Should all non-generic figures be unique? [Archive]

PDA

View Full Version : Should all non-generic figures be unique?

Pages : [1] 2

thugit

08/09/2010, 15:42

What say you?

Silver Lantern

08/09/2010, 15:43

Didn't we already have this thread... :p

I am all for highlander, so I say YES!

sol

08/09/2010, 15:45

Absolutely not.

Behemoth

08/09/2010, 15:45

Yes. I think that the unique silver ring should be reversed: Only generics get the ring and it means that they can be used in multiples on a team.

Thrumble Funk

08/09/2010, 15:46

Nope. If I one day decide to make a miner-themed team, I don't want to be unable to do so because Cave Carson is unique. That's one example.

songwriterz

08/09/2010, 15:47

No.

and...still no.

shanbo83

08/09/2010, 15:47

i don't mind folks using two batmans if they are two different batmans, but using 2 oots batmans is something i think should go away, except in home games.

Treads4heads

08/09/2010, 15:52

Norym

08/09/2010, 15:54

I think that there should be a ring like the silver Unique ring to denote Generic. The rules can stay the same but it would allow for another layer of game type to be specified.

And I like more unique figs. I almost never use Dupes (except generics) and hate to face them.

shanbo83

08/09/2010, 15:57

I say yes, when I play this game, I do it for the shear enjoyment of using my favorite characters and playing them in battles they've never been in. I do not enjoy trying to visualize why on earth there are multiple batmen staring at me from across the board, or scarlet witch/jason bloods for that matter.

well said, but how about high level tournaments like at gencon, do you feel the same way or would you like to see variety in other teams you would face. (should probably note ive never even played in a tournament, just hate seeing on of my buddies keep playing the same people over and over again.)

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 15:58

I think all fantasy football players should be running backs and linebackers, and all military role playing games should use MK V Panthers.

Seriously, it is strictly cheese to use multiple OOTS Batmen, or multiple of any figures. Our venues are pretty much all "Highlanders" rules around here, maybe through peer pressure I don't know. And whatever the rationale, we all know the spirit of the game is not exactly the letter of the game. That said, as long as we have the Uniques rings on figs, we will keep having folks who use much creativity like playing multiples of the same non generic figure.

Treads4heads

08/09/2010, 16:05

well said, but how about high level tournaments like at gencon, do you feel the same way or would you like to see variety in other teams you would face. (should probably note ive never even played in a tournament, just hate seeing on of my buddies keep playing the same people over and over again.)

I guess that's where I differ from high level play and why I'm not involved with it. Again, this being one of my hobbies, I enjoy the visuals and excitment this game can bring mentally while playing with friends. I do not have any fun trying to make a team that uses technicalities and/or built around silly over powered characters.

If it was me, the highest level of play would consist of people who are able to take one of their favorite superhero/villian(s), and construct a team around them and take it to the top. Not expecting to see the same 10 figs because they have the most influence on the "metagame". Because lets be honest here, does kidflash or metron really have THAT many fanboys?

songwriterz

08/09/2010, 16:06

I've always wanted to field an all Spider-man team but its hard to do that with Highlander rule. I'm not wanting to be cheesy, just .... Spidery!

With this set I can now unleash Spidey, Scarlet Spidey, Venom, Doppleganger, etc... Still not an "All Spidey Squad", but very, very close.

BTW - anyone else notice that all 3 Hulks in this set, Red Hulk, Red She-Hulk, and Spider-Hulk add up to an even 500pts?!?!? That's a big "Woot!" right there!

Dragon_Rose

08/09/2010, 16:09

I am sure the tournaments would be based on more true strategy of the game, and whole lot more fun. Though I would not mind playing different versions of the same characters when I feel like doing a parallel dimensions/time warp theme. :)

Entropy

08/09/2010, 16:19

No and it is impractical from neca's point of view it is impractical. But if you were advocating that in the highest level events that rule be in place like a scenario I might thing that was a decent idea

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 16:19

Yeah, looks like I am in agreement with the large majority, so far at least. Truly, not really impressed with a strategy that relies on a loophole or a discrepancy in cost vs value. I love theme teams and those that play them, but seeing multiple cheap PC'ers on the winning team really disappointed me. It set clix back, and lots of non comics fans will emulate that kind of team. How fun:
A:Okay, I hit for 2!
B: reroll
A: Okay, hit for 2 again.
B: reroll
A: C'mon, man, I hit you again for 2!
B: reroll
A: Alright, crit hit!! for 3 plus knockback!
B: reroll
A: brilliant freaking strategy B, see ya later.

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 16:22

Nope. If I one day decide to make a miner-themed team, I don't want to be unable to do so because Cave Carson is unique. That's one example.

Worst example I think I've ever seen on here! A miner theme team? good luck with that. If that justifies to you using 4x 50 pt Spideys, or 3 Scarlet Witches, go for it!

Wait, I am a numbskull. I just re-read your post and I am thinking you were being tongue-in-cheek with that. if so, then sorry :)

robedestroyer

08/09/2010, 16:25

I'm all for letting people play what they want to play, but I voted Yes. I just don't like it when I see multiple non-generic characters on a team.

With this said, could somebody clarify the "No Duplicates" rule for tournaments? I was recently in a tournament where a player wanted to use Kingdom Come Green Lantern. He also had on his team the Starro Slave Green Lantern. They are different figures, different numbers, and different characters, but they do have the same name "Green Lantern." Does this violate the "No Duplicates" rule? The judge ruled that it does violate the rule, but everyone at the tournament wanted to let the guy play his figure (judge still would not allow him to do so).

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 16:32

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 16:34

robedestroyer

08/09/2010, 16:36

KC Green Lantern is Alan Scott anyway, right? I always kind of assumed it was multiples of the same exact figure, but could see the logic of not using the same "person" twice. Just this past weekend a guy would not play Speedball and Penance on his team at the same time. Felt guilty that they were the same guy on the same team twice. I respect that.

KC Green Lantern he wanted to use was Alan Scott and the Starro Slave I think is Hal Jordan. The only thing that is the same about them is having the name "Green Lantern." So I don't know if that violates the "No Duplicates" rule (I know it's probably subjective to each venue), but just wanted to find out.

bluelantern01

08/09/2010, 16:39

I have thought about this a lot (as I am sure you all have) and I have to say, "no."

First, this is a game, not a simulation and the ability to add multiples of certain figures is important (if for no other reason than to sometimes fill out a team).

Second, even from the point of view of "comicbook accuracy," there are time travel story arcs, clone stories, extradimensional travel, etc. All of these are reasons for dupes.

I do think that more thought should go into what makes a figure "unique". Why are SI Namor and Hercules unique, but Skrull Ms. Marvel is not? Why is Nick Fury unique when he has at least dozens if not hundreds of LMDs running around?

DarkBlueAnt

08/09/2010, 16:41

I think non-generics should be unique but the same character from different sets should be okay to be on a team together too. Also different versions of REV figures should be alright.

In general I like this to have a comic roleplay feel, and comics have clones and alternate universe events all the time. So my compromise is allowing characters to team up with themselves as long as they're at least slightly different.

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 16:45

KC Green Lantern he wanted to use was Alan Scott and the Starro Slave I think is Hal Jordan. The only thing that is the same about them is having the name "Green Lantern." So I don't know if that violates the "No Duplicates" rule (I know it's probably subjective to each venue), but just wanted to find out.

Yeah, the judge blew that call, and you and your fellow players were correct. Based on that judge's call, every one of MANY Green Lanterns would be uplayable together- John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, etc. That is just crazy:confused:

robedestroyer

08/09/2010, 16:47

As long as the game is sold as random boosters then no. How many U Avengers Iron men got junked, cut up for mods, thrown into a box never to return, or just thrown in the garbage? Sure there's always a few common figures you end up with lots of, but you can always (maybe kid yourself into thinking) field 3 or 4 of them in a team.

