Strangest question ever...?

[tyroclix]

I have a question regarding this SP:

TURNABOUT: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack he can as a free action immediately make a close combat attack targeting the character that attacked him.

Yes, its the 230 point Wrecker! I used him and a question came up. Seriously. Stop laughing...

Anyway, Wrecker got hit by Hercules with a Crit Hit during flurry. The Crit Hit activated his Turnabout - the problem was the timing of Wrecker's free attack vs the knockback the Crit Hit delivered.

How do you resolve this?

I went with intent (seeing as how a crit hit will always knock him back) and delivered his attack then knocking him back.

But his name isn't Nightcrawler and Special Powers are frequently worded incorrectly so did I do this right?

PS - This really happened...

[PONX]

he has charge before his SP appears on his dial. As far as that goes he can't get knocked back as long as he has his charge so he would be able to attack after the attack. If he were to be attacked while his SP is showing I, I don't think he would be able to commit to his free attack.

Plus from players guide page 14-7

#048 Wrecker
Turnabout: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat
attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he
possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can
as a free action immediately make a close combat attack
targeting the character that attacked him.

The guide has a slightly different wording making his free action happen before the knock back.

[CaptainNifty]

Isn't knockback part of the "resolution of the attack?"

If so, then knockback would occur then Turnabout.

[flatmatt]

Isn't knockback part of the "resolution of the attack?"

If so, then knockback would occur then Turnabout.
This is correct.

As I recall based on past rulings, Turnabout has to be showing both when the critical hit/miss is rolled and after the attack resolves. So this power will rarely matter on a critical hit, as you won't be able to use charge to ignore the knockback from a critical hit.

[rowdyoctopus]

To me, the wording of the power indicates you could make the attack even if you are knocked back. Otherwise why would they even include Critical Hits? For the few times knockback is blocked due to terrain/objects/characters?

Also, the power specifies if he possesses the power after the attack. It doesn't say still possesses, or anything about before the attack. I would say that means that if a critical hit knocks him from his starting click to a click with that power, he would be able to use it.

[Captain Krueger]

Knockback happens before he gets a chance to retaliate, sadly. That is, of course IF he can be knockback and IF knockback actually move him out of adjacency. So many things can happen...
To me, the wording of the power indicates you could make the attack even if you are knocked back. Otherwise why would they even include Critical Hits? For the few times knockback is blocked due to terrain/objects/characters?
Well actually, you're right. But there is more to this.
First, critical hits don't generate knockback : doubles do. And not all crit hits are doubles. Play Extraordinary Day BFC and attack rolls of 11 will be critical hits, yet they won't generate knockback. Other things have similar effects, like the feat And Stay Down! (one of my personal favorites). The TA Guardian of the Globe woudl also change things (that prevent knockback from happening on a double, even a critical hit).
Second, the Turnabout power doesn't need to be visible on the dial at the time the attack is rolled : if it appears during the resolution of an action where a critical hit was rolled, it will activate. Since Wrecker has Charge on his firsts couple of clics, he's immune to knockback at that time.
Third : in order for knockback to have any visible effect, the character need 1/ to take damage, a fact that Wrecker might disgree with (Impervious can sometimes work, you know ;) ) and 2/ to be able to move. If Wrecker has a character or a blocking terrain right behind him, knockback won't move him very far. And if you play well, this can happen more than a few time : just make sure to keep a character behind him and the job's done.
Also, the power specifies if he possesses the power after the attack. It doesn't say still possesses, or anything about before the attack. I would say that means that if a critical hit knocks him from his starting click to a click with that power, he would be able to use it.
That is complettly correct.

Wrecker power is always at best situational. Even without the knockback issue it would still activates only on crit.

[tyroclix]

Interesting interpretation regarding this part of his SP:

if he possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack he can as a free action immediately make a close combat attack targeting the character that attacked him.

Not sure 100% I agree but I can buy it - especially on a 230 point figure with so many hindrances.

That being said, Wrecker really hung in there. My dice crapped out at the end but he was pounding away, beating Arkillo down horribly, as well as a misplaced Iron Widow. If I could have rolled a 7 in any of his last 3 attacks he would have KO'd Hercules. But alas, Crit Misses don't help.

Thanks for the input.

[Questions]

Checked with nbperp and like CaptainNifty indicated, the knockback would occur and then Wrecker could use Turnabout if possible. If the knockback moved Wrecker so that he was no longer adjacent to the attacker, then he could not make the close combat attack.

[PONX]

Checked with nbperp and like CaptainNifty indicated, the knockback would occur and then Wrecker could use Turnabout if possible. If the knockback moved Wrecker so that he was no longer adjacent to the attacker, then he could not make the close combat attack.

