SS and RCE: Can they be used together? [Archive]

Funky Jett

02/26/2003, 15:50

Originally posted by MadWuher
Part A Question
If a SS character is carrying an object and not using it during their ranged combat action, are the allowed to use RCE while the SS is activated? Two powers on at the same time?

See above. You CAN'T use RCE while any other Super Power is in effect.

Part B Remark
I thought there was some ruling about using both willpower and CCE (or RCE) was not allowed. I still may be out of the loop in the rulings department but that is what I last heard.

You are correct. Either you use Willpower (to avoid a click for pushing) and not use RCE, or turn off Willpower (and take your click) and use RCE.

Basically, it's RCE only or any other Super Power and no RCE.

Nevest

02/26/2003, 15:51

RCE cannot be used in conjunction with other super powers.

Just because you are carrying an object doesn't mean that you can't shoot using RCE. You just can't use RCE and SS together to throw an object and boost it's damage by 2. Your fig carrying an object doesn't in any way affect an RCE attack so it's perfectly legal.

Funky Jett

02/26/2003, 15:58

Originally posted by Nevest
RCE cannot be used in conjunction with other super powers.

Just because you are carrying an object doesn't mean that you can't shoot using RCE. You just can't use RCE and SS together to throw an object and boost it's damage by 2. Your fig carrying an object doesn't in any way affect an RCE attack so it's perfectly legal.

No it's not legal. You can make a ranged attack while using Super Strength, but you cannot use RCE while holding an object.

It is in the FAQs. Is Super Strength a super power? Yes. Can you use any super powers while using RCE? No! You are using Super Strength to carry an object, so you cannot use RCE at all. You would have to use the object first, THEN you can use RCE.

This is an identical situation as the Willpower question. Chapeau ruled it was either Willpower OR RCE. You have the option to turn off Willpower, but once you are carrying an object, you CANNOT turn off Super Strength. I am truly sorry, but you can't carry an object and use RCE!

Nevest

02/26/2003, 16:05

From the FAQ:
RCE
* This character adds 2 to their damage for successful single-target ranged combat attacks. (Optional) This power does not work with other powers (such as Super Strength or Enhancement).

Super Strength
* If figure with Super Strength is carrying an object, that figure?s Super Strength power is not optional (it cannot be turned off).

Funky,
I really can see where you're coming from but I guess I just read this a little differently. It seems to me that they are saying that RCE cannot be affected by other powers. You carrying an object does not affect RCE. I believe they mention Super Strength because you cannot use Super Strength to throw an object and boost the damage through RCE.

I could be wrong though. Any big whigs want to set me straight?

Funky Jett

02/26/2003, 16:12

Originally posted by Nevest
Funky,
I really can see where you're coming from but I guess I just read this a little differently. It seems to me that they are saying that RCE cannot be affected by other powers. You carrying an object does not affect RCE. I believe they mention Super Strength because you cannot use Super Strength to throw an object and boost the damage through RCE.

That's not what I am saying. I am saying this specifically:

How does Willpower enhance RCE? It doesn't... however, Chapeau ruled you cannot use Willpower and RCE on the same action. You either have to take your click for pushing and use RCE -OR- use Willpower (no click) and forego using RCE.

You have that option with Willpower because you can turn it off. However, once you pick up an object, your Super Strength is ON and CANNOT be turned off until the object is used. So, since your SS is ON, and you cannot use any super power (other than PC) with RCE, you cannot use RCE until the object is gone.

The rules and FAQs are specific on that point.

LurkMaster2000

02/26/2003, 16:13

man, they really nerfed the heck out of RCE, didn't they?

and anyway, the only advantage i see crimson dynamo having super strength is when he can use the special objects. aside from that, you don't really have to use super strength, when you can have +2 damage from 10 spaces away and even in B2B (since he is a flier).

Nevest

02/26/2003, 16:22

As I said Funky, I can see your point. It just doesn't make sense to me that you can't use RCE while carrying an object. I've learned over time that this game has many rules that don't make sense. I suppose this could be one of them.

Your example of Willpower is much different than Super Strength. Willpower is used in the same action and you get the benefit of not taking a click for pushing in the same action that you get the benefit of +2 to your close or ranged attack. With Super Strength you are not getting any advantage during the action in which you get +2 to your close or ranged attack. I'm sure you can see the difference.

PaladinKWA

02/26/2003, 16:32

I sent an email to the Wizkids Judges. They usually answer the next day so hopefully I will post what they say tomorrow.

