Watchman - Big Figure Questions

[squirecam]

I can already see questions regarding Big Figure's retaliation power.

This Place is Gonna Explode !

Immediately after a character friendly to Big Figure is Defeated, Big Figure or a character friendly to Big Figure can make a close combat attack or a ranged combat attack as a free action.

1 - The use of "Immediately".

Kid Zoom uses HSS to KO a Knot Top. I assume the attack happens before Kid Zoom continues his movement?

Likewise, if Kid Zoom is pushing to make the attack, I assume the attack happens before push damage is applied ?

2 - If Big Figure is KO'd, does a retaliation strike occur or not?

3 - Iron man KO's two figures friendly to Big Figure using Energy Explosion. One retaliation attack or two?

4 - Iron man KO's a figure friendly to Big Figure. Retaliation attack occurs. Now Captain America KO's a second figure (but not the one that retaliated the first time). Can that same figure make a second retaliatory attack?

[nbperp]

All of my answers assume your quote is accurate. I don't have the card in front of me here.

I can already see questions regarding Big Figure's retaliation power.



1 - The use of "Immediately".

Kid Zoom uses HSS to KO a Knot Top. I assume the attack happens before Kid Zoom continues his movement?

Likewise, if Kid Zoom is pushing to make the attack, I assume the attack happens before push damage is applied ?

Your assumptions match mine. Immediately means right away, don't wait for anything to resolve.

2 - If Big Figure is KO'd, does a retaliation strike occur or not?

No - damage is dealt simultaneously (we know this from Energy Explosion and Matermind issues). Therefore, his power wouldn't activate as he would be KO'd.

3 - Iron man KO's two figures friendly to Big Figure using Energy Explosion. One retaliation attack or two?

My inclination is to say "one" here. Deps know where to post so we can discuss and clarify with WK.

4 - Iron man KO's a figure friendly to Big Figure. Retaliation attack occurs. Now Captain America KO's a second figure (but not the one that retaliated the first time). Can that same figure make a second retaliatory attack?

Sure.

[nivlac713]

I can already see questions regarding Big Figure's retaliation power.



1 - The use of "Immediately".

Kid Zoom uses HSS to KO a Knot Top. I assume the attack happens before Kid Zoom continues his movement?

Likewise, if Kid Zoom is pushing to make the attack, I assume the attack happens before push damage is applied ?

2 - If Big Figure is KO'd, does a retaliation strike occur or not?

3 - Iron man KO's two figures friendly to Big Figure using Energy Explosion. One retaliation attack or two?

4 - Iron man KO's a figure friendly to Big Figure. Retaliation attack occurs. Now Captain America KO's a second figure (but not the one that retaliated the first time). Can that same figure make a second retaliatory attack?

1. Immediate usually means that, immediately, interupting anything else going on, so in the middle of the HSS action.
2. No. He is defeated and the power is not active. Unless there are 2 Big Figures out...
3. One. Immediately would mean one attacks and then the power is over before the second attack. Not sure bout this one, but its how I would rule it.
4.Nothing says that the same fig can't attack twice with this, or that the power only goes off once, so yeah, I'd say the same guy could attack twice, unless they FAQ it. Be carefull who you kill with Big Fig out...

Hope that helps and makes sense.

Darn. nbperp types fast.... :>

[squirecam]

All of my answers assume your quote is accurate. I don't have the card in front of me here.



Your assumptions match mine. Immediately means right away, don't wait for anything to resolve.



No - damage is dealt simultaneously (we know this from Energy Explosion and Matermind issues). Therefore, his power wouldn't activate as he would be KO'd.



My inclination is to say "one" here. Deps know where to post so we can discuss and clarify with WK.



Sure.

Thank you.

[Crow]

May I draw to nbperp's attention the impending "problem" of someone fielding a team with Big Figure, an expensive attacker, and a bunch of 1-point Lian Harpers? If all I have to do to let my 300+ point Superman get free attacks over and over is push my Lian Harper army to death on turn 2... we're going to have a problem of this being abused. A 400-point team burning through 3 Lian Harpers every two turns gets 4 attacks out of Superman each time.

It's easy enough to fix - errata it to specify "on an opponent's turn".

[squirecam]

May I draw to nbperp's attention the impending "problem" of someone fielding a team with Big Figure, an expensive attacker, and a bunch of 1-point Lian Harpers? If all I have to do to let my 300+ point Superman get free attacks over and over is push my Lian Harper army to death on turn 2... we're going to have a problem of this being abused. A 400-point team burning through 3 Lian Harpers every two turns gets 4 attacks out of Superman each time.

It's easy enough to fix - errata it to specify "on an opponent's turn".

1 - Lian isnt legal

2 - KO Big Figure first.

It is an abuseable strategy though.

[Crow]

1 - Lian isnt legal

2 - KO Big Figure first.

It is an abuseable strategy though.

1. Golden Age tournaments can happen.

2. KO a figure with Mastermind and a horde of POGs across the board on turn 2? Possible, but your opponent would have to be pretty sloppy to let you access him. It's hard to see this happening.

The only balancing news is that it allows attacks and not full-fledged actions, so you have to have your shot lined up before you start KOing your POGs and taking that shot - over and over again.

[wonderboy8917]

May I draw to nbperp's attention the impending "problem" of someone fielding a team with Big Figure, an expensive attacker, and a bunch of 1-point Lian Harpers? If all I have to do to let my 300+ point Superman get free attacks over and over is push my Lian Harper army to death on turn 2... we're going to have a problem of this being abused. A 400-point team burning through 3 Lian Harpers every two turns gets 4 attacks out of Superman each time.

It's easy enough to fix - errata it to specify "on an opponent's turn".

So someone comes up with a brilliant strategy to use a somewhat pathetic figure by himself, and you automatically want an errata? It's no more broken than Warbound IMO. They can outwit the power, ko Big Figure, separate Big Figure from the heavy hitter. There are a number of things the opposing player can do. Plus the really good combos only work in Golden Age anyways, so when you factor in all the combinations of everything ever printed, there's always going to be some amazing combo out there when new figures with new special powers come out.

I say live and let live.

[Hero_guy]

Yeah, when I first read that power, I had then go back and re-read it a second time to make sure there was no adjacency qualifier for the figure making the attack. I think if that was there, it would make it a little less abuseable.

[wonderboy8917]

Yeah, when I first read that power, I had then go back and re-read it a second time to make sure there was no adjacency qualifier for the figure making the attack. I think if that was there, it would make it a little less abuseable.

huh, I thought I had read they had to be adjacent but now I see it doesn't say that. That makes it even more crazy.

[wonderboy8917]

If you have two Big Figures do you get to make two attacks when a friendly character dies?

[normalview]

If you have two Big Figures do you get to make two attacks when a friendly character dies?

Sure. The active player would have to decide the order (since both attacks occur immediately after the KO), but otherwise no problem.


The REAL question is, at $100 a set, what in the world are you doing with duplicates!!! Money doesn't grow on tress, man!

[Crow]

So someone comes up with a brilliant strategy to use a somewhat pathetic figure by himself, and you automatically want an errata?

It's not a "strategy" so much as it is a silly loophole that can be exploited for an effect that likely wasn't foreseen. Kudos to whomever thought it up and all that, but I love the game too much to see people fielding "parlor tricks" instead of superhero teams.

[spider_ham]

May I draw to nbperp's attention the impending "problem" of someone fielding a team with Big Figure, an expensive attacker, and a bunch of 1-point Lian Harpers? If all I have to do to let my 300+ point Superman get free attacks over and over is push my Lian Harper army to death on turn 2... we're going to have a problem of this being abused. A 400-point team burning through 3 Lian Harpers every two turns gets 4 attacks out of Superman each time.

I'd opt to use Hercules or Namor (or both :devious:) with this method. On the previous turn, Hercules grabs two heavy objects and positions himself adjacent to at least two characters. Namor would do the same (but only holds 1 heavy).

Someone on my team makes a Leadership roll. The extra action is used to push Lian Harper and grants one free attack. Repeat as necessary. If Darkness Within were used, a bystander could be KOd and grant +1 damage to the attacker before the free attack is made.

Once the free attacks have finished, Herc/Namor are given a power action to use Charge and Flurry on two more characters. Alternatively, before one of the Flurry were made, you could use DW at that time to KO a bystander adjacent to Big Figure and the attack for the free attack.

Thundering Blow makes this loophole even worse (Namor can take advantage of it on 3 of 5 of his Charge/Flurry slots), as each combat action after the first successful one will increase the damage value by +1 of all character attacking the target the same character. :knockedou

[nivlac713]

Dang. I was wrong so ignore my pathetic existance.... :>

[squirecam]

The REAL question is, at $100 a set, what in the world are you doing with duplicates!!! Money doesn't grow on tress, man!

Selling them as singles?

[squirecam]

I'd opt to use Hercules or Namor (or both :devious:) with this method. On the previous turn, Hercules grabs two heavy objects and positions himself adjacent to at least two characters. Namor would do the same (but only holds 1 heavy).

Dr. Strange or Mr. Fantastic could use their Perplex SPs to boost Herc/Namor's damage beforehand: a possible +3 :g-starburst: if you have an extra Perplexer.

Someone on my team makes a Leadership roll. The extra action is used to push Lian Harper and grants one free attack. Repeat as necessary.

Once the free attacks have finished, Herc/Namor are given a power action to use Charge and Flurry on two more characters.

Thundering Blow makes this loophole even worse (Namor can take advantage of it on 3 of 5 of his Charge/Flurry slots), as each combat action after the first successful one will increase the damage value by +1 of all character attacking the target the same character. :knockedou Would the effects Thundering Blow stack, provided that the target isn't KO'd quickly?

Outwit or KO big figure. Wont take but 3 damage.

Its dangerous, but you can deal with it.

Ad having Namor/Herc+Fantastic+Big figure means the points are high enough so you can take him out.

Kid Flash + maneuver = exposed Big Figure = KO

[wonderboy8917]

It's not a "strategy" so much as it is a silly loophole that can be exploited for an effect that likely wasn't foreseen. Kudos to whomever thought it up and all that, but I love the game too much to see people fielding "parlor tricks" instead of superhero teams.

How is it a loophole? Is sacrificing a bystander to heal up your Suicide Squad members a loophole? Is masterminding a 5 damage hit to a bystander a loophole? Bystanders are part of the game and powers that can exploit their candidacy as a character on the battlefield have been around for a long long time. It's called strategy in team building and like it or not it is part of the game sir.

[normalview]

Selling them as singles?

Perhaps. But then, that requires someone who is willing to break up a set... and if there are a lot of high demand character that could theoretically go for decent cash (like the Dr. Manhattans) and selling that handful of pieces would recoup what you spent on a set, then selling anything after that (even dirt cheap) would only net you a profit.


So it is possible. But I sure ain't going to be the one to try it.

[spider_ham]

Outwit or KO big figure. Wont take but 3 damage.

Its dangerous, but you can deal with it.

Ad having Namor/Herc+Fantastic+Big figure means the points are high enough so you can take him out.

Kid Flash + maneuver = exposed Big Figure = KO

If I were basing my strategy off of Big Figure's SP, then Fortitude and Mastermind fodder that could reduce damage (LE Cameron Chase) would be a must.

[squirecam]

Perhaps. But then, that requires someone who is willing to break up a set... and if there are a lot of high demand character that could theoretically go for decent cash (like the Dr. Manhattans) and selling that handful of pieces would recoup what you spent on a set, then selling anything after that (even dirt cheap) would only net you a profit.


So it is possible. But I sure ain't going to be the one to try it.

Lets assume $100 as the price.

At 25 figures, if you sold 2 at $20 (the "SR" someone wants from the set, like Dr. M), that's $40.

Some of the other figures should be worth $5. Lets say 5 are. That's $25 more.

You could sell the other figures at $2 and at least break even.

I assume, though, that anyone running 2 Big Figures isnt going to worry about $. They are doing so to try to min/max for Gencon.

[squirecam]

If I were basing my strategy off of Big Figure's SP, then Fortitude and Mastermind fodder that could reduce damage (LE Cameron Chase) would be a must.

Then I could use Nova Blast + Ultron.:cool:

Cheese can always be beaten by more cheese.

In Modern Age though, you'd be vulnerable to Outwit.

[Blaiser]

I really didn't realize how awesome this guy was when I first read his card. Even then I was trying to think of what brute pieces I have so I can use him, but now I REALLY want to field the team I thought of.

[UltraSuperGuy]

This figure is going to need some serious errata. Everyone thinking you can just outwit or bump him off aren't thinking things through, if you keep the guy at the back of the map, surrounded by pogs, you are not going to be able to get LOF to outwit him nor are you going to be able to take him out.

He doesn't need line of fire or adjacency for his special power to work. TOTALLY BROKEN. They HAVE to errata this so it only works on your opponents turn or else it's just lights out if you play this guy.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

It's not a "strategy" so much as it is a silly loophole that can be exploited for an effect that likely wasn't foreseen. Kudos to whomever thought it up and all that, but I love the game too much to see people fielding "parlor tricks" instead of superhero teams.

I think that was me!

I always wanted to invent new cheese.

I did play Tomar Re and Chief warbounded pretty early on... but this is a new level.

[normalview]

if you keep the guy at the back of the map, surrounded by pogs, you are not going to be able to get LOF to outwit him nor are you going to be able to take him out.

Then he's just one EE or PW away from a very bad day.


He's not nearly as hard to take out as a well played LAMP or SIF team. Annoying, sure. But he ain't game breaking.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

This figure is going to need some serious errata. Everyone thinking you can just outwit or bump him off aren't thinking things through, if you keep the guy at the back of the map, surrounded by pogs, you are not going to be able to get LOF to outwit him nor are you going to be able to take him out.

He doesn't need line of fire or adjacency for his special power to work. TOTALLY BROKEN. They HAVE to errata this so it only works on your opponents turn or else it's just lights out if you play this guy.

Or just make it once per turn.

[Terman8er]

Then I could use Nova Blast + Ultron.:cool:


In modern age that won't work. :d-indomitable: = Willpower.

And in modern age you can't use Nova Blast.

Ignatz has forced me to correct that statement to make it more relevant.

With Blackest Night that won't work. :d-indomitable: = Willpower.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

And in modern age you can't use Nova Blast.

[squirecam]

And in modern age you can't use Nova Blast.

But no fortitude either.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Touché!

...
...

[UltraSuperGuy]

Then he's just one EE or PW away from a very bad day.


He's not nearly as hard to take out as a well played LAMP or SIF team. Annoying, sure. But he ain't game breaking.

He's utterly game-breaking. I don't care if you've got a whole team set up with PW or EE to take him out, I'm not going to LET YOU take him out. I'll have my main attackers out in front getting free actions and free actions, any of your figs that could take him out even if you designed a team to do that would get decimated and fried long before they could ever get back to the map to get him.

[normalview]

He's utterly game-breaking. I don't care if you've got a whole team set up with PW or EE to take him out, I'm not going to LET YOU take him out. I'll have my main attackers out in front getting free actions and free actions, any of your figs that could take him out even if you designed a team to do that would get decimated and fried long before they could ever get back to the map to get him.

I am not going to get in to chest-beating contest with you.

Suffice to say, I completely disagree. If you can do that, you are either playing a less than proficient opponent, or you are some how misunderstanding exactly how this power works.

Either way, I am done.

