Zen Hattan

[nivlac713]

This has been touched on in various posts, but nothing in depthed. I've heard people call Dr. Manhattan (quickly dubbed Zen Manhattan for his lotus position) a beast and I've heard others say he is being overestimated. What do you really think?

I think he is bonkers! Can't be outwited, can't mess with his numbers, TWO roll outs on most of his dial to most attacks, at least one against anything but pulse wave, makes you reroll just to get him to make those two rolls, and one of them goes off on anything but a 1 or a 2! Throw in psy blast on every single clix, and I'm sorry, but this guy is so sweet my teeth are already runnin outta my mouth. I wanna play it so bad, yet I'm equally afraid to see him across the map. Anyone else? Agree or not?

[Uberman]

You can always perplex your own attack up.

[nivlac713]

Or defense, or damage yeah. Its only the negative it really stops, which is awesome! Like I said, he is bonkers!

[winndwalker]

You can always perplex your own attack up.

But then the rest of your team who would also like to attack can't benefit from it as well.

Honestly the TA isn't all THAT great, but I think it'll matter in a reactive sort of way. Guys like Black Hand will be useless and perplex will be reigned in just a little bit.

I think Seth did a fantastic job on this set so far. It's all I could have hoped for, and that Zen Hattan or whatever really feels like the character and yet remains a heroclix. Amazing how even after all these sets a piece can still feel like a unique element of the game.

[wonderboy8917]

Warbound him with E Steel from Origins and have Steel carry him around and perplex him up.

[Blaiser]

I'm very happy with Zen Manhattan, Scientist keyword!! I just finally got ahold of the Fantastic Four starter and can see him going on a team with Reed. Bwhahaha

Warbound him with E Steel from Origins and have Steel carry him around and perplex him up.

I think this is an awesome factor too, the Dr can be carried! So many uses.

[3Gsniper]

Yeah either Doc Manhattan will be great for Scientist teams, though Zen is definitely the better choice for all his goody-ness.

[JDKenada]

Warbound him with E Steel from Origins and have Steel carry him around and perplex him up.

Assuming you're not playing Modern Age...

[DucksFlying81]

I agree that he is pretty fierce, but his damage output is relatively low when compared with some other pieces that expensive. He also doesn't have flurry or super-strength, so perplex is the only way to get more juice out of him.

Some other high-costing pieces with more impressive damage-dealing potential:

Odin (295 points)--he can do five damage on his first click, plus he has super-strength.
Supernova Mighty Thor (286 points)--natural damage only starts out at four but he's also got super-strength and ranged combat expert.
Apocalypse (250 points)--he can do five, plus super-strength.
Thanos (267 points)--he starts out with four, but goes up to five.

And none of those figures have damage values that go below 3. Manhattan ends with four clicks of only doing 2 damage.

So, he has a score of powers that make him worth every bit of the 276 points, but because of his lower damage potential for such a high point cost, I am going to say that he is more of a finesse piece. In other words, I love him.

[Grumpygoat]

Dr. Manhattan is absolutely ridiculous if you're playing the wrong team against him. If you don't have Psychic Blast, Exploit Weakness, Incapacitate, or the Meteorite? Yeah, it's going to be a long, hard game.

If you have any of those? Then you still have to contend with an 18 Defense, Super Senses, and Probability Control - which can be rough, but is much easier to handle. Those powers downgrade Manhattan from a ridiculous piece to just a good piece.

[JDKenada]

Those powers downgrade Manhattan from a ridiculous piece to just a good piece.

By my measuring stick, that's the way it should be. :cool:

[Perplexinator]

Damage values don't mean jack, I'm afraid. It's lasting ability that wins games. Superman can dish out big damage, but the second you outwit the impervious and hit him 2-3 times with your team, he goes down pretty quickly. Superman may one-shot someone, but with an outwitter or two, you can reply kindly and take him back out. That is exactly what I did after a CR Superman Chase one-shotted my CR Darkseid. Actually finished him with a BCF'er rolling a 6.