All non generics as uniques will completely change the y way people buy the game.

Tarnish

Well, that was a compelling enough argument for me. I change my vote from a Yes to a No. When the game is sold through random boosters, making almost all of the figures unique could destroy the company. Think about it, for those of use who buy multiple cases, would you still buy multiple cases if they were all uniques? You're not being honest with yourself if you say yes.

MattMinus

08/09/2010, 16:49

Bat-Phreak

08/09/2010, 16:50

I do not mind an ocassional Anything Goes Cheese-Fest or Clone Wars scenario where my opponent fields 3 x OotS Batman with 4 x HoT Caps for fire support, but I strongly prefer Highlander rules.

I don't mind (that much) when multiple Batmen are fielded, as long as they are different Batmen: a What-If where OotS Bats teamed-up with SinCor Bats, or somesuch.

It's actually fun fielding multiple Robins: Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Jason Todd. They all contribute differently, but work very well as support for Bruce.

Norym

08/09/2010, 16:51

It's not like there are Infinite Earths or anything...

There are only 52 in DC and things are either drastically different or subtly different on each, but something is different.

Marvel goes somewhere in the 6 digit range, maybe some letters in there as well, but things are always a bit different , including characters..

DeadpoolDX

08/09/2010, 16:51

i'm all for the highlander rule when I play mulitples (except generics) are never allowed and I think it makes the game more fun. One exception we do use is different versions of characters i.e. Cap and Ult Cap.

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 16:52

It's not like there are Infinite Earths or anything...

Only in Marvel. For DC figures I support a cap of 52 copies of any non generic figure.

:laugh:

Tarnish

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 16:59

Only in Marvel. For DC figures I support a cap of 52 copies of any non generic figure.

:laugh:

Tarnish

You give a great argument for a "yes" to uniques then. The whole point of the infinite earths is that each are different, and the main characters are also slightly askew. I've read plenty of DC and Marvel stuff and I've yet to run across EXACTLY identical duplicates of say Spider Man or Superman, etc. Hence allowing different clix of the same character on a team, but not 3 identical Caps or Scarlet Witches.
great creativity there, alright!

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 17:03

You give a great argument for a "yes" to uniques then. The whole point of the infinite earths is that each are different, and the main characters are also slightly askew. I've read plenty of DC and Marvel stuff and I've yet to run across EXACTLY identical duplicates of say Spider Man or Superman, etc. Hence allowing different clix of the same character on a team, but not 3 identical Caps or Scarlet Witches.
great creativity there, alright!

See I would have thought the :laugh: made it obvious I was joking.

And you don't see exactly the same characters from Marvel in different universes because it would be boring. Canonically in Marvel there is an infinite number of alternate Universes, some different only in the way certain subatomic particles split in the Andromeda Galaxy.

Of course this depends on what any one writer/editors views on "cannon" are this week.

Tarnish

Tarnish

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 17:07

I saw the smiley face, I assumed you were being saracastically "supportive" of the earlier post. My bad if it came off as me taking you too literally
:)

ccs

08/09/2010, 17:11

I say NO.

Because as cheesy as it can be, seeing multiples of the same character (even the exact same guy) is completely comic accurate.
There's no end of examples of clones, magic, time travel, alternate universes, robots, imposters, super speed, etc etc etc & whatever in the books.

If every non-generic fig became a unique? You'd lose the ability to recreate these moments.
You'd also lose the ability to make up your own "what if" stories without house-rules. (Oh no, a Grodd & hoard of Super-Apes {as in more than 3} have invaded Metropolis. Can the Justice Leage fend them off? Let's find out....
My Braniac robots {all mounted on BatB Brainiac/Luthor dials} would never be able to amass in #s to attack Kandor. :(
I couldn't simulate Quicksilver being fast enough to litterly be everywhere on the board by running multiples.
For that matter it'd make figs like Multiple Man, Multiplex, & Triplicate Girl comic inaccurate!)
And it'd make sealed play damned hard in many cases.

I love comic accuracy. But playing that way should be a choice, not a forced default that'll, in fact, HINDER my efforts to do so.

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 17:12

I saw the smiley face, I assumed you were being saracastically "supportive" of the earlier post. My bad if it came off as me taking you too literally
:)

No problem. This why we all need to support teal as the color of sarcasm.

Tarnish

sol

08/09/2010, 17:21

I super-duper hate the idea of people forcing their 'reality' on my game. The rules say dupes are allowed. They are allowed. It's a game, not a comic book you get to write whenever you want. And if it was, my lord how boring and trite a book that would be. I'd rather be forced to read Loeb's stuff over and over again.

The game is not made to support the argument that everything be unique. You can't even get rid of the dupes you have now, but you want to force uniqueness on people with the peices that are non-unique? They are blind purchases. This game isn't made based on the 'army figure' model, like say, DDM or Star Wars Miniatures where most of the figures are soldier-type figures.

The idiotic argument that as soon as you see two Caps or Batmans is 'cheese' falls apart at the soon as you say anything regarding the nature of 'reality' and a comic book. The idea that 'even though there are inifinite universes, or 52 but different universes' as a means to shore up your no dupes stance is fallacious as soon as I point out economically, it's impossible for me to expect Bucky from Earth-23978 or Superman from Earth-12 so I've got to come up with another way to express that if that's what i want to do. Lo and behold! I've got an extra Winter Soldier or Experienced Icons Superman. You are nobody to tell me different. Neither is Wizkids, for that matter. I paid for it. The rules support it.

The conceit that it's only 'comic-accurate' to play one version of a figure at a time is only as valid as your narrow point of view, which is where you play.

And don't get me wrong - I play the same way most of you suggest. Until I don't feel like it. Cause y'know, I can.

I can and will do it should I so choose.

commandercool

08/09/2010, 17:25

Sure. We play it that way much of the time anyway. Specifically I would make each exactly identical version of a character unique, which would allow for thematic play in the various ways that people always use to justify cheesy duplicates (LMDs, pan-dimensional crossovers, clones, etc.) without as much of a cheese factor. If you want three Spidermen to team up, they can't all be that stupid Secret Invasion Spiderman.

malger

08/09/2010, 17:26

Personally, I try to avoid using 2 or more of the same character on as team, but after much consideration, I would not want characters to be unique. I think it would ruin the sustainability of the game. We would either have to go with just 2 rarities, generic and unique or we would have to go with the action pack model because no body would want multiples of any non-unique characters, except possibly for display purposes.

How would you be able to play a Captain Britain Corps team or Legion of Three Worlds?

robedestroyer

08/09/2010, 17:32

No problem. This why we all need to support teal as the color of sarcasm.

Tarnish

That's a really good idea. You are so smart!

Hmm, I think it works. :laugh:

turdburglar47

08/09/2010, 17:39

My only caveat is that I want to play an all-Mysterio team.

songwriterz

08/09/2010, 17:43

My only caveat is that I want to play an all-Mysterio team.

Which is thematic and comic accurate and should be allowed.

Wizkids has a mechanism in place to control duplicates abuse: the Unique ring. If the game designers and manufacturers themselves think it is okay to use dupes then why do we need to complicate things even further by trying to house rule everything?

RandomAtom

08/09/2010, 17:44

My friends and I always play it like they are anyway so it wouldn't really bother me.

thugit

08/09/2010, 17:46

Business aspect aside, how would this affect playing multiples of named characters?

I said non-generic FIGURES...not characters.

You could still run multiple Batmen--just not copies of the exact same FIGURE.

I didn't realize that I had threatened liberty itself... ;)

sol

08/09/2010, 17:51

I didn't realize that I had threatened liberty itself... ;)

Oh, but you had...my username is an anagram of 'Sentinel of Liberty'.

The way I see it, most of you nancy-boys will never see the 'logic' against 'no-named-dupes-i-will-never-use-the-lambert-term', and I will never stop trolling any thread where it's brought up.

