View Full Version : Mysterio's Trait
madslaust
07/27/2010, 09:27
Here's the trait, thanks to Grumpygoat:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
So, I'm curious about turn resolution. Smoke Cloud goes away at the beginning of your turn, just like your Outwit and Barrier. But, is it before the turn starts or as a sub-section of the turn?
If Smoke Cloud goes away before the actual turn, it really has no impact on Super Senses. But since it's icluded with Indom/Willpower, I'm probably reading it wrong.
Thoughts?
Ginormous
07/27/2010, 09:30
My only thought is if they end their turn in Mysterio's hindering, then you would have to use smoke cloud again to take away the super senses.
Deadpool101
07/27/2010, 09:33
I think you're misinterpreting the intent of the power. He has smoke cloud, and the trait says that any figure that is in a hindering square placed by Mysterio (smoke cloud) can't use those 3 powers. So either you can use it before you attack someone like Spider-man to take away his supersenses, or at the end of your turn and place it under guys like the new Thor or someone else who has willpower/indom so that they have to take a click if they push the next turn.
When it returns to your turn again the smoke cloud clears and everything goes back to normal.
Ginormous
07/27/2010, 09:35
Oh, that makes sense. It's not, "if thy began the turn in a Square containing Mysterio hindering." It's just that square.
Questions
07/27/2010, 09:36
So, I'm curious about turn resolution. Smoke Cloud goes away at the beginning of your turn, just like your Outwit and Barrier. But, is it before the turn starts or as a sub-section of the turn?
Just to answer this part (which does not matter for this trait), the beginning of your next turn would be part of that next turn.
From p. 6 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:
Before the first player takes his or her turn in a round, effects that occur “at the beginning of a round” resolve. When a player begins his or her turn, first resolve and end all effects that last “until the beginning of your turn”, then resolve all effects that occur “at the beginning of your turn”. If there exist multiples of one of these types of effects, the active player resolves them in any order.
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Use Mysterio to put up a smoke cloud as your first action targeting a square that Spiderman is in. Now he can't use super senses since he started your turn in that square. Seams reasonable.
I type slow.
jbship628
07/27/2010, 09:36
I think you are reading too much into the trait and comparing it to Book of Destiny, which is worded completely differently.
To me, there are 2 clauses in that trait.
1) Is the character occupying a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio?
2) Was that character in that square (hindering terrain marker or not) at the beginning of the turn?
If yes to both, then the effect takes place. (No Super Senses, Indomitable, or Willpower)
I believe they had to word the power that way so characters could not simply move out of the smoke and get their Indomitable and Willpower back. If you had to be in the smoke at the beginning of the turn, then it would all be one clause. It would read:
"Characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio at the beginning of any turn can't use Super Senses, Indomitable or Willpower."
Questions
07/27/2010, 09:45
On a side note, assuming the rules stay the same Indomitable seems unnecessary since a character that cannot use Willpower cannot use Indomitable since using Indomitable is using Willpower.
songwriterz
07/27/2010, 09:54
On a side note, assuming the rules stay the same Indomitable seems unnecessary since a character that cannot use Willpower cannot use Indomitable since using Indomitable is using Willpower.
LOL - I think they were just covering all their bases to cut off any possible arguments before they begin. Since it only adds a word and a comma to the description, I'm glad they did it.
ShadowMark
07/27/2010, 15:09
Here's the trait, thanks to Grumpygoat:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
So, I'm curious about turn resolution. Smoke Cloud goes away at the beginning of your turn, just like your Outwit and Barrier. But, is it before the turn starts or as a sub-section of the turn?
If Smoke Cloud goes away before the actual turn, it really has no impact on Super Senses. But since it's icluded with Indom/Willpower, I'm probably reading it wrong.
Thoughts?
I interpret it as this:
Mysterio places Smoke Cloud Hindering on a character with Willpower/ Indom and one on a character with Super Senses. My turn ends, my opponents turn starts. Since his figures began the turn in the square if hindering placed by Mysterio, they cannot use the powers.
His turn ends and his characters are still in the Smoke Cloud terrain placed by Mysterio. Even though the SC resolves before effects start (as quoted by questions), they still were in it at the beginning of the next turn. Were they not?
I would think it would not matter the order of the SC resolution, because the next turn started, (my turn) and they were in it. So, the Super Senses could not be used
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 15:26
Couple of points. A character has to START the turn in the smoke to lose the powers. So no you could not put smoke under a character and take the SS away that turn. Shadowmark was right. You put it under an opposing character, preferably one who just did an action and has a token. That way on the opponents turn if they try to get away they take a push, even IF they have Will or Indom, thanks to the sp. If they stay there and clear, they START THE TURN in the smoke, even as the smoke is being removed. It is removed in the beginning of a turn, so yes, your power is both gone AND your not in the smoke for hindering bonuses. Very good power to mess with a Spidey fig or a spidey like fig. Even at 75 points and fairly crappy stats, I want it.
UniqueLoginNamor
07/27/2010, 15:27
I interpret it as this:
Mysterio places Smoke Cloud Hindering on a character with Willpower/ Indom and one on a character with Super Senses. My turn ends, my opponents turn starts. Since his figures began the turn in the square if hindering placed by Mysterio, they cannot use the powers.
His turn ends and his characters are still in the Smoke Cloud terrain placed by Mysterio. Even though the SC resolves before effects start (as quoted by questions), they still were in it at the beginning of the next turn. Were they not?
I would think it would not matter the order of the SC resolution, because the next turn started, (my turn) and they were in it. So, the Super Senses could not be used
No quite. Read it again. If they are in the smoke and in the square they started in, not if they start in smoke.
I smoke cloud. You Black Spidey hasn't been moved this turn. I attack. He is in hindering and in the square he started in. Thus no Super Sense. The attack knocks him into Willpower.
Your turn. Spidey is in smoke and in the square he started in. he can't use Willpower, Now if he moves then he won't be there anymore so he has willpower whether he is in the smoke or not.
Couple of points. A character has to START the turn in the smoke to lose the powers. So no you could not put smoke under a character and take the SS away that turn. Shadowmark was right. You put it under an opposing character, preferably one who just did an action and has a token. That way on the opponents turn if they try to get away they take a push, even IF they have Will or Indom, thanks to the sp. If they stay there and clear, they START THE TURN in the smoke, even as the smoke is being removed. It is removed in the beginning of a turn, so yes, your power is both gone AND your not in the smoke for hindering bonuses. Very good power to mess with a Spidey fig or a spidey like fig. Even at 75 points and fairly crappy stats, I want it.
Really where does it say when they start their turn? It only says if they are in the square. Nothing about moving into it or starting the turn, only that they are in it.
If the SC is removed then they can use the powers since they are no longer in the SC.
Mr.x_20xx
07/27/2010, 15:37
Honestly I think it works in both situations. The reason I see the wording for "began the current turn in that square", is this: You place the markers (your turn), then on the opponent's turn, they simply can't move/RS/charge/HS out of the mist and not take pushing damage anymore. By crudely putting that wording, they have no choice but to take any pushing damage, in or out of the smoke. However the proper wording should have been this instead:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy or begin their turn in a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower.
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 15:38
Really where does it say when they start their turn? It only says if they are in the square. Nothing about moving into it or starting the turn, only that they are in it.
If the SC is removed then they can use the powers since they are no longer in the SC.
Sp is still active on Mysterios card but I think UniqueLoginNamor made a good point. It doesnt say start in the square with the smoke, it says started in a square and smoke is there. So yeah I guess thats how it works you put it in there and so long as you didn't TK them into a square with it or Mind Controled them into it or anyother shenanigans, they lose the SS and WP and Indom. Dang, better then I thought.
Thanks UniqueLoginNamor and Maraud, you guys are right.
ShadowMark
07/27/2010, 15:41
Here's the trait, thanks to Grumpygoat:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
They have to be in the SC square at the beginning. You cannot SC during your turn to remove someone's super senses. They lose Willpower/ Indom on their turn after you use SC, but they have to be in the SC square at the Beginning of your turn to make Super Senses useless.