Dr. Manhattan will barely get scratched by many teams out there. Other's keep saying that all you need is Psychic Blast + 5DMG, but how many teams bring that to every battle? Or, you could use KC Superman with this, and that, and do this, and have that out on the field, and TK, then HSS, then TK back...blah. Sure, if you take another overpowered figure and do cheesy moves with him, sure, you can dent Mr. Manhattan. But how many people are going to be doing this at tournaments?

If I took Mr. OMFGhatten to my local tournament scene, I know I'd autowin against a good majority of the players, just because they don't bring Psychic Blast + 4-5DMG or KC Superman each week. It would just be a slaughter. Sure, their team would get some shots in, and have time to damage Mr. OMFGhatten, but it's not like they are going to win. You spend most of the battle trying to take Mr. OMFGhatten down, just for him to run back to BN Atom, or another decent medic and get healed back up to his super impervious.

Maybe other people play in more serious areas, but in fun areas, Mr. OMFGhatten is 100% cheese and 100% overpowered. He's CR Superman Chase-style overpowered, and everyone knows it. Hiding behind little things like he doesn't have indomitable, or doesn't have move and attack abilities doesn't mean anything. He has the best damage reducers of any figure in the entire game (prove me wrong).

And the worst part? Anyone who doesn't drop $100 to get the figure and a few other decent figures will be at a big disadvantage. Since this isn't a set, I doubt there will be singles online. If there is a single online of Mr. OMFGhatten, expect to pay $80 for it. It's the best piece in the box set, and one of the best pieces in the game.

Okay, rant over.

[jackstar7]

I'm just glad to learn that I misread his points. I thought for a scary moment that he was 216.

[UltraSuperGuy]

Warbound him with E Steel from Origins and have Steel carry him around and perplex him up.

Who needs Warbound when you can just use The Watchmen's Big Figure and a bunch of pogs?

[Neverfate]

Am I the only one jealous that this isn't a Silver Surfer figure?

[Grumpygoat]

Dr. Manhattan will barely get scratched by many teams out there. Other's keep saying that all you need is Psychic Blast + 5DMG, but how many teams bring that to every battle? Or, you could use KC Superman with this, and that, and do this, and have that out on the field, and TK, then HSS, then TK back...blah. Sure, if you take another overpowered figure and do cheesy moves with him, sure, you can dent Mr. Manhattan. But how many people are going to be doing this at tournaments?


Yeah. You're wrong. I'm looking at the past few teams I've built and every one of them can deal with him in some way. They're mostly 400-500 point teams, but just at a glance...

Sinestro Corps Batman and Edward Nigma. Just at 300 points, I can throw 5 damage at Manhattan every turn. In Stealth. Where Manhattan can't use Probability Control. Forcing him to base my figure. Who can attack him every turn. And has the option to use Incapacitate - against which Manhattan's only defense is Super Senses, because Batman only needs to roll a 7 (an average roll) or an 8 through hindering (mildly difficult) to hit an 18 Defense and can't be hit with Probability Control due to Stealth. Whereas I can use my one theme team reroll by putting hindering terrain in front of Batman but still keeping line of fire to Nigma.

Now, that's a strong team admittedly. But let's move on...

League of Assassins. Deathstroke - 3 damage, 11 Attack, Stealth, late dial Psychic Blast and Perplex, Blades/Claws/Fangs on clicks 3-5. League Elite, Blades/Claws/Fangs, Stealth. Man Bat Assassin, Blades/Claws/Fangs on clicks 3-5. Batgirl - eventually gets a 12 attack with Exploit Weakness and has Stealth. Now, this is a bit of a tough fight, but still doable. Deathstroke should get the first shot off. Both the Man Bat and League Elite can survive 4 damage. I would make a point of pushing Batgirl until I get that 12 attack with Exploit Weakness - hopefully the Man Bat and League Elite can keep Manhattan occupied for long enough. This would be a tough, tough battle, but Manhattan only has 24 points of support, which I could probably eliminate pretty early on. A little bit of luck, proper positioning, and pushing my figures to where they need to be might be able to carry me through on this one.

