Destroying blocking terrain/walls?

[analink]

Is it possible to destroy more then one section of wall or blocking terrain if I have 6 damage and :bolt::bolt:? My main confusion is in the new rulebook it states that :bolt::bolt: lets you have two targets for an attack and targets are defined as characters.

[Quebbster]

Is it possible to destroy more then one section of wall or blocking terrain if I have 6 damage and :bolt::bolt:? My main confusion is in the new rulebook it states that :bolt::bolt: lets you have two targets for an attack and targets are defined as characters.

Yup, perfectly fine to do that.

[CaptAmerica44]

Quebbster,

Are you sure on that? Having multiple lightning bolts allows you to attack multiple targets and a target is defined in the rulebook as:

TARGET: The character or characters against which an attack is being made or a power is being used.

Multiple lightning bolts allow attacks against miltiple characters not multiple locations. Has the definition of a target been expanded to include terrain?

[normalview]

Quebbster,

Are you sure on that? Having multiple lightning bolts allows you to attack multiple targets and a target is defined in the rulebook as:

TARGET: The character or characters against which an attack is being made or a power is being used.

Multiple lightning bolts allow attacks against miltiple characters not multiple locations. Has the definition of a target been expanded to include terrain?

Yes, he is sure. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to destroy even a single terrain feature; all attacks target (except those that specifically say otherwise, like PW).

[CaptAmerica44]

Okay

But you destroy blocking terrain and walls because there are specific rules on "how to" destroy these features (pg 12). None of which designated them as "targets".

While in generic terms we would call them a "target" of the attack. The game does not define them as "targets".

How does multiple locations (terain or objects) become multiple targets as defined (pg 23)?

[normalview]

Okay

But you destroy blocking terrain and walls because there are specific rules on "how to" destroy these features (pg 12). None of which designated them as "targets".

While in generic terms we would call them a "target" of the attack. The game does not define them as "targets".

How does multiple locations (terain or objects) become multiple targets as defined (pg 23)?

If the rules for destroying terrain allow attacks to be used on said terrain, why wouldn't all attacks then be allowed?

[CaptAmerica44]

Are all attacks defined as having a "target" or do they draw line of fire to a characters, object, terrain feature, which we are dubbing generically to be a "target"?

Having one, tow or three lightning bolts are designations for the number of characters (targets) you can attack in a single action, not the number of attacks you can make.

I am fine with a expanded definition of targets....but just want to be clear that multiple bolts can be defined that way.

[normalview]

Are all attacks defined as having a "target" or do they draw line of fire to a characters, object, terrain feature, which we are dubbing generically to be a "target"?


All attacks have a target, yes, unless they specifically say otherwise (like PW).

BN, page 8:

There are two types of combat actions: close combat actions and ranged combat actions (both described on p. 3.) The character given the action and making the attack is called the attacker. The character against which the attack is made is called the target. Every attack must have at least one target. You can’t target a friendly character with an attack, and a character can’t target itself unless specifically allowed.




So, again, if the rules for destroying terrain allow attacks to be used on said terrain, why wouldn't all attacks then be allowed? Answer: they are all allowed. Your trying to split hairs where they don't exist.

[hclixinarcadia]

just to verify, say I have a character with two bolts, and 3 damage, it's ok then to double-target an object and a character?

and say the attack on the character misses, I can then destroy the object instead.

[normalview]

just to verify, say I have a character with two bolts, and 3 damage, it's ok then to double-target an object and a character?

and say the attack on the character misses, I can then destroy the object instead.

That's really interesting; the answer used to *definitely* be "no". From the FF rules:

Destroying blocking terrain. A square of blocking terrain can be destroyed by an attack that deals at least 3 damage in a single attack. When a character attacks blocking terrain, the attack automatically succeeds. An attacker can’t target both a character and blocking terrain with the same attack. A close combat attack can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain adjacent to the attacker. A ranged combat attack can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain by drawing a line of fire to the center of the square of blocking terrain; the line of fire is not blocked by blocking terrain in the target square.



However, I can't find anything like that in the BN rules. I suspect that this is just an oversight, though... I don't recall any discussion in the Deputy Cave about removing that restriction.

So, for now, yes it does seem that you can target both a character and an object (according to Blackest Night). But I am going to make sure this is brought up as soon as Norm decompresses from GenCon and I fully expect that it will be changed to match the FF entry.