Funky Jett

02/26/2003, 16:37

I think it's kind of funny that none of the judges here have touched this one yet. Usually they are all over rules questions. Oh well...

Nevest

02/26/2003, 17:00

Yeah, what's up with that?

Where's our judge luvins?

double_a

02/26/2003, 17:00

Funky Jett is right on the money.

You cannot be holding an object (i.e. using Super-Strength) and make an RCE or a CCE attack.

Nevest has an interesting argument :D (I'm not really using my Super-strength power) but the FAQ is quite clear about not using other powers at the same time as RCE (whether they interact directly with RCE/CCE is irrelevant).

In fact they specifically mention super-strength not working with RCE/CCE so it's stretch to say *they* meant super-strength throws and not super-strength lifts.

Back up from Chapeau:
RCE/CCE simplified:
Except for Probability Control -

1) Attacker cannot use other powers at the same time as his RCE/CCE attack (i.e. Willpower, Super-Strength) nor ATTACK powers in the same turn as his RCE/CE attack (i.e. Poison).

2) Attacker cannot use other powers on the target that would still be "ON" during the RCE/CCE attack (i.e. Outwit/Perplex on the target).

3) Friendly figures cannot use powers directly on the attacker that would be "ON" during the RCE/CCE attack (i.e. Perplex/Enhancement).

Everything else is allowed.

double_a

Thanks to Sten and Double-A. Sten, you handled those questions beautifully, and thank you Double-A for backing him up and clarifying. You are both, obviously, correct.

Chapeau

Nevest

02/26/2003, 17:06

Oh well, I suppose once again that the rules just don't make sense and I just have to grin and bear it. Not the first time and certainly not the last, I'm sure.

It just seems like they are trying to limit the power of RCE with the rules. Which I can appreciate. But carrying an object while doing an RCE doesn't affect the actual RCE attack so I don't see how making this no carrying objects rule is going to do anything but confuse and annoy people. We already have so many powers that cancel each other out while on a fig's dial at the same time ... why add more?

Splinter

02/26/2003, 17:34

Originally posted by double_a
... so it's stretch to say *they* [WizKids] meant ...

With all due respect, what I have seen in the community and on this board since May 2002, is a lot of vigorous debate on the rules. Now I would have thought if the rules were written differently, in such a way that everyone was clear how they operated (actually, most of the problems lie with the wording of the Super Powers), then we wouldn't be having these problems.

What was supposed to be a simple game has turned into a very complex rules interpreting exercise, much to the detriment of HeroClix, which I thoroughly enjoy. We have seen FAQs created with examples to explain how the rules operate that are almost as thick as a phone book. While this helps the community, it only goes to demonstrate that the rules failed in the first place to explain how things worked.

I think it's unfair to say it's a stretch to say something in relation to the rules, when WizKids themselves have needed to explain what "they meant" ad nauseum in these forums and through their FAQs.

Even then there are disputes, and well respected people in this community, including Judges, have differing views on how powers should/do work (eg Poison and Outwit, Barrier and LOS, etc).

Here's to the community, and here's to the end of confusion (one day) :)

double_a

02/26/2003, 17:41

Point taken splinter but sometimes a cigar is a cigar. :D

BTW Nevest - keep up the challenges to rules. Evil grows when good men grow complacent!

DS-00-0, FSD

02/26/2003, 17:49

double_a,

Thank you for this post. If I read it correctly, can this occur:

Doomsday (who has gained the Outwit superpower due to the Superman Team Ability) uses CCE to hit Ultron (the target of the CCE attack). Then after the attack, he wants to use Outwit on Blizzard (thereby outwitting his RS).

According to the three part answer above, that would be allowed, correct?

double_a

02/26/2003, 17:52

DS-00-0, FSD -

You are correct that this is a legal move according to the most recent information that I have. Go forth and conquer.

thornnspear

02/26/2003, 20:44

To defend the judges position (not that they need it, but anyway)...

In seeing the game from a "realism" base, RCE and CCE are supposed to represent skill at making one's attack more effective. So if you're carrying a full dumpster, it's hard to concentrate to aim effectively to do that extra damage by targeting a weak spot or focussing your super powers. I can just see batman struggling to summon up the willpower to go on fighting, but not having the energy to delive that precisely-timed kick to do extra damage (a la CCE)

And perplexing up the attack damage? well, you're teammates erratic behavior disturbs/annoys/distracts you and you lose focus. Face it, harley, the riddler and joker can be annoying. <grin>

Yes, RCE and CCE seem to stink, but keep in mind this is supposed to be a "focusing/concentrating" skill. They just have to be intheir "zone."

spiderboy

02/26/2003, 21:52

Ok,so RCE cannot be used with other super powers. I just want to make sure, how about using it with running shot?