Another League of Assassins team. Talia. Stealth, Psychic Blast, Mastermind. Ra's al Ghul. Stealth, Blades/Claws/Fangs.

Oh. A team with Mystics. Any Mystics. Mystics with 5 clicks or more. Mystics with less, for at least one damage.

Injustice Society - Icicle and his auto-hit Incapacitate-effect. Count Vertigo with Incapacitate. Per Degaton, who eventually can Psychic Blast and Incapacitate as a free action.

A figure with Pulse Wave. Play Malice. Use positioning to block line of fire to adjacent attackers, thus preventing Manhattan from using Probability Control. Perplex up the range of an attacker to 11, again preventing Manhattan from using Probability Control.

Sure, I listed some pretty strong figures here - Sinestro Corps Batman, Edward Nigma, Icicle, and Talia. There was a decent amount of Stealth. Still, there are so many different solutions for dealing with Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan, who is 276 points, who is almost your entire team in a 300 point game. Unless you have a policy of never using good characters, ever, then a team should have a few ways of dealing with him. Be willing to push. Keep a sniper in your opponent's starting area to open fire on Manhattan when he rematerializes on a 3-4.

As a figure that is almost an entire team, Dr. Manhattan should be able to function as almost an entire team. And you know what? He does. He does so without being impossible to beat. You almost have to deliberately build a team that can't deal with him. Most teams should have someone with a starting 11 Attack. Most teams should have some mix of Incapacitate, Exploit Weakness, Pulse Wave, or Psychic Blast. If none of those? Stealth maybe. Who knows. But the figure can be dealt with.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Outside of the context of the Watchmen set, he looks pretty balanced (but obviously on the more undercosted side of things).

Strong, and will need all the opponents attention to bring down, but not unbeatable.

[Grumpygoat]

Strong, and will need all the opponents attention to bring down, but not unbeatable.

And at 276 points, it's not like his opponent will have much else to pay attention to.

[Troma99]

So If you can get him down far enough...he's pretty much an invulnerable piece that just needs whittling down..hmmmmm

[GameBrain]

Simply put, Manhattan is a game changer in the worse way. Say what you will about Cap and Metron. There are a number of ways to deal with them in a random pairing. You can even brute force it a have a shot at the win. But Dr. Manhattan is simply too difficult to beat without specifically building a team for the occasion.

Damage output? Move-and-attack powers? Indomitable? Manhattan doesn't need any of these. Why? Because to even hit him requires a Herculean effort. Assuming your standard balanced attacker with a 10 attack, you have a 7.7% chance to do any damage at all. If you have a way around damage reducers that still only ups your chances to 11.6%. I've seen better odds of winning in a casino.

Maybe that's not a fair example, but it's a real example. Are you seriously going to do a TK-Gamora/Namor bomb every tournament or rely on risky one-shot plays like PB and PW? The moment that your opponent dictates what you're bringing to the battlefield is the moment that game stops becoming fun and starts the slope towards cutthroat games and competition over imagination.

I really, really hate to be the guy that cries "broken" but this is BS. I've been playing this game since Clobberin' Time. I've faced down every Superman, Thanos, LAMP, perplex-fest, speedster, and Norse deity under the sun. Yeah, there have been mismatches (Thanos vs original Teen Titans) but that's the luck of the draw and I still had a fair shot. Dr. Manhattan is the first figure that has me seriously thinking about getting up from the table and saying, "To hell with this. Take the damn LE."

[Grumpygoat]

Dr. Manhattan is the first figure that has me seriously thinking about getting up from the table and saying, "To hell with this. Take the damn LE."

I'm a decent to good player, but not great. I'd wager that 9 out of 10 teams I've built could handle Dr. Manhattan. Some of them might have to fight tooth-and-nail, but they should have to fight tooth-and-nail because Dr. Manhattan is the equivalent of 2-6 characters, pointwise, depending on your team. Meanwhile, some of the teams I've built would breeze right through him without much difficulty.