ShadowMark
07/27/2010, 15:46
=UniqueLoginNamor;4877072]No quite. Read it again. If they are in the smoke and in the square they started in, not if they start in smoke.
What? you have me confused here. In smoke and starting square? Not just smoke. What is the difference?
I smoke cloud. You Black Spidey hasn't been moved this turn. I attack. He is in hindering and in the square he started in. Thus no Super Sense. The attack knocks him into Willpower.
Your smoke cloud would have no effect on Super Senses, because it says I have to be in the Smoke at the beginning of the turn.
Your turn. Spidey is in smoke and in the square he started in. he can't use Willpower, Now if he moves then he won't be there anymore so he has willpower whether he is in the smoke or not.
I started in the SC placed by Myesterio. I do not have Willpower. Moving or not does not change this.
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 15:53
.
Your smoke cloud would have no effect on Super Senses, because it says I have to be in the Smoke at the beginning of the turn.
No it doesn't. if they began the current turn in that square Thats what it says. So you start the turn in square. Then I put the smoke in that square you started in. You now have no SS or will or indom. Thats all it is saying. Another example of poor wording making things much more difficult then it should be. They did it this way so you cou7ldn't tk, mindcontrol or anything else on your turn and move someone into a big clump and throw out the smoke. They gotta clump on their own.
ShadowMark
07/27/2010, 16:01
No it doesn't. if they began the current turn in that square Thats what it says. So you start the turn in square. Then I put the smoke in that square you started in. You now have no SS or will or indom. Thats all it is saying. Another example of poor wording making things much more difficult then it should be. They did it this way so you cou7ldn't tk, mindcontrol or anything else on your turn and move someone into a big clump and throw out the smoke. They gotta clump on their own.
That virtually makes no sense. Because then you could TK Mysterio to the character and use smoke cloud on the character. I see your view on it, it is just worded horribly to cause this confusion. I still think they would have to be in the SC square when they begin their turn.
If it does work the way you say it, I may not be trading any Mysterio dupes after all
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 16:14
That virtually makes no sense. Because then you could TK Mysterio to the character and use smoke cloud on the character. I see your view on it, it is just worded horribly to cause this confusion. I still think they would have to be in the SC square when they begin their turn.
If it does work the way you say it, I may not be trading any Mysterio dupes after all
Yes you could TK Mysterio up and throw his smoke, and it would take the listed powers away. Alittle less comic booky where it takes time for the gas to take effect, but much better in game terms. Sorry but I really can't see it working the other way anymore.
ShadowMark
07/27/2010, 16:18
Yes you could TK Mysterio up and throw his smoke, and it would take the listed powers away. Alittle less comic booky where it takes time for the gas to take effect, but much better in game terms. Sorry but I really can't see it working the other way anymore.
After reading it, and re-reading it, then reading it some more. I think I agree and see how it is now. Very interesting trait, and I will be trying for multiples:cool: Thanks for clarifying
normalview
07/27/2010, 16:20
For what it is worth, I agree that it isn't as clear as it could be (which is why I haven't posted before) and we've already begun discussing this in the Deputy Cave.
More info to follow soon, I hope.
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 16:41
Thanks norm! I always spout off, but I like to see orange there just the same!
normalview
07/27/2010, 16:45
Thanks norm!
Every time someone says this, I look around for nbperp. I really think he should change his name so I don't get confused :laugh:
Dragon_Rose
07/27/2010, 16:51
Every time someone says this, I look around for nbperp. I really think he should change his name so I don't get confused :laugh:
de of him to use tyhe sam n
ick
I now, right? How rude of him to go by Norm when clearly that is your handles nickname!:angry:
nivlac713
07/27/2010, 16:54
Every time someone says this, I look around for nbperp. I really think he should change his name so I don't get confused :laugh:
Haha sorry. Just easier to type out norm then normalview. Me is lazy. I shall try to type out normal at the least, but I make no promises.
Hero_guy
07/27/2010, 16:58
Haha sorry. Just easier to type out norm then normalview. Me is lazy. I shall try to type out normal at the least, but I make no promises.
"Man" or "Sir" is actually one letter less than "Norm" and would also clear up the confusion. Or cause more confusion among the males who post/read the thread. Either way, it will lead to good times. :p
Ah, obviously we're coming from the "eats shoots and leaves" school of clarity with this one.
refrusdraob
07/27/2010, 17:22
Haha sorry. Just easier to type out norm then normalview. Me is lazy. I shall try to type out normal at the least, but I make no promises.
i hereby state that we should from now on refer to normalview, as "view" and nbperp, can be "norm", this would make it more simple and allow normalview to not be paranoid that the RA is over his shoulder lol, but just a suggestion
vlad3theimpaler
07/27/2010, 20:43
On a side note, assuming the rules stay the same Indomitable seems unnecessary since a character that cannot use Willpower cannot use Indomitable since using Indomitable is using Willpower.
I suspect that this power was written before they changed the wording of indomitable and the extra wording was never edited out.
i hereby state that we should from now on refer to normalview, as "view" and nbperp, can be "norm", this would make it more simple and allow normalview to not be paranoid that the RA is over his shoulder lol, but just a suggestion
I still believe that the proper solution is to refer to the deputies as the Stepford Cuckoos and Norm as Emma Frost. (yet every time I say that, I'm afraid that Harpua is going to actually find a costume somewhere to dress up like that.)
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 10:28
Isn't willpower used at the end of an action? So, if my Mysterio smoke clouds under your hiding Skrull Ms. Marvel, she can just HSS, end the movement in a different square and not take pushing. This is how I think it would work, because I know if I have super senses, give a character a second action token, deal damage to a mystic, take a click of mystic damage, then fall to willpower, I don't take a push.
Isn't willpower used at the end of an action? So, if my Mysterio smoke clouds under your hiding Skrull Ms. Marvel, she can just HSS, end the movement in a different square and not take pushing. This is how I think it would work, because I know if I have super senses, give a character a second action token, deal damage to a mystic, take a click of mystic damage, then fall to willpower, I don't take a push.
It doesn't matter if you move or not. The wording of the Trait covers that:
Here's the trait, thanks to Grumpygoat:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
See the part that I bolded above. So even if they move, they can't use Indomitable, Willpower or Super Senses.
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 11:39
It doesn't matter if you move or not. The wording of the Trait covers that:
See the part that I bolded above. So even if they move, they can't use Indomitable, Willpower or Super Senses.
Yup yup. You COULD try to take out Mysterio before the pushing damage happens. That would work. Or outwit. But just moving squares does not help you as after you start the turn in a square and there is smoke from mysterio there at anypoint, you lose the powers for the ENTIRE turn. Good, good power. Flash bang anyone?
Yup yup. You COULD try to take out Mysterio before the pushing damage happens. That would work. Or outwit. But just moving squares does not help you as after you start the turn in a square and there is smoke from mysterio there at anypoint, you lose the powers for the ENTIRE turn. Good, good power. Flash bang anyone?
Outwit doesn't work on his Trait ;) But yeah, just try taking him out. Of course there is the Super Senses and the Probability Control to worry about too :eek:
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 12:55
It doesn't matter if you move or not. The wording of the Trait covers that:
See the part that I bolded above. So even if they move, they can't use Indomitable, Willpower or Super Senses.
They wouldn't currently be occupying that square, thus failing the very first line of the check.
So, you go to use willpower. Are you in a square containing hindering created by Mysterio? Nope. Then he's not stopping you from using Willpower.
normalview
07/28/2010, 13:04
never mind. misread the question.
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 13:14
Outwit doesn't work on his Trait ;) But yeah, just try taking him out. Of course there is the Super Senses and the Probability Control to worry about too :eek:
His trait no. His Smoke cloud? Yes. :>
Edit: looking at it though, that probably would not save you the turn of the outwit. Power checks at the begining of the turn after all.... Man this is a tricky power.... Fits for Mysterio, haha!