[Harpua]

He's utterly game-breaking. I don't care if you've got a whole team set up with PW or EE to take him out, I'm not going to LET YOU take him out. I'll have my main attackers out in front getting free actions and free actions, any of your figs that could take him out even if you designed a team to do that would get decimated and fried long before they could ever get back to the map to get him.

1) Let's wait and see how he actually plays before screaming busting out the protection from the falling sky.

2) Can someone do an IP check to make sure that this guy claiming that he'll be able to take down any comer isn't VGA with a bogus sign on?



People act like every attack made is an automatic success or something.

[normalview]

People act like every attack made is an automatic success or something.

In this instance, I am choosing to define "something" as, "Can automatically draw LOF, have enough damage to get through damage reduction and/or deal penetrating damage, bypass Super Senses or Master Mind or any of the other numerous ways to avoid damage/attacks, *not* take Mystics damage, and get that all done to ALL of my character before you run out of that fodder you are constantly pushing to death (which gives me VPs, too)."

At least, I think that's what "something" means... :cheeky:

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I'm certainly not VGA, nor do I think this guy is an automatic win. I *do* think he's easily abused and wil warp the metagame, and that that could be easily fixed with either of a couple options for errata.

[The7ofDiamonds]

Yeah, I'm for the once per turn errata. I'm surprised at the people that didn't realize the pushing bystanders to death strategy immediately. I read it and it was the only thing I saw. Not because I play cheese, but because I hate playing against it and can easily recognize it.

[Surfer13]

Big Figure=49
Dr. Strange=149

That leaves room for a whole lot of pogs, even in modern age. I could fit 20 Lois Lane pogs on a 300 point team, including the ones with an 18 defense all around the Doctor, who can fire through them at will with respectable attack and damage numbers, made more so by his perplex.

And this is important to note that this is for modern age. In golden age sure, my opponent can have feats, but I can too, and use Lian Harpers. In a 300 point game I only have room for 30 points in feats, max, so I would have room for a staggering 70 Lian Harpers that you can't shoot through but Dr. Strange can, and will do so quite often, as in every time he can draw a LoF to a hostile when a Lian goes away.

[UltraSuperGuy]

I'm sure he will get changed. It's just too crazy.

[CarlosMucha]

this free action come with a token or not? (and/or pushing damage?)

[Maraud]

this free action come with a token or not? (and/or pushing damage?)

no that is why it is a free action.

[UltraSuperGuy]

Even if he gets errata so that it only happens on your opponents turn and he has to be adjacent to the figure given the free action, he's still ridiculous.

Imagine a Green Lantern team with a bunch of GL's all equipped with Elite Sniper all carrying pogs around. Nightmarish!

[vlad3theimpaler]

My inclination is to say "one" here. Deps know where to post so we can discuss and clarify with WK.

That must be the super-duper top secret deputies only forum that Harpua is always teasing me about.

[nbperp]

That must be the super-duper top secret deputies only forum that Harpua is always teasing me about.

Pssst.... Harpua - what's up with this guy? Someone should take him arond back, knowhatImean?

:)

[Amora's_best_friend]

Say I have Big Figure on his second click, an Alicia Masters pog (with the Fantastic Four team ability) and starter set Thing adjacent to an opposing character on his second click.

If I push Alicia Masters to death, which happens first: the F4 TA healing, or the free attack granted by Big Figure?

[zero_cochrane]

He's utterly game-breaking. I don't care if you've got a whole team set up with PW or EE to take him out, I'm not going to LET YOU take him out. I'll have my main attackers out in front getting free actions and free actions, any of your figs that could take him out even if you designed a team to do that would get decimated and fried long before they could ever get back to the map to get him.Your confidence is admirable, but regardless, if somebody can TK out a Pulse Wave character to take out all of your bystanders (and if you're using Lian Harper, just about any Pulse Waver can hardly miss!), that takes out your entire source of free attacks.

And this can happen on turn 2.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Your confidence is admirable, but regardless, if somebody can TK out a Pulse Wave character to take out all of your bystanders (and if you're using Lian Harper, just about any Pulse Waver can hardly miss!), that takes out your entire source of free attacks.

And this can happen on turn 2.

Still, even if I am using 10 or so Lian Harpers, and you kill them all in one action, then that's effectively giving me a free attack for 10 points, which isn't shabby.

And once you've pulse waved all the Lians dead, you're in Big Figure's outwit range (and within his attack range, unless you have a PWer with 14 range), so he'll have his lovely way with your pulse waver.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Still, even if I am using 10 or so Lian Harpers, and you kill them all in one action, then that's effectively giving me a free attack for 10 points, which isn't shabby.

And once you've pulse waved all the Lians dead, you're in Big Figure's outwit range (and within his attack range, unless you have a PWer with 14 range), so he'll have his lovely way with your pulse waver.

Yep.

Also, TK/RS/PW remains one of the best combos against a lot of things, as always. But the fact the BF and crew don't need LOF/range to anything means that they are going to be in the worst spot of the board for you to attack.

BF's Mastermind is not the point, btw, it's just gravy. The "as many times as you like" power is the issue.

[Amora's_best_friend]

A nice team:

Big Figure 49
Thing 100
Mr. Fantastic 100
Lockjaw 24
Alicia Masters 5
Alicia Masters 5
Mary Jane-Watson Parker 5
Mary Jane-Watson Parker 5
Lian Harper 1 (x7)


Just the thought of Mary Jane carrying Big Figure about makes me lol.

[Harpua]

A nice team:

Big Figure 49
Thing 100
Mr. Fantastic 100
Lockjaw 24
Alicia Masters 5
Alicia Masters 5
Mary Jane-Watson Parker 5
Mary Jane-Watson Parker 5
Lian Harper 1 (x7)


Just the thought of Mary Jane carrying Big Figure about makes me lol.
I'm not seeing how MJ is carrying anyone.
Still, even if I am using 10 or so Lian Harpers, and you kill them all in one action, then that's effectively giving me a free attack for 10 points, which isn't shabby.

And once you've pulse waved all the Lians dead, you're in Big Figure's outwit range (and within his attack range, unless you have a PWer with 14 range), so he'll have his lovely way with your pulse waver.
And if BF is in that PW, too, then you don't even get the free attack.


EDIT: (And why is nobody considering Jarvis as he can push himself to KO without burning an action?)
Say I have Big Figure on his second click, an Alicia Masters pog (with the Fantastic Four team ability) and starter set Thing adjacent to an opposing character on his second click.

If I push Alicia Masters to death, which happens first: the F4 TA healing, or the free attack granted by Big Figure?
The free attack will happen first as the timing is such that you have no choice. Without the "immediately" in BF's power, these effects would be simultaneous and the choice would be up to the active player. Since the immediately is there, then BFs power is first.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

MJ is copying Underworld to carry Big Figure.

[Harpua]

MJ is copying Underworld to carry Big Figure.
Ok. I see.

They've updated the cards in the previews. (Norm said that would be happening, but I hadn't looked back.)

When first posted, they read:
"When a character with this team ability is given a move action it can use the Carry ability but can only carry characters that possess the Underworld team ability; it can carry two friendly characters, if both have the Underworld team ability and a lower point value."

Now they say "using" so it is ok.

[BigSoph]

I can already see questions regarding Big Figure's retaliation power.

This Place is Gonna Explode !
Immediately after a character friendly to Big Figure is Defeated, Big Figure or a character friendly to Big Figure can make a close combat attack or a ranged combat attack as a free action.

3 - Iron man KO's two figures friendly to Big Figure using Energy Explosion. One retaliation attack or two?

4 - Iron man KO's a figure friendly to Big Figure. Retaliation attack occurs. Now Captain America KO's a second figure (but not the one that retaliated the first time). Can that same figure make a second retaliatory attack?

I would say, based on the wording, you check each time a character is KO'd. It does not say once per turn or any other limit. And if two are KO'd simultaneously then you get two free attacks. You can take any number of free actions ("you may give your characters as many free actions as game effects allow", from the latest rules.)

Now there is the coming questions about probability control if an enemy KOs my character. These attacks could not be PC'd! If I was running Big Figure, these attacks would be my rolls during your turn - so neither of us can use PC! (of course, if I use the push Lian to death technique, the rolls would be PC'able)

[UltraSuperGuy]

Your confidence is admirable, but regardless, if somebody can TK out a Pulse Wave character to take out all of your bystanders (and if you're using Lian Harper, just about any Pulse Waver can hardly miss!), that takes out your entire source of free attacks.

And this can happen on turn 2.

No, it won't. Even if you take a Pulse Waver with the longest reach possible, like Nimrod with Running Shot of 12 and range of 10 and you TK him out from your furthest starting position from the map (1 square in), you get 8 squares with TK, 6 more with RS, and then 5 range for PW, so that's 20 squares into the map and I've got Big Figure at the back of the map, 24 squares away. Even if you perplex up your range or speed by 3, rounding up by half that only increases your reach by 2, still don't get him.

You would have to carry your Tker further in before you TKed your pulse waver, you would need the right map to pull it off and I would have to construct my team so poorly as to not have long range slammers and/or outwit that I couldn't stop this, or else I could put up barriers around my Big Figure and Pogs if I was really worried about someone bringing Nova Blast.

No, this fig needs some serious errata to nerf it from the current wording, otherwise there will just be two heroclix games, those with Big Figure and those without and even if someone without constructs a team solely to beat a Big Figure team, their chances are slim. And then you have games with Big Figure teams vs Big Figure teams, those games will be over very quickly! :confused:

[Amora's_best_friend]

Is there a BFC that says "No figures take pushing damage?"

[Quebbster]

No, it won't. Even if you take a Pulse Waver with the longest reach possible, like Nimrod with Running Shot of 12 and range of 10 and you TK him out from your furthest starting position from the map (1 square in), you get 8 squares with TK, 6 more with RS, and then 5 range for PW, so that's 20 squares into the map and I've got Big Figure at the back of the map, 24 squares away. Even if you perplex up your range or speed by 3, rounding up by half that only increases your reach by 2, still don't get him.
The "longest reach possible" is actually V Starhawk, who has 12 range, PW and 10 move Running Shot. Also, you need to remember that with the BN rules all modifiers are applied after replacements, so if you Perplex up Starhawk's Speed and range by 3 each he would be moving 8 squares (5+3) and then PWing everyone within 9 range (6+3). Add in 8 squares Telekinesis movement (hello R Aleta!), and he can affect figures 25 squares away from his starting position - so he can reach the other side of the board and still have some margin to spare if you really cheese it up.

[Harpua]

No, it won't. Even if you take a Pulse Waver with the longest reach possible, like Nimrod with Running Shot of 12 and range of 10 and you TK him out from your furthest starting position from the map (1 square in), you get 8 squares with TK, 6 more with RS, and then 5 range for PW, so that's 20 squares into the map and I've got Big Figure at the back of the map, 24 squares away. Even if you perplex up your range or speed by 3, rounding up by half that only increases your reach by 2, still don't get him.
You replace, then modify.

If you Perplex his Speed by +3, that's (12/2)+3 = 9.
If you Perplex his Range by +3, that's (10/2)+3 = 8.
9(RS)+8(PW)+8(TK) is 25 in itself. Add a map like the Space map and you're really talking some distance.

[Harpua]

Is there a BFC that says "No figures take pushing damage?"

Not that I can recall.

Now a fun one on the team above would be to play a figure with Inspiring Command and the appropriate team symbols to prevent the pogs from taking pushing damage.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Yes. Aleta and The One Who Knows come to everyone's rescue, yet again.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Not that I can recall.

Now a fun one on the team above would be to play a figure with Inspiring Command and the appropriate team symbols to prevent the pogs from taking pushing damage.

Oh, does inspiring command work on opposing figures too?

[Harpua]

Oh, does inspiring command work on opposing figures too?

Yes it does, but you can cancel it, of course. Under the right circumstances it could make for a very fun match against a figure with an activation click.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Yes it does, but you can cancel it, of course. Under the right circumstances it could make for a very fun match against a figure with an activation click.

Yes.

I just had an immediate flashing vision of V Hourman trying to fight U Starman.

But then I realised V Hourman's activation click is one of my favourite clicks in the whole game, because it's actually really good in combat. 9 attack 16 defense is all I want in life.

Much like all I need in life is 500 a year and a room of my own. And a hard ####, if I'm in a Tori Amos mood.

[bugleboy]

I love how everytime a broken combination of powers is discovered, people bring up the "Yeah, well pulse wave can handle that" argument.
How many times do you see this "pulse wave" team brought to tournaments? And when they are, they usually do not do well because a well built, well-rounded team usually beats them. They are not the most competitive team.
This big-figure team, as it stands, will easily win (die rolls not withstanding) on a regular basis.

If the rule stands, I predict you are looking at the new World-Championship winning team.

That is, if anyone actually has the cajones to bring it to Gencon. :laugh:

[normalview]

How many times do you see this "pulse wave" team brought to tournaments? And when they are, they usually do not do well because a well built, well-rounded team usually beats them. They are not the most competitive team.

Honestly? I play PW a lot. And not Nova Blast PW, either. And, yes, I do in fact do well with my PW teams.

It's probably my second favorite power (first being Barrier... and it is very nice how well Barrier and PW work together to isolate targets). MC might slightly edge it out, but that kind of depends on how I am feeling that day.

[neutralmarkhot]

Legendary Day from HoT is the BFC that gives everyone Willpower.

Also, the Blue Lantern special object allows you to TK out 10 squares.

[Harpua]

Legendary Day from HoT is the BFC that gives everyone Willpower.

Also, the Blue Lantern special object allows you to TK out 10 squares.

Just remember that it lets everyone use WP. You don't have to use the WP, though.

[Harpua]

I love how everytime a broken combination of powers is discovered, people bring up the "Yeah, well pulse wave can handle that" argument.
How many times do you see this "pulse wave" team brought to tournaments? And when they are, they usually do not do well because a well built, well-rounded team usually beats them. They are not the most competitive team.
This big-figure team, as it stands, will easily win (die rolls not withstanding) on a regular basis.

If the rule stands, I predict you are looking at the new World-Championship winning team.

That is, if anyone actually has the cajones to bring it to Gencon. :laugh:
Do I think he's extremely powerful? Yes.
Do I think he's probably under costed? Yes.
Would I mind seeing some change to him? No.

Is he unbeatable? Certainly not.
Does he guarantee a win? Not in the least.

He's certainly easier to beat than a well-crafted SIF team. Has there been a change to SIF? No.

It just makes me laugh when people start screaming "BROKEN" when the figure has not even seen any play by anyone.

[bugleboy]

Has there been a change to SIF? No.


The answer is yes, yes there has. It's called Modern Age, as we know a
'well-crafted SIF team' is based around Warbound. They have also taken great pains to create many specific SP's that deal with SIF in particular.

Did they change SIF itself? No. Do I think they will change this guy?
Who knows. If someone at our venue shows up with Big-Figure and a bunch of Lian Harper's, will he get hounded mercilessly? Yes.

[bugleboy]

It just makes me laugh when people start screaming "BROKEN" when the figure has not even seen any play by anyone.

It's not hard to analyze how a game will unfold, based solely on looking at dials. Especially when the strategy that is being put forward with this figure is so mind-numbingly simple.

[Harpua]

It's not hard to analyze how a game will unfold, based solely on looking at dials. Especially when the strategy that is being put forward with this figure is so mind-numbingly simple.
...with MANY mind-numbingly simple counter strategies also listed.