Because it's an imposition on me (and others).

EDIT: Nancy-boys was supposed to be funny. Oh well, I'll take my lumps.

thugit

08/09/2010, 17:51

Which is thematic and comic accurate and should be allowed.

Wizkids has a mechanism in place to control duplicates abuse: the Unique ring. If the game designers and manufacturers themselves think it is okay to use dupes then why do we need to complicate things even further by trying to house rule everything?

I would wager that it has far more to do with blind boosters than gameplay. The current unique system is sketchy at best.

JRS4

08/09/2010, 17:55

Absolutly NOT!!! There are so many reasons to have multiples of a character.
Beside why should we limit the way people play.

First and foremost this is a strategy combat game. The fact that it is built around comic book characters is a huge bonus.

azureai

08/09/2010, 17:56

I'm surprised to see all the Yes votes up there, to be honest. From a gameplay perspective, a permanent hilander rule makes very little sense. What if I get two identical boosters in sealed? That's just one way a game could go south with that rule. When I run my Star Sapphires team, I need to run multiple Star Sapphires.

Most of the characters that there should only be one of are already uniques. Everything else is just gravy.

robedestroyer

08/09/2010, 17:59

Oh, but you had...my username is an anagram of 'Sentinel of Liberty'.

The way I see it, most of you nancy-boys will never see the 'logic' against 'no-named-dupes-i-will-never-use-the-lambert-term', and I will never stop trolling any thread where it's brought up.

Because it's an imposition on me (and others).

sol... This is for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyde8BON2HQ) That is a wonderful thing you just said.

Not sure what the Japanese girl has to do with anything, but oh well. :laugh:

EDIT: Sorry, after watching the full video, the message a little more creepy than I had anticipated.

PISCEAN

08/09/2010, 18:00

For casual play among friends I don't think it matters. Play for your enjoyment. If you want a team of all Spidermen then go for it.

However, for tournament play I strongly support Highlander rules. I think it will change the dynamic of team building and foster more creativity than just seeing what works best with 2 captain America's. Instead of just grouping the best figures there will be more variety and some of those "borderline" figures will see more play.

Our local tournaments use Highlander rules as well as a variety of build scenarios which allows and encourages players to utilize a far greater range of their collections. It's good to get those old figures off the bench once in awhile and even better if they can still earn you a prize :)

Xuco

08/09/2010, 18:14

You know, not everyone takes great pains to achieve comic accuracy. I personally do just the opposite. I love to play figures from different teams and different universes together. It is how I have fun, and I don't see why people want to infringe upon that. I want to play Captain America, Rorshach, and Spider-Mans on my team. Why are you trying to stop me? :laugh:

I think the unique designation should be used for game balance, which I think is what they try to do but don't always necessarily succeed. They should keep trying though :)

thugit

08/09/2010, 18:21

Dupes: Because it's your patriotic duty.

:)

rancidtwinkie

08/09/2010, 18:21

The conceit that it's only 'comic-accurate' to play one version of a figure at a time is only as valid as your narrow point of view, which is where you play.

QFT. I have brought it up before, and will also do so again.

Are proponents of the "unique rule with a catchy title" because of 'comic accuracy' also proposing 'single universe only' for the same reason?
If it isn't comic accurate to have more than one Batman, it sure isn't accurate to have a Green Lantern towing around a pack of Hand Ninjas.

And while on that topic, how about 'Heroes vs Villains'. Why do the people who push the Scottsman-with-a-Katana rules totally ignore the contrary nature of having villains on the same team as heroes - particularly arch-enemies (a rule that used to exist!)?

Now someone posted here that they are OK with someone fielding multiple of the same character, but not of the same figure - please explain the rational for that one. Certainly not comic accuracy.

Also, there are so many characters that have legitimate comic exceptions to the 'rule-named-after-a-movie-franchise-that-blew-chunks-after-the-first' that the exception list would be more comprehensive than the Rule Book I've seen some of the phone book sized lists that some venues require to be read and followed in order to play at - and it is absurd.

Herrbrane

08/09/2010, 18:24

songwriterz

08/09/2010, 18:24

Oh, but you had...my username is an anagram of 'Sentinel of Liberty'.

The way I see it, most of you nancy-boys will never see the 'logic' against 'no-named-dupes-i-will-never-use-the-lambert-term', and I will never stop trolling any thread where it's brought up.

Because it's an imposition on me (and others).

EDIT: Nancy-boys was supposed to be funny. Oh well, I'll take my lumps.

Been lotsa lumps handed down today apparently. I've gotten a couple myself.

LOL - I thought you had named yourself after the sun, "Sol".

Herrbrane

08/09/2010, 18:27

I think the unique designation should be used for game balance, which I think is what they try to do but don't always necessarily succeed. They should keep trying though :)

I wholeheartedly agree

deadfool

08/09/2010, 18:32

that would clixs like cuckoo's and multiple man pointless so no

commandercool

08/09/2010, 18:43

Beside why should we limit the way people play.

Why limit the way we play indeed. Let's do away with petty constraints like point values and team sizes! ;)

Overdrive

08/09/2010, 18:47

Wizkids has a mechanism in place to control duplicates abuse: the Unique ring. If the game designers and manufacturers themselves think it is okay to use dupes then why do we need to complicate things even further by trying to house rule everything?

This is so simple...yet so true! Amazing!

I'm very happy with many non-generics being playable in combination - it's totally supported by the kinds of stories you read all the time in the comics, and even if it weren't it wouldn't be an issue, since Heroclix isn't a comic - it's a game using pieces based on comic book characters.

The only thing I wish is that "Generics" were identified in some way and perhaps had benefits to being used in multiples. True, some have this though SPs (Moloid, Phalanx Soldier) and the Minion powers have been really cool, but I kinda wish there was a coloured ring to denote any generic figure, and a game rule giving a benefit to using more than one generic on your force (like, any figure with the Generic ring can use the Carry ability but only to move another Generic figure, or any move actions given to figures with the Generic ring don't count towards your actions for the turn, etc.).

thugit

08/09/2010, 18:50

Now someone posted here that they are OK with someone fielding multiple of the same character, but not of the same figure - please explain the rational for that one. Certainly not comic accuracy.

I said it. Now I will let you tell me where I said anything here about comic accuracy.

I'm waiting...

JRS4

08/09/2010, 18:58

Why limit the way we play indeed. Let's do away with petty constraints like point values and team sizes! ;)

See that's the spirit!!! Now we are getting somewhere. To heck with points and keyword restrictions.. Play what you want when you want no matter what...

I'm assuming you know what I meant.

Note: I learned earlier today that Turquoise is the color of Sarcasm

rancidtwinkie

08/09/2010, 19:06

I said it. Now I will let you tell me where I said anything here about comic accuracy.

I'm waiting...

I didn't state you said anything about comic accuracy, I said "Certainly not" implying that it was a preemptive counter-argument. But much like SoL stated, logic has never really been a strong point in the 'TV-series-based-on-a-movie-franchise' rule arguments.

sol

08/09/2010, 19:10

I said it. Now I will let you tell me where I said anything here about comic accuracy.

I'm waiting...

Oh come on. You know this is an age-old argument. It would have come up, even if it wasn't you who said it.

thugit

08/09/2010, 19:17

Oh come on. You know this is an age-old argument. It would have come up, even if it wasn't you who said it.

You are absolutely right, but it wasn't what I was saying. He quoted what I said, then commented on comic accuracy.

That implies that I said it...and I didn't.

sol

08/09/2010, 19:20

You are absolutely right, but it wasn't what I was saying. He quoted what I said, then commented on comic accuracy.

That implies that I said it...and I didn't.

Ah, I did not see who quoted what.

2 Gun Kid

08/09/2010, 19:22

No they shouldnt all be Unique but with the exception of generics double characters shouldnt count towards theme team.

biz567

08/09/2010, 19:25

Behemoth

08/09/2010, 19:32

No they shouldnt all be Unique but with the exception of generics double characters shouldnt count towards theme team.