I'm willing to concede that, yes, there is a stronger chance of Manhattan proving impossible to defeat than is the case for many, many figures, possibly all short of Galactus. But that only applies for certain teams and probably not the majority of them.

Seriously. Incapacitate, Psychic Blast, Exploit Weakness, Pulse Wave. All of these can hurt Manhattan something fierce. Or how about Hypersonic Speed and a damage above 2 - yes, Manhattan has a pretty formidable defense, but being able to hit-and-run while Manhattan chases you down means that Manhattan should eventually get whittled down by either damage or forcing him to push.

A team that can't deal with Dr. Manhattan is probably going to lose, anyway. Whether it faces off against Manhattan or something else.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Enchantress is laughing all her way to the bank as she mind controls him to attack her.

"TAKE MY MYSTICS DAMAGE. I WIN BASTARD, I WIN."

[Grumpygoat]

Enchantress is laughing all her way to the bank as she mind controls him to attack her.


A Mind Controlled character is friendly to your force while Mind Controlled. He can't attack her under those circumstances.

[Amora's_best_friend]

A Mind Controlled character is friendly to your force while Mind Controlled. He can't attack her under those circumstances.

Ruin my life why don't you. It's less fun if you can't force him to take Mystics damage.

[3Gsniper]

Yeah. You're wrong. I'm looking at the past few teams I've built and every one of them can deal with him in some way. They're mostly 400-500 point teams, but just at a glance...

League of Assassins. Deathstroke - 3 damage, 11 Attack, Stealth, late dial Psychic Blast and Perplex, Blades/Claws/Fangs on clicks 3-5. League Elite, Blades/Claws/Fangs, Stealth. Man Bat Assassin, Blades/Claws/Fangs on clicks 3-5. Batgirl - eventually gets a 12 attack with Exploit Weakness and has Stealth. Now, this is a bit of a tough fight, but still doable. Deathstroke should get the first shot off. Both the Man Bat and League Elite can survive 4 damage. I would make a point of pushing Batgirl until I get that 12 attack with Exploit Weakness - hopefully the Man Bat and League Elite can keep Manhattan occupied for long enough. This would be a tough, tough battle, but Manhattan only has 24 points of support, which I could probably eliminate pretty early on. A little bit of luck, proper positioning, and pushing my figures to where they need to be might be able to carry me through on this one.

Another League of Assassins team. Talia. Stealth, Psychic Blast, Mastermind. Ra's al Ghul. Stealth, Blades/Claws/Fangs.

Where exactly is the League of Assassins in those teams... Deathstroke doesn't have the keyword, neither does the Talia you list.

Though an actual LoA team with the ATA could wreck shop against Dr. Manhattan. Batgirl, Talia al Ghul, Merlyn, and Bronze Tiger plus the ATA is 287. Build up from there. I do agree with getting Cassandra (Batgirl) to that 12 atk, use and abuse her to take out Doc's support.

EDIT: After further review drop Talia al Ghul, she is useless against Doc, replace her with 2 League Assassins, since you have 3 LoA at a higher PV you have Exploit down the dial. Also that brings the team down to 271.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Where exactly is the League of Assassins in those teams... Deathstroke doesn't have the keyword, neither does the Talia you list.

Not every team needs to have a common keyword - something people seem to have forgotten...

[Troma99]

Not every team needs to have a common keyword - something people seem to have forgotten...

YOU SPEAK MADNESS BOY. Pure madness.

Clearly we must be cut-throat gamers. After all this is about Watchmen. And the watchmen is gritty and real

To quote Overman who's written By Grant "No This Can't Happen to me. I'M REALISTIC!!!"

[gatharion]

Dr. Manhattan is absolutely ridiculous if you're playing the wrong team against him. If you don't have Psychic Blast, Exploit Weakness, Incapacitate, or the Meteorite? Yeah, it's going to be a long, hard game.

If you have any of those? Then you still have to contend with an 18 Defense, Super Senses, and Probability Control - which can be rough, but is much easier to handle. Those powers downgrade Manhattan from a ridiculous piece to just a good piece.

