Outwit Abuse Theory: Wildcard Teams & Superman Enemy team ability

[AdamWarlock]

I'm pretty sure this wouldn't work, but I'm curious as to the exact reason why this would be the case.

Ok... you're playing a team with a bunch of Doombots (minions of doom team ability) and a representative from a bunch of different teams.

You declare that a doombot is a superman enemy. If he is adjacent to a higher point-cost Superman enemy or another MOD or spider man team figure that is also declared Superman enemy, that figure will gain outwit. You outwit an enemy's defensive ability then attack. You then declare that doombot a hydra member to help somebody else on a different action, causing for the adjacent figure to lose outwit, which would give the enemy its ability back if it would still have it after taking the damage (which it likely won't).

At this point; after the Hydra or whatever other non-Superman Enemy team action concludes, what is there exactly that stops you from declaring it a superman enemy once again, creating outwit on the adjacent guy once more and outwitting something else? I can't think of a specific rules thing that would forbid this, but it just seems too evil to be possible...

[Pip the Troll]

lol thatd be funny and i think yer right there is no specific rule
so if osmeone wants to be mean and starts to abuse that im sure they will erata it
lol
altho im sure most judges will just disallow it anyway its still a funny idea, unlimited outwit :)

cheers

[Zerous]

I'm glad you've asked the question. I did exactly what you are talking about to my friends on Friday. I'd outwit what I needed gone to hit and then revert to the Batman team ability, at which time what was outwitted before was gone, and then I'd just go back to Supes enemy. They had to give up because I could do anything!

Question is, just like you are saying, did we play it wrong?

[Pip the Troll]

well technically you didnt play it worng cause im pretty sure theres no rule against it
but i think there should be a rule against it, cause as you found out it really is unfair, ive used that combination but never really thought about usuing it that way and i gotta say its an aweosme idea but it hink it would take laot of the fun away making it to powerful
im sure as more people do it wizkids will figure out a way to make it more fair
i kinda hope that it will be each figure may only use outwit once per turn
no matter what
somethin like that
anywyas
cheers

[Doctor Strange]

I don't think thats correct by the current rules..

here is what outwit says..

"Once during your turn, this character may "turn off" a super power on a target character: treat this target...etc..."

This wording makes me think that even if the Doombot looses and then gains outwit durring the same turn, he still can only outwit once on any given turn.

[webhead817]

(D'oh, Strange beat me to it...)


From the PAC: "Once during your turn, this character may “turn off” a super power on a target character"

I think the once during your turn pretty much spells it out. It doesn't matter how many times a fig gains or loses the power, they still can only use it once per turn.

[Tsannik]

Well.... here is why..


Ther first part of Outwit states
OUTWIT. This character can use intelligence, experience and luck to cancel one super power of another character. (Optional) Once during your turn, this character may “turn off” a super power on a target character;

So, using your example, even though you could declare Supes Enemy again, the highest point figure could not use Outwit again because he had already used it once this turn.

Now, things do get weird id there are two figure with the same point cost. Say you have 2 E-Doombots named Doombot A and Doombot B. You can assign both of them Supes Enemy, but only one would receive Outwit (both are the exact same point value). You assign it to Doombot A and then he Outwits an opposing figure. Attack is made. Then Doombots go into Hydra effectively ending that Outwit. Then after the next action, you declare both Doombots Supes Enemy again.
If you give Outwit back to Doombot A this would be a moot action as Doombot A has already used Outwit. He cannot use it again this turn. But, the Outwit can be assigned to Doombot B who could then Outwit something (because he never used it this turn).

Does this help?

[Earnan]

Well, just typed up a long post, just realized I was quite wrong, then noticed Tsannik beat me to the answer anyway....

I give up...

WarlordEarnan

[Aron]

could two equal cost doombots could do it twice in one turn..?

One outwits, then changes, then changes back, the other gains outwit this time?


Neeeevermind...

[Tsannik]

could two equal cost doombots could do it twice in one turn..?

One outwits, then changes, then changes back, the other gains outwit this time?


Well... yea.... that's exactly what I was trying to explain in my lengthy post.

[Pip the Troll]

lol lazy us couldnt be bothered to read my PAC
thx for clear up tsannik

altho the superman enemey ability can still be baused
me i like this
anhilius = A
klaw = K
doombot = B
intergang medic = M


AKB
**M

with that setup you have 3 outwits in one turn
can be useful at ties
:)
cheers

[jolt]

doesn't the text say that the highest point value piece gains outwit? If there is no highest point value, then doesn't it make more sense that neither would get it? That would make more sense to me than saying that "neither meets the qualifier and so they both get outwit".

