and the SHOULD correct themselves. Of course, they SHOULD be on at least the WK Judges board every couple days to look for rulings anyway...

I give up. I hate everyone. :)

WarlordEarnan

[thjimmy]

Funky Jett made a very good and useful suggestion.

Although I cannot give a specific example right now, the same thing has happened to me. I call it a "Tuesday night ruling." W

I will site a recent ruling/clarification that the other players (mostly judes also) have not seen. Since I cannot get immediate support, the ruling is overturned Tuesday when we play. Then I go home and find the support I needed during the game.

A forum specifically dedicted to these soon-to-be-official rulings would be a great help to the game.

[Funky Jett]

The one I remember specifically was concerning Sentinel/Sinestro when he was in the starting position. I had been screwed in a previous tournament when my opponent had his Sentinel figure in his starting position and used Controller to MC my figures to go to him. He used his Sentinel to capture then immediately release for double points. This is what the judge ruled he could do. I told him last week that this was wrong. We argued a bit, then another judge said I was wrong and wanted to know where I heard it took two moves. I said HCR. He literally rolled his eyes and looked at the other guy (who was a judge) and said, "HCR... Look it up after the tourney on the REAL site." I was immediately disbelieved because I said I read it on HCR. It didn't matter that HeroComplex had directly quoted Chapeau and reposted it here. I just said HCR and no one listened. I will say this though... the judge I was discussing it with, looked it up in the rules. Clearly it states that capturing is an attack action and releasing is a movement action, which means you have to wait a turn before you can release and even then you are pushing your Sentinel.

There are a couple other ones I thought of, one concerning EBT, and another concerning LoF, neither of which I will not go into here since this is already too long.

On your comment that you "rarely see a 'ruling' that is something entirely new to me." There are several times Xanth, et al, say something like, "I could be wrong. I will ask Chapeau (or on the Judges forum) to make sure." Even they miss things. Our judges miss things all the times. I miss things all the time. That is why I like to have a forum here for the rulings. So I can find them in one central place. And once they make it in the FAQs, they can be deleted.

[Earnan]

It's semantics, really.

What I consider a clarification, you consider a ruling. Meaybe cuz I'm a Judge and stuff... :)

The Judge should have overturned his own ruling after reading the rules for Sinestro, he was clearly wrong. EBT is confusing as all get out, and I usually just threaten to stab my players when they bring THAT up :) (They know I'm kidding... I think... :) )

A lot of times, we Judges ask Chapeau to make sure we are interpreting the rules correctly, which is why I consider it a clarification as opposed to a ruling.

Rulings do happen though.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, in fact we just added what you are talking about to the WK Forums Judges board... I'm gonna go over there and suggest putting it up on the WK Rules and HCRealms Rules boards as well.

Hope this helps, I'm not trying to be a pain, I was really trying to be supportive. I swear :) Please don't take my (hopefully) goodnaturedness as apathy. I do care, even though I hate you all. :)

WarlordEarnan

[Funky Jett]

Those semantics cost me a tourney victory. But thanks for your support (even if it is backhanded ;) )!

[Earnan]

Dude! I said that you were right, and that the Judge messed up! He looked right at the rules and ruled contrary to the rules!

And after I told you you could shortboard... sheesh... fickle audience... :)

I brought it up on the WK Judges board for Chapeau and HeroComplex/webhead8457984674389 orwhatever his number is :) to look at for consideration to add to their respective sites.

Hope this helps-
WarlordEarnan

[daredevil11]

Originally posted by Funky Jett
Since Chapeau's last update of the FAQs, I have gone to two tournaments and quoted rulings from HCR Moderators here that just didn't make it into the FAQs this time. Most of our players are judges too, and they pretty much laughed at me stating that they either have never heard of that ruling or that it's not official yet.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your suggestion concerning soon to be made rulings. Forgetting the specifics of your game, rulings are only official when posted to the FAQ. To try and start something else is to open a can of worms where everyone will be checking the posting boards every night to see how to play.

My one and only PBM game ended at a standstill over a rule that was not posted to the FAQ, even though that's what we agreed to play by, but was ruled on by several judges, although not official. This lead to endless hours of board surfing and discussion and a dead game.

Things are fine the way they are. Let things be thought through once, twice . . . even three times before becoming "official" - if we get into a "soon to be official" situation, the rules will become liquified and frustrating.

I think you are correct in that a lot of rulings can be seen coming from a mile away before they hit the FAQ, but it is also true that some rulings have disappeared before being added to the official clarrifications.

Lastly, in all situations where there are judges there are good ones and bad ones, that's just the nature of things. You'll never find 5 umpires that will call the exact same strike zone. You just have to relax and go with the judges you have, the alternative is to higher a 24 hour internet available staff to answer rules questions and have all participants report to the game room with a laptop.

[Funky Jett]

Where to start... where to start... hmmm... ok, I have it!

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your suggestion concerning soon to be made rulings. Forgetting the specifics of your game, rulings are only official when posted to the FAQ.

First of all, I said in my original post that a ruling is not official until it is in the Official Rules or the FAQs: "...Now, I realize it's not official until it makes it into the rules or FAQs..." but that doesn't change the fact that there are not rulings IN the FAQs that we know have already been made. I certainly don't plan on carrying a printout of every page of rulings reported here or on WK's site, but to find a ruling I need, I would almost have to. At a minimum, I have to spend quite some time searching for things now. A single forum would be a nice place to easily locate them. There would be no posting allowed other than the Moderators. Once a ruling had been handed down from Chapeau, they would report it here. Once it makes it into the FAQs, they would delete it.

My one and only PBM game ended at a standstill over a rule that was not posted to the FAQ, even though that's what we agreed to play by, but was ruled on by several judges, although not official. This lead to endless hours of board surfing and discussion and a dead game.