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 13:15
They wouldn't currently be occupying that square, thus failing the very first line of the check.
So, you go to use willpower. Are you in a square containing hindering created by Mysterio? Nope. Then he's not stopping you from using Willpower.
Did you start in a square? Hopefully, or you are cheating :> Were you in a square with hindering terain made by Mysterio? Yes. Then your powers are turned off FOR THE TURN. Am I wrong about any of that? If so sorry, but I really do think thats how it works.
Edit: Yeah just reread the trait. It checks at the BEGINING of the turn. Not after an action or anything like that. If you start in the square and there was smoke there at any time, you lose the powers listed. Moving away affects nothing.
traitorarmor
07/28/2010, 13:23
Isn't willpower used at the end of an action? So, if my Mysterio smoke clouds under your hiding Skrull Ms. Marvel (so she started the turn in the Mysterio created hindering terrain) , she can just HSS, end the movement in a different square (which doesn't matter) and not take pushing (incorrect).
You are mistaken, I added the relevent part that needs to be considered.
They wouldn't currently be occupying that square, thus failing the very first line of the check.
So, you go to use willpower. Are you in a square containing hindering created by Mysterio? Nope. Then he's not stopping you from using Willpower.
Again not currently, at the start of the turn.
normalview
07/28/2010, 13:26
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Both bolded conditions for this trait need to be met in order for it take effect. While the timing of when that hindering terrain marker can be placed may be in question, the occupation of the square is not: if the character does not occupy the square (if it moves out of the square with HSS, like the example given above), then the first condition is no longer met and the character can use its powers again.
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 13:30
Hmmm.... Well I guess I'm fine with that. Was seeming alittle too good I suppose. So you just need to keep them there or something. Heck, with this ruling you could start in one square of the gas, HHS to a DIFFERENT square of it and since thats not the square you started in get to keep your powers. Thats silly... Haha ah well thats hero clix. :>
you lose the powers for the ENTIRE turn. Good, good power. Flash bang anyone?
Nowhere in the power does it say you loose the powers for the entire turn.
It says you loose the powers as long as you Occupy Hindering Terrain if you started the turn in such-n-such square.
With Willpower and Indomitable moving wont help you because to use a power it has to be in use at the beginning of the action so even if you start your movement in hindering and then end in non-hindering willpower woont be available at the start of the action and thus wont be usable at the end of the action either.
With Super Senses though all you have to do is get out of hindering terrain before a relevant action occurs.
Both bolded conditions for this trait need to be met in order for it take effect. While the timing of when that hindering terrain marker can be placed may be in question, the occupation of the square is not: if the character does not occupy the square (if it moves out of the square with HSS, like the example given above), then the first condition is no longer met and the character can use its powers again.
While I completely agree with the timing issues you stated....
Im not sure this would apply to Willpower or Indomitable because you have to declare which powers you are using at the start of the action. Since you wont be able to use Willpower at the start of the action it will be meaningless at the end of the same action.
Now if on the otherhand they were first TKed out of the square I would completely agree.
normalview
07/28/2010, 13:45
With Willpower and Indomitable moving wont help you because to use a power it has to be in use at the beginning of the action so even if you start your movement in hindering and then end in non-hindering willpower woont be available at the start of the action and thus wont be usable at the end of the action either.
Not true.
Willpower is checked when pushing damage is applied. If the character takes an action and a second token is applied for taking said action, then the pushing damage would occur after the character has already moved (and has regained Willpower).
Happens all the time if your Willpower is countered and you push to attack the character that countered the Willpower; if the attack is successful and the target doesn't have the countering power anymore, Willpower would be back and there would be no pushing damage.
Not true.
Ok I see your point.
I will agree with you on willpower,
But I will disagree, with Indomitable....why would your option to choose be any different then the Batman Ally TA?
One character can use Willpower and one character can use Stealth. If Batman has to choose at the beginning of the action and cant choose in the middle, why would Ms Marvel get a mid-action choice?
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 14:09
Ok I see your point.
I will agree with you on willpower,
But I will disagree, with Indomitable....why would your option to choose be any different then the Batman Ally TA?
One character can use Willpower and one character can use Stealth. If Batman has to choose at the beginning of the action and cant choose in the middle, why would Ms Marvel get a mid-action choice?
Same as willpower. When pushing damage is applied you choose to use willpower, which indom lets you do. Pushing damage is at the end of the turn yada yada. Indom is basically the same as having willpower.
lancelot
07/28/2010, 14:14
In short, Mysterio's great for taking down that new Common Spider-Man down a notch or two! No 50% Super Senses!
As for Willpower, I suppose it'd force them to vacate the square and/or sit there and clear or take the push if they *need* to attack, which should then equate to seeing one less attack from the opponent.
I like!
Same as willpower. When pushing damage is applied you choose to use willpower, which indom lets you do. Pushing damage is at the end of the turn yada yada. Indom is basically the same as having willpower.
How about when I draw LoF to Batman for PC I choose to not use Stealth, and when you draw LoF to Batman I choose to use Stealth?
I dont see a marketable difference.
Its been ruled before with the Batman TA that a power that requires a choice, the choice must be be made up front. Indomitable is a choice, Willpower isnt.
lancelot
07/28/2010, 14:23
I'm not sure how you're seeing that Indomitable is a choice and Willpower isn't?
You *can* turn off any power. Indomitable *is* Willpower, so therefore, they're interchangeable.
Rurouni KJS
07/28/2010, 14:26
You *can* turn off any power. Indomitable *is* Willpower, so therefore, they're interchangeable.
You can turn off any optional power or ability. Some aren't optional (ESD, Impervious, Toughness, and several SPs).
nivlac713
07/28/2010, 14:31
How about when I draw LoF to Batman for PC I choose to not use Stealth, and when you draw LoF to Batman I choose to use Stealth?
I dont see a marketable difference.
Its been ruled before with the Batman TA that a power that requires a choice, the choice must be be made up front. Indomitable is a choice, Willpower isnt.
Yeah I miss where your getting this choice from. Indom lets you use willpower. It works the exact same as willpower mechanically. When you take pushing damage, you don't take the damage. the only "choice" is if you will use willpower which comes when you are taking the push damage, at the end of an action.
Forget about Willpower and Indom for a second and simply explain to me why Batman has to make a choice about Stealth at the begining of action instead of when a LoF is being drawn?
If you can answer that question an apply it consisitently to Indom you will see the subtle difference.
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Both bolded conditions for this trait need to be met in order for it take effect. While the timing of when that hindering terrain marker can be placed may be in question, the occupation of the square is not: if the character does not occupy the square (if it moves out of the square with HSS, like the example given above), then the first condition is no longer met and the character can use its powers again.
If it's ruled that way, that's fine. But the way I see it, it looks like this:
Player A uses Mysterio to place a Smoke Cloud under HoT Thor, whom already has 1 action token. Player A finishes his turn.
Player B (controller of Thor) wants to use Thor to Running Shot. Since Player B's Thor is occupying the hindering terrain placed by Player A, they can not use Thor's Indomitable.
Nowhere in the trait does it say that both conditions must be met at the same time. Only that the character must begin it's turn, not end it's turn, in the square that the terrain was placed in. To me, it seems that the last line, "if they began the current turn in that square", is there to specifically stop characters from simply moving (or move attacking) out of the terrain.
You *can* turn off any power. Indomitable *is* Willpower, so therefore, they're interchangeable.
Indom is not willpower it lets you use willpower, just as the Bat TA is not stealth but lets you use Stealth.
The wording on both is the same, and both powers normally can be used at any time during an action.
Since Bat TA has to be chosen upfront, to be consistent :d-indomitable: should also be choosen up front even if the power is to be used later in the action.
lancelot
07/28/2010, 14:54
If it's ruled that way, that's fine. But the way I see it, it looks like this:
Player A uses Mysterio to place a Smoke Cloud under HoT Thor, whom already has 1 action token. Player A finishes his turn.
