stop bashing the X-Men and Brotherhood

[sluggo]

I see a lot people say that, right now, both of these teams are pretty usless and unplayable. This isn't true at all, both are very playable as they stand right now, they just require different stragities then most other teams do. If you are playing the Avengers you can split the team up into different groups and use hit and run tatics, same with Masters of Evil, the JLA and Superman Team (to name a few). This doesn't work for the X-Men or Brotherhood, but they are very playable teams.

With both teams instead of spliting everyone up in groups of 2 or 3 you need you keep them together and attack together. A combination of Magneto, Jugg's and Sabretooth or WOlverine, Rogue and Cyclops can take down almost any figure on the board. The best way to play the Brotherhood team is to slowly move the team forward together (I try to keep it so that theres always a couple figures able to attack without pushing) and us Pryo and Avalanche to make barriers to help cover the rest of the team. Keep the team positioned so that you slowly move towards your opponent, when they try to attack you make them pay for it by attacking 2 or 3 of your own guys in one turn. The X-Men are a bit harder since they don't ahve barrier yet (I'm guessing Iceman and Storm will have it) however the same stragity can work for them. Try to keep the team behind a building or something so they aren't targets for a whole team at once. Move the whole team together, Rogues' charge and Wolverines B/C/F can be a great 1,2 attack. Nightcrawler is the best hit and run character int he game and is great for filling both the "Toad" and "Quicksilver" role. And White Queen gets Outwit for 2 or 3 clixs, which can make Rogue, Wolverine and Cyclops even more deadly. But the X-Mens greatest advantage over other teams is Wolverines Regeneration, Rogues steal Engery, Jean Greys Support and the team ability. The team can keep its heavy hitters healthy and let others like Wolfsbane and those who can heal take some of their damage.

Once explosion comes out the Brotherhood should gain Dystiny, Mystique and Sauron (and maybe one version of Colossus). These shoulf give the team outwit or perplex which would really help them out. Mystique will probably be a good ranged combat figure freeing up Pryo to only make barriers. Sauron should bring more steal engery as well as Mind Control. And if the Vet or Exp. Colossus is on the team they will have 2 heavy hitters with S.S and Inv.

The X-men are gaining quiet a few figures with serveral powers, after this expansion the X-Men will probably one of, if not the best, well rounded team.

[JacinB]

Okay, then, how 'bout building a strong and effective 300pt. X-Men team? That'd be a more convincing argument that just listing the figures that a particular team employs.

Personally, for the points, there are simply better teams out there. Avengers is just one of them. Batman is another.

The problem with the X-Men is that the team ability is over-priced for its usefulness.

Just because they're better as a team than the Fantastic Four (which everyone agrees is the worst team in 'Clix), and Superman Ally (which has a grand total of 2 characters), that doesn't make them not suck ... it just means that they're better off that a couple of other teams.

[sluggo]

First I suggest checking out the Avengers v.s X-Men threads (3 of them) the X-Men beat the Avengers 2 out of 3 times.

A good 300 point X-Men team?.
Exp - Prof X
Unique - Nightcrawler
Exp- Wolverine
Vet. Jean Grey
Unique - Cyclops
300 pts.

Keep everyone close to each other. When someone moves in to threaten you, use Jean Grey to move Wolverine up to btb combate. Then use Cyclops and Nightcrawler to support him. Prof X to mind control and use your opponents figures against him. Use Jean to Heal your guys as they take damage and/or give Wolverine a few clix's from other hurt guys and then regen. You can also use vet Wolfsbane instead of Cyclops.

Exp - Prof X
Unique - Nightcrawler
Exp- Wolverine
Vet - Rogue

Use Rogue and Wolverine as a one two punch combo with Nightcrawler as support and Prof doing the same as before.

I will admit that both teams are better in higher point games, but they are not bad teams and neither sucks.

[JacinB]

Here's the main problem. For all of those X-Men you just listed for your 300pt team, there are other characters that can do what they do better and they occasionally do it for cheaper.

Here's the first example:
U Cyclops: Starting stats are 6, 9, 15, 1 (RCE). 10 Range, 2 targets. Cost: 39pts. Overall, that's not too bad. He's got a shallow dial, but it's not horrible.

V Bullseye: Starts at 6, 11, 16 (ES/D), 1 (RCE). 10 Range, 2 targets. Cost: 43pts. He's got an attack that's two points higher, a defense that a point higher, or three points higher against ranged attacks. Again, a shallow dial, but for only 4 more points he's a better attacker and better on defense.