That is a neat idea. Now that you put this up, I think my biggest gripe is keyword bonus using duplicates of non-generic figures.

Rep to you good sir.

Dremak

08/09/2010, 19:34

Absolutely not. Primary problem being that it would make a number of figures totally useless. Extant, Jackal, Stepford Cuckoos, mutliple man, and on and on that aren't generics. And if you dislike someone usuing multiple OOTS or Cloudfoots then plan on it or houserule it. WK could always errata any figs they find are too abusive in multiples to be unique.

VictorySaber

08/09/2010, 19:35

No to non-generics all being unique... but for true competition I'd be interested to see something put into place for a WK scenario or two that would require you could only use a single copy of a non-generic piece per set... i.e. a single smokey boot cap, and say, an Armor Wars Vet Cap.

An OotS Bat and an Exp Icons Bat. T me highlander or highlander-esque scenarios push for creativity and thinking outside the regular metagame box.... because let's face it. The meta's going to be an issue for folks eventually, no matter how much a group in general just plays because they love the game, and want to have the fun. At least, that sorta resounds with me... dunno about anyone else.

Clixjunkie

08/09/2010, 19:54

It does make sense to have the non-generics as uniques, BUT it would make getting double really really painful.

Especially in a sealed event. Parish the thought if you got two boosters that were exact duplicates. Yikes!!

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 20:25

The Sealed booster argument is the only one that logically stands. Yes, it would be a pain to get two boosters and they both had Mysterios ( I should be so lucky!). That aside, different versions of the same character are definitely more acceptable to the previously discussed ideas of infinite earths, comic accuracy, etc. Marvel's earths, DC's 52 earths, etc, all have varying main characters. Same name(usually) but always different. And heck, "comic accuracy" always changes every few writers, and isn't really the issue to me anyway! I think the only isue really being debated is duplicates of EXACTLY the same figure (non generics), with their respective powers/values.
A fig like Multiplex or one of the Cuckoos that does operate in multiples could very easily have a trait or the reversed silver ring idea to show you can use multiples.

Once again, I'll just call it as we all know it is: cheese. Let people rationalize their own inability to come up with creative, fun teams that don't use multiple versions of a figure that's got a gimmicky advantage. Is it legal in the game? of course it is.
Is it lame (in my opinion)? very much so.

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 20:41

Once again, I'll just call it as we all know it is: cheese. Let people rationalize their own inability to come up with creative, fun teams that don't use multiple versions of a figure that's got a gimmicky advantage. Is it legal in the game? of course it is.
Is it lame (in my opinion)? very much so.

So do you want to make all team building that can be cheese against the rules? If a certain figure is cheesy on it's own should you not be allowed to use it? HSS with range is pretty cheesy according to a lot of people, so no using that either?

Don't kid yourself that enacting this rule would diminish "cheese play" in the least. Some people will always play in a way that some people don't like and some people will always think it's "cheese".

I've seen people call cheese on a Longshot figure on an X-men theme team. I have no faith in the HCrealms community to judge what is and is not cheese and by extrapolation what kinds of teams I should be allowed to build.

Tarnish

MistahJustice

08/09/2010, 20:42

While there is a house rule in effect restricting all players at my venue from playing multiple copies of the same figure (other than gens), I do think it's a good idea or at least establish a rule much like our house rule. It just makes sense unless a new scenario is in play.

Catman25

08/09/2010, 20:44

yes....it is sad that all the "top" teams need to use multiple of the same figure.

HappyTrain

08/09/2010, 20:50

I say no. Sometimes it's fun to make use of multiples and run a team that has a lot of the same figure. It just looks preposterous and I like that.

sleeping_giant

08/09/2010, 20:50

Wow good question. At first thought id say no. Because i hate being goverened and any more restrictions is just blood boiling. But after a bit of thought id be ok with non generics being unique. But there has to be some sort of way to play dups if the theme calls for it like clones and such. C'mon wizkids figure somethin out to make us all happy.

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 20:58

So do you want to make all team building that can be cheese against the rules? If a certain figure is cheesy on it's own should you not be allowed to use it? HSS with range is pretty cheesy according to a lot of people, so no using that either?

Don't kid yourself that enacting this rule would diminish "cheese play" in the least. Some people will always play in a way that some people don't like and some people will always think it's "cheese".

I've seen people call cheese on a Longshot figure on an X-men theme team. I have no faith in the HCrealms community to judge what is and is not cheese and by extrapolation what kinds of teams I should be allowed to build.

Tarnish
Absolutely agree with you on everything you say about cheese, but I clearly have only talked about the use of identical figures. Not any of those other examples given by you. Besides, errata takes care of most examples of anything would throw the game out of balance or goes against the game's intent.

the fact is, this game is VERY MUCH predicated on comic book characters and events. period. Wizkids isn't making up their own characters and then making clix of those characters. Look at the hundreds of pages of postings on Nightcrawler's dial or OOTS Batman, Dr Strange, or any of a number of other characters/events when wizkids deviates from soem people's perception of the comic character! Then to have someone argue like a previous poster that any comic consideration is just idiotic is ironic at best. So having a little game play accuracy to go with comics; "reality" wouldn't bother most people. Luckily we get to choose which venues we play at.

I do think it is interesting that most every venue people talk about on here, and that I've been to, use Highlander rules. Likely a reason for that?

I'd be all about making game play - OTHER THAN BOOSTER Draw tournys- non-generic unique.

sol

08/09/2010, 21:20

the fact is, this game is VERY MUCH predicated on comic book characters and events. period. Wizkids isn't making up their own characters and then making clix of those characters. Look at the hundreds of pages of postings on Nightcrawler's dial or OOTS Batman, Dr Strange, or any of a number of other characters/events when wizkids deviates from soem people's perception of the comic character! Then to have someone argue like a previous poster that any comic consideration is just idiotic is ironic at best. So having a little game play accuracy to go with comics; "reality" wouldn't bother most people. Luckily we get to choose which venues we play at.

Let's go make the argument I've already said is absurd. How is it ironic that I said it's idiotic? It is. It's a comic book. Where literally anything can happen. It's not my imagination that is lacking, sir.

And then, we don't even need to get into comic book reason for people to play dupes or not. The line is crossed when you start telling people how to play, when Wizkids did not (and i'm sure there would be people who would break the rule if it were).

As far as being able to choose what venues we play, the door swings both ways. For years we had that same rule, which of course, I always fought with until I got it changed. I think in all the years since, I've played all of 2 teams that actually had duplicate figures on it. One, a Justice League of Batmen, and another an Avengers team with 2 Scarlet Witches on it. One had a 'comic book' explanation (even if people didn't like it) and the other was sillyness to try and get the Sentry to at least get Charge. Both teams were fun, but the Sentry team is one of my absolute favorites -- and by the so called rules of people like you, I wouldn't have been able to play it.

Wombatboy

08/09/2010, 21:23

No and no. First there's the sealed issue. Second, if I want to play an army of Batman clones created by Dr. Doom or the Crosstime Council of Kangs or the Banner Twins (Bruce and David) or the Legion of Substitute Robins then that's my business. I bought 'em, they're mine and I'll play with 'em how I want. If my group has a problem with my deranged strategy then they're more than welcome to pass a house rule outlawing it, but it shouldn't be an official rule.

I Am The Game

08/09/2010, 21:24

Two Scarlet Witches and two Jason Bloods offends me, but I still voted no. There are legitimate examples where two or more of the same figure are accurate. Five Mirror Masters make up a classic Flash cover, for instance.

VGA d1sc1pL3

08/09/2010, 21:37

I voted yes. But there should be exceptions for figures such as the Stepford Cuckoos, Multiple Man, Triplicate Girl, etc. And of course generics will be exempted.