Funky Jett

02/26/2003, 22:01

Definitely a no-no. RCE and Running Shot cannot be used together.

Doctor Strange

02/27/2003, 08:18

Sigh... one of these days, we are all going to realize that a characters RCE negates all of his or her powers ;)

Logic does work in reverse, right? :D

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 08:37

To reiterate:

A figure using RCE/CCE cannot be affected by or use
Charge
Flurry
Mind Control (Can be affected by, but cannot use)
Leap/Climb
Running Shot
Stealth
Super Strength
Blades/Claws/Fangs
Incapacitate
Energy Explosion
Pulse Wave
Steal Energy
Telekinesis (Can be affected by, but cannot use)
Enhancement
Outwit (Can be affected by, but cannot use)
Hypersonic Speed
Psychic Blast
Willpower
Perplex

A figure using RCE/CCE can be affected by and use
Probability Control
All team abilities (for Superman Enemy – can be granted Outwit, but won’t be able to use it)

TheSpirit

02/27/2003, 11:04

Originally posted by Tsannik
To reiterate:

A figure using RCE/CCE cannot be affected by or use
Um, Tsannik, you may want to rethink your wording. The rules lawyers out there might interpret "cannot be affected by" (for example) BCF as "immune to" a BCF attack, which is definitely NOT what you meant.

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 11:15

For all the rules lawyers:

A figure using RCE/CCE cannot use
Charge
Flurry
Mind Control
Leap/Climb
Running Shot
Stealth
Super Strength
Blades/Claws/Fangs
Incapacitate
Energy Explosion
Pulse Wave
Steal Energy
Telekinesis
Outwit
Hypersonic Speed
Psychic Blast
Willpower
Perplex

A figure using RCE/CCE can be affected by
Mind Control (You can MC an opponenet's figure and use his RCE/CCE)
Telekinesis (You can move one of your own figures and then have that figure use RCE/CCE)
Outwit (Other powers can be Outwitted on this figure and it can still use RCE/CCE)
Probabilty Control (Another figure can have the RCE/CCE figure reroll his RCE/CCE attack)

All team abilities (Superman Enemy will GRANT the Outwit power, but the figure will not be able to use while using RCE/CCE)

Is this more infalliable?

TheSpirit

02/27/2003, 11:40

Originally posted by Tsannik
Is this more infalliable?
Looks good. Now how about explaining EBT for the kids, huh? I know you can do it!

(ducks, waits for explosion)

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 11:45

Actually, I have a cut-n-paste for that now... so, my head doesn't explode as often....

Funky Jett

02/27/2003, 11:52

Not to rock the boat, Tsannik, but you should say "cannot use Outwit on the target", because you can use Outwit on a different figure other than your RCE target.

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 12:00

I'm always open to making my cut-n-pastes more rock solid...

How bout this?

A figure using RCE/CCE cannot use
Charge
Flurry
Mind Control
Leap/Climb
Running Shot
Stealth
Super Strength
Blades/Claws/Fangs
Incapacitate
Energy Explosion
Pulse Wave
Steal Energy
Telekinesis (while trying to use an object based attack)
Outwit (cannot use on the same target that the RCE/CCE attack would be on, can use Outwit on other figures)
Hypersonic Speed
Psychic Blast
Willpower
Perplex (cannot use on the same target that the RCE/CCE attack would be on, cannot use on itself, can use Perplex on other figures)

A figure using RCE/CCE can be affected by
Mind Control (You can MC an opponent’s figure and use his RCE/CCE)
Telekinesis (You can move one of your own figures and then have that figure use RCE/CCE)
Outwit (Other powers can be Outwitted on this figure and it can still use RCE/CCE)
Probability Control (Another figure can have the RCE/CCE figure re-roll his RCE/CCE attack)

All team abilities (Superman Enemy will GRANT the Outwit power, but the figure will not be able to use while using RCE/CCE)

Funky Jett

02/27/2003, 12:12

Very nice!

Alyksandyr

02/27/2003, 12:37

I think some of you might be reading/interpreting the power and FAQ of RCE wrong. Here is RCE from the most recent FAQ.