Here's another example:
E Wolverine: Starting stats are 8 (Stealth), 10 (BCF), 15 (Toughness), and 2 with 7 clix of life. Not bad. But, for 61 points, you can do a lot better.

V Logan: Another incarnation of Wolverine, and possibly 'the best he is at what he does'. Starting stats are 8 (Stealth), 11, 16 (Toughness), and 3 damage. He's got 8 clix of life. He's got more Toughness, more Regeneration, better starting damage, and the potential to do 13 clix of damage in one turn. All for a point less than E Wolverine.

And another example:
E Professor X: A staple of any X-Men team is the mentor, right? Why? Just because he's the leader? His stats start at: 5 (MC), 10, 16 (Defend), 0 (Leadership). Defend with a 16 defense is laughable. Leadership is overpriced and often unneccessary when playing with over-priced X-Men, and his low movement means that he'll need to be taxied into position to be effective. For 67 points, he's not usually worth it. Especially not when you consider that for the price of him and a rookie medic, you could get ...

E White Queen: Mind Control. Psychic Blast. Super Senses. And Leadership (if you want it). Better starting movement. The ability to do 2 damage to even the biggest bruisers you might face. For just 13 points more than Xavier ... it's a tough call, but I'd say that she's the better choice.

Besides that, with both of the teams that you've posted, you're not going to be able to use all of your allotted actions without pushing someone. Generally, a 300pt. team needs around 6 characters to be effective. In one, you've only got 4 characters all of which have questionable effectiveness.

But, as Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

[Mr. Pilkington]

Regarding ther better figures for less cost arguement:
If you are worried about having the most efficient force then why are you even considering one that is all one team affiliation? Swapping Bullseye for U Cyclops may be more efficient, but you no longer have an X-men team. I got the impression that this thread was talking about teams that we mono-affiliated (i.e. all have the same team ability). If that is the case, can you come up with a Sinister Syndicate team that can do everything that the X-men teams posted can do? I don't think you can. If you are looking at it from a team ability perspective then each team can do things that the others cannot.

Yes, there are figures that are more efficient than others. But if you want a team theme to your force you take what you have and make the best of it.

[Keleko]

I like this X-Men team. I'm thinking of trying them out in tournament play to see how they hold up.

Nightcrawler
V-Cyclops
V-Jean Grey
V-Wolfsbane
E-Logan

Yeah, I know Logan doesn't have X-Men team affiliation. I think I can get away without it for him. The nice thing is none of the figures are wasted points on being a taxi or medic. 4 solid attackers and one to send them into battle and clean them up when they get hurt. Not many other teams have 4 attackers with 10+ attack. All of them, one way or another, can do at least 3 damage, too (Jean with a heavy object, Nightcrawler with Hypersonic attack). And I can heal my highest defense without making a roll. 3 of them can attack from 10 range (Jean with TK, Nightcrawler by running up and hitting, and Cyclops).

The other option with this team is to replace Nightcrawler with V-Professor X. That improves the attack average a bit, but I lose mobility.

[the itsy bit]

the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants already rules as a team !

it is a very effective team (when I get all the figs I need) and you already got most of them !!

X-men play pretty good, but you can't be too overaggressive (later when Xplosion comes out you can !) however they have some nice figs and are a good team !!
(If only I could get my Nightcrawler !!:rolleyes: )

[Phantom]

Just the combo of Beast and Nightcrawler should be pretty potent in most games. With Beast’s perplex on the team, you’ve got Nightcrawler finally making the jump from harasser to heavyweight – a 14-square Hypersonic character who can do 3 damage. Here’s one example of an X-Men team (using either existing characters or characters who have been verified in terms of abilities and point values by Wizkids themselves – ie, no using the pineapple):

Nightcrawler
Phoenix
V Beast
V Jean Grey
R Psylocke

This team gives you a lot of mobility due to TK, two characters with Support (one early game and one late game), a character with a 12-square ranged attack, who can be Enhanced or Perplexed to do up to 4 damage, and a nearly-untouchable Hypersonic character who can be boosted up to 3 damage. If you’re against dupes of any type, then Jean Grey can be substituted for Wolfsbane.

[sluggo]

JacinB, yes some other figures are better then some of the X-Men members, but as Mr. Pilkington pointed out they aren't on the team and I'm talking about the X-Men as a team. Plus when Bullseye takes a hit, thats it, hes taken a hit. Cyclops can at least shrug off some damage and get back to a more powerful clix.

