View Full Version : Norman Osborne's Sanity and the Beginning of the Game
When does the beginning of the game end? Specifically with regards to the previewed Norman Osborne figure:
http://heroclix.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Norman-Osborne-Preview.jpg
Which I'm too lazy to type out the text that I can't select. Is he on the map during "the beginning of the game"? Can his Unbalanced roll be affected by Probability Control?
Pages 4-5:
PREPARING FOR BATTLE
Once all players have assembled their forces, there are still a few steps to go through before the battle can begin.
STEP 1: REVEAL FORCES AND ESTABLISH THE FIRST PLAYER
{snip}
STEP 2: CHOOSE STARTING AREAS
{snip}
STEP 3: PLACE CHARACTERS
{snip}
Once Steps 1–3 are complete, play begins with the first player.
The game begins after characters are placed.
Based on the "hierarchy" we have with other things (beginning of the round happens before the beginning of the turn, etc.), the beginning of the game would happen before the beginning of the round, which is before the beginning of any turn. As it would be nobody's turn, you could not use PC.
What about for Theme Teams?
i.e. Norman Osborn has many more keywords than any of his egos. If he is on a HAMMER theme team, but his SP roll will only let him change into Green Goblin...if he changes, is it *poof!* good-bye Theme Team?
:ermm:
RavenProject
06/29/2010, 22:28
What about for Theme Teams?
i.e. Norman Osborn has many more keywords than any of his egos. If he is on a HAMMER theme team, but his SP roll will only let him change into Green Goblin...if he changes, is it *poof!* good-bye Theme Team?
:ermm:
It was established with Walter Kovacs/Rorschach that the keywords on the replacement figure don't matter, only the original.
-J
What about for Theme Teams?
i.e. Norman Osborn has many more keywords than any of his egos. If he is on a HAMMER theme team, but his SP roll will only let him change into Green Goblin...if he changes, is it *poof!* good-bye Theme Team?
:ermm:
No. It's no different than, say dropping down to two guys on a generic 300 point theme team.
Pages 4-5:
The game begins after characters are placed.
Based on the "hierarchy" we have with other things (beginning of the round happens before the beginning of the turn, etc.), the beginning of the game would happen before the beginning of the round, which is before the beginning of any turn. As it would be nobody's turn, you could not use PC.
Thank you for the clear explanation of why. That really does help.
The Decepticons
06/29/2010, 22:51
ah, i figured that this would be coming. while not related dirrectly to the question, but related to the character; ever notice that you have a one third chance of being able to change to Iron Patriot, and a two thirds for the Green Goblin. Oddly enough i think it may lead to a design blunder from a playable standpoint.
Say you want to use Osborn and obviously be able to "phonebooth" him into another character, the problem is now that you cant choose to get Iron Patriot every time, you might get Goblin. And Goblin is an Sr, so if you dont have a Goblin, but have the Iron Patriot your not even guarenteed to be able to use it when you do your Sanity roll. So now it begs the question... why bother to play Osborn if you didnt crack open a Green Goblin
Ok... ignoring all of this though, i think the Alter Ego mechanic is deceint. Id like to use Osborn... so guess im going to have to get a Green Goblin first. Great idea to give you somewhat of a choice of changing into 2 differant figs though. i should of posted this last month when i saw the pictures of the three of them.
ah, i figured that this would be coming. while not related dirrectly to the question, but related to the character; ever notice that you have a one third chance of being able to change to Iron Patriot, and a two thirds for the Green Goblin. Oddly enough i think it may lead to a design blunder from a playable standpoint.
How so?
On a 1-2 you put on no token. (1/3 chance)
On a 3-4 you put on a token. (1/3 chance)
On a 5-6 you have the choice. (1/3 chance for a 50/50 decision)
You have just as much chance of one as you do the other.
Say you want to use Osborn and obviously be able to "phonebooth" him into another character, the problem is now that you cant choose to get Iron Patriot every time, you might get Goblin. And Goblin is an Sr, so if you dont have a Goblin, but have the Iron Patriot your not even guarenteed to be able to use it when you do your Sanity roll. So now it begs the question... why bother to play Osborn if you didnt crack open a Green Goblin
Why bother to play Shimmer without Mammoth?