Player B (controller of Thor) wants to use Thor to Running Shot. Since Player B's Thor is occupying the hindering terrain placed by Player A, they can not use Thor's Indomitable.
Nowhere in the trait does it say that both conditions must be met at the same time. Only that the character must begin it's turn, not end it's turn, in the square that the terrain was placed in. To me, it seems that the last line, "if they began the current turn in that square", is there to specifically stop characters from simply moving (or move attacking) out of the terrain.
They can move out of the square and regain Indomitable/Willpower.
How's this different than Thor popping the Outwitter who Outwitted his Indomitable and regaining Indomitable? He wouldn't push then.
They can move out of the square and regain Indomitable/Willpower.
How's this different than Thor popping the Outwitter who Outwitted his Indomitable and regaining Indomitable? He wouldn't push then.
Outwit specifies that if it is lost or countered the Outwitted power/ability/effect returns. In this case, nothing is lost or countered. In fact, this Trait specifically says that: "if they began the current turn in that square" It does not say that the trait loses it's effect if the character moves from that square, only that it's in effect if they began the turn in that square.
See the difference?
For a precedent, look to the Warbound feat. It doesn't matter where you end your movement, as long as you began your movement from a square that was adjacent to another character that also had the Warbound feat attached. In fact, you can't end your movement adjacent to a character that has the feat attached, and still pass off your token. But if you started adjacent, and moved away, you can.
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:09
If it's ruled that way, that's fine. But the way I see it, it looks like this:
Player A uses Mysterio to place a Smoke Cloud under HoT Thor, whom already has 1 action token. Player A finishes his turn.
Player B (controller of Thor) wants to use Thor to Running Shot. Since Player B's Thor is occupying the hindering terrain placed by Player A, they can not use Thor's Indomitable.
Nowhere in the trait does it say that both conditions must be met at the same time. Only that the character must begin it's turn, not end it's turn, in the square that the terrain was placed in. To me, it seems that the last line, "if they began the current turn in that square", is there to specifically stop characters from simply moving (or move attacking) out of the terrain.
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Here's how it works, and I thank view for agreeing with me (I will accept apologies in the form of rep, lol).
My character with willpower is standing in a space with Mysterio's smoke cloud. I give my character with Willpower a second action to use Charge. I move to attempt to hit your stealthed Batman.
After the resolution of the attack, I give the action token. Where am I? I'm in a square of clear terrain, ok. The first line of mysterio's trait says:
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio
Well, my fig is not in a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by mysterio. Therefore his power does not apply.
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:14
Indom is not willpower it lets you use willpower, just as the Bat TA is not stealth but lets you use Stealth.
The wording on both is the same, and both powers normally can be used at any time during an action.
Since Bat TA has to be chosen upfront, to be consistent :d-indomitable: should also be choosen up front even if the power is to be used later in the action.
Right. However, Batman TA is assumed on and stealth active unless you state that it is not.
Indomitable is assumed on and willpower is active unless you state that it is not.
So, I'm only making a choice to not use them. There's nothing that says if something prevents me from using them no longer applies I am still unable to use them.
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:15
Outwit specifies that if it is lost or countered the Outwitted power/ability/effect returns. In this case, nothing is lost or countered. In fact, this Trait specifically says that: "if they began the current turn in that square" It does not say that the trait loses it's effect if the character moves from that square, only that it's in effect if they began the turn in that square.
See the difference?
For a precedent, look to the Warbound feat. It doesn't matter where you end your movement, as long as you began your movement from a square that was adjacent to another character that also had the Warbound feat attached. In fact, you can't end your movement adjacent to a character that has the feat attached, and still pass off your token. But if you started adjacent, and moved away, you can.
I like it when people claim precedents without quoting the power/feat/trait/BFC they are referencing.
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Here's how it works, and I thank view for agreeing with me (I will accept apologies in the form of rep, lol).
My character with willpower is standing in a space with Mysterio's smoke cloud. I give my character with Willpower a second action to use Charge. I move to attempt to hit your stealthed Batman.
After the resolution of the attack, I give the action token. Where am I? I'm in a square of clear terrain, ok. The first line of mysterio's trait says:
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio
Well, my fig is not in a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by mysterio. Therefore his power does not apply.
And again, you've completely ignored the last part of it, which specifically says: "if they began the current turn in that square"
So:
Did they, at the beginning of the the current turn, occupy a square that contained a square of hindering terrain placed by Mysterio? Yes. Then it doesn't matter where they end up, as the condition simply states that they start in that square.
Again, I'll point to the Warbound feat as a precedent.
I like it when people claim precedents without quoting the power/feat/trait/BFC they are referencing.
A simple search would have turned this up for you:
Warbound (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272545&highlight=warbound)
Oh, you're welcome................
Again, I'll point to the Warbound feat as a precedent.
So what your saying is as long as they start adjacent with Warbound they dont actually have to comply with the other restriction of sharing keywords.
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:21
And again, you've completely ignored the last part of it, which specifically says: "if they began the current turn in that square"
So:
Did they, at the beginning of the the current turn, occupy a square that contained a square of hindering terrain placed by Mysterio? Yes. Then it doesn't matter where they end up, as the condition simply states that they start in that square.
Again, I'll point to the Warbound feat as a precedent.
And again, you're skipping from the opening to the end. You have to be in a square with hindering when wanting to use WP, Indomitable, or Super Senses for the check against Mysterio to apply.
Here's the example of what you're doing:
If you're laying in your bed, and you were in your bed when you woke, Jarvis will give you ice cream.
You're saying, I was in bed when I woke up, so give me ice cream, Jarvis.
Jarvis then says, "You're not currently in bed, sir. Therefore, you don't meet the base requirement to get ice cream."
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:25
A simple search would have turned this up for you:
Warbound (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272545&highlight=warbound)
Oh, you're welcome................
Did you bother reading it? It says, "When you give an action..."
Well, willpower is checked when you give an action token, just like Edward Nigma's pseudo-Warbound power. So, when wanting to use willpower is when you check the conditions of Mysterio's trait. You wouldn't be checking it any other time.
Also, you still didn't quote the feat. If you're going to attempt to use evidence in an argument, you really need to supply it.
And again, you're skipping from the opening to the end. You have to be in a square with hindering when wanting to use WP, Indomitable, or Super Senses for the check against Mysterio to apply.
Here's the example of what you're doing:
If you're laying in your bed, and you were in your bed when you woke, Jarvis will give you ice cream.
You're saying, I was in bed when I woke up, so give me ice cream, Jarvis.
Jarvis then says, "You're not currently in bed, sir. Therefore, you don't meet the base requirement to get ice cream."
No. In your scenario, as long as I started in bed, I'd get ice cream. That's what the last line says. I'll quote it (again):
"if they began the current turn in that square"
So, did they begin the current turn in that square? Yes. It doesn't say you have to stay in that square, only that you began the turn in that square.
No. In your scenario, as long as I started in bed, I'd get ice cream. That's what the last line says. I'll quote it (again):
"if they began the current turn in that square"
So, did they begin the current turn in that square? Yes. It doesn't say you have to stay in that square, only that you began the turn in that square.
What does this line mean?:
Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker
Did they write it wrong and mean to say:
Opposing characters that occupied a square with a hindering terrain marker
Ginormous
07/28/2010, 15:33
No. In your scenario, as long as I started in bed, I'd get ice cream. That's what the last line says. I'll quote it (again):
"if they began the current turn in that square"
So, did they begin the current turn in that square? Yes. It doesn't say you have to stay in that square, only that you began the turn in that square.
That response explains so much. You're right, the text doesn't use the words, "as long as you stay in the square" or something similar. It does say, "Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio." This is the prerequisite for the trait to apply. You must be IN the square with the Mysterio placed hindering. If you are not in a square of Mysterio placed hindering when you want to use willpower to not take pushing, then the rest of the trait could say, "you win a million dollars" and it still wouldn't apply.