And Prof X is a stable of X-Men teams because hes a good figure. Hes got a 9,10, or 11 attack with mind control. The X-Men don't have someone with S.S (at least not yet), have Prof. X take over the mind of one (even better if you have to make the guy push and take a clix himself) and use him. Another good tatict to use with the X-Men so to use Prof X to mind-control someone into a square where Wolverine, Rogue, Wolfsbane, Nightcrawler and Cyclops can all hit him.

And ya, Beast looks like a great "toad" like piece. Use him to deliver the finishing attack to a figure that some other X-Men have already hurt. One of the first things I thought of with Beast, is that you can use his perplex on Jean Grey to help heal people (since her attack sucks), which is always helpful.

The key to winning with an X-Men or Brotherhood is TEAM WORK, much more so then most other teams.

[Keleko]

Originally posted by sluggo
One of the first things I thought of with Beast, is that you can use his perplex on Jean Grey to help heal people (since her attack sucks), which is always helpful.


You can't use Perplex with Support. As the Support power says, "Ignore all modifiers to the close combat attack". Perplex is a modifier and therefore ignored.

[Thunderbolts]

This argument only holds true if you phrase it as 'The X-Men and the Brotherhood suck... compared to the Avengers,' and that's only true because everyone sucks compared to the Avengers right now. Once XPlosion is out the X-Men will be just as good, if not better, and possibly the Brotherhood too (though I don't expect huge things of the confirmed Brotherhood figures).

As more and more tournaments introduce their own rules about a player using figures from only one 'team' (with one or two extra supporting figs allowed), the functionality of teams is becoming more important. Plus it makes planning your lineup more fun and theme-oriented, as opposed to 'well I could use Cyclops with these X-Men, but what's the point, I'll just go with Bullseye.... actually forget that, I'll use Firelord.'

Personally, I love the move towards theme-teams. Now all we need is Wiz to add a bonus or incentive for same-team teams and we're rockin'.

EDIT: I was only including Marvel teams in the above - Batman team kicks ###, probably JLA too. Wild Card teams weren't included because I assumed they had no team abilities within their groups to actually copy.

[sluggo]

"'The X-Men and the Brotherhood suck... compared to the Avengers" - Well like I have said, the X-Men have won 2 or 3 X-men v.s Avengers battles on this thread so far. Sure Thor is harder to hit and/or hurt then say Wolverine, but Thor can't heal.

"Batman team kicks ###" - They are good, but I find them kind of a one trick pony team (I have the whole team, except for Catwoman). The team is great against a ranged based team, but once you get a couple Superman Ally's (or one and a wildcard) along with a few btb guys and the team is kinda weak. Nightwing becomes pretty usless after the first 2 or 3 clixs. Robin and Huntress stand no chance. Only Batman and Catwoman could be a problem in btb Combat. I like all the figures(why I searched them out), but I would tend to use them as part of a mixed team (when you can use a heavy btb guy to protect them, Nightwing is a GREAT support figure) rather then a team all to themselves, but thats me.

[Thunderbolts]

Well, yeah, that's kind of the point of Heroclix - mix and match to get the best team possible. :)

[sluggo]

Sometimes, but sometimes its also fun to play a whole team and some tournments are "team" tournments where you need to play a whole team. IN those battles the stragity to use against the Batman team is pretty simple. I would bet the Brotherhood could beat the Batman team. keep Pryo and Avalanche out of range of the outwit on the Batman team and use them to use barriers to take away the Batman teams ranged attacks. And then target them one or two at a time and go base to base with them. I just don't think Robin, Nightwing or even batman could last long against Jugg's, Sabretooth, and Toad - those 3 (if I've added right) have the ability to do more then 12 damage in one turn. THe only figure that would cause a lot of problems would be catwoman.

"Defend with a 16 defense is laughable" - Depends when its used and on who. If Prof. X uses his depend with Cyclops (if you are using the Vet.) it gives Cyclops a defense of 18 against long ranged attacks. Also if Prof. X doesn't take any damage or is at full strenght near the end of the game a 16 defense can be almost impossible to beat.

[Phantom]

Batman Allies should be toast against the X-Men or the Brotherhood. X-Men currently have one solid Charger (Vet Rogue) and a Hypersonic character. They're getting at least one more Charge character in Beast, as well as a total of two TKers. That's pretty much all you need to destroy a Batman team -- someone who can get into close combat with them right away and destroy them. With the exception of Catwoman, the whole team is pretty weak in close combat, with no defensive powers and low starting defenses.