I don't know what the official ruling on this would be, but I would never allow both pieces to use Outwit when neither has met the qualifier for doing so.

jolt

[Tsannik]

doesn't the text say that the highest point value piece gains outwit? If there is no highest point value, then doesn't it make more sense that neither would get it? That would make more sense to me than saying that "neither meets the qualifier and so they both get outwit".

Well... okay....

When there are to equally costed figures:

E-Doombot A 33 points
E-Doombot B 33 points

The controlling player can choose which one gets the Outwit.
Both Doombots will not have Outwit at the same time (there is an exception that will not be discussed until this is understood).

So, I can do this:

E-Doombot A 33 points with Outwit
E-Doombot B 33 points

Doombot A then can Outwit something. Once their team membership changes, Doombot A will lose any Outwit that he currently had in effect.

Later in the turn, I can redeclare both Supes enemy again. And since they are equally costed, I can choose which one I want to have Outwit. Since A already had and used it, I'll assign to B

E-Doombot A 33 points (used Outwit)
E-Doombot B 33 points with Outwit

Doombot B can now Outwit as he didn't use Outwit during the turn.

[Kid Zemo]

Originally posted by jolt
doesn't the text say that the highest point value piece gains outwit? If there is no highest point value, then doesn't it make more sense that neither would get it?
Yeah, but the FAQ says:

If both adjacent Superman Enemies have the same point value, the controlling player chooses which one of them is granted the Outwit power.

Hope that heps.

Kid Zemo

[erkuther]

According to the FAQ, I don't think that scenerio will work......

"If a figure loses or “turns off” Outwit for any reason any power they were currently Outwitting is immediately reactivated"
(from the feb 14 faq)

also "Outwit cannot be used in the middle of an action. "

so, I the example you have stated, as soon as the doom bots switch away from the Sup Enemy ability, the "lose" the outwit power which would cause the outwited power to come back in full force. Since he couldn't outwit during the attack action, that would mean he would have to do it before the attack action, and would lose the power as soon as the doombot switched to hydra during the action. At least that is the way I would interperate the way you are using it


cheers

kuth

[jolt]

I can't fault your logic, Tsannik but I really don't like this.

If I have 2 superman enemies, A is 49 points and B is 50. I'll get Outwit once (for the 50 pointer)
If A is 50 and B is 51, then I'll get Outwit once (for the 51 pointer).
If both A and B are 50, then, potentially, they'll both get it. That makes no sense to me.

Another thing I don't like is the "double-dipping" of the Superman Enemy team ability. As per the FAQ, it is the granting of outwit that is the team ability, not the use of the outwit. You would never let an Avenger free move multiple times no matter how many times the Wildcard switched to it. Similarly, I don't think you should be able to double grant outwit either (using the same two pieces).

jolt

[jolt]

Kid Zemo: You're absolutely right, but I don't like it. See my above post for why.

I don't like that the team ability becomes, potentially, twice as useful just because both pieces have the same point value.

jolt

[erkuther]

after rereading the original statment, I edited my post on the previous page to make it more concise.


kuth

[jolt]

erkuther: You could do something like this:

The 2 Wildcard Supe Enemies (of the same point value) outwit another figs Impervious, let's say Grundy. Grundy then gets attacked by someone. Then they 2 Wildcards switch to another abililty. Later in that same turn, they switch back to Supe Enemy and Outwit Grundy's Impervious again, using the second of the two Wildcards this time. Grundy is then attacked again.

I really have a problem with that scenario, but, under the current rules, would be allowed, correct?

jolt

[Tsannik]

His scenario was a bit confusing, but this is how he did it.

Doombots declare Supes Enemy. Doombot A gets Outwit
Doombot A Outwit Toughness on Opposing figure 1
Friendly figure A attacks Opposing figure 1
Doombots switch team membership to Hydra
Friendly figure B attacks with Doombots providing Hydra.
Doombots switch team membership to Supes Enemy.
Doombot B gets Outwit.

Another thing I don't like is the "double-dipping"
You think that is bad.... no one has yet asked about 3 or more being adjacent to each other...

I have yet to touch on it because I want to make sure that *this* part of it is understood.

[jolt]

You think that is bad.... no one has yet asked about 3 or more being adjacent to each other...

I didn't want to bring up the R Intergang Agent surrounded by 8 R Intergang Agents. Hey! They're all the same point cost too! :)

This is just one case that I don't agree with the rules as written. It's really no biggie but I wanted people to understand why I don't like how it currently works.

jolt

[A_Higher_Level]

Originally posted by jolt
doesn't the text say that the highest point value piece gains outwit? If there is no highest point value, then doesn't it make more sense that neither would get it? That would make more sense to me than saying that "neither meets the qualifier and so they both get outwit".

I don't know what the official ruling on this would be, but I would never allow both pieces to use Outwit when neither has met the qualifier for doing so.

jolt

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Am I wrong here in thinking that once someone [B]loses[B] Outwit, the cancelled power is returned immediately?

