Double outwitting a power

[Fuzzy]

I thought I had seen an answer to this question, but I couldn't find it on this or the official forum. So here goes...

Batman and Nightwing are fighting against LE Superman. Can Batman and Nightwing both Outwit Superman's Hypersonic Speed? They would want to do this so that even if one of them is damaged and loses Outwit, the Hypersonic Speed would still be outwitted by the other. The problem is that the PAC states for Outwit "treat the target as if it does not have the cancelled power". So once the power is outwitted once, it cannot be outwitted again.

If it is possible to double Outwit, wouldn't it by extension be possible to Outwit a power that a character does not currently have? Example, Batman and Huntress are fighting V Sabretooth. Sabretooth is on his first click, with Charge, and standing in hindering terrain. Batman would outwit Stealth, whack Sabretooth, and then Sabretooth would not have Stealth and Huntress could attack him.

It seems to me that if the first scenario is possible, the second one would be as well, because of the quote from the PAC above. I'm asking this question because I saw someone double Outwit She Hulk's Charge in a tournament today.

[wonderboy8917]

I'm not sure about the first question with "double outwit", but I do know that for the second question, you can only outwit what is currently on the targets dial. You can not out future powers that may come up on the dial. This issue came up a long time ago as I remember it and that's how it was ruled.

The double outwit thing is a good question. I've never seen anyone want to waste two outwits on the same power, but it makes logical sense to want to do it in case you're worried about one of your outwitters getting hurt and loosing the power.
If I were the judge, I would allow it....but that's just me.

[Jackalope]

Well according to the PAC:

OUTWIT This character can use intelligence, experience, and luck to cancel one power of another character. (Optional) Once during your turn, this character may cancel a power on a target opposing character; treat the target as if it does not have the canceled power. That power remains canceled until the beginning of your next turn. This character must be within 10 squares of the target and have a clear line of fire to that figure. Instead of a power, you may choose to cancel an opposing flying figure’s ability to soar. The soaring figure is considered to be hovering for that turn. If this character loses Outwit or is defeated, the canceled power returns immediately. This power does not cost an action to use.

If the character does not have the power how can you outwit it? I really don't think you can "double" outwit something or outwit it before the character even gets it.

[Doctor Strange]

good question..

I could see it going either way.

Where are DoubleA, Herocomplex and Xanth?

[double_a]

I concur with Jackalope - you cannot outwit a power that the figure does not have. I'll also use his same quote as the appropriate rule: "treat the target as if it does not have the cancelled power."

Once a power is outwitted, the figure does not have that power to be outwitted again.

So you can't "double" outwit Impervious or have someone outwit Impervious and a second person outwit Toughness that you know the figure will have on the next click.

[Fuzzy]

Thanks for the help, guys. That's how I figured it would work out, based on that line from the PAC and related rulings (i.e. you can't outwit Superman Enemy Outwit, because it's not on the dial).

[Tsannik]

Where are DoubleA, Herocomplex and Xanth?
Tsannik gets no love? :(
you can't outwit Superman Enemy Outwit, because it's not on the dial).

Actually, the Superman Enemy team ability will grant the Outwit superpower to the highest point value figure as if that figure actually had the super power on the dial.

So, the Outwit gained from Superman enemy *CAN* be Outwitted.

[GroovyBoy]

<<Actually, the Superman Enemy team ability will grant the Outwit superpower to the highest point value figure as if that figure actually had the super power on the dial.>>


Where does it say the Superman Enemy t.a. Outwit works "as if that figure actually had the super power on the dial"?

[HeroComplex]

In addition to the PAC entry itself which states that the figure in question "has the Outwit super power," which is defined by a black square on the damage statistic, there is also the DC FAQ:The ability grants the Outwit power, so if the above conditions are met, it would be possible for an opposing character to Outwit this newly granted Outwit power.

[theZehrung]

If I understand this correctly: If Catwoman has a Outwit on her dial and plans to target Harley Quinn who has a Outwit on her dial...Catwoman uses her Outwit to cancel Harley's Outwit and Harley cannot use Outwit at all?

[theZehrung]

Yes or No? :(

[HeroComplex]

Yes.

[Shade]

Groovy, check the FAQ's. Anti Superman team ability says it puts it on there as if it were on the dial itself. It may also be used in conjuction with other damage super powers.