[Harpua]

The answer is yes, yes there has. It's called Modern Age, as we know a
'well-crafted SIF team' is based around Warbound. They have also taken great pains to create many specific SP's that deal with SIF in particular.
Yeah, the SOLE reason for Modern Age and those SPs was to get rid of SIF. :rolleyes:

It reminds me of how people still say that HSS was changed for the sole purpose of neutering the (at the time one or two year old) Icons Superman.

[Starfire]

Surely this interpretation of the rules originally quoted by Quebbster cannot be correct:

Also, you need to remember that with the BN rules all modifiers are applied after replacements, so if you Perplex up Starhawk's Speed and range by 3 each he would be moving 8 squares (5+3) and then PWing everyone within 9 range (6+3).

Yes, the new rules say modifiers are applied after replacements but that is during a single action. As in using the Fantastic Four ATA and then adding Energy Shield/Deflection when targeted for a ranged attack.

In the Starhawk example the three seperate free actions used to provide the three perplexes have been completed. The +1 modifier is applied after each seperate free action, not at some later time during a different action. Starhawks range is now 15 (12+3=15). A fourth new action is declared to provide the Pulse Wave. This current 15 range is then halved to 8.

Using the above quoted reasoning one could perplex up damage by +3. Launch a pulse wave, the damage is replaced by 1 and then the +3 perplex is applied and you have a 4 damage Pulse Wave with no Nova Blast card needed. I am sure that most people would agree that Perplex actions have been completed and the replacement of the damage value happens afterward as it is a new action.

I really hope that this arguement clarifies the "replace then modify" rule in that it applies during a single action and not over the course of the above 4 actions. Perhaps a small amendment to the Players Guide is needed. I sincerely hope that I have not given some a reason to argue for being able to now modify Pulse Wave damage.

On a side note, halving (dividing by 2) a value is not a "replacement" of that value. It is a "modification" of the value. The new value has a direct relation to the older value. With a "replacement" the new value has no direct relation to the older value.

[theclixster]

What if u just neuter / tie-up the tank/free attacker?

[vlad3theimpaler]

Surely this interpretation of the rules originally quoted by Quebbster cannot be correct:



Yes, the new rules say modifiers are applied after replacements but that is during a single action. As in using the Fantastic Four ATA and then adding Energy Shield/Deflection when targeted for a ranged attack.

In the Starhawk example the three seperate free actions used to provide the three perplexes have been completed. The +1 modifier is applied after each seperate free action, not at some later time during a different action. Starhawks range is now 15 (12+3=15). A fourth new action is declared to provide the Pulse Wave. This current 15 range is then halved to 8.

Using the above quoted reasoning one could perplex up damage by +3. Launch a pulse wave, the damage is replaced by 1 and then the +3 perplex is applied and you have a 4 damage Pulse Wave with no Nova Blast card needed. I am sure that most people would agree that Perplex actions have been completed and the replacement of the damage value happens afterward as it is a new action.

I really hope that this arguement clarifies the "replace then modify" rule in that it applies during a single action and not over the course of the above 4 actions. Perhaps a small amendment to the Players Guide is needed. I sincerely hope that I have not given some a reason to argue for being able to now modify Pulse Wave damage.

On a side note, halving (dividing by 2) a value is not a "replacement" of that value. It is a "modification" of the value. The new value has a direct relation to the older value. With a "replacement" the new value has no direct relation to the older value.

Incorrect on both counts. The new rules have indeed changed the way the "replace, then modify" rule works, so that they are now all applied at the same time, regardless of the action that they came from.
And halving is, and has to my knowledge always been, a replacement. If it was a modifier, it would be subject to the rule of 3, which we all know that it isn't.

[Amora's_best_friend]

What if u just neuter / tie-up the tank/free attacker?

Easier said than done, especially if its Thing, who's going to be healed each time an Alicia Masters pushes to death, or its a Suicide Squad member who will get healed everytime an adjacent character dies (please correct me if that's wrong, I've not looked at the SS TA in ages)

[Harpua]

Surely this interpretation of the rules originally quoted by Quebbster cannot be correct:



Yes, the new rules say modifiers are applied after replacements but that is during a single action. As in using the Fantastic Four ATA and then adding Energy Shield/Deflection when targeted for a ranged attack.

In the Starhawk example the three seperate free actions used to provide the three perplexes have been completed. The +1 modifier is applied after each seperate free action, not at some later time during a different action. Starhawks range is now 15 (12+3=15). A fourth new action is declared to provide the Pulse Wave. This current 15 range is then halved to 8.
That's the way it used to work, but Quebbster is correct on how it works now.
Page 6:
"1) THE RULE OF REPLACE THEN MODIFYWhenever a combat value needs to be calculated for any game effect, the controller of the character whose value needs to be calculated starts with the printed value, applies all replacement values in any order, then applies the sum of all modifiers to arrive at a final result."

There's really no interpretation, either. It spells it out pretty clearly.
Using the above quoted reasoning one could perplex up damage by +3. Launch a pulse wave, the damage is replaced by 1 and then the +3 perplex is applied and you have a 4 damage Pulse Wave with no Nova Blast card needed.
This won;t work as Pulse wave still says the damage becomes 1 until the action resolves.
I am sure that most people would agree that Perplex actions have been completed and the replacement of the damage value happens afterward as it is a new action.
That's true. The actions have been completed, but the modifier apply after replacement.

I really hope that this arguement clarifies the "replace then modify" rule in that it applies during a single action and not over the course of the above 4 actions. Perhaps a small amendment to the Players Guide is needed. I sincerely hope that I have not given some a reason to argue for being able to now modify Pulse Wave damage.
Well, nothing's going to change, but it doesn't work as you've stated.

On a side note, halving (dividing by 2) a value is not a "replacement" of that value. It is a "modification" of the value. The new value has a direct relation to the older value. With a "replacement" the new value has no direct relation to the older value.
This is incorrect.
Page 5:
"REPLACEMENT VALUES
Some game effects substitute one combat value for another. These substitute values are called replacement values. When one value becomes or is used instead of the value printed on the dial, it is a replacement value. When a character’s combat value is reduced by half or doubled, those are also replacement values. Replacement values set combat values to specific numbers, or halves; they never involve adding or subtracting."


EDIT: To quote PW:
"PULSE WAVE Give this character a ranged combat action; halve its range value until the action has been resolved. Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack. At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power. If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored. If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1 until the action has been resolved. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters."

Of course, you can still up the damage of a single target Pulse Wave as you have been able to do in the past.

[Jarimy123]

Do I think he's extremely powerful? Yes.
Do I think he's probably under costed? Yes.
Would I mind seeing some change to him? No.

Is he unbeatable? Certainly not.
Does he guarantee a win? Not in the least.

He's certainly easier to beat than a well-crafted SIF team. Has there been a change to SIF? No.

It just makes me laugh when people start screaming "BROKEN" when the figure has not even seen any play by anyone.

It makes me laugh that you can be so dismissive about a figure that is so obviously abusable.

You know the rules really well, so for you to scoff at people realizing how dangerous of an element this special power just seems a little "high and mighty" of you man.

Just because things like SIF were never changed, doesn't mean it didn't need to be and wasn't a problem. It was, and most people with a simple grasp of competitive play, can take a look at this figure and see that it could be a really abusable piece.

Now, maybe I am totally reading what you've been saying in this thread wrong, so please don't take it as confrontational, it just seems a little off that you are just scoffing at people voicing something that could be so highly abused in the game.

[Harpua]

Now, maybe I am totally reading what you've been saying in this thread wrong, so please don't take it as confrontational, it just seems a little off that you are just scoffing at people voicing something that could be so highly abused in the game.
The knee jerk reactions being displayed are, imo, gross overreactions.

Read my post you quoted again. You'll see that I'm in agreement that the power we've seen is definitely powerful, possibly ripe for abuse.

That said, I remember people make such drastic statements about how such-and-such figure was totally going to dominate the game and so far, I haven't seen it happen. Most recently, I recall it being said of Kid Zoom or Inertia.

On top of that, we've already seen them repost the cards for the first wave of Watchmen previews. It is still possible that these cards are also older versions.

[Jarimy123]

The knee jerk reactions being displayed are, imo, gross overreactions.

Read my post you quoted again. You'll see that I'm in agreement that the power we've seen is definitely powerful, possibly ripe for abuse.

That said, I remember people make such drastic statements about how such-and-such figure was totally going to dominate the game and so far, I haven't seen it happen. Most recently, I recall it being said of Kid Zoom or Inertia.

On top of that, we've already seen them repost the cards for the first wave of Watchmen previews. It is still possible that these cards are also older versions.

Yea I hear you on the knee-jerk stuff. You probably witness it a lot more than I do as well, since you are pretty much knee deep in the rules forums for life hahahaha.

I try to wait on judgement as well - but as is this power could be really out of control.

[vlad3theimpaler]

It makes me laugh that you can be so dismissive about a figure that is so obviously abusable.

You know the rules really well, so for you to scoff at people realizing how dangerous of an element this special power just seems a little "high and mighty" of you man.

Just because things like SIF were never changed, doesn't mean it didn't need to be and wasn't a problem. It was, and most people with a simple grasp of competitive play, can take a look at this figure and see that it could be a really abusable piece.

Now, maybe I am totally reading what you've been saying in this thread wrong, so please don't take it as confrontational, it just seems a little off that you are just scoffing at people voicing something that could be so highly abused in the game.

Why not be dismissive? We're talking about a game played with LITTLE PLASTIC MEN. I know, internets r srious bizness and all, but honestly, even if the figure DOES turn out to be overpowered, so what? It just means that the big tournaments will see a shift in the metagame to compensate, and the small, friendly tournaments will just continue to do whatever those particular venues do. We haven't even had a chance to see the piece in action yet. The sky didn't fall when Kid Zoom came out, and I don't think it will when Big Figure comes out, either. But, it's certainly not something to lose any sleep over.

[The7ofDiamonds]

Why not be dismissive? We're talking about a game played with LITTLE PLASTIC MEN.

And Wonder WOMAN would be very dismissive of someone who would say that!

[vlad3theimpaler]

And Wonder WOMAN would be very dismissive of someone who would say that!

Little plastic men AND Women. Better?

[Harpua]

Little plastic men AND Women. Better?

You're forgetting the robots, gender-neutral, animal, hermaphrodite, and otherwise non-man/woman figures.

[Blaiser]

You're forgetting the robots, gender-neutral, animal, hermaphrodite, and otherwise non-man/woman figures.

Yeah, don't leave out the animal/women, those are my favorites :cheeky:

[vlad3theimpaler]

You're forgetting the robots, gender-neutral, animal, hermaphrodite, and otherwise non-man/woman figures.

And that is why I just said plastic man in my original post. I figured that it would be understood to include all of the above by default. It wasn't intended to be limiting, merely representative, as the majority of heroclix figures are in fact men. And I can't believe I'm almost having a serious conversation about this...

[b11a2]

I just realized from this thread that no adjacency is required for this power to go off. Impressive! I think this set will make the tournament scene (especially the high-point Golden Age tourneys) very interesting!

[Captain Krueger]

OK, the guy seems to rock a bit. For an army player such as me, he definitely seems to be great cheese.
Let see some situations :
1) I pack Big Figure with a bunch of Thug and Gertrude & Old Lace. One of my Thug is KO. I got a Thug and G&OL adjacent to an opposing character. If I give a free attack to the Thug, G&OL gets a free attack too with her SP, right ?
2) Bronze Tiger is pairing with a Criminal and Big Figure. My opponent KO the Criminal, which happens to be adjacent to both the opposing figure and Bronze Tiger. Since Bronze Tiger is Suicide Squad, can I heal him BEFORE making the free attack gained via Big Figure SP ?
3) I play Hela and Big Figure. If I roll correctly for Hela power, did Big Figure SP still activates ?

[Captain Krueger]

sorry, double post

[VanisherPunisher]

1) I pack Big Figure with a bunch of Thug and Gertrude & Old Lace. One of my Thug is KO. I got a Thug and G&OL adjacent to an opposing character. If I give a free attack to the Thug, G&OL gets a free attack too with her SP, right ?

Well, let's see:

LEND A DINO: When an adjacent friendly character makes a close combat attack against a single opposing target, if Gertrude Yorkes and Old Lace are also adjacent to that target they can make a close combat attacke against that target as a free action.

Lend a Dino triggers from a close combat attack and that is what Big Figure's power gives, so they should work together.

2) Bronze Tiger is pairing with a Criminal and Big Figure. My opponent KO the Criminal, which happens to be adjacent to both the opposing figure and Bronze Tiger. Since Bronze Tiger is Suicide Squad, can I heal him BEFORE making the free attack gained via Big Figure SP ?

Big Figure's power says immideatly, so I would think that you make the attack first and then heal.

3) I play Hela and Big Figure. If I roll correctly for Hela power, did Big Figure SP still activates ?

Let's look at Hela's power:

TOUCH OF LIFE: Whenever another friendly character is KO'd, you may roll 2d6. This roll can't be rerolled or modified. On a result of 11 or 12, the character is not defeated; instead roll a d6 and heal the character of damage equal to the result.

Big Figure's power triggers when a friendly character is defeated. When Touch of Life works the character is not defeated, so BF's power will not allow a free attack.

[Harpua]

Well, let's see:



Lend a Dino triggers from a close combat attack and that is what Big Figure's power gives, so they should work together.



Big Figure's power says immideatly, so I would think that you make the attack first and then heal.



Let's look at Hela's power:



Big Figure's power triggers when a friendly character is defeated. When Touch of Life works the character is not defeated, so BF's power will not allow a free attack.

I concur with VP.

And nice call on the Lend a Dino, CK.

Reps all around.

[Jarimy123]

Why not be dismissive? We're talking about a game played with LITTLE PLASTIC MEN. I know, internets r srious bizness and all, but honestly, even if the figure DOES turn out to be overpowered, so what? It just means that the big tournaments will see a shift in the metagame to compensate, and the small, friendly tournaments will just continue to do whatever those particular venues do. We haven't even had a chance to see the piece in action yet. The sky didn't fall when Kid Zoom came out, and I don't think it will when Big Figure comes out, either. But, it's certainly not something to lose any sleep over.

Dude it's hcrealms you are talking about here...

[zero_cochrane]

Dude it's hcrealms you are talking about here...Geez man, you don't have to act so dismissive of the Realms...









j/k!



.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

I just realized that Big Figure is not unique... :eek: :eek: :eek: !

Two perplexes to the DM of an attacker, move them out to where they can see and attack, push a pog to death and get two attacks.

DF almost equals granting another figure full-move charge or running shot with multiple attacks on the other end.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Lend A Dino, and you've got 2n free attacks for 1 point, where n is the number of Big Figures you have in play.

[Amora's_best_friend]

And Big Figure can mastermind onto an adjacent Big Figure. And can carry him too. EDIT: That said, he does only have 4 speed... Still, could be really useful to get yourself out a tight situation.

I'm just crying at how good he is, even if you DON'T abuse him.

[Jarimy123]

And Big Figure can mastermind onto an adjacent Big Figure. And can carry him too.

I'm just crying at how good he is, even if you DON'T abuse him.

Mastermind can only be dealt to characters with a point value less than the figure with mastermind. So it doesn't work on figures with the same PV.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Mastermind can only be dealt to characters with a point value less than the figure with mastermind. So it doesn't work on figures with the same PV.