I wouldn't want to see a full Highlander rule for all figures across the board, they should only be Unique if they share the same set symbol AND collector #.

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 21:39

Absolutely agree with you on everything you say about cheese, but I clearly have only talked about the use of identical figures. Not any of those other examples given by you. Besides, errata takes care of most examples of anything would throw the game out of balance or goes against the game's intent.

the fact is, this game is VERY MUCH predicated on comic book characters and events. period. Wizkids isn't making up their own characters and then making clix of those characters. Look at the hundreds of pages of postings on Nightcrawler's dial or OOTS Batman, Dr Strange, or any of a number of other characters/events when wizkids deviates from soem people's perception of the comic character! Then to have someone argue like a previous poster that any comic consideration is just idiotic is ironic at best. So having a little game play accuracy to go with comics; "reality" wouldn't bother most people. Luckily we get to choose which venues we play at.

I do think it is interesting that most every venue people talk about on here, and that I've been to, use Highlander rules. Likely a reason for that?

I'd be all about making game play - OTHER THAN BOOSTER Draw tournys- non-generic unique.

I'm bit confused then. Are dupes bad because they are cheese or because they are comic inaccurate?

I think the fact of comic accurateness has already been argued by others. I don't think either side can say that they are 100% right on that.

I addressed the "cheese" aspect. My point that why this particular bit of cheese? Seriously if this small thing is going to get "fixed" it'd beg for all the other "issues" to get fixes as well. And as I said almost everything is considered cheese by some people.

And assuming WK did change the rule do you not feel it would disastrously effect booster sales?

Tarnish

Spider-Bat

08/09/2010, 21:39

I've always wanted to field an all Spider-man team but its hard to do that with Highlander rule. I'm not wanting to be cheesy, just .... Spidery!

I agree! Though Spidey is one of the characters that has had multiple clones running around at the same time in the comics, so things like that would be excusable. Other fine examples: Multiple Man or the "Crawlers" from that crummy Future X-Men story with Sublime (I think). R Nightcrawler from FF works ok for that, so I wouldn't be able to run that scenario.

Herrbrane

08/09/2010, 21:53

Absolutely agree with you on everything you say about cheese, but I clearly have only talked about the use of identical figures. Not any of those other examples given by you. Besides, errata takes care of most examples of anything would throw the game out of balance or goes against the game's intent.

the fact is, this game is VERY MUCH predicated on comic book characters and events. period. Wizkids isn't making up their own characters and then making clix of those characters. Look at the hundreds of pages of postings on Nightcrawler's dial or OOTS Batman, Dr Strange, or any of a number of other characters/events when wizkids deviates from soem people's perception of the comic character! Then to have someone argue like a previous poster that any comic consideration is just idiotic is ironic at best. So having a little game play accuracy to go with comics; "reality" wouldn't bother most people. Luckily we get to choose which venues we play at.

I do think it is interesting that most every venue people talk about on here, and that I've been to, use Highlander rules. Likely a reason for that?

I'd be all about making game play - OTHER THAN BOOSTER Draw tournys- non-generic unique.

So wait you want to make a rule and then make acceptions to the rule other than the acceptions. If you want something to be done think out all the the consiquences and then state it. Saying other than sealed events just makes everything more confusing and then where are we? I'll tell you, Trying to play a game too complicated and too expensive so that we can't get any new player as the company making them drops the game AGAIN!!

Wombatboy

08/09/2010, 22:08

Wizkids isn't making up their own characters and then making clix of those characters.

I think that would be cool. I'm sure I'm in the minority but I would buy an original set not based on existing characters in comics.

aqhoffman

08/09/2010, 22:10

commandercool

08/09/2010, 22:16

See that's the spirit!!! Now we are getting somewhere. To heck with points and keyword restrictions.. Play what you want when you want no matter what...

I'm assuming you know what I meant.

Note: I learned earlier today that Turquoise is the color of Sarcasm

The winking smiling man is the emoticon of sarcasm. I'm assuming you know what I meant.

Gentlegamer

08/09/2010, 22:16

I'd at least like the official Scenario "There Can Be Only One" (FF Rulebook pg. 22) return to the current rulebook.

MattMinus

08/09/2010, 22:17

The whole point of the infinite earths is that each are different, and the main characters are also slightly askew. I've read plenty of DC and Marvel stuff and I've yet to run across EXACTLY identical duplicates of say Spider Man or Superman, etc.

This is just dead wrong. While it might hold for the newest DC cosmology, it certainly doesn't for Marvel. Picture just about any What If? issue, each represents an alternate earth. These usually aren't things like Sherlock Holmes Batman or Commie Superman. The characters are the same as the 616 analogs, they just occupy a universe where one event went differently.

If we were to take the Spiderman of Earth-"What if... the Avengers had become the pawns of Korvac?", he'd likely be indistinguishable from 616 Spidey. He's not in the story at all, so presumably nothing at all is different for him (until Korvac destroys everything).

Gentlegamer

08/09/2010, 22:22

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 22:34

Does anyone really think the financial argument holds water? Unless virtually everyone is lying about the venues they play /groups they play with are using highlander rules, this game should not be sellng at all. Are sales significantly different in those towns than somewhere that does not? I'm betting its a bit presumptuous to assume it even partially impacts sales.
I have always played a self imposed highlander rule, yet continue to buy boosters for the same reason everyone else does- to get the Super rare or chase, or even just C, UC figs that I haven't gotten yet! Are sales already slower because several pieces per set are already uniques than if there were no such thing?

There's a big difference in buying boosters even when your group follows a highlander rule and when 1/2 the figures you pull are useless by the very rules of the game. It seems with every set more and more people resort to CUR set buying because they don't want to pay for dupes and a "SR/Chase Lottery ticket". If all duplicate figs were basically worthless to you, why would you bother with boosters? A $10-$14 booster could almost BUY the SR you wanted instead of a 1 in 3 chance to get 1 of 12 (16) SR figs. And if dupes are useless then after about a brick buying boosters is pointless because anything but a SR is garbage and the (average) 3 boosters you'd need to buy to get a SR would buy all but the most expensive SR.

Tarnish

Tarnish

08/09/2010, 22:55

My personal take on "highlander" house rule is the same as VGA's: characters are considered unique by set and number.

Under this interpretation, if you wish to play a team of "time/dimension displaced" versions of Batman, Spider-Man, etc. at least use different HeroClix characters for them (versions with different set and/or number have different sculpts and/or dials).

This generally satisfies both "aesthetic" (different sculpts) and "balance" (different dials) considerations that usually play into desire for some form of "highlander" house rule.

So say someone wanted to Play
V T.O. Morrow and 6 R Red Tornados for the times Morrow has made Knockoffs to attack the JLA.

It sure ain't cheese and it's comic accurate. But I guess that's just to bad because you don't like the idea of dupes :ermm:

Tarnish

Herrbrane

08/09/2010, 22:57

There's a big difference in buying boosters even when your group follows a highlander rule and when 1/2 the figures you pull are useless by the very rules of the game. It seems with every set more and more people resort to CUR set buying because they don't want to pay for dupes and a "SR/Chase Lottery ticket". If all duplicate figs were basically worthless to you, why would you bother with boosters? A $10-$14 booster could almost BUY the SR you wanted instead of a 1 in 3 chance to get 1 of 12 (16) SR figs. And if dupes are useless then after about a brick buying boosters is pointless because anything but a SR is garbage and the (average) 3 boosters you'd need to buy to get a SR would buy all but the most expensive SR.

Tarnish

This was my point. I know that I wouldn't buy half as much if I knew that most of the figs that I get will be useless. Rep to you for saying what I was trying to :)

Gentlegamer

08/09/2010, 23:01

So say someone wanted to Play
V T.O. Morrow and 6 R Red Tornados for the times Morrow has made Knockoffs to attack the JLA.