I agree. Against some teams Dr. Manhattan will be rather beastly, but lots of other teams should be able to handle him just fine.


I really, really hate to be the guy that cries "broken" but this is BS. I've been playing this game since Clobberin' Time. I've faced down every Superman, Thanos, LAMP, perplex-fest, speedster, and Norse deity under the sun. Yeah, there have been mismatches (Thanos vs original Teen Titans) but that's the luck of the draw and I still had a fair shot. Dr. Manhattan is the first figure that has me seriously thinking about getting up from the table and saying, "To hell with this. Take the damn LE."

Really? Because I'm not so sure that Dr M would do that well against a LAMP team, a speedster with armor piercing, or the likes of Thanos or Darkseid. Even Superman if he's packing the meteorite.
If those old cheesy tactics can trump Dr. M, then how bad can he be?

[3Gsniper]

Not every team needs to have a common keyword - something people seem to have forgotten...

I didn't say they had to, but when you say League of Assassins as a team, then site to instances where it is not the LoA... Well that just doesn't seem to work with my brain. Now if you say Martial Artist, or Assassins, you know anything besides an actual team I would get that.

[The7ofDiamonds]

My two cents.

Strong, very strong. Not broken.

[Surfer13]

My two cents.

Strong, very strong. Not broken.

I'm with them.
276 points of "some teams will have a hard time dealing with this".

For 276 points someone better have a hard time dealing with it.

But I do not see it as an automatic win.

[Roderic_Cliche]

Now we just need a Gargamel LE to take on this wonderfully overpowered Smurf. :)

[GameBrain]

Still gonna argue that Dr. Manhattan is a new breed of whacked-out power. Here's a fun thought: If we're going to allow for feats like Armor Piercing, why not flip it around and give Dr. Manhattan Elite Sniper to cut through stealth and cannon fodder? Or toss good ol' Protected?

Modern Age or Golden Age format, this guy is insanely difficult to take down. Either you build a team specifically for this fight or you have incredible luck.

The two teams that have the best shot are League of Assassins and Mystics. League of Assassins needs a higher attack to score a hit. Mystics I don't have an answer for other than that it's a race. Will Manhattan get tired of punching your team in the face before you run out of cannon fodder?

[spider_ham]

Modern Age or Golden Age format, this guy is insanely difficult to take down. Either you build a team specifically for this fight or you have incredible luck.

The two teams that have the best shot are League of Assassins and Mystics. League of Assassins needs a higher attack to score a hit. Mystics I don't have an answer for other than that it's a race. Will Manhattan get tired of punching your team in the face before you run out of cannon fodder?

True.

I think that stealthed League Assassins have the best chance of damaging "Zenhattan" (using Exploit Weakness), as Dr. M can't draw a line of fire to them to use PC. The attack will have to be filtered through Super Senses and Impervious, though, and due to the fact that the attacking Leaguer is stealthed, there's no way to use theme PC. :ermm:

On the Mystics front, I'd opt for Hela, Nightshade, and cheap Enhancement and/or Perplex. They'd still have their hands full. Mordru is little more powerful than Hela, but wouldn't allow you much support.

[MZA]

Assuming your standard balanced attacker with a 10 attack, you have a 7.7% chance to do any damage at all. If you have a way around damage reducers that still only ups your chances to 11.6%.

I'd be interested to see the math behind this. I think you're hyperbolising to a degree, or at the very least, neglecting to mention the very strict perameters that allow for such a low hit chance. Bearing in mind that his damage reduction power can be eliminated via PB or EW (neither of which are that rare) and his PC on the attack roll can be eliminated by having multiple attempts on him (watching him 'burn' the PC on the first successful hit) or by using a figure in stealth or with Trick Shot so as to prevent his LoF. Really what you're saying is that "if you have a team with no PB, no EW, no Stealth, no PC of your own, and you only make one attack roll per turn, your chances of doing damage are only 7.7%" - which, tbh, I don't think makes for a 'broken figure' as much as it makes for a 'lousy opposing team'.