Trait - TAKE A DIVE FOR ME: When Big Figure uses Mastermind, he can deal the damage to an adjacent friendly character with a point value of 100 or less. This damage can not later be dealt to Big Figure.

[Jarimy123]

Trait - TAKE A DIVE FOR ME: When Big Figure uses Mastermind, he can deal the damage to an adjacent friendly character with a point value of 100 or less. This damage can not later be dealt to Big Figure.

Man I hate the rules forum, why do I ever even visit it?

You're the best, I'm the worst. You're good looking, I'm not very attractive.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Man I hate the rules forum, why do I ever even visit it?

You're the best, I'm the worst. You're good looking, I'm not very attractive.

Dear Dar',

Your mum, my friend, left a message on my machine. She was frantic, saying you were talking crazy. Saying that you wanted to do away with yourself.

I guess she thought I'd be a perfect resort, because we've had this inexplicable connection since our youth.



7WyIFwlMwYk

[mistercoffeeman]

The spirit of the power leads me think that an appropriate errata for BF would be if his power triggered the free attack "whenever a friendly character is defeated as the result of an attack" or some wording to that effect. That would seem fair.

[jak7890]

I think he's a solid piece, but I don't really think that he's going to be so game changing as all of that. Why you ask?

Elevated outwitter. Maybe some super cheap (and common) EE for good measure.

[Amora's_best_friend]

That's making the (massive) assumption that you'll be able to draw line of fire to him to outwit him. And that you have 2 outwits, to outwit his attack SP and his outwit.

And EE doesn't solve anything, necessarily. Especially when he wants you to kill his bystander cronies.

Pulse Wave works to kill off the bystanders without retaliation, but as mentioned before, as soon as you are close enough to PW, Big Figure and his rear guard will have their way personally with you.

Really, your best strategy is to hit the tank hard and fast, and hope you can weather the storm.

[xer0sum]

I really wish Harpua hadn't backed down with the whole "this might not even be the real card" thing. If you think it's unstoppable, you have two options. 1) Stop playing for 2 years and than only play Modern Age. 2) get smarter.

I no longer play FPS because I only have the ability to run straight ahead while holding shoot. Thankfully in heroclix I play smarter. Big Figure's power is rough. Really rough. But there are things you can do, and should do in games anyway, that mean you'll have a fair chance at winning. Read the strategy forums people alot smarter than me post there with good ideas.

[jak7890]

That's making the (massive) assumption that you'll be able to draw line of fire to him to outwit him. And that you have 2 outwits, to outwit his attack SP and his outwit.

And EE doesn't solve anything, necessarily. Especially when he wants you to kill his bystander cronies.

Pulse Wave works to kill off the bystanders without retaliation, but as mentioned before, as soon as you are close enough to PW, Big Figure and his rear guard will have their way personally with you.

Really, your best strategy is to hit the tank hard and fast, and hope you can weather the storm.

Long Explanation:
Well, seeing as how elevated terrain makes it pretty easy to draw line of fire, I don't think there's much massive about that assumption. Sure, barrier could get in the way, but that's about it and not really a big deal.

Secondly, Big Figure can't outwit on my turn. One outwit to take care of his SP, some energy explosion to clean out the mooks (this supposedly unbeatable strategy revolves around cheap pogs after all), and then big figure's left with much less of a role.

Short Explanation:
Elevated outwitter and some cheap EE for good measure.

[jak7890]

And for bonus options:

-Use elevation or a giant with outwit and good range to hose Big Figure first
-Use a stealthed range piece
-Use an elevated Black Tom Cassidy (stealth, range, EE, outwit)
-Use Barrier to block off the beatsticks' line of attack
-Use perplexes to neuter damage values

[antedoX]

Just so I'm 100% clear here:

Assuming I have the appropriate amount of allotted actions, I can, on the second round of a game:

Push Big Figure to his second click
Move a big primary attacker (say, Odin) into a tactical position within range and LoF to several targets (and use Outwit if need be)
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin (due to BF's Perplex)
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin
ad infinitum or until I run out of targets

Is this seriously possible?

[xer0sum]

Just so I'm 100% clear here:

Assuming I have the appropriate amount of allotted actions, I can, on the second round of a game:

Push Big Figure to his second click
Move a big primary attacker (say, Odin) into a tactical position within range and LoF to several targets (and use Outwit if need be)
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin (due to BF's Perplex)
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin
Push a pog to death
Gain a free 6 dmg attack with Odin
ad infinitum or until I run out of targets

Is this seriously possible?

That depends. How many actions do you have?

[UniqueLoginNamor]

Lend A Dino, and you've got 2n free attacks for 1 point, where n is the number of Big Figures you have in play.

If you have a Gert& Old Lace and deadman and possess and Gert and Old Lace, you can attack infintiy times.

[Perplexinator]

I would guess any pogs with the Avengers or JLA team ability could lead to infinite attacks since they don't count for your actions if they move.

[theclixster]

I would guess any pogs with the Avengers or JLA team ability could lead to infinite attacks since they don't count for your actions if they move.

JARVIS! JARVIS! JARVIS!

[Perplexinator]

Not that I can recall.

Now a fun one on the team above would be to play a figure with Inspiring Command and the appropriate team symbols to prevent the pogs from taking pushing damage.

Legendary Day?

edit: Again, too slow.

[Harpua]

edit: Again, too slow.
Yeah, but only by about two and half weeks.

:confused:



EDIT: BTW, you aren't forced to use the Willpower from Legendary Day.

[Suttkus]

You aren't forced to use Willpower, period. It's optional!

[xrobx]

I would guess any pogs with the Avengers or JLA team ability could lead to infinite attacks since they don't count for your actions if they move.

do pogs from the avengers set really have the avengers team ability? i always thought that's just the symbol showing what set they are from (avengers) not a team ability. when i look up jarvis on the heroclix.com gallery under team it says "no affiliation"

[normalview]

do pogs from the avengers set really have the avengers team ability? i always thought that's just the symbol showing what set they are from (avengers) not a team ability. when i look up jarvis on the heroclix.com gallery under team it says "no affiliation"

The old Jarvis bystander token, from the Marvel Adventure Pack (which also gave us MJ with Spidey TA, Alicia Masters with FF, etc), has the Avengers TA.

[xrobx]

The old Jarvis bystander token, from the Marvel Adventure Pack (which also gave use MJ with Spidey TA, Alicia Masters with FF, etc), has the Avengers TA.

okay, thanks. so nothing modern age would need to worry about.

[theclixster]

okay, thanks. so nothing modern age would need to worry about.

That is correct!!

[TheVagrantKing]

1. Golden Age tournaments can happen.

2. KO a figure with Mastermind and a horde of POGs across the board on turn 2? Possible, but your opponent would have to be pretty sloppy to let you access him. It's hard to see this happening.

The only balancing news is that it allows attacks and not full-fledged actions, so you have to have your shot lined up before you start KOing your POGs and taking that shot - over and over again.

A big balancing factor to this is that you'll still be limited by # of actions available. You're better off with IC Jarvis pogs.

[Terman8er]

As I have posted everywhere else:

Ult Thor
Big Figure
Rookie Mandroid Armor
Jarvis Pog (x8)
Mary-Jane Pog

300 points with 10 attacks in round two that can reach the entire map, see through stealth and attack with a 12/13 AV and a 5/6 DaV. NARSTY!

[rowesbud]

I'm thinking modern age here... would this roll?

Big Figure
Thorbuster
Wiccan
Pogs

When Thorbuster Pulse Waves, if he KOs 3 pogs, he can then take 3 free ranged combat attacks. Right? Not three more Pulse Waves.... but attacks.

[Questions]

I'm thinking modern age here... would this roll?

Big Figure
Thorbuster
Wiccan
Pogs

When Thorbuster Pulse Waves, if he KOs 3 pogs, he can then take 3 free ranged combat attacks. Right? Not three more Pulse Waves.... but attacks.

It is unclear whether there can be multiple retaliations or not. Harpua saying it is OK (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285987). nbperp previously saying it is not (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=279709).

[Jarimy123]

Not sure I'm seeing this anywhere:

If you have multiple Big Figures on your team, and a friendly figure dies, you can use both of their powers right?

So if I have a pog that dies, and 2 Big Figures on my team, I can then give a friendly on my team a ranged or close combat attack, then give a friendly on my team the same right?

[Harpua]

Sure thing

[Jarimy123]

Sick.

One more thing, I keep seeing people saying "errata is coming for Big Figure"

Is there any sort of proof/truth to that, or is it just gossip folks?

[Harpua]

Sick.

One more thing, I keep seeing people saying "errata is coming for Big Figure"

Is there any sort of proof/truth to that, or is it just gossip folks?

Nobody official has said anything publicly that I've heard.

[Jarimy123]

Cool. I figure just wait until something is officially announced, but if I can trick someone who knows stuff behind the scenes into slipping, worth a shot. Not you though Harpua, not you man!

[nbperp]

Cool. I figure just wait until something is officially announced, but if I can trick someone who knows stuff behind the scenes into slipping, worth a shot. Not you though Harpua, not you man!

He knows I'm watching him.

[Renard]

I'm thinking modern age here... would this roll?

Big Figure
Thorbuster
Wiccan
Pogs

When Thorbuster Pulse Waves, if he KOs 3 pogs, he can then take 3 free ranged combat attacks. Right? Not three more Pulse Waves.... but attacks.

Is it me or is it crazy SIF-like to go ahead and make a fig where the plan is to kill three of your own little pog buddies to make some overwhelming attacks in a turn. This makes me want to play 4 Barrier figs and just Barrier myself into a corner next to the starting area and roll off for the winner.

[Quebbster]

Is it me or is it crazy SIF-like to go ahead and make a fig where the plan is to kill three of your own little pog buddies to make some overwhelming attacks in a turn. This makes me want to play 4 Barrier figs and just Barrier myself into a corner next to the starting area and roll off for the winner.

Or just play Nightcrawler and kidnap Big figure. :)

[PONX]

Or just play Nightcrawler and kidnap Big figure. :)

LMAO..:laugh: nice...

[vlad3theimpaler]

I'm thinking modern age here... would this roll?

Big Figure
Thorbuster
Wiccan
Pogs

When Thorbuster Pulse Waves, if he KOs 3 pogs, he can then take 3 free ranged combat attacks. Right? Not three more Pulse Waves.... but attacks.

You'd have to have Thorbuster next to Big Figure to use his special power, but that means Big Figure would be in range of his pulse wave, and therefore his powers would be ignored, so no retaliation would occur.
edit: Nevermind. I could have sworn I saw the word "adjacent" in big figure's special power, but I've been up for 20 hours and my eyes are probably playing tricks on me.

You do have to leave Big Figure out of your pulse wave range in order to get the retaliation attacks, though.

[Harpua]

He knows I'm watching him.

Yeah, the "Harpua Archive" folder I found on your laptop at GenCon was a dead giveaway.

[Renard]

Or just play Nightcrawler and kidnap Big figure. :)

Ha well add Nightcrawler and Zenhattan in the broken category as well. I think these broken figures are doing what theme teams did when they were introduced (when they could also ignore a BFC), meaning they are drastically limiting the number of effective top class teams for competitive tournament play. That is sad. In the top 16 at Gencon this year there was a lot of variability in the teams. Unless DC 75th introduces Nightcrawler and Big Figure counters or they aren't errata'd (NC should be at least 125-130 pts), there isn't going to be too much variability in the future. :(
Zenhattan isn't normal broken, he's just probably unkillable if you don't bring psychic blast or exploit weakness. That's wrong. He can't move and attack so if you running shot psy blast you're exposing yourself to his attack. For him I'll just bring two barrier figs and barrier myself in a corner, since he doesn't have enough points to bring buddies to break one barrier so he can shoot. No one should be opposed to you just barriering yourself in a corner since anyone playing Zenhattan in 300 isn't trying to win either, they are just trying not to lose. I'll take a die roll-off for winner.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Zenhattan is going to plummet in value when people realize that he's not hald as effective as Thanos was.

[Renard]

Zenhattan is going to plummet in value when people realize that he's not hald as effective as Thanos was.

Well in a traditional sense Thanos is much better. But because it is extremely difficult to near impossible to kill Zenhattan without magic bullets, he is better against the average team. Thanos could be worn down with a good team, but he is very powerful and a rare 250+ pt fig worth his pts. Zenhattan I don't think can be worn down by the average team without psy blast, exploit, or pulse wave. He can't act 2 out of 3 turns like Thanos but like Thanos his powers can't be countered. I think >9 out of 10 games Zenhattan's player can just move his fig to the middle of the board and has no worry at all about multiple attacks targeting him every turn.

[vlad3theimpaler]

Zenhattan is going to plummet in value when people realize that he's not hald as effective as Thanos was.

Well in a traditional sense Thanos is much better. But because it is extremely difficult to near impossible to kill Zenhattan without magic bullets, he is better against the average team. Thanos could be worn down with a good team, but he is very powerful and a rare 250+ pt fig worth his pts. Zenhattan I don't think can be worn down by the average team without psy blast, exploit, or pulse wave. He can't act 2 out of 3 turns like Thanos but like Thanos his powers can't be countered. I think >9 out of 10 games Zenhattan's player can just move his fig to the middle of the board and has no worry at all about multiple attacks targeting him every turn.

I think that Zenhattan is getting a lot of his hype do to an over reliance on outwit by some players. As Renard already pointed out, psychic blast, exploit weakness, and the almighty pulse wave can take him out. Or special powers that do penetrating damage. His effectiveness will really depend upon what he's up against. And I really don't think he'll be able to reach the same levels of absurdity as Big Figure, but only time will tell.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

Astute observation about Outwit. I do not use it as a catch-all, and I generally have stealth and/or some sort of penetrating damage on board, or a Shield Disruptor.

As I said somewhere (this thread?) I think he's nasty against a random casual theme that isn't expecting him, but in competitie play, the move-and-attack will kill him, if only slowly.

[acid_jazz]

Sorry if this has been asked, and it might seem kinda basic but as I read the power of Big Fig, it states that you can "make a close combat ATTACK or range combat ATTACK as a free action".

So does that mean powers that state "give this character a close/ranged combat ACTION" would be ineligible for Big Figure's SP?

In other words can a character use say, Psychic Blast as part of "This place is gonna Explode " SP?

[necrodog]

You are getting a straight-up attack. Anything that requires you to give this figure a power/ranged combat/close combat/move action to activate would be inelligible to use.

[brevard321]

You are getting a straight-up attack. Anything that requires you to give this figure a power/ranged combat/close combat/move action to activate would be inelligible to use.

Darn! That ruins my idea for an all Big Figure/Jonah Hex cheese team!

Curses, foiled again!

:p

But seriously, I still don't think there needs to be an errata on Big Figure.

Eventually, more and more combinations will come up to thwart Big Figure's power.

I don't think it is a figure that someone will use every single week at their local venue. But we will soon see, especially as more Cosmic Spider-Man's are pulled out of boosters.

[ThorKnigh83]

the thing that makes him more beastly in modern age is if I win map choice I choose the graveyard map and put him in an orange square so your outwit would be nothing to me. also it would prevent him from being hit by pulse wave and even if hes in range could still activate his free attack. nasty nasty

[doctor_x]

So this is another figure that WizKids should have made unique and dropped the ball.


Thanks WizKids.