Normalview has already come in here and said your POV is wrong, and it seems like your logical skills are a bit off right now, so I would suggest stepping away for a few hours and then reading the whole thread again.
OK so according to some, I can move out of the hindering terrain, and get my Willpower/Indomitable back. Then what does this line mean:
"if they began the current turn in that square".......?
So, at the beginning of the turn, I check to see where my character is: it's in hindering terrain placed by Mysterio. I can't use Indomitable/Willpower or Super Senses, because I began the turn in the hindering terrain. It doesn't matter where I move to, as the only stipulation/condition is that I occupied that square at the beginning of the turn. As it says. Right in the description.
refrusdraob
07/28/2010, 15:44
What does this line mean?:
Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker
Did they write it wrong and mean to say:
Opposing characters that occupied a square with a hindering terrain marker
no they clearly meant "Occupy", just like your argument on Within lol
OK so according to some, I can move out of the hindering terrain, and get my Willpower/Indomitable back. Then what does this line mean:
"if they began the current turn in that square".......?
It means both restrictions apply, not just one.
If they didnt begin the current turn in the square then the rule doesnt apply.
If they arent currently occupying a hindering terrain marker then the rule doesnt apply.
no they clearly meant "Occupy", just like your argument on Within lol
Your such a silly boy....Occupy is also a specific game term with a specific meaning. I once wrote an article for Critical Hit Magazine (which I ran passed the rules arb at the time) explaining the pertinent points of occupying a square and being adjacent to something.
So I am well aware of the rules definition of the word "occupy".
lancelot
07/28/2010, 15:47
And there's no orange tint anywhere? Anybody think they're hashing this out in the Deputy Cave? I, for one, hope so...
refrusdraob
07/28/2010, 15:53
Your such a silly boy....Occupy is also a specific game term with a specific meaning. I once wrote an article for Critical Hit Magazine (which I ran passed the rules arb at the time) explaining the pertinent points of occupying a square and being adjacent to something.
So I am well aware of the rules definition of the word "occupy".
ya i know its all cool.... Friends?(holds out hand)
And there's no orange tint anywhere? Anybody think they're hashing this out in the Deputy Cave? I, for one, hope so...
Possibly, but not necessarily.
Once they felt they gave a satisfactory answer they generally relay back to Norm and stop posting.
Particularly when you get two or more Orangies in agreement.
ya i know its all cool.... Friends?(holds out hand)
:cool: :a-fist:
(for the lack of an open hand this will have to do as a fish might give the wrong message)
Did you bother reading it? It says, "When you give an action..."
Well, willpower is checked when you give an action token, just like Edward Nigma's pseudo-Warbound power. So, when wanting to use willpower is when you check the conditions of Mysterio's trait. You wouldn't be checking it any other time.
Also, you still didn't quote the feat. If you're going to attempt to use evidence in an argument, you really need to supply it.
WARBOUND
Once a character has been given a non-free action, they cannot be given another non-free action on the same turn, even though the token was placed on someone else. Similarly, a character who has received an action token through Warbound can still be given a non-free action the same turn.
Adjacency is required for the 2 characters when the action is given. If the characters are not adjacent at the end of the action, the token may still be assigned to the qualifying character.
Apparently, you didn't bother reading the thread :tired:
For what it is worth, I agree that it isn't as clear as it could be (which is why I haven't posted before) and we've already begun discussing this in the Deputy Cave.
More info to follow soon, I hope.
And there's no orange tint anywhere? Anybody think they're hashing this out in the Deputy Cave? I, for one, hope so...
Quebbster was in here about 1/2 an hour ago, but he left.
Possibly, but not necessarily.
Once they felt they gave a satisfactory answer they generally relay back to Norm and stop posting.
Particularly when you get two or more Orangies in agreement.
Only normal has made a comment on this so far.
Questions
07/28/2010, 16:10
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Both bolded conditions for this trait need to be met in order for it take effect. While the timing of when that hindering terrain marker can be placed may be in question, the occupation of the square is not: if the character does not occupy the square (if it moves out of the square with HSS, like the example given above), then the first condition is no longer met and the character can use its powers again.
My take is that they are still discussing it. I think the timing issue will really address some of the other issues and might change normalview's response above. (If the timing issue goes one way, I think this issue gets opened a whole different way.)
Forget about Willpower and Indom for a second and simply explain to me why Batman has to make a choice about Stealth at the begining of action instead of when a LoF is being drawn?
If you can answer that question an apply it consisitently to Indom you will see the subtle difference.
I see where you are coming from with this. It comes down to this:
I declare an action and whether or not I am using Indom (Batman TA) at the beginning of that action.
It is Indom that gives you access to use willpower- like the batman TA this needs to be checked at the beginning of the action. Willpower is checked at the point of giving a token. Since you are starting the action under a condition that denies you the use of Indomitable, you are unable to use indom for the remainder of the action. Thus when it comes time to check for willpower, you do not have access to it since indom was denied at the beginning of the action.
Is this about right? I understand where you are coming from and why you are calling for this, just not sure if I agree with you.
Is this about right? I understand where you are coming from and why you are calling for this, just not sure if I agree with you.
Yep thats pretty much the reasoning.
I just found a line in the Player Guide which supports what I am talking about
Player Guide:
When a special power indicates that a character ―can use‖ a
standard power in some way, the use of that standard
power must be decided as an action is given and remains in
use (or not in use) for the duration of that action including
any free actions that are granted by the given action.
Bubblehead
07/28/2010, 18:37
I'd love to hear from Seth what his original intention was for the Trait. Instead of interpreting it, just hear the intent. Think that would go a long way towards understanding.
Bubblehead
07/28/2010, 18:42
I think that is EXACTLY how it should be intrepreted.
Thanks to Icehot for doing the extra legwork. Especially referencing the above passage.
I see where you are coming from with this. It comes down to this:
I declare an action and whether or not I am using Indom (Batman TA) at the beginning of that action.
It is Indom that gives you access to use willpower- like the batman TA this needs to be checked at the beginning of the action. Willpower is checked at the point of giving a token. Since you are starting the action under a condition that denies you the use of Indomitable, you are unable to use indom for the remainder of the action. Thus when it comes time to check for willpower, you do not have access to it since indom was denied at the beginning of the action.
Is this about right? I understand where you are coming from and why you are calling for this, just not sure if I agree with you.
Ginormous
07/29/2010, 10:45
:cool: :a-fist:
(for the lack of an open hand this will have to do as a fish might give the wrong message)
I know it was a good way to extend your hand, but my brain initially thought, "Fight the power!"
Ginormous
07/29/2010, 10:50
Apparently, you didn't bother reading the thread :tired:
I did. Warbound can be use when the action is given. An action is given before any powers or abilities occur. Willpower is used when an action token is given. This happens after the resolution of powers or abilities that resulted from giving an action.
UniqueLoginNamor
07/29/2010, 12:39
How is this still confusing people?
It reads very simple. It just doesn't read what people want it to.
Smelly Guys Trait: "If you are in the Store, you smell like fish if you are in the spot you started the turn in."
Both conditions have to be met
"if you are in the store" This implies that you only smell like fish in the store. Yes it only happens if you are in spot you started in, but it doesn't matter if you started the turn in the store.
If you stand there and someone builds a store around you and you haven't moved, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and do not move, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and leave, you do not smell like fish immediately after moving.
If you start in the store and move to a different spot but still remain in the store you do not smell like fish, but at the beginning of the next turn (in multi-shopper) you will be in the store so you will smell like fish as long as you remain in that spot.
If you are in the store and get knocked back away from your initial spot you do not smell like fish. If in that same turn you get knocked back into your starting spot, you do smell like fish.
Any questions?
I did. Warbound can be use when the action is given. An action is given before any powers or abilities occur. Willpower is used when an action token is given. This happens after the resolution of powers or abilities that resulted from giving an action.