I see you checked with Norm, just want to clerify

from players guide page 14-7

#048 Wrecker
Turnabout: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat
attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he
possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can
as a free action immediately make a close combat attack
targeting the character that attacked him.

The bolded text has the word "immediately" in it. I was under the impression that "immediately" happens as soon as it's activated, then knockback would be applied.

[Harpua]

I see you checked with Norm, just want to clerify

from players guide page 14-7

#048 Wrecker
Turnabout: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat
attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he
possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can
as a free action immediately make a close combat attack
targeting the character that attacked him.

The bolded text has the word "immediately" in it. I was under the impression that "immediately" happens as soon as it's activated, then knockback would be applied.

Well, earlier in the sentence it says that the immediaty is happening immediately after the resolution of the attack.

[Questions]

I see you checked with Norm, just want to clerify

from players guide page 14-7

#048 Wrecker
Turnabout: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat
attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he
possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can
as a free action immediately make a close combat attack
targeting the character that attacked him.

The bolded text has the word "immediately" in it. I was under the impression that "immediately" happens as soon as it's activated, then knockback would be applied.

I would have agreed with you. As we know from Pulse Wave, knock back is not part of the attack. So the attack should resolve, Wrecker should get to immediately make the close combat attack, and then the knock back should occur.

Maybe this can be reexamined. (In other words, good point PONX and I'll follow up with nbperp unless he posts here first.)

[Quebbster]

As we know from Pulse Wave, knock back is not part of the attack.
I am not familiar with this precedent. Care to explain it?

[PONX]

Just posting prior thread to justify my question

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284265&highlight=immediately

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190536&highlight=immediately

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278116&highlight=immediately

In defense to wrecker, because he is one of my favorites (don't ask) he starts with charge so he has a good chance of using his SP. So don't give up on him.

[Harpua]

As we know from Pulse Wave, knock back is not part of the attack.
This isn't true.

If you are thinking back to the days (pre-nbperp) when Charge prevented KB during PW, that ruling hasn't existed for a long time.

[Harpua]

Just posting prior thread to justify my question

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284265&highlight=immediately

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=190536&highlight=immediately

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278116&highlight=immediately

In defense to wrecker, because he is one of my favorites (don't ask) he starts with charge so he has a good chance of using his SP. So don't give up on him.
Yes, but there's also this:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4919138&postcount=10
;)

[PONX]

((trying not to smile))

[Questions]

I am not familiar with this precedent. Care to explain it?

This isn't true.

If you are thinking back to the days (pre-nbperp) when Charge prevented KB during PW, that ruling hasn't existed for a long time.

Had been thinking the same as you, but I did a quick search and found a thread that said otherwise. Only problem was that I didn't read deep enough into a thread. normalview was mistaken. (Not a slight...really what happened.) Ignore my older post.

[Questions]

I see you checked with Norm, just want to clerify

from players guide page 14-7

#048 Wrecker
Turnabout: When Wrecker is the target of a close combat
attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he
possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can
as a free action immediately make a close combat attack
targeting the character that attacked him.

The bolded text has the word "immediately" in it. I was under the impression that "immediately" happens as soon as it's activated, then knockback would be applied.

Well, earlier in the sentence it says that the immediaty is happening immediately after the resolution of the attack.

Now that everything is settled...knock back is part of the attack. So let's say Wrecker's Charge is Outwitted. Wrecker is targetted with a close combat attack. The attack is a critical hit. The attacker deals damage. Wrecker is clicked. Wrecker is knocked back away from the attacker. The attack now resolves. Wrecker has Turnabout so he could make a close combat attack, targetting the attacker, but since he is no longer adjacent to the attacker he cannot make the close combat attack. (Just like nbperp confirmed. :))

[flakbait]

You could give him Lunge and hope that the attack knocks him onto one of his CCE clix. :)

[Captain Krueger]

Woh. Hadn't think about that. It's worth give it a try.
REp to you my friend.

[Questions]

You could give him Lunge and hope that the attack knocks him onto one of his CCE clix. :)

But sadly even Lunge doesn't make Turnabout better since Lunge requires Wrecker to be given an action.

[nbperp]

But sadly even Lunge doesn't make Turnabout better since Lunge requires Wrecker to be given an action.

I don't see the issue.

When Wrecker is the target of a close combat attack resulting in a critical hit or a critical miss, if he possesses Turnabout after the resolution of the attack, he can as a free action immediately make a close combat attack targeting the character that attacked him.

When the character is given an action, but immediately before it makes a close combat attack, it can break away automatically and move up to 2 squares.

[Questions]

I don't see the issue.

Nice. I'll take it. :)

Could a wild card change team abilities in response to Turnabout?