RETIRE ALL BYSTANDER POGS NOW.

[Jarimy123]

Yea match choice is great with him, too bad you will rarely see a Brute keyword themed team, especially if you want to really abuse his power.

[Quebbster]

Yea match choice is great with him, too bad you will rarely see a Brute keyword themed team, especially if you want to really abuse his power.
Brute is a fun keyword. BF just makes it better. :)
Just start with Thing and Big Figure... can't really go wrong then. :)

[Jarimy123]

Yea I could see that working actually.


RE: Pogs - Seems like they are being phased out as we speak

[rowesbud]

So this is another figure that WizKids should have made unique and dropped the ball.


Thanks WizKids.


RETIRE ALL BYSTANDER POGS NOW.

I would second this.

A lot of "broken" strategies and downright unthematic play options would go away if Pogs were nixed in Modern. Might have to house rule it...

[Thrumble Funk]

With characters like Big Figure, who only really appeared with his two goons, I'd be cool with such uber powers being usable only when paired with certain figures. Like if "This Place Is Gonna Explode" was usable only when the goons (Larry & Mike?) were offed, problem solved.

Too restrictive? Make it usable only when a character with the words Thug, Burglar, Henchman, etc., in their name are offed. Still versatile, but without the annoyance of BF and 20 Lian Harpers.

[Gentlegamer]

With characters like Big Figure, who only really appeared with his two goons, I'd be cool with such uber powers being usable only when paired with certain figures. Like if "This Place Is Gonna Explode" was usable only when the goons (Larry & Mike?) were offed, problem solved.

Too restrictive? Make it usable only when a character with the words Thug, Burglar, Henchman, etc., in their name are offed. Still versatile, but without the annoyance of BF and 20 Lian Harpers.Get outta here with all your sense-making and reasonableness.

[Thrumble Funk]

Zenhattan is going to plummet in value when people realize that he's not hald as effective as Thanos was.

Eh, people seem to love their high point value clix. I think he'll stay pretty solid.

[doctor_x]

With characters like Big Figure, who only really appeared with his two goons, I'd be cool with such uber powers being usable only when paired with certain figures. Like if "This Place Is Gonna Explode" was usable only when the goons (Larry & Mike?) were offed, problem solved.

Too restrictive? Make it usable only when a character with the words Thug, Burglar, Henchman, etc., in their name are offed. Still versatile, but without the annoyance of BF and 20 Lian Harpers.



Yeah, I really question wether Big Figure was even playtested.

[macewyndu]

Okay, I'm to lazy to read thru this post. But mine question is.

1. Iron man KO 2 figures that are adjacent to Big Figure, does the opponent get to make 2 attacks for each KO figure or is limit to one attack per action, no matter how many you KO?

Ex Iron man KO 2 bystanders token that adjacent to BIG FIGURE with EE. Thor get 2 attacks.

I hope you guys understand.

[Trader2699]

Okay, I'm to lazy to read thru this post...

Okay, I'm too lazy to answer your question.

[Jarimy123]

I don't question that Big Figure was playtested, I just believe the people that playtest this game don't really have a firm grasp on competitive play.

They really should ring in a group of high level competitive players and have them do some testing as well.

[Questions]

Okay, I'm to lazy to read thru this post. But mine question is.

1. Iron man KO 2 figures that are adjacent to Big Figure, does the opponent get to make 2 attacks for each KO figure or is limit to one attack per action, no matter how many you KO?

Ex Iron man KO 2 bystanders token that adjacent to BIG FIGURE with EE. Thor get 2 attacks.

I hope you guys understand.

Your question is discussed in the thread.

[Thrumble Funk]

They really should ring in a group of high level competitive players and have them do some testing as well.

Yep. That's kinda what playtesting should always be. Root out the loopholes by using testers who have a natural knack for exploiting them.

[Puuka]

Your question is discussed in the thread.

Best answer for this.

[spiderknyt]

My question is this:

When you say "defeated", does it mean that an opposing character should be the one KOing the figure?

or does "defeated" mean simply being KOed?

because there are rules when they say "when the character is KOed..."

[Jarimy123]

It simply means KO'd. so you can push a figure/pog to death on your own in order to trigger the power. That could change though with supposed errata.

[Questions]

And for the definition of defeated....

From the Blackest Night Glossary:
DEFEATED: A character that is knocked out and removed from the game.

[Renard]

Okay, I'm to lazy to read thru this post. But mine question is.

1. Iron man KO 2 figures that are adjacent to Big Figure, does the opponent get to make 2 attacks for each KO figure or is limit to one attack per action, no matter how many you KO?

Ex Iron man KO 2 bystanders token that adjacent to BIG FIGURE with EE. Thor get 2 attacks.

I hope you guys understand.

I think I read somewhere Norm said that if Iron Man EE killed two pogs as of now it would be one free attack, but that it's under review.

[eliotblacknigh]

posting for future reference...:p




after using big figure yesterday with my friends, all my old school dusty figure with less play are back in action.....:p



same formula using big F & army of jarvis(pog)


-lockjaw(v)...is amazing!
-kryto(u)....let him howl!
-pack(v)...pack m3!
-SENTINEL...run mutants!
-and my favorite...FOOM!

[macewyndu]

I think I read somewhere Norm said that if Iron Man EE killed two pogs as of now it would be one free attack, but that it's under review.

Thank you for your kindness of answering my question. And not giving me smart alec comment. I appreciate a straight forward answer.

[jak7890]

Thank you for your kindness of answering my question. And not giving me smart alec comment. I appreciate a straight forward answer.

To be fair, what you did was pretty inconsiderate. This thread's long enough without you bogging it down with repetition, especially since you could have just done a search by post in the rules forum... or, you know, take the extra 5 minutes to just skim until you found the answer like the rest of us.

If you're too lazy to read the thread, then you probably don't care that much about the answer. Why should I waste my time when you were unwilling to spend yours?

[PISCEAN]

We tested out Big Figure today and we didn't even use a team of pogs.

He needs to be errata'd.

I would suggest that his power allow ONE free attack per turn. So if you push a pog to death you get ONE free action attack and when your opponent kills one of your figures you get ONE free action attack. The key here is that the attack is a FREE ACTION. This is incredibly powerful. It means that your Superman with 2 action tokens can make a free attack. If there is no limit this is one of the most broken powers I have ever seen and it will indeed reduce the competitive metagame to teams that either abuse Big Figure or try to deal with Big Figure. If limited to once a turn it is still a powerful and very useful ability but FAR LESS open to gratuitous abuse.

Actually, I would probably prefer that the power specify that the free action attack happens "When a friendly figure is KO'd by an opposing figure" to avoid the whole push an army of pogs to death strategy.

Either way it needs to be balanced because if left as is, it will definitely have a negative impact on the game.

As for Dr Manhattan I would not say he is broken but he is easily one of the most powerful figures ever created. A player has a few methods at his disposal to deal with Manhattan such as Incap, Pulse Wave, Psychic Blast and Mystics TA but that said, the ability to avoid all damage 66% percent of the time with one ability and a 33% percent with yet another evasion ability is a holy terror. Add PC to the mix and it's a nightmare dial. Luckily he only has that combo for 2 clicks. The only reason he will have minimal impact on 300 point official tournaments is his 276 pt cost. He is probably the most deadly figure I've seen without move and attack except for Crisis Darkseid. Yes Thanos is a very powerful Psychic Blaster but he is still limited to one Impervious roll with a normal 33% chance of evasion. Manahttan has that beat.

[UltraSuperGuy]

If Big Figure was errata'ed to only happening on a KO via your opponent I would be okay with it, he'd still be an unbelievable fig though (and he would see a lot of use with the Green Lantern TA).

I remember when I first read Big Fig's special power months ago and I was like "what, he doesn't need to be adjacent to the figure getting the free attack?!? He doesn't even need line of sight?!? It's not limited to your opponent's turn?!? This pretty much breaks the game, here."

I know a lot of people on Realms think Seth is a great dial designer and all but to me it felt like exhibit #3,263 that he has no clue how the game is played based on his dial designs. How anyone could miss the implications of that special power is beyond me.

[Quebbster]

I know a lot of people on Realms think Seth is a great dial designer and all but to me it felt like exhibit #3,263 that he has no clue how the game is played based on his dial designs.
Just curious: Could you name a few of the other 3262?

[UltraSuperGuy]

Just curious: Could you name a few of the other 3262?

Too many to name. Parallax. The Hound. Soooo, sooo many figs with Force Blast for no reason, sooooo sooo many figs with the better AV on the second click, soooo sooooo many figs with unnecessary power combinations that either didn't work together or occurred late in the dial driving up the cost of the figure.

And quite a few players who left the game right when he started around Armor Wars because of the 9AV/17DV lameness that persisted for several sets. I wouldn't normally beat a dead horse but the guy raised his lame head again with The Watchmen set so I felt like venting.

Big Figure feels like his masterpiece in terms of stupidity.

[nbperp]

I'm not going to get into a "lamb-baste the designer" debate, but I will point out that (a) in a collectible game with a myriad of mechanics, there should be an ebb and flow of powers showing up on dials, (b) that one mans garbage is another mans gold - I know of many players who like the simplicity of the 9/17 figures and that (c) ultimately, someone is going to hate on anything that's done. Browse through the Dreams/Desires forum and see how man people design a dial and it is followed by 100 posts of "man, you nailed it, I wouldn't change a thing."

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

[Quebbster]

Too many to name. Parallax. The Hound. Soooo, sooo many figs with Force Blast for no reason, sooooo sooo many figs with the better AV on the second click, soooo sooooo many figs with unnecessary power combinations that either didn't work together or occurred late in the dial driving up the cost of the figure.

And quite a few players who left the game right when he started around Armor Wars because of the 9AV/17DV lameness that persisted for several sets. I wouldn't normally beat a dead horse but the guy raised his lame head again with The Watchmen set so I felt like venting.

Big Figure feels like his masterpiece in terms of stupidity.
A lot of the stuff you mention is stuff I happen to like. :)
Well, not Parallax or the Hound.

[Harpua]

Okay, I'm too lazy to answer your question.

Your question is discussed in the thread.

Best answer for this.

To be fair, what you did was pretty inconsiderate. This thread's long enough without you bogging it down with repetition, especially since you could have just done a search by post in the rules forum... or, you know, take the extra 5 minutes to just skim until you found the answer like the rest of us.

If you're too lazy to read the thread, then you probably don't care that much about the answer. Why should I waste my time when you were unwilling to spend yours?

Reps given where I could.

[CBOWEN333]

Just off the top of my butt I was thinkin:
Old school ranged stealth seems like it would be pretty effective
Has anyone considered a Black lantern in the mix?
Protect the innocent
Doctor strange
Mind Control
Micron+Ultimates/Supes- give out tk and rip the midgit outta his hidey hole
Multiple Nightshades with plenty of barrier coverage eats pogs with little retaliation
I'm tired and trying to come up with random scenarios. My point is that he is by no means unbeatable. Annoying? Very. Unbeatable? Not at all.

Ooh got somethin- Vet Ultron with some perplex to the range kicks the pog hordes cardboard rumps and can still punch holes in the bigger fellas comin to shut him down.
That's the answer, triple EE plus 15 range. Take that ya little troll
Everyone knows the easiest way to best a midgit is to escape his reach. So simple!

[garbidge]

If big figure is mind controlled into killing one of his entourage, which side gets the bonus attack?

[Quebbster]

If big figure is mind controlled into killing one of his entourage, which side gets the bonus attack?

Neither. The character was not friendly to BF when KOed.

[RedDragon]

I'm not going to get into a "lamb-baste the designer" debate, but I will point out that (a) in a collectible game with a myriad of mechanics, there should be an ebb and flow of powers showing up on dials, (b) that one mans garbage is another mans gold - I know of many players who like the simplicity of the 9/17 figures and that (c) ultimately, someone is going to hate on anything that's done. Browse through the Dreams/Desires forum and see how man people design a dial and it is followed by 100 posts of "man, you nailed it, I wouldn't change a thing."

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

no!!!!!!! don't you dare touch my watchmen. who watches the watchmen? cry babies thats who. i like him the way he is LOL. this where you want to be when god comes back? picking on a little person? LOL

[Thrumble Funk]

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

Good. ::filler::

[rowesbud]

I'm not going to get into a "lamb-baste the designer" debate, but I will point out that (a) in a collectible game with a myriad of mechanics, there should be an ebb and flow of powers showing up on dials, (b) that one mans garbage is another mans gold - I know of many players who like the simplicity of the 9/17 figures and that (c) ultimately, someone is going to hate on anything that's done. Browse through the Dreams/Desires forum and see how man people design a dial and it is followed by 100 posts of "man, you nailed it, I wouldn't change a thing."

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

Oh noes! BF is about to get f'ed in the B!

The abusable connection here is pogs. Seriously. Just make pogs illegal in Modern! Come oooon. Think about how many new game mechanics would be possible if you knew players would be spending at least 15 points and several clicks of life for a character. Leave BF alone! Abolish pogs in modern!

[Quebbster]

Oh noes! BF is about to get f'ed in the B!

The abusable connection here is pogs. Seriously. Just make pogs illegal in Modern! Come oooon. Think about how many new game mechanics would be possible if you knew players would be spending at least 15 points and several clicks of life for a character. Leave BF alone! Abolish pogs in modern!
Yes. Let the only way to round out a team be special objects. Fabulous idea.

[Thrumble Funk]

Oh noes! BF is about to get f'ed in the B!

The abusable connection here is pogs. Seriously. Just make pogs illegal in Modern! Come oooon. Think about how many new game mechanics would be possible if you knew players would be spending at least 15 points and several clicks of life for a character. Leave BF alone! Abolish pogs in modern!

Not really. He could do some severe damage with a number of generics as well.

-Checkmate (Battlefield Promotion would be WAY less of a problem)
-Amazons
-Hand Ninjas

That's off the top of my head.

Dude needs to be errata'ed to make him more of a piece to help "bad guys" and less of a "z0mg i can haz token midget for GenCon" piece.

[Jarimy123]

The problem isn't just pogs. Do pogs enhance his power to the max? Sure. But his power makes your opponent not want to attack any of your figures - especially when you are just rushing in 3 click figures to tie them up. Go ahead, kill my figures please. It completely turns the game upside down.

[sol]

I need to hurry up and play him broken style, since Norm has confirmed the errata! lol.

[Jarimy123]

Hahaha yea me too. I got 4 of them. Better trade them off quick!

[UniqueLoginNamor]

I need to hurry up and play him broken style, since Norm has confirmed the errata! lol.

Amen, amen

[UltraSuperGuy]

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

Coolness, hopefully it will be enough to bring him down to a level that isn't game-breaking.

There's a certain BAMFing figure from WOS that could use a little errata too............ (ducks and hides)

[Jarimy123]

There's a certain BAMFing figure from WOS that could use a little errata too............ (ducks and hides)

If he does need errata, which he doesn't, it's not even close to the level of broken that Big Figure currently is.

[hclixinarcadia]

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

There is a big tournament tomorrow (Wednesday) and a couple of people have voiced their concern over Big Figure making an appearance.

What do you recommend? Will errata be out by tomorrow? Should we ban Big Figure? Limit the number of BSTs?

It's kinda cool how a little itty bitty 49-pt figure with 4 clix of life is causing such a commotion.

[UltraSuperGuy]

If he does need errata, which he doesn't, it's not even close to the level of broken that Big Figure currently is.