I am trying (and failing) to see your point here? Action tokens are always (with the exception of Theme PC re-rolls and CSA TA) assigned at the end of an action, regardless of anything else. In order to use Willpower/Indomitable, you'd have to give them a (non-free) action, else a 2nd token wouldn't even be applied. (Incapacitate or Protected being 2 other ways a second token would be applied)
You don't even have to declare that you are using the Warbound feat, since it is in effect unless you declare otherwise (The same as Willpower/Indomitable). From the Blackest Night Rule Book:
Using Feats
........ A feat assigned to a character is in effect during an action unless the player who controls the character indicates at the beginning of the action that the feat is not being used........
I Running Shot/HSS/Charge/Transporter away from the Warbound character I was next to, make my attack, and at the end of the action, I put the token on the character I was next to. I didn't even have to declare I was using Warbound, and the square I end up in is irrelevant to the usage of it. Warbound is also only used when an action token is given......
I Running Shot/HSS/Charge/Transporter away from the hindering terrain markers placed by Mysterio, make my attack, and at the end of the action, I put the token on the character I used. I didn't even have to declare that I was using Willpower/Indomitable.............except I can't use it since I started the turn occupying a square that contained said terrain marker. It's irrelevant what square I end up in, only what square I started in........
How is this still confusing people?
It reads very simple. It just doesn't read what people want it to.
Smelly Guys Trait: "If you are in the Store, you smell like fish if you are in the spot you started the turn in."
Both conditions have to be met
"if you are in the store" This implies that you only smell like fish in the store. Yes it only happens if you are in spot you started in, but it doesn't matter if you started the turn in the store.
If you stand there and someone builds a store around you and you haven't moved, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and do not move, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and leave, you do not smell like fish immediately after moving.
If you start in the store and move to a different spot but still remain in the store you do not smell like fish, but at the beginning of the next turn (in multi-shopper) you will be in the store so you will smell like fish as long as you remain in that spot.
If you are in the store and get knocked back away from your initial spot you do not smell like fish. If in that same turn you get knocked back into your starting spot, you do smell like fish.
Any questions?
Here is a much simpler example to illustrate my point:
You are in square X, and I steal your wallet from you. You move to square Y: do you still have your wallet simply because you moved?
UniqueLoginNamor
07/29/2010, 14:43
Here is a much simpler example to illustrate my point:
You are in square X, and I steal your wallet from you. You move to square Y: do you still have your wallet simply because you moved?
Except that verbage doesn't match the trait we're talking about. The trait doesn't read "If Mysterio places a smoke cloud marker in a square occupying a character, that characters looses Super Senses, Indomitable, and Willpower."
Again, people are getting confused between what it actually says and what they think it should say.
I'm not arguing that the power wouldn't make more sense that way
gmastermcd
07/29/2010, 16:25
How is this still confusing people?
It reads very simple. It just doesn't read what people want it to.
Smelly Guys Trait: "If you are in the Store, you smell like fish if you are in the spot you started the turn in."
Both conditions have to be met
"if you are in the store" This implies that you only smell like fish in the store. Yes it only happens if you are in spot you started in, but it doesn't matter if you started the turn in the store.
If you stand there and someone builds a store around you and you haven't moved, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and do not move, you smell like fish.
If you start in the store and leave, you do not smell like fish immediately after moving.
If you start in the store and move to a different spot but still remain in the store you do not smell like fish, but at the beginning of the next turn (in multi-shopper) you will be in the store so you will smell like fish as long as you remain in that spot.
If you are in the store and get knocked back away from your initial spot you do not smell like fish. If in that same turn you get knocked back into your starting spot, you do smell like fish.
Any questions?
What happens to this train of thought if
A) you are in a fish store?
or
B) you are King Shark?
nivlac713
07/29/2010, 16:34
Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
Both bolded conditions for this trait need to be met in order for it take effect. While the timing of when that hindering terrain marker can be placed may be in question, the occupation of the square is not: if the character does not occupy the square (if it moves out of the square with HSS, like the example given above), then the first condition is no longer met and the character can use its powers again.
Theres the orange. PAge 3 I believe.
I think someone asked why this works different from backman TA. Its because TAs have to be chosen to not be in use at the begining of an action. If you attack with batman, miss and want to prob the roll, if you did not PREVIOUSLY turn off the TA you no longer can, as the begining of the action has already passed. There is no such limitation on willpower. You choose to use it OR NOT when the power is being used. The difference between TAs and POWERS or ABILITIES. Sorry if this was no longer pertinent to the discussion.
UniqueLoginNamor
07/29/2010, 16:34
What happens to this train of thought if
A) you are in a fish store?
or
B) you are King Shark?
Mysterio's Fish store has special circulation system so you only smell like fish if you stay in one place to long
And King Shark raises his hands because he's Sure.*sing* raise your hands, if you're Sure* So deodorant takes his natural fish smell and he only smells in the specific trait-specified conditions.
God, i might be dating myself with the "sure" commercial
nivlac713
07/29/2010, 16:39
I am trying (and failing) to see your point here? Action tokens are always (with the exception of Theme PC re-rolls and CSA TA) assigned at the end of an action, regardless of anything else. In order to use Willpower/Indomitable, you'd have to give them a (non-free) action, else a 2nd token wouldn't even be applied. (Incapacitate or Protected being 2 other ways a second token would be applied)
Here is a much simpler example to illustrate my point:
You are in square X, and I steal your wallet from you. You move to square Y: do you still have your wallet simply because you moved?
Wow. WAY oversimplification. The power states that you have to BOTH be in the square you started the turn in AND be in hindering terrain that was placed by Mysterio. If you can make either of those conditions not true, then thepower does not effect you. SO.
You can move out of the hindering.
You could outwit the smoke cloud on Mysterio if you can see him.
YOu could KO him before the token is placed.
You could move from one square of hindering Mysterio made and into another since you ARE NOT IN THE SQUARE YOU STARTED THE TURN. Even though you are still in a hindering terain piece placed by mysterio you no longer qualify for the start the turn in that square part of the power, so you have no worries.
Its a good power, but there are ways around it. So its not a broken power.
Theres the orange. PAge 3 I believe.
I think someone asked why this works different from backman TA. Its because TAs have to be chosen to not be in use at the begining of an action. If you attack with batman, miss and want to prob the roll, if you did not PREVIOUSLY turn off the TA you no longer can, as the begining of the action has already passed. There is no such limitation on willpower. You choose to use it OR NOT when the power is being used. The difference between TAs and POWERS or ABILITIES. Sorry if this was no longer pertinent to the discussion.
With the small problem of your statement being incorrect.
Why would you not just choose to use or not use Stealth when LoF is being drawn. You can use Stealth without any action whatsoever, so clearly stealth is not bound by the definition of an action. Its no different then Willpower.
Thus the Bat TA is no different then Indomitable.
Show me the part from the rules where Stealth is only activated at the beginning of an action (its ability to be used at any time in an action or not in an action is no different then willpower).
Furthermore as I showed from the Players Guide its not just TAs but all SPs.
For W.I.T.:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Ruling: Judges that have prize support provided by WizKids can run a WK Sanctioned Event and give out WK Prizes if they began their judging as a sanctioned WK Judge.
I began judging as a WK Sanctioned judge, but I dont have any prize support. Do you want to come to my event?
Hint: I wont be able to give out prizes because although I once had Prize Support I dont have them anymore.
chrisdosmil
07/29/2010, 19:43
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
After reading it again and again I finally get it and see how it works. There are 2 "checks" that have to be in place for the trait to take effect.