--------

Ranged Combat Expert

This character adds 2 to their damage for successful single-target ranged combat attacks. (Optional) This power does not work with other powers (such as Super Strength or Enhancement).

This power does not work with any other powers except Probability Control, even if the other power’s description suggests otherwise. To elaborate:

The attacking player's other characters can effect the defending/targeted character, but the attacking character can't be the one using the other powers.

If a character has Ranged Combat Expert and wants to use it to attack he can't have his combat values altered from the printed values in any way by himself or a friendly figure (via Perplex, Enhancement, or other Power) in that turn. A friendly figure may use Support on the figure with Ranged Combat Expert because the printed values are not being altered.

In addition he can't use Running Shot and Ranged Combat Expert in the same turn.

Finally, he cannot use any attack powers in the same turn as he uses Ranged Combat Expert.

While Ranged Combat Expert cannot be used in connection with other powers, it can be used in connection with team abilities. Thus, while a Ranged Combat Expert attack cannot be enhanced, a S.H.I.E.L.D. figure could add a click of damage to that attack by using the S.H.I.E.L.D team ability.

--------

Note the sections that I have bolded. The Attacking Players OTHER characters CAN effect the defending/targeted player. Thus, I can use Perplex on another figure, to lower the defense of my intended target. I can ALSO use Outwit to eliminate a super power my target might have. So long as the Character with RCE does not perfom these super powers, its totally legal to due so. This issue is mostly moot, as no character can have Perplex, CCE/RCE, and Outwit at the same time, as they reside in the "Damage Slot" (Asterisk, See Below for Superman Enemy)

Furthermore, going back to the "Can not alter printed values" line, the Super Power WILLPOWER does not alter printed values of the character using RCE. A character who pushes, and has Willpower and RCE/CCE, would be able to use this power as it does not alter the printed numbers of the character using RCE.

The bottom line here is that this skill is poorly worded by the FAQ. There are 3 significant portions of the skill by the FAQ, and you can find ways to cause each of those 3 rules to break, by something that would support the other 2.

1. Cannot use any powers even if the description makes you think it might work, save for PROB CONTROL

2. Can not alter Printed Values of the character who wishes to use RCE.

3. CAN use TEAM Abilites

These examples support one rule, but break another:

Superman Enemy grants the character Outwit. If Brainiac is next to an Intergang Agent, can Brainiac use Outwit VIA TEAM POWER, and RCE from his dial?

Sinister Syndicate/Batman Enemy allows character to share Attack Values. This alters the printed value of the character, but based on the SHIELD example, this should be allowed.

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 12:43

Furthermore, going back to the "Can not alter printed values" line, the Super Power WILLPOWER does not alter printed values of the character using RCE. A character who pushes, and has Willpower and RCE/CCE, would be able to use this power as it does not alter the printed numbers of the character using RCE.
Though this has not been updated in the FAQ, Willpower cannot be used when using RCE/CCE as it would violate RCE/CCE's stipulation that this power cannot be combined with any other powers (except where noted).
Superman Enemy grants the character Outwit. If Brainiac is next to an Intergang Agent, can Brainiac use Outwit VIA TEAM POWER, and RCE from his dial?

Sinister Syndicate/Batman Enemy allows character to share Attack Values. This alters the printed value of the character, but based on the SHIELD example, this should be allowed.

The Superman Enemy team ability only grants the super power Outwit. RCE/CCE would then restrict the usage of that power by their own nature.

SinSyn/Batman Enemy will work with RCE/CCE.

Funky Jett

02/27/2003, 12:47

Note the sections that I have bolded. The Attacking Players OTHER characters CAN effect the defending/targeted player. Thus, I can use Perplex on another figure, to lower the defense of my intended target. I can ALSO use Outwit to eliminate a super power my target might have. So long as the Character with RCE does not perfom these super powers, its totally legal to due so. This issue is mostly moot, as no character can have Perplex, CCE/RCE, and Outwit at the same time, as they reside in the "Damage Slot" (Asterisk, See Below for Superman Enemy)

No one has argued against that. In fact, this is exactly what prompted my response to Tsannik above.

Furthermore, going back to the "Can not alter printed values" line, the Super Power WILLPOWER does not alter printed values of the character using RCE. A character who pushes, and has Willpower and RCE/CCE, would be able to use this power as it does not alter the printed numbers of the character using RCE.