Agreed, but NC is pretty outrageous for his point value and his ability to carry an opponent's fig.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Even if Big Figure didn't have the broken power he'd still be remarkably good for the points. No one seems to mention that he has dual perplex and outwit, and a mega-mastermind power.

[Thrumble Funk]

Even if Big Figure didn't have the broken power he'd still be remarkably good for the points. No one seems to mention that he has dual perplex and outwit, and a mega-mastermind power.

Bearing in mind that I know pretty much nothing about the character, might make a good Oberon mod?

[Questions]

Agreed, but NC is pretty outrageous for his point value and his ability to carry an opponent's fig.

And it's even better than the Carry ability since it isn't the Carry ability and can be done to :m-wing:, etc.

Even if Big Figure didn't have the broken power he'd still be remarkably good for the points. No one seems to mention that he has dual perplex and outwit, and a mega-mastermind power.

What is dual Perplex and Outwit?

[Amora's_best_friend]

What is dual Perplex and Outwit?

...

What is says on the tin. [Perhaps I should have said dual perplex or outwit.]

[Questions]

...

What is says on the tin. [Perhaps I should have said dual perplex or outwit.]

Sounds like hype. :) (Is it dual because he has a choice?)

[Jarimy123]

He's alright without the power - but I'd rather spend 14 more points for Chief. He doesn't have dual perplex/outwit like Chief actually has. He can choose one or the other. He's not close to Chief's level if you take the power away. And their TA's are not even close.

[vlad3theimpaler]

Oh noes! BF is about to get f'ed in the B!

The abusable connection here is pogs. Seriously. Just make pogs illegal in Modern! Come oooon. Think about how many new game mechanics would be possible if you knew players would be spending at least 15 points and several clicks of life for a character. Leave BF alone! Abolish pogs in modern!

I really don't understand why I've seen several posts suggesting getting rid of bystanders lately. Especially since NECA hasn't produced a single tournament legal bystander, despite saying at one point that they were going to continue making them. And this discussion about getting rid of pogs seems to center on modern age, which is really weird to me, because it's not like you can whip out 15 Lian Harpers or anything like that in Modern. The cheapest pog in modern age is 5 points. (6 way tie among Lois Lane, Duane Freeman, Kat Farrell, Everett K. Ross, Edwin Jarvis, and Jarella.) And it's not like any one of those is particularly game-breaking. Heck, we have several pogs that are MORE points than 3-figures; Nurse from Web of Spider-Man is only 10 points, and there are bystanders that are up to 15 (Congo Bill/Congorilla for one.) We already don't have feats in Modern Age, without bystanders either, it would be difficult to round out your teams.

[Renard]

I'm not going to get into a "lamb-baste the designer" debate, but I will point out that (a) in a collectible game with a myriad of mechanics, there should be an ebb and flow of powers showing up on dials, (b) that one mans garbage is another mans gold - I know of many players who like the simplicity of the 9/17 figures and that (c) ultimately, someone is going to hate on anything that's done. Browse through the Dreams/Desires forum and see how man people design a dial and it is followed by 100 posts of "man, you nailed it, I wouldn't change a thing."

As for Big Fig, errata IS coming. I don't know what it is yet, but rest assured, something is coming.

Yes Norm is right, let's rag on the designer is something that doesn't make a lot of sense. For example I cannot tell you how many posts I've read that say 'oh Kelly Bonilla she's terrible, power creep, etc.'
But then do a quick poll and people's favorite sets and...surprise surprise Kelly-designed Hammer of Thor seems to be the most popular of the recent sets. A lot of people love Hammer of Thor and so they point to Brave and the Bold as terrible in comparison. But look closer at BatB, there's at least two dozen good playable figs and that's not even including the duos which are all pretty good and the chases are great.
But I will disagree with the 9/17 idea as standard. The average attack to hit needs to be a 7. At 7 you hit 58.3% of the time as opposed to 41.7% of the time needing an 8. I remember sealed events like Avengers where you just attack miss, your opponent attacks misses, you then attack miss, etc. Without prob or perplex or any powers, it should be 7. That way generally you hit 3 out of 5 attacks rather than 2 out of 5. Missing, clearing, missing, clearing, missing, clearing is not the way to go.
BatB Superman is a good example of this. His 9 attack kills him. Is he terrible like some say? No. He has great damage, great defense, great move, etc. But in that point cost you need probably a minimum 11 attack to be competitive or a 10 attack to be playable. Play a match of two BatbB Supermen one on one and it will be pretty un-Superman-like. They need a 9 (27.8%) to hit each other.
Superman should not need double perplex or perplex + prob as a minimum to be playable. People might disagree, and I've actually defended this Superman to others who say he is garbage. But you just cannot plan your strategy, move up and HSS attack and just keep missing for 216 pts.

[Jarimy123]

Take the duos out of BATB and replace them with playable figs, and the set becomes the DC version of HoT

[Renard]

If he does need errata, which he doesn't, it's not even close to the level of broken that Big Figure currently is.

IMO in Modern Age 300 pts Nightcrawler is a lot more broken than Big Figure. But to survive against a Big Figure I team I agree sadly you would have to build a counter Big Figure team, and I don't think any one piece should demand a counter team to just be able to survive.
But NC might be so broken that a team featuring him might only be bothered by another NC team who does different things.
It's the same with Zenhattan. If you don't have Psy Blast, Exploit, or Pulse Wave in your team it's probably close to impossible for you to KO him in 300. Even then if you have one fig with that power they won't kill Zenhattan and then he gets to shoot them after they shoot at him. He might not kill anyone either, with no move and attack and no Indomitable but it will definitely be extremely hard to KO him. Too many improbable things have to fall into place to normally KO him.

[Renard]

Take the duos out of BATB and replace them with playable figs, and the set becomes the DC version of HoT

:)
at least Bat/Cat can move and duo attack.

[Jarimy123]

Yea I mean Bats/Cats are alright, but such a glass jaw. Shazaam/Black Adam are only useable because you can single them. Mr. Miracle/Oberon seem like they should work, but IMO they just don't. they are an extremely good tie-up piece, but a tie-up piece shouldn't cost that much.

Anyway hahaha, rant off. BATB just gets a bad rap becase of all the duos. Drop those and you have a set with some extremely playable figures.

I still think Big Figure trumps NC in terms of broken. He's warbound on crank. It's almost insane to think that it was allowed to be worded the way it is.

[Renard]

Yea I mean Bats/Cats are alright, but such a glass jaw. Shazaam/Black Adam are only useable because you can single them. Mr. Miracle/Oberon seem like they should work, but IMO they just don't. they are an extremely good tie-up piece, but a tie-up piece shouldn't cost that much.

Anyway hahaha, rant off. BATB just gets a bad rap becase of all the duos. Drop those and you have a set with some extremely playable figures.

I still think Big Figure trumps NC in terms of broken. He's warbound on crank. It's almost insane to think that it was allowed to be worded the way it is.

Ya duos are a difficult play to be sure, with not being able to TK peanut bases and their incompatibility problem (duo attack + regular powers). I agree Mister Miracle/Oberon costs too much but is decent. I'm looking at Venom at 73 pts from HOT as my max for tie up, but he's gone out the window with 38 pt Ben Reilly AE'd to Scarlet Spider (or even Ben Reilly by himself). Ok maybe not all the way out the window lol, Venom's pretty good.
I wish duos were better, I think Bat/Cat is a great step in the right direction. And they are one of the best sculpts ever.
Big Figure don't get me wrong is absolutely broken. However you can only make a free close or ranged combat attack so really you are looking at staying outside max range of the shooters. If you are in stealth and they can't bust it even better. But it's like I said, now I'm having to design a team that is stealthed or has sufficient move and attack to attack where if I kill someone my positioning protects me from reprisal. And this doesn't even address the whole pushing pogs to death on the phone booth then free attack problem. So in other words I'm trying to design a whole team to protect me from a 49 pt piece which is wrong. ;)
But NC I still think you can do everything possible right and he can still beat you.

[nbperp]

There is a big tournament tomorrow (Wednesday) and a couple of people have voiced their concern over Big Figure making an appearance.

What do you recommend? Will errata be out by tomorrow? Should we ban Big Figure? Limit the number of BSTs?

It's kinda cool how a little itty bitty 49-pt figure with 4 clix of life is causing such a commotion.

There is a 0% chance of errata being issued by tomorrow.

What do I recommend? I recommend your venue's judge be told "hey, WK has indicated this fig is going to be errata'd - are you going to let the figure stand as is until it's errata'd or are you going to implement your own errata that you think balances the figure until they come up with an official one?"

[hclixinarcadia]

There is a 0% chance of errata being issued by tomorrow.

What do I recommend? I recommend your venue's judge be told "hey, WK has indicated this fig is going to be errata'd - are you going to let the figure stand as is until it's errata'd or are you going to implement your own errata that you think balances the figure until they come up with an official one?"

Thanks Norm. A resolution was reached by the judge: no figures from Watchmen and WoS for tomorrow.

[sol]

There is a 0% chance of errata being issued by tomorrow.

What do I recommend? I recommend your venue's judge be told "hey, WK has indicated this fig is going to be errata'd - are you going to let the figure stand as is until it's errata'd or are you going to implement your own errata that you think balances the figure until they come up with an official one?"

That's pretty lame.

What you should have recommended was 'wait for an errata, til then my hands are tied'. ;)

[shwa96]

I don't see what the big deal is. If someone brings the Pog army...

Energy Explosion
Pulse Wave
Quake

If you KO them all at the same time, your opponent only gets 1 attack.

There should probably be an errata saying that KOs from pushing damage don't trigger the power. Otherwise, forget about 3 free attacks from pushing Lian. Drop 60 points on a bunch of Jarvis Pogs. Toss a beat stick with good range onto the other side of the map and then take 15 free ranged attacks. 2 round match.

I wouldn't make it so that it only works on the opponent's turn though, because there are situations where it should be triggered on your turn. Mystics damage for one. I think that could make for a fun game when a Mystics figure is running for dear life from an army of suicidal Pogs. Also, damage from a critical miss. It'll be the one time you'll ever see a player hoping for snake eyes.

Just make it so players can't push something to death to get extra attacks.

[Questions]

If you KO them all at the same time, your opponent only gets 1 attack.

It was never clear if that was the rule or not. It might have been the rule, it might not have been. An errata is coming, though, so it will likely clear up that issue.

[Infinity Gauntlet]

Just make it only work on opposing team's turn. No pushing damage will activate said power.

But please do not totally nerf the big .... I mean the little guy:(. He is/was one of the figures that I believed brought value to the set.

[ChiRocker]

There is a lot to read here, and I have a read a few pages and didn't see this question, so please humor me if this has been asked already, but what happens if you have 5 Big Figures, 1 Cosmic Spidey, and 9 Jarvis Pogs on a team, and you push 1 Jarvis Pog to death (or he is legitimately killed)? Do you get 1 free attack immediately, or 5?

[Questions]

There is a lot to read here, and I have a read a few pages and didn't see this question, so please humor me if this has been asked already, but what happens if you have 5 Big Figures, 1 Cosmic Spidey, and 9 Jarvis Pogs on a team, and you push 1 Jarvis Pog to death (or he is legitimately killed)? Do you get 1 free attack immediately, or 5?

I hesitate to answer since there is an errata coming. At this time, we should probably just wait for the errata and go from there.

[brevard321]

I for one will be upset if there is an errata made, just because the players THINK there should be.

If NECA/WK designs and produces a figure, that figure should be played the way it was designed. Even if they come out now and say they made a mistake on the special power, I won't believe it. Any errata will just be confirmation that they won't stick to their guns on how the figures are designed.

In my opinion, Big Figure was designed to play exactly as it is written. Not once per turn, not only when an opponent KO's your figure, but exactly as written.

We play the game, but it is not OUR game. We don't make it. We spend money on it, but we don't CONTROL it.

It's kind of like the Twilight thing. You may not want them to ever make a Twilight action pack, but if they do, the only thing you can do about it, is not buy it.

I just don't see the complaints about Big Figure, when Heroclix players have been abusing cheese for years, from Firelord to KC Green Lantern with Trick Shot, to Icons Vet Superman, to Ultimates Thor, to Out of the Shadows Batman, to Skrull Ms. Marvel, all the way now to WOS Nightcrawler and beyond.

For 49 points, Big Figure is hyper-efficient, but so are so many of the other figures in the game. For every Abomination, there is a HOT Captain America.

I just don't see the issue with Big Figure, and I will be very dissapointed in an errata that just appears out of nowhere, based soley on consumer complaints.

[Gentlegamer]

The players discover what the designers do not.

[Surfer13]

There is a lot to read here, and I have a read a few pages and didn't see this question, so please humor me if this has been asked already, but what happens if you have 5 Big Figures, 1 Cosmic Spidey, and 9 Jarvis Pogs on a team, and you push 1 Jarvis Pog to death (or he is legitimately killed)? Do you get 1 free attack immediately, or 5?

The different Big Figures are all their own piece with their own powers.

As it is, I would have a hard time saying that they would only get one attack.

That being said, my pre-emptive errata would be that the attack can only be granted if your opponent defeats the character, and that it would only trigger once no matter how many characters were KOed by a single action.
If there were multiple Big Figures then each would get to activate the power, but if 5 Jarvi were taken out in a single pulse wave or EE, a single instance of the power would not trigger 5 times.

Just my take until something official comes along.

[ChiRocker]

I for one will be upset if there is an errata made, just because the players THINK there should be.

If NECA/WK designs and produces a figure, that figure should be played the way it was designed. Even if they come out now and say they made a mistake on the special power, I won't believe it. Any errata will just be confirmation that they won't stick to their guns on how the figures are designed.

In my opinion, Big Figure was designed to play exactly as it is written. Not once per turn, not only when an opponent KO's your figure, but exactly as written.

We play the game, but it is not OUR game. We don't make it. We spend money on it, but we don't CONTROL it.

It's kind of like the Twilight thing. You may not want them to ever make a Twilight action pack, but if they do, the only thing you can do about it, is not buy it.

I just don't see the complaints about Big Figure, when Heroclix players have been abusing cheese for years, from Firelord to KC Green Lantern with Trick Shot, to Icons Vet Superman, to Ultimates Thor, to Out of the Shadows Batman, to Skrull Ms. Marvel, all the way now to WOS Nightcrawler and beyond.

For 49 points, Big Figure is hyper-efficient, but so are so many of the other figures in the game. For every Abomination, there is a HOT Captain America.

I just don't see the issue with Big Figure, and I will be very dissapointed in an errata that just appears out of nowhere, based soley on consumer complaints.

You don't see why Cosmic Spidey shouldn't make 46 attacks in 1 turn?

[brevard321]

The players discover what the designers do not.

But if there is nothing meant to discover?

If the designers wanted Big Figure to act AS WRITTEN, but are now facing all this pressure to errata it, they probably will.

I thought the Power Girl errata was bad, but this will really prove that no dial is concrete until the players say it is acceptable.

And I believe that is a horrible precedent. :(

[Thrumble Funk]

But if there is nothing meant to discover?

If the designers wanted Big Figure to act AS WRITTEN, but are now facing all this pressure to errata it, they probably will.

I thought the Power Girl errata was bad, but this will really prove that no dial is concrete until the players say it is acceptable.

And I believe that is a horrible precedent. :(

So...you honestly can't see how/why the complaints might be justified in this case?