To be clear, I would agree that he's going to be a major headache for most teams to have to deal with. He may even qualify as the newest 'unbeatable piece du jour' (and how many of those have we had?). But at the moment, shrill conjecture appears to be trumping reasoned debate - nothing new on the interwebz, or even HCR specifically, but worth noting.

[Grumpygoat]

I didn't say they had to, but when you say League of Assassins as a team, then site to instances where it is not the LoA... Well that just doesn't seem to work with my brain. Now if you say Martial Artist, or Assassins, you know anything besides an actual team I would get that.

Deathstroke and Talia are both League of Assassins pieces. They're not keyword League of Assassins pieces. I used it as shorthand for "Stealth-heavy, Move-and-Attack Light, Low Damage Except for Blades/Claws/Fangs."

[bluesummers]

Damage values don't mean jack, I'm afraid. It's lasting ability that wins games. Superman can dish out big damage, but the second you outwit the impervious and hit him 2-3 times with your team, he goes down pretty quickly. Superman may one-shot someone, but with an outwitter or two, you can reply kindly and take him back out. That is exactly what I did after a CR Superman Chase one-shotted my CR Darkseid. Actually finished him with a BCF'er rolling a 6.

Dr. Manhattan will barely get scratched by many teams out there. Other's keep saying that all you need is Psychic Blast + 5DMG, but how many teams bring that to every battle? Or, you could use KC Superman with this, and that, and do this, and have that out on the field, and TK, then HSS, then TK back...blah. Sure, if you take another overpowered figure and do cheesy moves with him, sure, you can dent Mr. Manhattan. But how many people are going to be doing this at tournaments?

If I took Mr. OMFGhatten to my local tournament scene, I know I'd autowin against a good majority of the players, just because they don't bring Psychic Blast + 4-5DMG or KC Superman each week. It would just be a slaughter. Sure, their team would get some shots in, and have time to damage Mr. OMFGhatten, but it's not like they are going to win. You spend most of the battle trying to take Mr. OMFGhatten down, just for him to run back to BN Atom, or another decent medic and get healed back up to his super impervious.

Maybe other people play in more serious areas, but in fun areas, Mr. OMFGhatten is 100% cheese and 100% overpowered. He's CR Superman Chase-style overpowered, and everyone knows it. Hiding behind little things like he doesn't have indomitable, or doesn't have move and attack abilities doesn't mean anything. He has the best damage reducers of any figure in the entire game (prove me wrong).

And the worst part? Anyone who doesn't drop $100 to get the figure and a few other decent figures will be at a big disadvantage. Since this isn't a set, I doubt there will be singles online. If there is a single online of Mr. OMFGhatten, expect to pay $80 for it. It's the best piece in the box set, and one of the best pieces in the game.

Okay, rant over.

- Lasting power is very big in the game, yes. But you won't win, either, unless you can dish out damage. Its about balance. Manhattan can do some good damage, but he is very slow in doing so, because of no move-attack, no willpower. That's going to be key in his defeat.

- If you aren't packing at least one EW and/or Psy Blast character on your team, it is not a tournament worthy team. The fact that Impervious even exists is more than enough reason for one of those two on every build.
It is true that most teams don't pack a 5 Damage psy blaster. But its a mis-nomer that all the damage you need to cripple Manhattan need to come from one figure, or in one strike.
A TK'd Namor, with a meteor, can, with rolls of a mere 7, put Manhattan down to his last click in one action. Two Moonstones can, with rolls of 8 and 7, put Manhattan down to very manageable levels. Heck, one little 73 point Gamora can be TK'd in from outside of Manhattan's range, and she has a very good chance of doing 3 penetrating, and a good chance of surviving long enough to do it AGAIN the next turn.
Can he avoid some of these with Super Senses? Sure, but that only goes off 33% of the time. The odds are in favor of the offensive player.