It sure ain't cheese and it's comic accurate. But I guess that's just to bad because you don't like the idea of dupes :ermm:

TarnishLike everything in life, you can't please all of the people all of the time. ;)

Under my interpretation, the player is free to play T.O. Morrow and one each of R, E, V Red Tornado, as well as any other versions that are made that have a different set and number.

Thunderclese

08/09/2010, 23:13

I say 'no' because of Jackal. What if I want to run a swarm of Spider-Man clones? The 50 pointer is my best bet for abundance and affordability.

In most cases, a thousand times "YES" I hate it when people run multiples of characters when there are so many better options. Our venue has the 'highlander rule' as a standard house rule. Exceptions being generics, Multiplex, Cuckoo, and Multiple Man, of course.

Edit: and that's not to say if someone couldn't back up a reason for using two of the same, we wouldn't make an exception. But two rookie Destinys? Weak. But examples like Tarnish's Morrow/Tornado team, yeah we'd totally allow that because it's themey and fun.

Suttkus

08/09/2010, 23:14

I haven't read the thread, but I'm throwing my 2 cents in anyway.

Absolutely not. It would hamper creative ideas, like the using a bunch of Hawkmen as "Thanagaran police force" or a team of "Superman's Robots". Leave the rings for pieces that actually become broken when used in multiples.

thugit

08/09/2010, 23:48

Sharkbite

08/10/2010, 00:24

Daky

08/10/2010, 01:00

Facing 2+ HOT Caps
NuFf said. I vote yes.

happyoptimistic88

08/10/2010, 02:13

What say you?

I say no overall, only certain ones like we already have with each set. But if it is changed and much more are uniques, then I won't mind.:)

UndeadEnigma

08/10/2010, 02:48

I gotta say no. I happen to like playing multiples of certain characters. M-11, Multiple Man, Starlord, even Spider man on occasion.

I don't see much wrong with the way uniques are handled now, so leave it alone.

Harlekin

08/10/2010, 02:58

Do Triplicate Girl, Nightcrawler, Impulse, Multiple Man and Captain Britain count as generics.

aqhoffman

08/10/2010, 06:08

Have to head off away from the net for awhile, and liked the interchange, but do have to address sol before I go:
Obviously I struck a real nerve. sorry!

An argument is absurd according to you, so therefore no one should hold it, or even express it? And you cite that as "fallacious"? I'd suggest re-reading the definition.

My earlier use of the word irony is from your own premise that comic "accuracy" has no place in a game that is based on characters with uniform, powers, TAs, relative values, keywords, etc all derived from what is published and explored in comics! Of course the entire game is firmly entrenched in comic "accuracy". Perhaps a player should show up at your venue with mods and modded dials? My Purple Screaming Peacock fig is only 120 pts, has 11 clicks of colored life, mystics, indomitable, and has a trait that he can't be outwittted. Who are you to tell me that he's not ok to use? What, comic accuracy?! duplicitous you say? I agree. No one is saying you or anyone else must stay in comic accuracy as far as you picking your plans of actions, group combos, only use event dials (ugh.) etc. I liked your examples of your rare use of multiples, but I've gotta go with several others on this- why not use numerous examples of slightly different dials and figures? Besides, are we talking about folks fielding multiples because they've got some cool idea for a team or a theme when they play multiples?

Look at the tourny results and teams using multiples. If it truly was to express one's creativity and fierce adherence to playing liberty, would it always be the same figs we talk about, such as OOTS Batman, Avengers SR Scarlet Witch, etc? It is hard to argue creativity limitation by my prefence of highlander rules when the same half dozen figs are the ones being multipled every time in actual examples (not theoretical examples). A fig (or previously feats) that offers some sort of loophole to the game's intent or gimmicky advantage is what we are talking about. Every time. Should those figs have had a unique ring, in retrospect?

To insult my intelligence and creativity is only fair I guess, since I imply the same thing when one uses multiples of the exact same figure. My opinion still stands as just that -my opinion- though; There are thousands of clix figures out there, and millions of team permutations. Even using strictly tourny legal pieces the combinations are mind boggling. If a person cannot field a 300 or 400 or 800 pt team without duplicating, you tell me who is showing limited creativity. Not sure the spirit of the game is using multiples of the same value skewed or power skewed character. It is being done to win in a manner, that yes, is tourny and game legal. When strictly winning is the end goal of the use of multiples, lets not flower it up by saying they did it to express their inner creativity ;)

"Cheese" gets over used, but I'm using it in this case. And yes, it is opinion, and is moot since the game currently allows it.

Anyway, I see the topic brings out lots of strong feelings in more than just me, and I hate it when a few dominate a board, to include myself. I can't change the smugness of your own opinion, nor you mine. Sorry that you feel liberty itself is on trial here, as someone earlier posted.

Damns- got way to much stuff to do to get tied up on here!! arrghhh.

I Am The Game

08/10/2010, 06:28

I keep thinking that with proper playtesting, there wouldn't be a need for these limitations... :(

Hesster56

08/10/2010, 06:35

Nope. It's still fun to put together a team of all the same figure every once in a while.

And as far as game balance goes, the Generics are almost worse than the named figures. 3 Vet U-Men for instance, or Science Police, are far more dangerous than 3 Rookie Ghosts.

SpakSpang

08/10/2010, 06:50

I say YES. There are many multiple versions of each character, which means if you want to run many versions of the same character, you have to have different versions.

And this game is supposed to be about comic book characters fighting, and the enjoyment of living out your favorite battles and custom stories so I say yes.

JEFFREYAS

08/10/2010, 07:31

an emphatic NO!

webhead76

08/10/2010, 07:47

Seems to me that we have enough Jon's, Dick's and Joe's tellin' us how we ought to be playin' our pieces. Heck, we got us a fair amount o' rules, regulations and HCRealmers whose opinion would be a leanin' towards makin' it impossible to play multiples of certain characters, and I don't think it hardly fair or nice to be doin' that. Let 'em play what they want, how they want. Most people are fixin' to call anything certain people play 'Cheese' because they got they butt whooped upon. Can't take it, then play some other game where you don't have to worry about cheese pieces, like Chess. I said my piece. (Oh yeah, no! I don't think we should make non generics Unique, thank you very much.)

Herrbrane

08/10/2010, 08:29

To insult my intelligence and creativity is only fair I guess, since I imply the same thing when one uses multiples of the exact same figure. My opinion still stands as just that -my opinion- though; There are thousands of clix figures out there, and millions of team permutations. Even using strictly tourny legal pieces the combinations are mind boggling. If a person cannot field a 300 or 400 or 800 pt team without duplicating, you tell me who is showing limited creativity. Not sure the spirit of the game is using multiples of the same value skewed or power skewed character. It is being done to win in a manner, that yes, is tourny and game legal. When strictly winning is the end goal of the use of multiples, lets not flower it up by saying they did it to express their inner creativity ;)

First, he said your argument is idiotic not that you are an idiot. That is a huge difference because he was not insulting your intelligence. Second, he wasn't questioning your your creativity in making teams. He was saying how literally anything can happen in comics, so your imagination on possible comic sinarios is limited.

sol

08/10/2010, 08:34

I'm glad you really thought about this, but if you thought I didn't have an answer for everything here, you're gravely mistaken. I'm going to take this one point by point.

Have to head off away from the net for awhile, and liked the interchange, but do have to address sol before I go:
Obviously I struck a real nerve. sorry!

People telling my how I should play my game are my chase figures.

An argument is absurd according to you, so therefore no one should hold it, or even express it? And you cite that as "fallacious"? I'd suggest re-reading the definition.
Not stopping anyone from from expressing anything. It's in the name. But it is an absurd argument when we are talking about bring 'real-world sense' to a world where literally the impossible is possible and shows up at your base of operations every other week. In the context that duplicates can't be 'comic-accurate' as much as no duplicates can.