Unfortunately, this is not correct. It has been officially ruled by Chapeau you cannot use Willpower and CCE/RCE during the same action. It's either one or the other.

Superman Enemy grants the character Outwit. If Brainiac is next to an Intergang Agent, can Brainiac use Outwit VIA TEAM POWER, and RCE from his dial?

He can use the gained Outwit on a different target. He cannot Outwit the target THEN use his CCE/RCE attack on the same target. He can use his CCE/RCE first, THEN Outwit that same target.

Sinister Syndicate/Batman Enemy allows character to share Attack Values. This alters the printed value of the character, but based on the SHIELD example, this should be allowed.

Team abilities are not Super Powers, so you would be able to the Sinister Syndicate ability along with CCE/RCE. That's why it's called a PAC -- Powers and Abilities Card. They are two separate things.

TheSpirit

02/27/2003, 12:49

Originally posted by Alyksandyr
...the Super Power WILLPOWER does not alter printed values of the character using RCE. A character who pushes, and has Willpower and RCE/CCE, would be able to use this power as it does not alter the printed numbers of the character using RCE.
Sorry, that's not correct. RCE can't be used at the same time as the figure is using another power. Willpower activates as soon as you assign the figure an action, even though the push damage occurs after the action. So Willpower+RCE is not allowed.

Superman Enemy grants the character Outwit. If Brainiac is next to an Intergang Agent, can Brainiac use Outwit VIA TEAM POWER, and RCE from his dial?
Yes, Braniac can use outwit, via the team ability, and RCE from his dial. However, he can't outwit his RCE target, and if he outwits someone else before attacking (such as a neighbour's defend), the outwit is lost and the outwitted power returns before he can use RCE.

Sinister Syndicate/Batman Enemy allows character to share Attack Values. This alters the printed value of the character, but based on the SHIELD example, this should be allowed.
Not 100% sure of this, but the limitation on altered printed values is on powers, not team abilities, so I would suspect it's allowed for that reason.

I'd stick with Tsannik's list - it's clear (thanks to some funky, spirited input) and covers everything... so far.

double_a

02/27/2003, 13:05

I'd have to say Spirit, Funky Jett & Tsannik are on the ball here.

I especially like how Spirit pointed out how using Outwit before the RCE attack can (unwittingly) not turn out like you expected - good example with Brainiac13.

Suffice to say that the onus is on the other powers to prove that it can work with RCE/CCE not the other way around.

This does not apply to team abilities - there is no restriction on using the team abilities themselves with RCE/CCE (note: Outwit from SupeEnemy is not an ability, it is a power).

shin-goji

02/27/2003, 13:10

When the game wsa new and no one knew the rules all that well, one of my friends had Cyclops sprint into a huddle of SHIELD Agents using Running Shot, RCE'd, then pumped up the damage with the SHIELD team ability. Turned Bruce Banner into green frosting on a cake. We all look back on it and laugh as it was an honest newbie mistake, and completely illegal.

sleepwalker23

02/27/2003, 13:14

I remember my first game when I didn't understand the rules. I started adjacent to my opponent ran V. Boomerang forward, then pushed him in the same turn and attacked my opponent using all three of his arrows with EE and RCE. I had killed him first turn!! I look back at that now and laugh at all the things I did wrong.

Doctor Strange

02/27/2003, 13:44

Hang on a second.
Now, the following is just my opinion. I speak it as if it were fact, but it's much clearer than saying "I think" before every sentence.

You can perplex a targets defense down with say, Doctor Octopus and then attack using bullseyes RCE.

The interaction between Octopus and the target are totally independent from the attack being made by the RCE figure.

If you disallow this, then you also are saying that you cannot use RCE to attack a target under the benefits of the defend superpower.

My point is, lots of powers work with RCE. Your opponents Invulnerability, toughness, supersenses. They are just completely independent from the RCE attack.

Enhancement cannot be used because it directly effects the attacker. Perplex can not be used to alter the attacker, this would mean that it is working with RCE so it's automatically disallowed.

Perplex can however effect the target, for that alteration of the characters dial is completely autonomous from the RCE attack.

Tsannik

02/27/2003, 13:49

You can perplex a targets defense down with say, Doctor Octopus and then attack using bullseyes RCE.
The interaction between Octopus and the target are totally independent from the attack being made by the RCE figure.
This is legal. If Dr. Octopus had RCE, he could not Perplex and then attack the same figure he Perplexed.

shin-goji

02/27/2003, 13:51

You know, at this rate we will need a forum JUST for RCE/CCE questions :)

spiderboy

02/28/2003, 01:39

Superman Enemy grants the character Outwit. If Brainiac is next to an Intergang Agent, can Brainiac use Outwit VIA TEAM POWER, and RCE from his dial?