Why bother to play Blue Beetle without a Booster Gold?
And do your friends hate you that much that nobody will let you borrow one? ;)
So now it begs the question... why bother to play Osborn if you didnt crack open a Green Goblin
The general consensus on the AE ability discussion thread in the main board is that Alter Ego abilities are best treated as a bonus, not something you plan on accomplishing, since so many things can go wrong with them anyway (AE ability outwitted, damage skips over white powers, can't afford the action at the critical moment, etc.). This just adds a bit more vagary to the possibility of something going wrong.
vlad3theimpaler
06/29/2010, 23:55
How so?
On a 1-2 you put on no token. (1/3 chance)
On a 3-4 you put on a token. (1/3 chance)
On a 5-6 you have the choice. (1/3 chance for a 50/50 decision)
You have just as much chance of one as you do the other.
Why bother to play Shimmer without Mammoth?
Why bother to play Blue Beetle without a Booster Gold?
And do your friends hate you that much that nobody will let you borrow one? ;)
I probably wouldn't play shimmer without Mammoth, or that Blue Beetle without Booster Gold, because I'd feel like I'm shortchanging myself by paying points for an ability that I can't use.
In much the same way, I don't play figures with minion abilities if I don't have their leaders, and I don't play any of the alter ego characters that are already out if I don't have the other figure to swap.
(sealed tournaments are the obvious exception to this, because then all team-building ultimatums go out the window.)
The general consensus on the AE ability discussion thread in the main board is that Alter Ego abilities are best treated as a bonus, not something you plan on accomplishing, since so many things can go wrong with them anyway (AE ability outwitted, damage skips over white powers, can't afford the action at the critical moment, etc.). This just adds a bit more vagary to the possibility of something going wrong.
But if they factor in the cost of the piece from a design standpoint, which I would have to assume they do, they're not a bonus. They're part of the cost of the figure, and if you can't use that ability, you're not getting the full bang for your buck.
Edit: P.S. Harpua, if you pull a Green Goblin, and I don't, I'm absolutely going to hold you to that bit about letting a friend borrow it.:cheeky:
Herrbrane
06/30/2010, 00:26
ah, i figured that this would be coming. while not related dirrectly to the question, but related to the character; ever notice that you have a one third chance of being able to change to Iron Patriot, and a two thirds for the Green Goblin. Oddly enough i think it may lead to a design blunder from a playable standpoint.
Its the other way around where you have a 100% of being able to turn into Iron patriot and 1/3 chance of being able to turn into Green Goblin. If you roll a 1-4 you add a sanity token and on 5-6 you can choose to add a sanity token.
commandercool
06/30/2010, 00:30
Its the other way around where you have a 100% of being able to turn into Iron patriot and 1/3 chance of being able to turn into Green Goblin. If you roll a 1-4 you add a sanity token and on 5-6 you can choose to add a sanity token.
No. On a 1-2 the power doesn't say to do anything, which means you DO NOT put a token on. Why would you get a token on a 1-4 if the power only says 3-4. It's an even chance to get either.
But if they factor in the cost of the piece from a design standpoint, which I would have to assume they do, they're not a bonus. They're part of the cost of the figure, and if you can't use that ability, you're not getting the full bang for your buck.
Only if they factor in the full cost, which I think it's pretty clear that they don't.
Look at the four extant AE "before" figures and ignore the AE ability. Your mileage may vary, but while Clark is ridiculously overcosted, Bruce Wayne and Jason Blood are only somewhat expensive for what he's bringing to the table on their own, and Diana Prince is basically just fine. That's like getting her potential three clicks of Wonder Woman for free as far as I'm concerned. None of them (except Clark) are getting the full value of their other-dial clicks put into their cost, and Clark... I don't know what happened with Clark, he's just outright badly designed in my opinion. (I may change my mind when I play him in a few weeks, but it's not looking good to me at the moment.) Norman Osborne seems to be paying a bit more for his AE than Bruce or Jason (and a lot more than WW), but he's still not paying for the full value, I think. This one I could see having different opinions on, though, as he is somewhat expensive for what he brings, but Master Mind pieces seem to get an undeserved boost to their points, possibly to give them more fodder to use!
Again, your mileage may vary, and if this discussion gets any more in depth, we should probably move it off the rules board.
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