My earlier use of the word irony is from your own premise that comic "accuracy" has no place in a game that is based on characters with uniform, powers, TAs, relative values, keywords, etc all derived from what is published and explored in comics! Of course the entire game is firmly entrenched in comic "accuracy".
As far as depicting the characters in how they 'behave' in combat. Sure. Not who they fight, or who they fight with.
Perhaps a player should show up at your venue with mods and modded dials? My Purple Screaming Peacock fig is only 120 pts, has 11 clicks of colored life, mystics, indomitable, and has a trait that he can't be outwittted. Who are you to tell me that he's not ok to use? What, comic accuracy?! duplicitous you say? I agree.
You somewhat lost me here. That's not in the rules of the game, so obviously I'd have a harder time allowing that than allowing something that is perfectly legal.
No one is saying you or anyone else must stay in comic accuracy as far as you picking your plans of actions, group combos, only use event dials (ugh.) etc. I liked your examples of your rare use of multiples, but I've gotta go with several others on this- why not use numerous examples of slightly different dials and figures? Besides, are we talking about folks fielding multiples because they've got some cool idea for a team or a theme when they play multiples?
Because maybe I don't want to, which is the entire point. I paid for the stuff. I can use it if I want to, and the rules allow. And that's before I go to "hey this dupe team is 'comic accurate'". In many cases, if you have 'themed' tournaments, then you can rule out the idea of people played named dupes based on the premise of that event. To go to the house rule defense is just as likely to make me think you don't actually read comics as to think you do.

Look at the tourny results and teams using multiples. If it truly was to express one's creativity and fierce adherence to playing liberty, would it always be the same figs we talk about, such as OOTS Batman, Avengers SR Scarlet Witch, etc? It is hard to argue creativity limitation by my prefence of highlander rules when the same half dozen figs are the ones being multipled every time in actual examples (not theoretical examples). A fig (or previously feats) that offers some sort of loophole to the game's intent or gimmicky advantage is what we are talking about. Every time. Should those figs have had a unique ring, in retrospect?

Maybe they should have. But they don't. However, your above point DOES point out the truth of many people's dislike of duplicates: It's tied to what is duplicated...IE - if it's good, and it's duplicated, it's 'un-original'. Let me let you in on the truth. In a game where thousands of people play and have access to more or less the same figures or cards or what-have-you...nothing is truly 'original'. Anybody could come up with whatever you came up with.

Also, the game is a game of exceptions. EVERY figure offers a 'loophole' to the games 'intent' to one degree or another. You are taking the 'scrub's argument' and saying it's somehow 'bad' to exploit the rules to the fullest to win, but my argument isn't even really the inverse. I'm just saying 'keep your opinion of 'how to play' in your tackle box and not in mine'.

To insult my intelligence and creativity is only fair I guess, since I imply the same thing when one uses multiples of the exact same figure. My opinion still stands as just that -my opinion- though; There are thousands of clix figures out there, and millions of team permutations. Even using strictly tourny legal pieces the combinations are mind boggling. If a person cannot field a 300 or 400 or 800 pt team without duplicating, you tell me who is showing limited creativity. Not sure the spirit of the game is using multiples of the same value skewed or power skewed character. It is being done to win in a manner, that yes, is tourny and game legal. When strictly winning is the end goal of the use of multiples, lets not flower it up by saying they did it to express their inner creativity ;)

I don't think I was insulting you, personally. Or even being particularly insulting...so sorry if you took it that way.

It doesn't matter how many permutations there are. If I want to play the Superman from mainstream DC with the Superman from Earth-2 (before they made him for this example) and use 2 Vet Icons Superman dials to express this, besides you having to deal with something 'difficult', why must it be be a crime for that specific permutation? It's just as inclusive of your lofty idea above, but you don't like it because it represents something either you might lose to, or maybe it insults your idea of 'comic-accuracy', which is still laughable. Sure, it's going to be hard to deal with, but it's still no guarantee of anything.

"Cheese" gets over used, but I'm using it in this case. And yes, it is opinion, and is moot since the game currently allows it.

Everybody always wants to say 'well, if you do it, admit it's cheese'. No. I will not. Because it doesn't have to be. Yes. There are people out there who are doing exactly what you say. But then again, there are many out there who aren't. Even the ones who are...let's say they are the win at all cost types. In truth there is nothing wrong with even that, but the feeling of annoyance is more universally shared with those kinds of people. Back to the point. Okay, so now they can't play duplicate figures due to house rule. So they play something else within the extra confines of your oppressive add-on restriction that is still "cheese", and you have something else to look down on. :cheeky:

Anyway, I see the topic brings out lots of strong feelings in more than just me, and I hate it when a few dominate a board, to include myself. I can't change the smugness of your own opinion, nor you mine. Sorry that you feel liberty itself is on trial here, as someone earlier posted.

Yeah, I really do feel that way, in the context of playing the game the way it's 'meant' to be played. The game is just 'meant to be played', not 'meant to be played in some...way'. My opinion of that will never change, and thank you for acknowledging that as I now acknowledge your view on the same.

Now as to 'few dominating a board', surely you don't mean me. I'm nobody around here.

Damns- got way to much stuff to do to get tied up on here!! arrghhh.

See you when you get back, then.

Wombatboy

08/10/2010, 08:36

And this game is supposed to be about comic book characters fighting, and the enjoyment of living out your favorite battles and custom stories so I say yes.

What if my favorite battle or custom story NEEDS duplicates of a figure? You can't run the Avengers versus the Council of Crosstime Kangs with only one figure named Kang. If I'm copying the issue of Booster Gold where he travels back in time a few hours to help himself then I need two of the same figure, don't I? And if I make up a convoluted plot device involving time travel, clones, robots or long lost twins why shouldn't I use two or more of the same figure? The game is supposed to be about having fun, right? As long as you keep potential game-breakers unique then I see no harm in using multiples.

tom730

08/10/2010, 09:11

That would be my preference. I just personally dislike seeing multiples of Scarlet Witch or whoever. I understand it from a "game" point of view, just not my cup of tea.

tom730

08/10/2010, 09:14

What if my favorite battle or custom story NEEDS duplicates of a figure? You can't run the Avengers versus the Council of Crosstime Kangs with only one figure named Kang. If I'm copying the issue of Booster Gold where he travels back in time a few hours to help himself then I need two of the same figure, don't I? And if I make up a convoluted plot device involving time travel, clones, robots or long lost twins why shouldn't I use two or more of the same figure? The game is supposed to be about having fun, right? As long as you keep potential game-breakers unique then I see no harm in using multiples.

Kang has 3 REVs from 2 different sets, plus an LE. Do you need more than 7 Kangs? Throw in Immortus for 8!
Booster Gold? Again, we have 3 REVs from 2 sets, plus we have 2 LEs, plus a duo fig. Probably can make that storyline work with that many choices.
Just sayin'.:grin:

WakandaMan

08/10/2010, 09:23

Excellent poll question, and I'm pleased to see that the majority said yes. I actually thought that it would be the other way round as most people opt for the status quo.

If non-generics were all silver, people could still play 'clone themes' and whatnot by using versions of the same character from different sets. The only realisitic reasons to allow multiples of non-generics are:

- Power gaming
- An excuse for Wizkids to sell more product to the power-gamers.

Wombatboy

08/10/2010, 09:27

Kang has 3 REVs from 2 different sets, plus an LE. Do you need more than 7 Kangs? Throw in Immortus for 8!
Booster Gold? Again, we have 3 REVs from 2 sets, plus we have 2 LEs, plus a duo fig. Probably can make that storyline work with that many choices.
Just sayin'.:grin:

Well I got into the game late and only have Kangs from Supernova, and I don't have the LE's of either him or Booster Gold. And why would using multiple characters from different sets be less cheesy than multiples of the same figure?

sol

08/10/2010, 09:52

Well I got into the game late and only have Kangs from Supernova, and I don't have the LE's of either him or Booster Gold. And why would using multiple characters from different sets be less cheesy than multiples of the same figure?