1. Is the character occupying a square containing a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio? YES/NO
2. Did the character begin thier turn in that square? YES/NO
If both checks are YES then the trait takes effect. I see how it would now work against super senses and why if you move a character out of the square they would gain thier indomitable or willpower back. It may not work against someone with a move and attack power, but it will make someone think twice to push to attack while on top of one.
this one seems pretty cut and dry to me.
i interpret it as such:
my mysterio drops his cloud on the opponents square, i do other equally evil stuff on my turn, blah blah......on my opponents turn, they have begun it in the smoke, so no indom/wp/ss. simple.
opponent takes their turn, does whatever, turn over.
start of my turn, smoke comes down.
i decide to go up in smoke again :cool: , rinse repeat.
there doesn't seem to be any timing issue simply because it says if they begin the 'current' turn in the cloud then blah blah. so, when it is my next turn and i take the cloud down, well they weren't really in it because i had to take it down and they (opponent) can't begin their turn til it's their turn. it has no bearing what happens on my turn, just theirs.
there is a distinct difference between a 'round' and a 'turn' right?
turn = a series of movements and or attacks performed by one player during their phase of a round.
round= a completion of all players' turns.
^^ is this correct? it isn't verbatim as per the BN rule book, but essentially the same idea?
at least this is how i read it.
chrisdosmil
07/29/2010, 20:30
this one seems pretty cut and dry to me.
i interpret it as such:
my mysterio drops his cloud on the opponents square, i do other equally evil stuff on my turn, blah blah......on my opponents turn, they have begun it in the smoke, so no indom/wp/ss. simple.
opponent takes their turn, does whatever, turn over.
start of my turn, smoke comes down.
i decide to go up in smoke again :cool: , rinse repeat.
there doesn't seem to be any timing issue simply because it says if they begin the 'current' turn in the cloud then blah blah. so, when it is my next turn and i take the cloud down, well they weren't really in it because i had to take it down and they (opponent) can't begin their turn til it's their turn. it has no bearing what happens on my turn, just theirs.
there is a distinct difference between a 'round' and a 'turn' right?
turn = a series of movements and or attacks performed by one player during their phase of a round.
round= a completion of all players' turns.
^^ is this correct? it isn't verbatim as per the BN rule book, but essentially the same idea?
at least this is how i read it.
The problem here is that you're completely skimming over the first line.
"Opposing characters that occupy a square "
They have to be in the same square they started in and remain in that square. Once they leave that square they are no longer "occupying" a square containing a hindering terrain marker.
The problem here is that you're completely skimming over the first line.
"Opposing characters that occupy a square "
They have to be in the same square they started in and remain in that square. Once they leave that square they are no longer "occupying" a square containing a hindering terrain marker.
not sure im skimming anything really. but to be honest, the more i read the power the more confused i get.
it doesn't say they have to occupy and remain anywhere. occupying doesn't mean 'living in', it means the square you are in. not for the round, not for the turn, but right now.
it clearly states that you only have to occupy this square at the beginning of the current turn, it never says anywhere that you must remain there.
whenever you move a piece, it occupies every single square it enters at that exact moment. if it has a move of 6 and it moves 6, it just occupied 6 squares for a brief amount of time. the square i 'currently occupy' is the one i am currently in.
in mysterios case, if you began the current turn occupying a square with his smoke in it, then you are screwed.
if your character is in this square when it began anything, it's hooped. period. move all ya want, but you will take push damage and/or you will have no super senses. why? because your occupancy began in that square.
Wow. WAY oversimplification. The power states that you have to BOTH be in the square you started the turn in AND be in hindering terrain that was placed by Mysterio. If you can make either of those conditions not true, then thepower does not effect you. SO.
You can move out of the hindering.
You could outwit the smoke cloud on Mysterio if you can see him.
YOu could KO him before the token is placed.
You could move from one square of hindering Mysterio made and into another since you ARE NOT IN THE SQUARE YOU STARTED THE TURN. Even though you are still in a hindering terain piece placed by mysterio you no longer qualify for the start the turn in that square part of the power, so you have no worries.
Its a good power, but there are ways around it. So its not a broken power.
For W.I.T.:
I began judging as a WK Sanctioned judge, but I dont have any prize support. Do you want to come to my event?
Hint: I wont be able to give out prizes because although I once had Prize Support I dont have them anymore.
How this for you then: you are standing in a room, and a tear gas grenade is thrown into the room. You (having no choice) inhale the gas. Coughing, choking, eyes tearing, you run from the room. By simply leaving the room, has the effect of the tear gas gone away?
You occupied the room at the beginning, and then you left it, so wouldn't the effects of the gas just wear off as soon as you left the room? You are not (directly) in the gas anymore.
not sure im skimming anything really. but to be honest, the more i read the power the more confused i get.
it doesn't say they have to occupy and remain anywhere. occupying doesn't mean 'living in', it means the square you are in. not for the round, not for the turn, but right now.
it clearly states that you only have to occupy this square at the beginning of the current turn, it never says anywhere that you must remain there.
whenever you move a piece, it occupies every single square it enters at that exact moment. if it has a move of 6 and it moves 6, it just occupied 6 squares for a brief amount of time. the square i 'currently occupy' is the one i am currently in.
in mysterios case, if you began the current turn occupying a square with his smoke in it, then you are screwed.
if your character is in this square when it began anything, it's hooped. period. move all ya want, but you will take push damage and/or you will have no super senses. why? because your occupancy began in that square.
That's how I read/interpret it too. I guess time will tell. It's obviously still under debate :shrug:
Either way it get's ruled won't bother me, and I do see the other side, and what they are saying, it's just not the way I interpret it.
VanisherPunisher
07/30/2010, 04:56
I am trying (and failing) to see your point here? Action tokens are always (with the exception of Theme PC re-rolls and CSA TA) assigned at the end of an action, regardless of anything else. In order to use Willpower/Indomitable, you'd have to give them a (non-free) action, else a 2nd token wouldn't even be applied. (Incapacitate or Protected being 2 other ways a second token would be applied)
Actually, the token is given after the action has resolved. Not at the end of the action.
How this for you then: you are standing in a room, and a tear gas grenade is thrown into the room. You (having no choice) inhale the gas. Coughing, choking, eyes tearing, you run from the room. By simply leaving the room, has the effect of the tear gas gone away?
You occupied the room at the beginning, and then you left it, so wouldn't the effects of the gas just wear off as soon as you left the room? You are not (directly) in the gas anymore.
Bringing in real world examples does nothing but distract from the rules conversation, since the rules have absolutely nothing in common with reality.
Actually, the token is given after the action has resolved. Not at the end of the action.
Sorry, you lost me there. Maybe you could explain the difference between the end of the action, and the action resolving? Would the action not resolve, at the end of it?
Bringing in real world examples does nothing but distract from the rules conversation, since the rules have absolutely nothing in common with reality.
I am just responding in kind, to the 'real life' examples given by the 'other side'. See below:
And again, you're skipping from the opening to the end. You have to be in a square with hindering when wanting to use WP, Indomitable, or Super Senses for the check against Mysterio to apply.
Here's the example of what you're doing:
If you're laying in your bed, and you were in your bed when you woke, Jarvis will give you ice cream.
You're saying, I was in bed when I woke up, so give me ice cream, Jarvis.
Jarvis then says, "You're not currently in bed, sir. Therefore, you don't meet the base requirement to get ice cream."
Ginormous
07/30/2010, 12:02
Mine wasn't a real world example. Mine was a defining of rules and an outcome and then showing the outcome. I replaced certain words from the Mysterio trait, but still defined rules and reward in a very non real life way. Yours was, "If you inhaled tear gas, what would happen to you?" which leaves everything up to interpretation including the strength of the tear gas and the knowledge of the consequences of inhaling the tear gas. Please use better examples in the future. You are 0 for 2 in this thread when it comes to using applicable examples.
I am just responding in kind, to the 'real life' examples given by the 'other side'. See below:
You are failing to see the parallel wording.
There was no real life example, as I am not in real life holding a tournament with no prizes.
nivlac713
07/30/2010, 14:30
Think of it this way. When you choose not to use Batman TA you are choosing to turn off the power. That is chosen at the begining of the action. This SP is saying that you can't use an ability. No that you don't have it. Will power activates itself when pucshing damage would be applied. So even if you start out not being able to USE willpower, when it comes time to take the click, so long as your no longer qulaified for the SP i.e. out of the terrain, or not in the same square you started the turn, you can still use your willpower, because at the time willpower checks itself you can indeed use it. Still not makin sense to ya?