Nightcrawler is arguable, but Big Figure seems a bit too cut and dried to me. He's ridiculously abusable, and low-cost enough to be a meta-creating/changing piece.

[Gentlegamer]

But if there is nothing meant to discover?

If the designers wanted Big Figure to act AS WRITTEN, but are now facing all this pressure to errata it, they probably will.

I thought the Power Girl errata was bad, but this will really prove that no dial is concrete until the players say it is acceptable.

And I believe that is a horrible precedent. :(The game is always changing when the players are involved, and the rules are changed with it. This has been happening throughout the history of HeroClix. You're a little too late on placing the "dangerous" precedent, since the mega change to HeroClix happened with IndyClix.

Since then, there has been a continual refinement of the rules, appropriately based on player feedback and actual game-play that taxes the game system in ways the designer did not anticipate. From NAAT, FCCF, Rule of Three, Pulse Wave must target an opposing character, Support 1d6-2, HSS half range attacks, to SIF not affecting Barrier tokens (etc), the game rules are tweaked for balance.

We are in a new era where characters may have wholly unique abilities, so it is to be expected that some of these abilities will be poorly worded and have unintended negative consequences that need to be specifically "errata'ed."

In a game system with many "moving parts," the design team should always be taking feedback from the players. This is what keeps the game from completely degenerating when "exploits" are found. A game that seeks to have a truly "competitive" nature must both anticipate and react to the way the game is actually played, and ask if that is what is best for the game as a whole.

For example, it is no accident that StarCraft became a legitimate professional video game. Blizzard continued to patch and tweak that game for years after release for balance. If HeroClix aspires to even a fraction of that game's polished competitiveness, the designers must accept feedback and act on it when appropriate.

[brevard321]

If anything, I think that Spider-Man's line of fire power is the real problem.

Pieces like Captain America and Susan Richards have been complained about, and then they make a piece like CS whose line of fire is never blocked?

That's the abusable part of the equation. The fact that there is no terrain feature which can even try to protect you from the free attacks is the real problem.

And if we really have a self-policing gaming community like everyone says we have, no one will play BFCSJP every week, so I don't really see what the problem is.

Of course BFCSJP stands for Big Figure/Cosmic Spider-Man/Jarvis Pogs.

And if someone plays a thematical team with Big Figure and Watchmen thugs, no one would say a word about how broken Big Figure is.

The problem is Spider-Man, so if anything, that piece needs an errata!

[Rurouni KJS]

I just don't see the complaints about Big Figure, when Heroclix players have been abusing cheese for years, from Firelord to KC Green Lantern with Trick Shot, to Icons Vet Superman, to Ultimates Thor, to Out of the Shadows Batman, to Skrull Ms. Marvel, all the way now to WOS Nightcrawler and beyond.

I just don't see the issue with Big Figure, and I will be very dissapointed in an errata that just appears out of nowhere, based soley on consumer complaints.

It's not out of nowhere. It's a legitimate game-balance issue. None of those other cheese tactics have anywhere near the same potential to break a game as the Big Figure one does, as currently written.

Some precedents along the same line as this potential errata:

Telephone Booth. Before, players could potentially use it to go straight to a character's sweet click(s).
Invigorate. No one could decide whether, as originally written, it was supposed to remove a token before or after any tokenable action (a massively powerful effect) or not (useless, useless, useless). So it got a complete rewrite.

Big Figure's :a-fist: SP should get an errata. Being able to attack during an enemy's turn is a super effect without the abusable pog tactic on top of it.

[brevard321]

Gentelgamer, refining the rules over a long period of time is much different than a heavy-handed errata when the figure's dial has been known for a while now.

Look how long it took to make a change to Thunderbolts or SIF, those were abused for years.

I think the game should evolve naturally, and there should be gamer interaction to help guide those changes, but not something like this. Not this outcry that demands an errata.

The great thing about Heroclix is there are basically no banned pieces. If you own it, you can play it.

Wouldn't you say that changing Big Figure's power is wrong for those people who bought the Watchmen set or the Big Figure single soley for that power.

Wouldn't that almost be deceptive advertising to change the set's dials AFTER they are released?

Here, buy this set because there are some neat figures and good dials inside!

Uh oh, that dial was too good, so yeah, sorry, you can't use it like THAT any more.

Why aren't we crying for an errata on Cosmic Spider-Man, Zen Manhattan, or Nightcrawler (well some people are)?

Why not a change in the rules that says

"Bystander Tokens are never defeated, they are removed from play, and are awarded points AS IF they were defeated, but they are NOT defeated."

Wouldn't that solve the problem? :)

[brevard321]

Big Figure's :a-fist: SP should get an errata. Being able to attack during an enemy's turn is a super effect without the abusable pog tactic on top of it.

But Rurouni, that's the point! They designed it so you could get a free attack on the opponent during their turn. This Place is Going to Explode!

They did that on purpose! Now, they might not have thought it through with the Bystander abuse, but suppose they did?

Their job is to make money. Right? Their job is not to provide us with endless hours of entertainment. They do that in order to make money!

So, they put a really good figure or 3 in a 100 dollar limited set, in order to make money!

I don't see the problem with it any more than Crisis Kal-L's powers which allow him to devastate entire teams. Oh yeah, they made Kal-L uber-powerful for one reason: to make money! :)

[TheMoonMonster]

Why not a change in the rules that says

"Bystander Tokens are never defeated, they are removed from play, and are awarded points AS IF they were defeated, but they are NOT defeated."

Wouldn't that solve the problem? :)

Isn't this making a bigger rule change that impacts the whole game, to deal with a single figure? Seems like the single figure errata could be a bit cleaner...

In any event, I think the biggest deal is not bystanders exactly, but the ability for a player to "defeat" his own characters through pushing and/or the phone booth. I think Rurouni's point is that, even with errata, Big Figure could be an amazing figure....just not crossing the line into abusable.

Personally, I'm expecting and hoping the errata to be more of the "on an opponent's turn", as opposed to a "once per turn" kind of deal, since that manages to still make Big Figure awesome, keep his "riot" thematics, while not allowing brokeness with pogs or shallow generics.

[PISCEAN]

In addition, the questions as to what happens when multiple Big Figures come into play add more weight to the argument that there should be a new Highlander tournament format!

This figure should definitely have been made a unique!

and to Brevard321:

I cannot possibly fathom why anyone would object to a company considering and acting on input from their consumer base. In effect, the populace represented on the realms acts as a final play test check. In their play testing perhaps Wizkids didn't realize the problems this figure's power brings to the overall game. Now thanks to realmsers stepping up to speak up they are made fully aware of the issue.

If no one listened to what the players of the game had to say you would never have even gotten a Watchman set!!

If no one listened you could still lose a game to a guy playing a barrier/sif team that wins by never moving or attacking and simply having a lower cost build total! Cramcompany brought that one to light and it was a good thing he did.

The list goes on...

It's not like something unreasonable is being discussed here nor do I think its a case where Wizkids is just sheepishly giving in to angry demands without thought and consideration of their own. There is no precedent being set that threatens the "free will" of Wizkids.

[ChiRocker]

If anything, I think that Spider-Man's line of fire power is the real problem.

Pieces like Captain America and Susan Richards have been complained about, and then they make a piece like CS whose line of fire is never blocked?

That's the abusable part of the equation. The fact that there is no terrain feature which can even try to protect you from the free attacks is the real problem.

And if we really have a self-policing gaming community like everyone says we have, no one will play BFCSJP every week, so I don't really see what the problem is.

Of course BFCSJP stands for Big Figure/Cosmic Spider-Man/Jarvis Pogs.

And if someone plays a thematical team with Big Figure and Watchmen thugs, no one would say a word about how broken Big Figure is.

The problem is Spider-Man, so if anything, that piece needs an errata!

Yes he should, he should have 2 different SP's =]

[Thrumble Funk]

But Rurouni, that's the point! They designed it so you could get a free attack on the opponent during their turn. This Place is Going to Explode!

Right. And apparently it's gonna explode. Multiple times. Regardless of who or what gets taken out.

For 49 points. Awesome. :tired:

And yeah, we've known about the dial for a while, and concerns were voiced then. WK has apparently listened, and will tweak the figure so that it isn't a new cheap, broken combo to deal with.

On that note, you mentioned that it took years for NAAT and anti-SIF stuff to come about. Do you REALLY want to go through two or three more years of that oh-so-creative tourney play?

[Thrumble Funk]

It's not like something unreasonable is being discussed here nor do I think its a case where Wizkids is just sheepishly giving in to angry demands without thought and consideration of their own. There is no precedent being set that threatens the "free will" of Wizkids.

Right.

The whole BatB GL/Flash "z0mg t3h GL n33ds teh R4NG0rz" thing? That's fans being unreasonable.

This is completely reasonable, IMO.

[Jarimy123]

Claiming the game designers meant for it to work as is makes no sense considering they are now going to change it.

Regardless of the where the idea(s) for the change came from, their are changing it. So to say "They meant to have it this way so it should stay this way" is a really invalid argument.

[brevard321]

Yeah, but it is easy to see just by reading the power, that when one of your friendly guys is KO'd, you get a free attack.

It's a very simple power, and is designed to reflect the chaos of the prison riot.

Is anyone implying that the GAME DESIGNERS don't understand what a character being defeated means, or that they don't know that people will actually use Bystander Tokens when given a good reason?

I think that the complaints are selling the game designers short, and will lead to fewer creative powers such as this one.

Just because someone found a way to abuse it, doesn't mean it needs to change.

Just because they are changing the power, doesn't mean they didn't want it to work that way in the first place. That is also an invalid argument.

I will wait to hear some official word on the errata, but if they say they've been working on the errata since the dials were previewed, I will not believe that.

If they say they intended to errata it all along, I will not believe that either.

If they had wanted it a certain way, they would have written it that way. This is not a grammar mistake, or a copy editing mistake.

They designed the power the way they wanted to, probably with much discussion and some playtesting. They then produced the Watchmen set. People complained. Now they are discussing errata. Seems simple to me. :(

[Rurouni KJS]

In any event, I think the biggest deal is not bystanders exactly, but the ability for a player to "defeat" his own characters through pushing and/or the phone booth. I think Rurouni's point is that, even with errata, Big Figure could be an amazing figure....just not crossing the line into abusable.

Personally, I'm expecting and hoping the errata to be more of the "on an opponent's turn", as opposed to a "once per turn" kind of deal, since that manages to still make Big Figure awesome, keep his "riot" thematics, while not allowing brokeness with pogs or shallow generics.

You got my point exactly, and we both hope the same thing. It's not the pogs that are the problem; it's that a character can suddenly make multiple free attacks in a single turn at will if the team's set up for it (though the pog certainly exacerbate the problem).

The errata I expect and hope for: "Immediately after a character friendly to Big Figure is defeated by damage dealt as the result of an attack, Big Figure or a character friendly to Big Figure can make a close combat attack or a ranged combat attack as a free action.

[Mac42081]

When figure makes an attack granted by Big Figure's special power can the target's Super Senses or Impervious be rerolled?

[Questions]

When figure makes an attack granted by Big Figure's special power can the target's Super Senses or Impervious be rerolled?

We'll need to see the errata to see when the power activates, but....

You can reroll your rolls on your turn and your opponent's rolls on your opponent's turn. If the figure makes the attack on your opponent's turn then your opponent would be rolling Super Senses or Impervious on their turn and PC could cause that roll to be rerolled.

[Surfer13]

If they had wanted it a certain way, they would have written it that way. This is not a grammar mistake, or a copy editing mistake.

They designed the power the way they wanted to, probably with much discussion and some playtesting. They then produced the Watchmen set. People complained. Now they are discussing errata. Seems simple to me. :(

Do you really believe that there is no chance that they were thinking that it would work a certain way but just didn't think it through when they put the words down?
That maybe they didn't think that pogs were characters or they were thinking that defeated meant that they had to be KOed by an opponent?

Do you think that somehow the game is better if golden age is overran by Big Figure, a bunch of Jarvis pogs, a TKer or two, and a heavy hitter with good range to take up a position where it can execute character after opposing character when the Jarvi begin their death march?

I wish that errata wasn't needed, but I do not know where perfect people can be found to do that, or any other, job.
Things happen, and someone catches it. Sometimes that someone happens to be the players. :cool:

[UltraSuperGuy]

I for one will be upset if there is an errata made, just because the players THINK there should be.

If NECA/WK designs and produces a figure, that figure should be played the way it was designed.

We play the game, but it is not OUR game. We don't make it. We spend money on it, but we don't CONTROL it.


Wow. You should never work for a company in terms of public relations because it would be the death of that company!

The fact that they are going to errata it and do it quickly indicates a few good things about the people over at NECA/WK.
1) They realize they made a mistake with a figure and that not rectifying it would legitimately hurt the integrity and playability of the game.
2) They are listening to the people that matter, their customers.
3) If they didn't do either of the above, they would see an inevitable drop off in their sales for the game, and they certainly don't want to do that. That would be bad business.

People make mistakes, that's okay, not rectifying mistakes is the only real mistake. I'm happy that they are getting on this quickly rather than watch the tourney scene implode for a year or whatever because of Big Figure.

[brevard321]

A few points:

New Wizkids/NECA is primarily concerned about the Modern Age game, correct? It's not like they are reprinting Jarvis bystander tokens or anything (at the moment). For modern age games, which would be the large tournament games (GenCon, etc.), Jarvis (and Lian Harper) is not a legal option. So I don't see the problem there.

Two, this is not about public relations. If WK/NECA made a Watchmen figure which LITERALLY caught on fire when you opened the box, then they would have to jump on the situation and rectify it. This is something entirely different. This is something they could discuss and playtest internally again, and then decide if they need to make a change. It would not have to happen immediately, though.

We all know in reality, having Big Figure available in Golden Age with his current power is not going to end the world, nor the Heroclix game.

Again, in this thread, we have seen that the local player community is supposed to police itself. Many people posting on this thread said that they would never allow someone to play this cheesy combination, or that there would be consequences if they did.

So why can't that happen? Why do we need WK to change the figure so we don't have to police our own player group?

The thing is, if they do errata this figure, I sincerely hope that we get a DETAILED description of what happened and why this occurred, much like the description we got when the SIF was changed.

I think to change after the fact, a piece that many people paid upwards of $100 to acquire the set its in, the explanation needs to be as thorough as possible.

We're not talking about a freebie like War Machine. We're talking about a piece which could only be acquired in one way, and that way is by buying a Watchmen set which costs $99 MSRP.

I'm really not trying to be a bonehead about this, I just see this piece as big of a problem as any of the other cheese pieces, cards, and strategies we deal with all the time in this game. If those other pieces and cards haven't destroyed the game, Big Figure without errata wouldn't either.

[jak7890]

A few points:

New Wizkids/NECA is primarily concerned about the Modern Age game, correct? It's not like they are reprinting Jarvis bystander tokens or anything (at the moment). For modern age games, which would be the large tournament games (GenCon, etc.), Jarvis (and Lian Harper) is not a legal option. So I don't see the problem there.

Yes, it's clear that you don't see the problem; you've been rather repetitive about it.

As for your assertion that they are primarily concerned with Modern Age, I must point out that this does not mean that they are unconcerned with Golden Age. The very existence of Golden Age proves my point.