- Even if he is Chase Superman level powerful (I don't know that he is, but IF)... well, the environment has had those before, and it really didn't seem to unbalance the game, did it? I mean, Clix is still going, and I don't see 317 point Superman dominating every venue.
Hell, didn't you just say that in one of your games, despite Superman one-shotting Darkseid from your team, you later managed to kill him with a solid B/C/F roll?
And dont' say that him not having move-and-attack powers doesn't mean anything. It does. In fact, it kind of means everything. If you can't move to your target in the same action that you shoot, you aren't going to hit your target. Not if your opponent is a competent clix player.

- People will be at a bid disadvantage if they don't buy the set? Because of Doc? Please, none of the figures are nearly that revolutionary. Doc is beastly, sure, but he won't change the environment. To go back to the previous example, do people who don't own a Chase Superman have a tremendous disadvantage? Or can a good player with a team built on solid foundations still take him down? Big mammoth figures like this don't change anything.
And the rest of the set so far is good, but again, not anything to 'put players at a disadvantage' if they don't get it. We've got the Doc, a nifty mechanic in Big Figure, and a series of Punsiher-level shooter and punchers. Good stuff, but nothing not already in the environment.
Heck, if you don't take my word for it, I'll have one of my friends come on and critique. He's a Wizard World champ who isn't going to buy the set because 'so far, none of the figures are powerful enough to justify the purchase'.

Doc is great, and I'm very excited to get him, but lets not blow things out of proportion, here.

[Count_Aight]

Hard to beat but hardly unbeatable.

[GameBrain]

I'd be interested to see the math behind this. I think you're hyperbolising to a degree, or at the very least, neglecting to mention the very strict perameters that allow for such a low hit chance.

Fair enough.

Odds of rolling an 8 or better: 15/36 = 41.67%
Odds of rolling an 8 or better twice: (15/36)^2 = 17.36%
Odds of 8/better twice and beating SS: (15/36)^2 * (2/3) = 11.57%
Odds of 8/better twice, beat SS+Imp: (15/36)^2 *(2/3) * (2/3) = 7.72%

If my math is off let me know.

I consider this a real situation. You're not always going to be packing stealth and PB/EW. You could be playing Avengers, FF, Titans, etc. and be relying on outwit and perplex.

I will admit that at the time, there were 2 factors that I hadn't considered.
1: Manhattan might have to burn PC against a lesser attack.
2: Sharpshooter and Elite Sniper only work for ranged attacks, not PC.

So let's switch to the other end of the spectrum and say that you have a stealthed fig who can dish out penetrating damage.

Odds of 8/better and beating SS: (15/36) * (2/3) = 27.78%

That is far more workable. So having V Loki or blacksuit Talia in play with some enhancement would give you as good a shot as you're going to get.

I still consider that a rather specific situation, but there's enough going on there to keep me at the table. I'll concede the point for now.

[Amora's_best_friend]

Loki and Enchantress are just sitting in Asgard laughing at fools on Earth.

"Of course we can beat him with ease."

[Beck]

from a competitive standpoint, he's EXTREMELY overhyped.

Yes, he's hard to hit, that's pretty much all he has going for him, he's basically Impossible Man that can attack and land damage.

I can sleep comfortably knowing that he has no move and attack and has no willpower/Indom/Cosmic/Quint.

But someone will more than likely use him at Worlds in constructed top 8/16. And will basically be a stepping stone for their opponent for the grand prize.

[UltraSuperGuy]

Playing against Manhatten is a race against time. Everytime he rolls a 3 or 4 on that Special Power he's just going to get zapped back to his starting space where a good medic (like say..... The Atom!) is waiting to heal him up a little and you TK him back out into action.

So eventually you will have to get to your opponents starting position and take out those support figs but only if he lands on those 3 and 4s, if you've got a competitive team going on that can really bring the pain, either HSS bricks with strength or psychic blast, EW, PW, etc. you should be able to take him down. His damage values are just too low later in his dial compared to other big point figs like Thanos. Annoying to take down if he keeps on going back to his starting position, but that's only the minority of the time on those clicks.