Also, if you are a Superman Enemy, and Outwit someone's defense, you (or the Superman Enemy teammate) cannot then become a Hydra Team member to attack, cause it'll cancel the Superman Enemy team power, which then cancels Outwit, which then cancels the super power. Cause you [B]cannot use multiple team abilities simultaneously.[B]

[Tsannik]

His scenario was a bit confusing, but this is how he did it.

Doombots declare Supes Enemy. Doombot A gets Outwit .
Doombot A Outwit Toughness on Opposing figure 1.
Friendly figure A attacks Opposing figure 1 (who no longer has Toughness).
Doombots switch team membership to Hydra. (Opposing figure 1 regains Toughness)
Friendly figure B attacks Opposing figure 1 (who now has Toughness back) with Doombots providing Hydra.
Doombots switch team membership to Supes Enemy.
Doombot B gets Outwit.

Yeah... that's what he was saying... he got it correct.
But in the part I highlighted, he already attacked the opposing figure. He really doesn't need that Outwit anymore. So he decided to be Hydra to help out another one of his figures. Then went back to Supes Enemy to gain another Outwit.
Am I wrong here in thinking that once someone loses Outwit, the cancelled power is returned immediately
Nope, you're thinking correctly.

[A_Higher_Level]

PHEW!!!

It's good to know I'm not crazy... I'm just illiterate.

[Kiften]

Not to mention you could always declare ONE of the three figures as a Superman Enemy....outwit and attack...then make the SECOND of three figs a Supes enemy...attack... then make the THIRD...etc etc. They don't all have tob e Supes enemy at once.
Then point cost doesn't matter...think about it
If Annihilus is the ONLY one that is mimicing the Supes team ability, he is the highest priced Supes enemy fig...if he then switches to say Brotherhood (he doesn't have to move to switch teams as far as I know), and ANOTHER wildcard declares Supes Enemy, then THEY gain outwit...if they are the only fig on the board with Supes Enemy, they get it.
(This is of course assuming you're using a low level Supes enemy so all wildcards will be higher point costed than him the non wildcard supes enemy)
biggs

[ChicagoAvenger]

We now have a fairly obvious reason that Marvel and DC are intended to be played seperately for tournaments. The prevalence of cheap wildcards (doombots) in Marvel wasn't factored into the DC game. But, it's good that this came up now so WizKids can come up with an answer before the Legionaires start showing up in Cosmic Justice in July.

[Tsannik]

Not to mention you could always declare ONE of the three figures as a Superman Enemy....outwit and attack...then make the SECOND of three figs a Supes enemy...attack... then make the THIRD...etc etc. They don't all have tob e Supes enemy at once.
Then point cost doesn't matter...think about it
I'm thinking..... nope... at least two of those figures have to be Superman Enemy at the same time AND they have to be adjacent to each other.

[AdamWarlock]

I really don't think that even the "once per turn" restrains use of the "on, off, on, off, etc" MOD/SpiderMan Superman Enemy thingie.

I see it like this:
Figures with outwit can only use it once per turn.

Once the figure loses outwit, the ability outwitted returns as if it had never happened and all text of the ability, including the "once per turn" would be wiped from the dial.

If the figure regains outwit, theoretically, the "once per turn" would have been re-set as it did not have the ability a second ago. This isn't "Magic" with its sequence of events methods, and this is the first big handicap I've noticed from that.

[Tsannik]

Well... just like an outwitted power returning...

Once Outwit returned... it would immediately return back to the same status it was before.

Either way...

A figure can only use Outwit once... no matter how many times he gains/regains it.

Even if Outwit is lost.... the figure still did use if before it was lost. That status doesn't go away.

[capwolf]

Yeah I guess a good example would be a fig that had outwit on his first and third click but not his second. If he outwitted then took two clix of damage his outwit would effectively have been turned off then turned back on...but this wouldnt allow him to use outwit again that turn.

[Kiften]

Tsannik,
It's like the picture you mentioned...for instance

W=Wildcard
I= Intergang

.......I
W1W2W3

See? Make the first W a Supes enemy while the other two are something else, then outwit toughness/invuln and attack. Ok, now make the first W1 a member of a different team, then make the W2 a Supes Enemy team, and attack with him...then the W3...see what I mean Tsannik?
And it could be in other configs too

I
W1
W2
W3

As long as you make sure that the second W is higher cost than the first, and the second higher than the third, you could do this too... I and W1 are adjacent, and W1 gains outwit due to it being higher cost than I. It outwits and attacks. Then W2 gains Supes Enemy ability. It automatically gains outwit due to being higher costed. It outwits and attacks. Then W3 gains Supes ability. It gains outwit then attacks.
See what I mean Tsannik?
biggs

[Tsannik]

Well, now it makes sense Kiften.

I'm with ya', man.