Two, this is not about public relations. If WK/NECA made a Watchmen figure which LITERALLY caught on fire when you opened the box, then they would have to jump on the situation and rectify it. This is something entirely different. This is something they could discuss and playtest internally again, and then decide if they need to make a change. It would not have to happen immediately, though.

No, this isn't about PR, it's about their product. Their product is more than the just the physical pieces; it's also the gameplay itself.

Consider this the downloadable patch that fixes a gameplay bug.

We all know in reality, having Big Figure available in Golden Age with his current power is not going to end the world, nor the Heroclix game.

You're right that this won't be the end of the game, but it could chip away at it in conjunction with other issues. I would hate to see BF teams every time the tourney prize is popular/highly in demand.

Again, in this thread, we have seen that the local player community is supposed to police itself. Many people posting on this thread said that they would never allow someone to play this cheesy combination, or that there would be consequences if they did.

So why can't that happen? Why do we need WK to change the figure so we don't have to police our own player group?

Really? You have to ask this? If everyone is coming up with some sort of errata/banning on their own then WK would be utterly stupid to not make one official.

Again, the gameplay itself is a WK product, and the less policing that I have to do as a judge, the better designed (and received) that product must be.

I like quality in those things I buy.

The thing is, if they do errata this figure, I sincerely hope that we get a DETAILED description of what happened and why this occurred, much like the description we got when the SIF was changed.

Well, if you'd like a preview of that DETAILED description, I invite you to reread this thread. I trust you'll find it enlightening.

I think to change after the fact, a piece that many people paid upwards of $100 to acquire the set its in, the explanation needs to be as thorough as possible.

We're not talking about a freebie like War Machine. We're talking about a piece which could only be acquired in one way, and that way is by buying a Watchmen set which costs $99 MSRP.

I'm really not trying to be a bonehead about this, I just see this piece as big of a problem as any of the other cheese pieces, cards, and strategies we deal with all the time in this game. If those other pieces and cards haven't destroyed the game, Big Figure without errata wouldn't either.

You make it sound like the entire reason for your purchase of the Watchmen set was just so that you could pull this combo with Big Figure. You're right that this isn't going to be the end of the game in and of itself, but you've missed the point:

Balance is good for the game; at present, as the card is worded right now, Big Figure is unbalanced.

[hclixinarcadia]

Do you really believe that there is no chance that they were thinking that it would work a certain way but just didn't think it through when they put the words down?
That maybe they didn't think that pogs were characters or they were thinking that defeated meant that they had to be KOed by an opponent?

Do you think that somehow the game is better if golden age is overran by Big Figure, a bunch of Jarvis pogs, a TKer or two, and a heavy hitter with good range to take up a position where it can execute character after opposing character when the Jarvi begin their death march?

I wish that errata wasn't needed, but I do not know where perfect people can be found to do that, or any other, job.
Things happen, and someone catches it. Sometimes that someone happens to be the players. :cool:

I don't think people realize how broken it is because they haven't thought out the combos but the scenario you described above is the exact thing I tested for a 500 pt team and by turn two the other team was wiped out.

Earlier, when I was casually reading thru the posts here, I thought to myself "eh, it's probably beatable... just hit the heavy hitter first"... well, I did that and by turn two... bye, bye.

Of course I didn't try energy explosion.... but let's see if I had figures with triple target EE, to try to take out all the Jarvi but for every attack, his 12 range Darkseid gets a crack at me, hmmm.... I don't think my triple target EE figures will all get a chance to go... I think I'd still get wiped out by turn 2...

how about taking out BF first? nah, it'll just mastermind the damage to the pogs and then Darkseid gets free attacks on you.

The fact that WK will errata it means it is a legit complaint. WK won't just give in to customer complaints... c'mon now, people need to give WK a little more credit than that.

Earlier on the deputies were saying BF is beatable, but I think there have been discussions, perhaps PMs to people who know the strats, some play-testing, and finally a determination that it is indeed broken. Thus, the announcement from Norm that there is errata coming.

I think that the above is a more likely scenario than what some are claiming: that WK broke down amidst multiple fan complaints and issued an errata to appease those fans.

Game Design is a lot like Software Development, you think you've created perfection only to find that it has bugs... and after you've mass distributed it... aaargh.... the only choice is to issue patches (errata)

[Renard]

I for one will be upset if there is an errata made, just because the players THINK there should be.

If NECA/WK designs and produces a figure, that figure should be played the way it was designed. Even if they come out now and say they made a mistake on the special power, I won't believe it. Any errata will just be confirmation that they won't stick to their guns on how the figures are designed.

In my opinion, Big Figure was designed to play exactly as it is written. Not once per turn, not only when an opponent KO's your figure, but exactly as written.

We play the game, but it is not OUR game. We don't make it. We spend money on it, but we don't CONTROL it.

It's kind of like the Twilight thing. You may not want them to ever make a Twilight action pack, but if they do, the only thing you can do about it, is not buy it.

I just don't see the complaints about Big Figure, when Heroclix players have been abusing cheese for years, from Firelord to KC Green Lantern with Trick Shot, to Icons Vet Superman, to Ultimates Thor, to Out of the Shadows Batman, to Skrull Ms. Marvel, all the way now to WOS Nightcrawler and beyond.

For 49 points, Big Figure is hyper-efficient, but so are so many of the other figures in the game. For every Abomination, there is a HOT Captain America.

I just don't see the issue with Big Figure, and I will be very dissapointed in an errata that just appears out of nowhere, based soley on consumer complaints.

Comparing the HOT Captain America to Abomination point effectiveness imbalance to Big Figure isn't right. Big Figure encourages a player to suicide his own team in order to have overwhelming attacking turns. As if that wasn't bad enough, Big Figure is the first piece that allows you to attack on your opponent's turn. I think that pretty much sums up the problem. There are always going to be figs better than others for their relative point cost. But this is tweaking game mechanics at a dangerously low 49 pts. Not good.

[brevard321]

Well regardless, I still don't personally believe it needs an errata. And obviously I am in the small minority in that regard.

Big Figure by itself is not the problem.

Big Figure, combined with Cosmic Spider-Man, combined with many Jarvis bystanders, is the problem. It is the "Perfect Storm" of cheese, of which we have had many. And in Modern Age, not nearly as big a problem because of the illegal Jarvis pogs.

It is unbalanced, but so are so many of the other pieces, cards, and strategies in Heroclix. In fact, there are pieces which are so unbalanced, they are unplayable. Why are they not given errata?

If a piece has such a bad dial that they are only useful as a small paperweight, why are they not changed for balance purposes?

Why didn't Avengers C Iron Man get an errata on that horrible special power it was given? Why wasn't Avengers Abomination errated to say "Add 2 to every number on this character's dial?"

This game is NOT balanced, and any week that you want to cheese it up and go for the throat, you can. That is not balanced. That is an illusion of balance, which is not the same thing.

It's only balanced until someone feels like unbalancing it, and starts playing Crisis Kal-El, or a LAMP team, or 10 Jason Bloods, or a super scientist Mr. Fantastic Brilliant Tactician team. :ermm:

[brevard321]

Just wanted to add, Heroclix is unbalanced, but it is still WAY fun.

Risk is unbalanced, but it is also way fun. So is college football and the stock market. That's just the way it is sometimes.

And as far as being attacked on your own turn, we have been dealing with Mystics forever, and they don't even need to make an attack roll! Just take the damage!

Big Figure's power is like Super Mystics, with an attack roll required.

[TheMoonMonster]

Big Figure's power is like Super Mystics, with an attack roll required.

If that was all it was, I'd be all for it, but again, I don't think the big beef is that the power overall is too strong - more just that it allows abuse through suiciding your own figures, which is pretty unprecedented, with the exception of the suicide squad TA...which on the whole is limited, and heck, has "suicide" in the name. :p

I'd say that yes, Big Figure's power is like Super Mystics with an attack roll required on your opponent's turn.

On your turn, in Golden Age at least, it's basically like a Warbound for 49 points that you can use to take 10+ actions in a turn as opposed to one, with no point or keyword requirements. Even in modern, that's allowing at least 3 (in 300) extra attacks that don't place a token and can be done one after the other.

It's as if Mystics allowed you to, when that figure takes a click of damage from anything, including pushing, deal a click to one of your opponent's figures.

[zero_cochrane]

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

[UltraSuperGuy]

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

Stop making sense! This is an internet forum!!!!!

[UltraSuperGuy]

We're not talking about a freebie like War Machine. We're talking about a piece which could only be acquired in one way, and that way is by buying a Watchmen set which costs $99 MSRP.


Ummm, not the only way, I bought my Big Figure as a single for $6.

[jak7890]

As if that wasn't bad enough, Big Figure is the first piece that allows you to attack on your opponent's turn. I think that pretty much sums up the problem.

You are mistaken. Wrecker did this waaaay before Big Figure, and nobody though he was broken. Quite the opposite, in fact; he was largely reviled as a waste of points.

Well regardless, I still don't personally believe it needs an errata. And obviously I am in the small minority in that regard.

Big Figure by itself is not the problem.

Big Figure, combined with Cosmic Spider-Man, combined with many Jarvis bystanders, is the problem. It is the "Perfect Storm" of cheese, of which we have had many. And in Modern Age, not nearly as big a problem because of the illegal Jarvis pogs.

It is unbalanced, but so are so many of the other pieces, cards, and strategies in Heroclix. In fact, there are pieces which are so unbalanced, they are unplayable. Why are they not given errata?

If a piece has such a bad dial that they are only useful as a small paperweight, why are they not changed for balance purposes?

Why didn't Avengers C Iron Man get an errata on that horrible special power it was given? Why wasn't Avengers Abomination errated to say "Add 2 to every number on this character's dial?"

This game is NOT balanced, and any week that you want to cheese it up and go for the throat, you can. That is not balanced. That is an illusion of balance, which is not the same thing.

It's only balanced until someone feels like unbalancing it, and starts playing Crisis Kal-El, or a LAMP team, or 10 Jason Bloods, or a super scientist Mr. Fantastic Brilliant Tactician team. :ermm:

You've somehow mixed up the term "inefficient" with "unbalanced." You've also somehow mixed up the term "efficient" with "unbalanced." I'm kind of impressed, actually.

Brillian Tactition for 20pts is efficient, but it's not the same as getting 20 free attacks in one turn.

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

Oh, sure. You just have to come in with your voice of reason...

[vlad3theimpaler]

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

Admit it, you just wanted to use the word "vociferous" in a sentence.:cool:

[PISCEAN]

Cosmic Spiderman and Jarvis are not the problem. They are simply the figures that are very easy to utilize to illustrate that BIG FIGURE IS A PROBLEM!
As I stated earlier when we tested this, BF was on an all Watchmen team and it wasn't Cosmic Spidey or a bunch of pogs that were tearing things up it was figures like the Comedian and Rorschach and of course Dr Manhattan. Whether it was a 40 point figure or a 276 pt figure utilizing the power, it was far too powerful an ability. The fact that ANY figure can attack repeatedly outside its turn, with 2 tokens no less, with this power is the problem.

Any figures or powers that seriously threaten game balance are errata'ed or they cause the designers to rethink the balance of the game which is a constant and ongoing process that IS VITAL TO THE SURVIVAL OF A GAME!

Lets continue with your examples:
As far as overpowered aspects of the game the long history of changes in core game mechanics, powers and abilities to bring balance on Wizkids part answers that question. Did the changes make the game 100% perfect? Of course not and it is ridiculous to expect as much, but every change was a step in the right direction to bring better balance to the game and keep vital and playable on ALL levels of gameplay.

As far as underpowered figures are concerned they are rectified by being re released and updated. This is necessary for them to stay in business since they need to keep selling the product. If they were going to use errata to update every figure they would not need to repeat figures and would run out of characters to print and sell. The fact that sets become retired and fall out of print so new players cannot get them also necessitate re releases of figures which again, provides opportunity for characters to be updated. Only erratas that are actual oversights, mistakes or that are needed to reflect the current state of the rules are made. If a dial is outdated then it's fixed by a new version of the character.

Cheesy combination's which try to exploit loopholes in the rules are not a symptom that the game is unbalanced since ALL cheese teams can be countered and defeated. Plenty of players on the realms can attest to that with pride.
Unbalance in clix is when a figure, power, mechanic or combo thereof, is utilized that causes a near definite victory for the player using it nearly 99% of the time and that is virtually not able to be countered. Another view of unbalance is any combination of figures, abilities or game mechanics that is so overwhelmingly powerful it renders all other methods of play obsolete by comparison. Big Figure fits into these categories, the other figures you mentioned do not.

Risk is not a collectible game that has numerous interchanging parts which keep it growing.There are no Risk tournaments held for prizes and since its a much simpler game you can account for the Australia gambit among yer buds when you play if you want to. It is a completely different animal.

Do you not realize the amount of regulation involved to maintain the stock market.I'm not entering the political arena on a game site so I'm not goin any further with that comment. I'll just say.."think about it."

Unbalance exists in all games which means things that are IDENTIFIED as unbalanced need to be RECTIFIED to maintain as much balance as possible. Your examples only serve to illustrate the point that BF needs to be errata'ed. Stating that errata is not needed because all games have unbalance is like saying don't bother with a penal system since crimes are going to be committed anyway...SOMETHING STILL NEEDS TO BE DONE even though you spent $99 and feel cheated because your BF may not be able to play GOD in your games.

Finally, as for Mystics: they are limited to one retaliatory pt of damage. BF's power is so far, far beyond Mystics feedback and can cause TONS more damage...I don't know how you think its the same thing.

[PISCEAN]

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

No they don't but they can be a sort of masochistic fun...:p

Oooohhhh all right...good point Zero Cochrane...good point.

[Renard]

You are mistaken. Wrecker did this waaaay before Big Figure, and nobody though he was broken. Quite the opposite, in fact; he was largely reviled as a waste of points.



You've somehow mixed up the term "inefficient" with "unbalanced." You've also somehow mixed up the term "efficient" with "unbalanced." I'm kind of impressed, actually.

Brillian Tactition for 20pts is efficient, but it's not the same as getting 20 free attacks in one turn.



Oh, sure. You just have to come in with your voice of reason...

Well ok but Wrecker is 230 pts and isn't worth that. Big Figure is a lot bigger problem. :)

[Renard]

I think that the intensity of this debate is not really warranted, given that an errata is coming but we don't know what it is yet. Vociferous argument doesn't accomplish anything at this stage.

I think the intensity of the debate is warranted because the debate is not how or to what extent Big Figure should be fixed by errata but whether or not Big Figure should even be fixed by errata, which thankfully he will be.

[zero_cochrane]

Oh, sure. You just have to come in with your voice of reason...It's kinda my job!

Admit it, you just wanted to use the word "vociferous" in a sentence.:cool:How do you know I don't use that word every day? I am a master of adoxography! :grin:

[jak7890]

Well ok but Wrecker is 230 pts and isn't worth that. Big Figure is a lot bigger problem. :)

Hehe, yeah, I'd agree with that.

[Renard]

I think Big Figure could be fixed by errata with the addition of 4 words:
Immediately after a character friendly to Big Figure is defeated during your opponent's turn, Big Figure or a character friendly to Big Figure can make a close combat attack or a ranged combat attack as a free action.

I don't know it still might be too powerful. Would definitely lead to some turtle squads.

[Renard]

Either that or if Big Figure can lead his suicide squad they have to be something like 30-50 pt minimum figs to trigger his SP.