[The7ofDiamonds]

What really hasn't been spoken yet is his survivability and how it will actually help him win matches. Not only is he hard to take down, but that is going to make him win. Yes his damage output is nowhere near his defensive capabilities. But his being so many points actually helps him in this regard. There is likely going to be very little else on his team to take out with only 24 points leftover. So it's basically an all or nothing on whether you get points or not. He only needs to KO one figure over 24 points and then just not die if he wants to get a 'W' in his column. Considering not dieing is what he does best, this will help him win matches. Now in larger tournaments where points will dictate the overall tournament winner, and it won't simply just be the W-L ratio, he isn't going to be that effective. But in smaller tournaments where you might only have one person with 4 Wins, his survivability is going to be more competitive than people are giving credit for when it comes to winning.

This comes to mind because I had a sore 600 point match where I dominated the match, but couldn't get one last KO to put me ahead in points of my opponent. My opponent's team: Dark Phoenix. He realized he was whooped, and basically spent the last 20 minute running away, which was possible with his ability to keep pushing and not take damage. I discoverd post match that Dark Phoenix was on her last click............ fml.

[JSChristy]

I don't know if this is being overlooked or what, but his power that "allows" him to go back to his starting area can potentially HURT Zenhattan as much as it can help him. I'd be fine doing 3 clicks of damage, and having Zenhattan teleport back to his starting area. That means he's not hurting my characters, and I can deal with his support. And without any move/attack powers, it'll take him at least 2 turns against any player of at least average intelligence before he will be attacking you again. Sure your opponent may keep a Gee/Marvel in the starting area to TK to counteract this, but you should still be able to control Zenhattan once entrenched so he doesn't do too much damage. I think he is being overestimated.

[gatharion]

I still consider that a rather specific situation, but there's enough going on there to keep me at the table. I'll concede the point for now.

Specialized perhaps to have a character that has both Stealth and Psy Blast, but that's not the only combo that can potentially tear through the blue doctor.
Stealthed incappers aren't that uncommon and a non-stealthed psy blaster (especially one with it's own prob controler and/or perplexer) can still wreck the doctor's day. The same goes for Charging bricks with EW or the meteorite. 18 def + Super Senses and Prob Control isn't all that much of sure thing, especially when you consider who many attackers + support pieces I can get for the same cost as Dr. M.

And he'll be depending pretty heavily on just that 18 defense if someone is using Pulse Wave.


I see Dr. M's greatest potential coming in high-point games where you can spend some time concentrating on opposing figs that do penetrating with the rest of your force.

[MZA]

Fair enough.

Odds of rolling an 8 or better: 15/36 = 41.67%
Odds of rolling an 8 or better twice: (15/36)^2 = 17.36%
Odds of 8/better twice and beating SS: (15/36)^2 * (2/3) = 11.57%
Odds of 8/better twice, beat SS+Imp: (15/36)^2 *(2/3) * (2/3) = 7.72%

If my math is off let me know.

Looks spot on to me.

So let's switch to the other end of the spectrum and say that you have a stealthed fig who can dish out penetrating damage.

Odds of 8/better and beating SS: (15/36) * (2/3) = 27.78%

That is far more workable. So having V Loki or blacksuit Talia in play with some enhancement would give you as good a shot as you're going to get.

I still consider that a rather specific situation, but there's enough going on there to keep me at the table. I'll concede the point for now.

Agreed. Dr Osterzen (guessing that won't stick but I'm throwing it out there anyway!) is categorically going to be a tough, tough figure to take down. But he's a long way from being unbeatable, or requiring that the opposing team be specifically built with him in mind. As Gatharion said, the "stealthed PB-er" is by no means the only way to inflict some hurt on him.

Also, it's worth noting that, as a matter of course, a fair number of opposing teams will also have one or more PCs (to counter-act his own rerolls) and/or Perplexes (to make the attack roll more palatable to begin with). Taking that into consideration, we're probably closer to the 40/60 mark for a 10AV figure to hurt him (that's just me eyeballing it, to be clear - apologies for not having the inclination to go through the math, but multiple PCs are where it starts getting a little tricky for me :) )