Yes, Braniac can use outwit, via the team power, and RCE from his dial. However, he can't outwit his RCE target, and if he outwits someone else before attacking (such as a neighbour's defend), the outwit is lost and the outwitted power returns before he can use RCE.

I am not sure about DC cause i dont collect it but when you say "team power", do you actually mean team ability? If this is so, why cant Brainiac use it on his target? Its a team ability after all. Its not on the combat dial. But at the same time, like i said,im not sure. Sorry to trouble your tired fingers by the way. :p

Doctor Strange

02/28/2003, 02:13

The reason why Braniac can not use his outwit and RCE at the same time.

The superman enemy team actually gives the user the outwit power. He can't use this new power with RCE. He can technically use the superman enemy team while making a RCE attack tho, nothing is stopping him from doing the team ability, it's just that he can not actually use the outwit on his RCE target. Hope this helps..

Thanks Tsannik, for clearing up the Perplex/RCE thing.

On the subject of Superstrength and RCE. I ask you all to seriously rethink it for a moment.

True, you cannot use RCE with any other superpower. You can't use Willpower and CCE at the same time, because the Willpower would actually kick in and do something that would effect a part of the attack.

I think superstrength may be a bit different. The character holding the objects superstrength has absolutely no effect on the RCE attack. He is statically holding the object while the RCE resolves. True, he PAC itself says that RCE does not work with other super powers (such as Super Strength or Enhancement)

But what I am asking is this: Are they truly working together?

If a player tried to make a RCE attack with a thrown object than yes, but they are not working in concert by allowing a character to statically hold an object while performing a RCE attack.

Thanks for taking time to consider what I've said.

Funky Jett

02/28/2003, 02:28

Dr. S, I hear what you are saying, but the rulings are pretty clear. You cannot use any super power when you are trying to use CCE/RCE (with the exceptions as noted previously).

It's either Super Strength w/o CCE/RCE -- or --
It's CCE/RCE w/o Super Strength

And if you are carrying an object, the choice has been made for you. You are using SStr. You have to use the object before you can do anything else. And since you cannot use RCE with an object (as it is specifically pointed out in the FAQs), then you cannot use RCE at all. You DO have the option to make a simple ranged attack while holding an object, but consider...

RCE is taking the time to study your opponent's weaknesses so your shot does maximum damage. Can you REALLY do that while you're holding a dumpster? I hardly think so. Same thing in a CCE attack... you HAVE to use the dumpster then, and you are just making a homerun swing there. You are not taking the time to study your opponent and punch him where it hurts the most.

So logically it makes sense, and it is explicitly stated in the rules... CCE/RCE cannot be used with SStr.

TheSpirit

02/28/2003, 08:15

Originally posted by spiderboy
I am not sure about DC cause i dont collect it but when you say "team power", do you actually mean team ability? If this is so, why cant Brainiac use it on his target? Its a team ability after all.

Whoops, thanks for the catch. I edited my post to "team ability".

Why can't Brainiac use it? Well, it's a little tricky.The Superman Enemy team ability gives a figure the power of outwit, rather than just allowing him to outwit someone directly. It's a technicality that leads to some tricky situations. For example, you can outwit Brainiac's outwit, because it's a power, but you can't outwit his ability to be granted outwit, because that's the team ability's function. See the distinction?

DBI

D=Doomsday
B=Brainiac
I=Intergang Agent

All three have Superman Enemy team ability, so D (higher of D+B pair) and B (higher of B+I pair) get outwit. If an opponent could outwit Brainiac's team ability, he and Doomsday would lose outwit. But you can't outwit team abilities; just powers. So when the opponent outwits Brainiac's outwit, he doesn't lose the team ability which allows Doomsday to get outwit. Is this clear? It's a little hard to explain over the internet, but I hope I've imparted enough of the meaning to be clear.

Dr. Strange: I understand perfectly what you're saying (I'd always assumed the no SS/RCE combo was when throwing an object only), but WK has decided the restrictions on the use of RCE will be as strict as possible. Funky has rationalized this one well, so it makes sense to keep the two separate. Also keeps things simple and consistent. Good thinking, though.