Brotherhood has three Chargers (Sabretooth, Toad, and Blob), who can all do 2-3 damage minimum to start, and Magneto has a nearly full dial of TK. Juggernaut has the single strongest defense in the game and pretty decent attack values. His damage drops down to one, but that's not a problem here since the Bat-team can't soak it. The team is also loaded with great cheap guys like Pyro and Avalanche. And we haven't even begun to see the design notes for the rest of the team. If they have one weakness, it's their lack of healing.

[shin-goji]

OR...you could play Brotherhood and X-Men because it's fun. It's just an idea. Bullseye may be better point for point than Cyclops, but it all boils down to the personality of the player.

[Spiritual_Ex]

"Defend with a 16 defense is laughable"

At the beginning of a battle it is fairly moot, however, as the battle rages on if you can keep Charles from being hit, wounded players on the opposing team will often find 16 a challenge. Cyclops could be down to his last few clicks and still be somewhat effective because of the high defence.

Just my opinion.

[PantherPriest]

I agree with you every bit of the way, sluggo. The xmen must be played as a team, not a group of indviduals with the same objective, they must work together like no other team. When used effectively the team ability can save your a##, trading around damage can pull you back out of nowhere, and it reduces the need for a medic. The problem is that people are not creative with their heroclix strategies so they stay away from the xmen. Read the comics you'll be suprised how many ideas you can get from watching the xmen fight together.
I've been making succesful xteams long before nightcrawler, who has too much defense personally, I will admit that my favorite xmen aren't around yet, but the xmen work together fine: key word together

I really don't see why people rag on the brotherhood, they are a pretty typical team with their equal of close and ranged combat fighters.

And when did the world agree that ff4 is the worst team in clix? I will never agree to that statement, they are a very good team to field, especially the 400 version. They are a family and must be played as one, not a team mind you but a family. Most of them work best in their own team enviornments, like mr.fantastic who has the most outwit of any character anywhere. My only complaints is Johnnys attack during his nova flare clik. It will be a challenge for them to fight a 400 avenger team(with out thor to take up points.) but it can be done.

[Wileyone]

Personally, I like the Brotherhood better than any other team, period! They are the Ultimate Swarm team. They are great low cost figures that are extremely effective. Their team ability (action advantage) plays better for them than for the Avengers because the cheap Avengers don't do as much damage as cheap Brotherhood. As soon as you start throwing in better damage for the Avengers then you increase point cost which reduces the number of figures. Frankly, I pound on the Avengers pretty regularily. (Maybe, I'm just better than my friends but I doubt it).

For the Brotherhood or Avengers to best utilize their action advantage, you really shouldn't make them all from the same team. There is not a great advantage of moving all of your figures on one turn and then pushing or passing on the next turn. Either you surrender your action advantage or you damage your figure.
In a 300pt team everyone knows 6 figures is prime for using 6 actions over 2 turns (3 figures per turn). But, if you select 6 Brotherhood figures and 6 lackies (12 figures) then you can move 6 figures every turn (3 free and 3 alloted). This gives you twice the number of actions of your opponent. Now, actually getting 12 figures with any that can dish out damage is tough. But, I can get 10 figures on a Brotherhood team with 3 good attackers and have 5 actions vs 3............It plays big!!!!

Whoever, said the Brotherhood wasn't playable can eat my socks!

The opponent has to waste time killing 9pt rookie hydra operatives while I put his better figures out of the game. It's like Chess. Force him to deal with your little pieces and take away his big pieces.

You should really put lackies on every team. It gives you more figures to use for tieing up the opponent and slowing him down not to mention locking doorways or providing a walking barrier. I don't care if the opponent has leap/climb or phasing...if he's moving then he's not fighting. This is another advantage for the Brotherhood since I can afford to have extra figures doing nothing but walking around while still getting attacks in every turn. I have more actions to use and you will end up wasting time. The Hydra have the advantage of giving me +1 to hit without costing another action. The +1 to hit is just what Pyro, Avalanche and Magneto need. (less so for Magneto but sometimes it helps). And, You can often get +2 to hit (2 hydra's).

The X-Men have given me some troubles because of their cost, (I like lots of figures). But, I expect X-plosion will give them many more lost cost options. The Shield members work well with the X-men even if it's not themed. They can use your otherwise un-used actions for +1 damage.

I love themes and generally try to follow a theme but a little spice is nice. You often see "guest apperances" in comics where somebody (not from that comic series) shows up and joins the fight. If half of your figures are from one team, and you limit the other half to lackies and a "guest apperance" then It still seems themed to me.