Sounds like you needed the forum I suggested. Also, you wouldn't spend 'endless hours' since it would be an anchored, read-only thread.

Things are fine the way they are. Let things be thought through once, twice . . . even three times before becoming "official"

Problem is, it DOES get thought through several times by Chapeau and the designers before the ruling gets posted back here. Unfortunately, the question has been long forgotten or worse, repeated ad nauseum. Since this thread would not be like the Trade Forum, each time a Moderator posted to it, it would get bumped back up on the front page and people would know the answers to their questions. Even with the suggested forum, the rules STILL won't be official until they are in the FAQs. I am not and will not suggest that when they make the forum, they are official. But at least when they make the forum, we players can learn them and prepare for them for when they DO make it into the FAQs.

it is also true that some rulings have disappeared before being added to the official clarrifications.

With the forum, this wouldn't happen.

You just have to relax and go with the judges you have

My judges are fine, but they are human. Their error cost me the tourney. The game with the Sentinel was my only loss that day. I had ranged people that could have made it into range if I had a chance. But instead I ended up third.

the alternative is to higher a 24 hour internet available staff to answer rules questions and have all participants report to the game room with a laptop.

This sounds like what you want from your previous statement about the standstill. As I have said several times, the rulings listed in the forum would not be official. If the judge WANTS to use them, or the players in a friendly game WANT to use them, they are free to do so. They just aren't official (yet).

[Tsannik]

There is only one problem with what you are proposing, Funky.

A Forum would usually be subject to the clean-up routines they have here. So rather than a forum. It should more be like an Announcements board.

Either way, I'm working on trying to get something done on this. I've had some problems with my scanner, but I still plan on getting those maps scanned and placing them on the 'net. Maybe HCR will help me host them

I say Bah! to any map FAQ put out.

I say that the maps should be scanned and then ruled on. Then there would be no questionas to what square is what.

[Funky Jett]

I hear ya on those map FAQs. Chapeau seemed kind of short on some of his answers on the maps and didn't answer a lot of other questions proposed to him.

Either an anchored Forum or an Announcements Board, all I really want is a centrally located place where these rulings could be posted until they make it into the FAQs.

[Earnan]

Daredevil-

Here's the deal with the specific situation that Funky Jett posted on (this is why I wanted a specific, BTW :) )

Someone asked the question on the boards about if a Sentinel/Sinestro could capture and release in the same turn if they are already at the map edge. It was 'ruled' (I still think clarified is better in this case, because the rules specifically state this, it isn't a ruling merely the correct rules being pointed out, but that's niether here nor there...) that no he could not. The big fig can make 2 attacks, but cannot attack to capture then perform the move action necessary to release the figure. This should be easy to make the ruling on for any Judge, since a move action is needed to release, which cannot be performed in the same round after a successful capture.

The Judge blew the call, Funky called him on it citing an HCRealms thread as his reason. The Judge said it wasn't in the FAQ, so the online Judges ruling meant squat. Technically correct, though the rules that he looked at should have told him he was wrong.

My main point, I think, is that not every question that ever comes up needs to be in the FAQ. This specific one should probably go in, since it seems easy to mess up, but seriously. The Big Fig can move, or attack possibly using it's multi-attack. It cannot attack, then move. Easy answer.

I think there is a dependance on the FAQs. They are a crutch for bad Judges, so that they do not have to work out how the rules work by themselves. If they spent a little time online, like they are supposed to, they can get a lot of the information they need and not blow relatively easy calls such as this.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but there are some of us who spend a lot of time working on the rules and helping people out, and then to see something like this happen is just plain wrong.

WarlordEarnan

[Funky Jett]

Earnan, it's actually more than that situation that prompted my post. That was just the last straw.

I have seen too many new rulings from Chapeau that have been copied here from the WK Judges Forum that did not make it into this last FAQs. Between DC and Marvel, there were a total of 11 individual updates (1 in DC, 4 in Marvel, 6 in both). We all know he made more rulings than that in the 3 1/2 months since the previous update. The Announcement Board would help those judges and players who want to try the new rulings before they become official.

It's just a suggestion. I'll let it go now.

[NateTG]

Originally posted by Earnan

I think there is a dependance on the FAQs. They are a crutch for bad Judges, so that they do not have to work out how the rules work by themselves. If they spent a little time online, like they are supposed to, they can get a lot of the information they need and not blow relatively easy calls such as this.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but there are some of us who spend a lot of time working on the rules and helping people out, and then to see something like this happen is just plain wrong.


A big problem is that WizKids does not AFAIK provide any means for dealing with poor judges or dealing with the results of the poor judging descisions.

Honestly, WK staff, including Chapeau, have made rulings that are contrary to the rules text. Why should a local venue judge be any different.

Consider, for example, that the rules for charge and running shot allow them to be used with the free movement powers. This is now addressed in the FAQ, but should a judge have enforced the ruling before it was official?
Similarly, the MoE-type abilities are so poorly written, even with FAQ 'clarifications', that a judge must make interpretations of how it works, since neither the FAQ nor the rules indicate that the IL attacks occur in sequence, or deal with the effect of or limitations on Close Combat Expert, Flurry, knockback, Charge, Running Shot, or Mind Control during the attack.
And, in a brilliant example of rules-insantiy, Mind-Controlled characters appear to ignore a rule, (No more than one action per character per turn) and according to the people who post on this board, few FAQ rulings (Outwit/Perplex during actions).

[Funky Jett]

Earnan, thanks for stepping up to the plate and taking this to the WK Judges Forum. A judge friend of mine told me about it. I get the feeling you don't agree with this 100%, but yet you still presented it. I couldn't ask for anything more. Thanks, man!