[hclixinarcadia]

That's really interesting; the answer used to *definitely* be "no". From the FF rules:

Destroying blocking terrain. A square of blocking terrain can be destroyed by an attack that deals at least 3 damage in a single attack. When a character attacks blocking terrain, the attack automatically succeeds. An attacker can’t target both a character and blocking terrain with the same attack. A close combat attack can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain adjacent to the attacker. A ranged combat attack can be used to destroy a square of blocking terrain by drawing a line of fire to the center of the square of blocking terrain; the line of fire is not blocked by blocking terrain in the target square.



However, I can't find anything like that in the BN rules. I suspect that this is just an oversight, though... I don't recall any discussion in the Deputy Cave about removing that restriction.

So, for now, yes it does seem that you can target both a character and an object (according to Blackest Night). But I am going to make sure this is brought up as soon as Norm decompresses from GenCon and I fully expect that it will be changed to match the FF entry.

thanks. and yeah, I seem to recall a discussion about that and that it was not allowed. I think it should stay the way it is... what's the difference between double-targetting two characters vs. a character and an object/terrain?

[normalview]

thanks. and yeah, I seem to recall a discussion about that and that it was not allowed. I think it should stay the way it is... what's the difference between double-targetting two characters vs. a character and an object/terrain?

It gets complicated very fast.

For example, EE specifies you can only target characters. Fine.

But if you start allowing characters to target both characters AND terrain with the same attack, then what happens to EE? Do you just not get to use that power? Is only the character hit with EE and the object with a normal ranged combat attack (and if so, how exactly is damage determined)? Will targetting a character meet the "only characters" condition sufficiently to allow EE to also be used on the terrain feature?

And that's just one power. A standard, non-special power that doesn't have all sorts of funky exceptions.



GD may have other reasons, too, that I am not aware of.

[hclixinarcadia]

It gets complicated very fast.

For example, EE specifies you can only target characters. Fine.

But if you start allowing characters to target both characters AND terrain with the same attack, then what happens to EE? Do you just not get to use that power? Is only the character hit with EE and the object with a normal ranged combat attack (and if so, how exactly is damage determined)? Will targetting a character meet the "only characters" condition sufficiently to allow EE to also be used on the terrain feature?

And that's just one power. A standard, non-special power that doesn't have all sorts of funky exceptions.



GD may have other reasons, too, that I am not aware of.

Wouldn't it just hit the object/terrain automatically but only do 1 damage thereby not destroying it? There would be splash damage of course because it hit the object/terrain.

Do you mean that there's a conflict between how EE and targetting are defined? If so, then seems like EE has the special restriction and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to EE a character and object/terrain.

[normalview]

Wouldn't it just hit the object/terrain automatically but only do 1 damage thereby not destroying it? There would be splash damage of course because it hit the object/terrain.

Do you mean that there's a conflict between how EE and targetting are defined? If so, then seems like EE has the special restriction and therefore you shouldn't be allowed to EE a character and object/terrain.

Exactly.

The fact that you are asking these questions should indicate that it probably isn't a good idea to let a character target both a character and a terrain feature with the same attack. Why add another layer of complexity?

[Quebbster]

I don't recall any discussion in the Deputy Cave about removing that restriction.
Me neither, FWIW.

[hclixinarcadia]

Me neither, FWIW.

lol, What's FWIW? uhhh... free willy in water?

Exactly.

The fact that you are asking these questions should indicate that it probably isn't a good idea to let a character target both a character and a terrain feature with the same attack. Why add another layer of complexity?

True enough. Why change something that was working.

[Quebbster]

lol, What's FWIW? uhhh... free willy in water?
For what it's worth.

[Questions]

However, I can't find anything like that in the BN rules. I suspect that this is just an oversight, though... I don't recall any discussion in the Deputy Cave about removing that restriction.

So, for now, yes it does seem that you can target both a character and an object (according to Blackest Night). But I am going to make sure this is brought up as soon as Norm decompresses from GenCon and I fully expect that it will be changed to match the FF entry.

It's still there.

From p. 11 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:
No game effect can target or attack a character, in addition to a piece of terrain, or object with the same attack, even if they occupy the same square.

[normalview]

I thought I had seen it before... it just wasn't in either of the places I expected it to be.

Thanks for clearing that up.