Think of it this way. When you choose not to use Batman TA you are choosing to turn off the power. That is chosen at the begining of the action. This SP is saying that you can't use an ability. No that you don't have it. Will power activates itself when pucshing damage would be applied. So even if you start out not being able to USE willpower, when it comes time to take the click, so long as your no longer qulaified for the SP i.e. out of the terrain, or not in the same square you started the turn, you can still use your willpower, because at the time willpower checks itself you can indeed use it. Still not makin sense to ya?
Actually you are not turning off the power you are chosing not to use it. A power that is turned off cant be turned on again.
nivlac713
07/30/2010, 14:53
Yes and thats the only way to not have the TA active. It must be turned off for the turn. You just responded to this topic on another thread... Seriously I don't get your confusion. Mabey thats why I can't explain myself well.
Yes and thats the only way to not have the TA active. It must be turned off for the turn. You just responded to this topic on another thread... Seriously I don't get your confusion. Mabey thats why I can't explain myself well.
Im not confused check the PM, I just sent you.
Instead I am making a point, but you have to understand the advanced interactions of how the Batman Ally TA really works to understand the advanced interactions that are at play here.
If it helps I used to be a very active judge on the old WK forums and I do have a clue as to what I am talking about.
Ginormous
07/30/2010, 16:47
Yes and thats the only way to not have the TA active. It must be turned off for the turn. You just responded to this topic on another thread... Seriously I don't get your confusion. Mabey thats why I can't explain myself well.
Actually, when it's "can use stealth" (like the Batman Ally TA) you are allowed to say in response to an action being given, "This character won't be using stealth" then on the very next action you can say, "This character WILL be using stealth." However, you don't even have to say that he's using it for that action, but it's just polite and prevents confusion. For purposes of "can use stealth" you can pick which actions to not use it on and still use it on other actions later in the turn.
When you possess stealth, you have to cancel it to not use it.
turdburglar47
09/07/2010, 19:31
Just chiming in so I can find out when this gets ruled upon.
ThwartHog
09/07/2010, 20:01
Here's the trait, thanks to Grumpygoat:
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square.
So, I'm curious about turn resolution. Smoke Cloud goes away at the beginning of your turn, just like your Outwit and Barrier. But, is it before the turn starts or as a sub-section of the turn?
If Smoke Cloud goes away before the actual turn, it really has no impact on Super Senses. But since it's icluded with Indom/Willpower, I'm probably reading it wrong.
Thoughts?
Notice that the SP doesn't say anything about the opposing fig having to begin the turn in hindering terrain to be affected by this SP, only that he begin the turn in the square that "may at some point during the turn" contain hindering terrain at the time INDOM, SS or WP would be used. There is a difference.
The opposing fig may begin the turn in a square of clear terrain. Mysterio can use smoke cloud to place a hindering terrain marker in the square that the opposing fig occupies. Now, a friendly fig can attack the opposing fig, and the opposing fig can not use SS.
Notice that the SP doesn't say anything about the opposing fig having to begin the turn in hindering terrain to be affected by this SP, only that he begin the turn in the square that "may at some point during the turn" contain hindering terrain at the time INDOM, SS or WP would be used. There is a difference.
The opposing fig may begin the turn in a square of clear terrain. Mysterio can use smoke cloud to place a hindering terrain marker in the square that the opposing fig occupies. Now, a friendly fig can attack the opposing fig, and the opposing fig can not use SS.
here are the key phrases
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square
The bold one says that they have to be in hindering terrain placed by Mysterio.
The second one says that they had to begin their turn in the square that the hindering terrain is placed.
Now here is a question, when a character destroys a wall and the rubble is placed would that activate this trait?
vlad3theimpaler
09/08/2010, 00:27
here are the key phrases
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square
The bold one says that they have to be in hindering terrain placed by Mysterio.
The second one says that they had to begin their turn in the square that the hindering terrain is placed.
Now here is a question, when a character destroys a wall and the rubble is placed would that activate this trait?
No, that would not be a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio.
No, that would not be a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio.
what i am saying is if he destroys the terrain would it kick in then?
So does destroying terrain=placing hindering terrain?
Captain Krueger
09/08/2010, 03:02
Nope. Hindering Debris Markers are not placed by any character (except maybe Mole Man), they are placed as consequence/side effect of the destruction of something (just like pushing damage is not dealt by the character using Incapacitate on somebody, but because a second action token was given by Incap)
vlad3theimpaler
09/08/2010, 05:10
Nope. Hindering Debris Markers are not placed by any character (except maybe Mole Man), they are placed as consequence/side effect of the destruction of something (just like pushing damage is not dealt by the character using Incapacitate on somebody, but because a second action token was given by Incap)
My thoughts exactly.
Red and Blue Rocks
09/08/2010, 11:02
Mysty has no tokens and now places Smoke on SI Iron fist, who has a token. Next turn, Iron Fist decides not to push because he began his turn in smoke by Mysty and cannot use willpower. Now back to Mystys turn, Smoke goes away. SI began the turn in a squrae with Mysty's Smoke so his Super Senses are gone. Mysty pushes to take advantage of that. Or better yet have an ally do the job.
Seems straightforward to me, that's how I'll do it unless the errata says differently.
Mysty has no tokens and now places Smoke on SI Iron fist, who has a token. Next turn, Iron Fist decides not to push because he began his turn in smoke by Mysty and cannot use willpower. Now back to Mystys turn, Smoke goes away. SI began the turn in a squrae with Mysty's Smoke so his Super Senses are gone. Mysty pushes to take advantage of that. Or better yet have an ally do the job.
Seems straightforward to me, that's how I'll do it unless the errata says differently.
you missed the part where he still need to be in the smoke cloud
Trait - Mind-Numbing Gas: Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square
says right there that they have to be in the smoke cloud and they have to start the turn in it also.
Trypswitch
09/08/2010, 11:33
I really think the confusion keeps coming over what the final phrase is referring to. Is it saying the same square or same square of hindering terrain.
It is saying "Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio can't use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower if they began the current turn in that square"
I read that as being two criteria for the power:
Criteria 1: Is the character CURRENTLY on a hindering terrain marker that Mysterio placed with his smoke cloud?
Criteria 2: Are they in the same square ON THE MAP that they began the turn in?
It doesn't say that the hindering terrain marker was on the square of the map at the beginning of the turn, just that the character is.
Here is an example of how I see it working:
Iron Fist leaps across the map and lands in Mysterio's face with the intent on getting rid of his probability control with a nice karate chop to the face. Unfortunately, with no move and attack power, he has to wait a turn to smack Mysterio.
Mysterio decides to throw up some smoke cloud in Iron Fist's face. Now his buddy Rhino can run in and smash Iron Fist's martial arts using butt and not have to worry about him avoiding the damage with super senses, since Iron Fist started the turn in the square he is in, and he is occupying the smoke cloud presently. Rhino runs in and hits for 3.
On Iron Fist's turn, he now has to decided whether it is worth while to push and try to hit Rhino with some exploit weakness, or to go after his original target, but in the process take pushing damage since he began his turn in the square and is occupying the smoke cloud still so he can't use his special power willpower. Or does he leap away and not take pushing damage from it as he will end up in a different square then he began the turn in, EVEN IF he lands in another square of the hindering terrain created by the smoke cloud.
This is how I see it.
UniqueLoginNamor
09/08/2010, 14:31
It's really not hard.
Questions
10/18/2010, 10:48
A hot button issue like this needs to include the final resolution.
From the Player's Guide:
Mind-Numbing Gas reads: ―Opposing characters that occupy a square with a hindering terrain marker placed by Mysterio at the beginning or end of an action can’t use Indomitable, Super Senses, or Willpower until the end of that turn.
A hot button issue like this needs to include the final resolution.
From the Player's Guide:
Winner, winner, chicken dinner :cool:
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