There is no reason.

gmastermcd

08/10/2010, 10:29

Whenever someone at my venue starts playing Ms. Skrullvel too much I break out my team of 3 SI Ironfists and 3 SI Lightspeeds and teach them a lesson. I find that the easiest way to deal with her and any support she has. So because I don't like facing the same team week in and week out I shouldn't be allowed to field my team because it has duplicates?

rpweld03

08/10/2010, 10:58

I voted "no."

First off, I play thematic teams EVERY GAME, unless the format specifically forbids it. And since I'm the judge at two of my three local venues, that mostly just happens for sealed events. Heck, nine times out of ten, I can show my players an issue in which the team appears. Now, I don't always receive the theme team bonus, but being able to cite page numbers gives me a bit of an edge when someone says my teams are silly / not comic accurate / cheese.

And yet, I still use duplicates of non-generic figures a lot on my comic accurate teams: Multiplex, Maddrox (lots of them), Superman Robot, Superman Red / Blue, Red Tornado, Crimson Fox x2, Clayfaces of all sorts, Vet. Booster Gold (OR), Brainiac, Ultron, Chronos, Rocket Reds, Extant, Harbinger (you have to color in one's eyes black, though), Hourman, Monitor, Solomon Grundy, Giant Man (Ult), War Machine, Kang, Immortus, Mysterio, Scourge, and Wendigo.

And, yeah, yeah, some of those have REV sets. Between my need for many of some of those and the point value I'm shooting for, plus the fact that some of the older figures suck, just using the V of Booster Gold (OR) and the V of Booster Gold (HT) is not a viable solution. I mean, Vet Booster Gold (HT)? Really? Uh-uh. Two of Vet Booster Gold (OR) it is.

That's not even mentioning using Korg and Brood as representative of their races...

Or that I'd field a bunch of Nick Fury if I could...

For me, calling everything that isn't generic "unique" would suck for making comic accurate teams. These are comic books after all, and not very realistic.

And yes, there are many players who field cheesy teams with multiple OotS Batman, or HA Cap, or whatever. You know what? That's not my problem. I build my team, I play my team, and if I lose because they're playing cheese, that's not my fault. I don't get stressed about that. If that's what they feel they need to do to beat me, I take it as a compliment.

Second, I would definitely buy fewer boosters if at least 54 out of 60 figures were unique. In fact, I probably wouldn't buy any. Assuming, of course, that sealed events would go the way of the dodo if all non-generic figures were unique and it became MUCH harder to build a team. If I were only ever going to need one of a figure, I'd buy singles. As it is, I buy fewer boosters of a set under the Modern Age system than I did in the Golden Age REV system. Guaranteeing I can only field one of each figure at a time would guarantee that I only want one of each figure. When everything is unique, why have boosters at all?

Finally, I get that a lot of people like the "highlander" rule, and that is good for you. I often unintentionally play by it by default with my comic-accurate teams. But please keep in mind that you are not the god-kings of the universe and don't get to tell people how to play this game that they have bought and paid for. There has been a lot of hyperbole on this thread, some name-calling (possibly unintentionally), and some foot stomping. Let's keep it in perspective.

The rules outline what can and can't be done. As long as someone stays within the rules, the worst you can do about their Three-Nightshade-and-Six-Spider-man team is find it tacky. They have the right to play what they want, as long as it is legal. Tacky, but legal. And yes, I have played against that team. I beat it, too. But I digress...

"Highlander" is not an official heroclix rule, and I highly doubt it will ever become one. If all your players at home want to play highlander, good for them. If all the regular players at your venue decide they like highlander, add it to your posted house rules. Just please make sure it is clearly noted on all your toutney announcements so that new players don't show up with their teams and get turned away and ticked off (seen that done, too). But just because you like it doesn't mean the rest of us are going to play by it.

jackstar7

08/10/2010, 11:08

It was mentioned earlier: Cuckoo. Multiple Man.

The answer is No.

Thrumble Funk

08/10/2010, 11:12

- Power gaming
- An excuse for Wizkids to sell more product to the power-gamers.

So would my miner-themed team of Cave Carsons fall into the "power-gamer" category...? :ermm:

darius_dax1

08/10/2010, 11:18

I say yes, when I play this game, I do it for the shear enjoyment of using my favorite characters and playing them in battles they've never been in. I do not enjoy trying to visualize why on earth there are multiple batmen staring at me from across the board, or scarlet witch/jason bloods for that matter.

Perhaps you'd want to play something that looked like this (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/superman-man-of-steel/37-1.jpg) or this (http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/flash-secret-files-and-origins.jpg) or maybe even this (http://xmendiaries.ibelgique.com/pictures/covers/exiles86.jpg).

Perhaps I just don't want the person sitting across from me dictating what team I need to bring to the table to 'have fun'.

Thunderclese

08/10/2010, 11:21

So would my miner-themed team of Cave Carsons fall into the "power-gamer" category...? :ermm:

No, it falls in the category "awesome" is what!

darius_dax1

08/10/2010, 11:21

Only in Marvel. For DC figures I support a cap of 52 copies of any non generic figure.

:laugh:

Tarnish

That means I can't field my 300 point Lian Harper only team!:mad:

Thrumble Funk

08/10/2010, 11:22

No, it falls in the category "awesome" is what!

That's what I said!

Granted, they won't do too well, as the team's only offensive piece is SI Mole Man, but hey! Fun theme!

Surfer13

08/10/2010, 11:46

It is bad for the game.

Wizkids has to sell boosters. If the bulk of the product available in those boosters is unique, then sales drop, and they don't drop by a little.

People have all sorts of highlander rules that they have set up on their own. Wizkids has no need to slit it's own wrists in order to set it up for everyone.

malger

08/10/2010, 11:53

That means I can't field my 300 point Lian Harper only team!:mad:I don't think that this would be legal on ANY approved map since your opponent wouldn't be able to have an equal sized starting area but, I would be happy to face that team with my Extant by himself and I would even to begin half way down the dial.:p

JRS4

08/10/2010, 12:12

The winking smiling man is the emoticon of sarcasm. I'm assuming you know what I meant.

What!!! I can't believe you were joking!!! ;)

Suttkus

08/10/2010, 14:29

I say YES. There are many multiple versions of each character, which means if you want to run many versions of the same character, you have to have different versions.

Really? There are multiple versions of each character? Did I miss a few sets?

Besides, are we making a "no duplicates" rule for "comic accuracy" that somehow means it's perfectly okay for me to play a two different trios of REVs and the one of character X from modern?

Gentlegamer

08/10/2010, 14:37

By the way, I voted no. I wouldn't want all non-generics to have a silver ring designating "unique" status in HeroClix. The farthest I would go is keeping "There Can Be Only One" as an official optional scenario and perhaps making it the "default" scenario for competitive tournaments.

Timeshadow

08/10/2010, 14:39

No, they shouldn't be Unique. More options are always better; Unique needs to be reserved for the figures that functionally require they not be allowed multiples (Nico Minoru, for example, whom you would have to keep track of which one claimed which power).

While I always play Highlander myself, having two of the same figure on a team is no more comic-inaccurate than having the same figure on both your team and your opponants. I suggest a more subtle change that leaves options open. Playing multiples of a non-generic figure is considered as breaking theme bonus. I'm fine with my opponant bringing 4 OotS Batmans, I just don't believe he should be rewarded for it.

I agree with this that playing multples of a non generic should break theme.
This allows for the most creativity and dosen't reword ppl for just slapping 6 goonie dup figures together.

Ps: Generics should be identifyed by a special band or marking allowing them to be easily recognised and characters that do have multples of themselves(ie: multple man ect..) should be marked as generics. Maby evin have a non generic "origonal/leader" and a seperiate common generic/clone fig

charlesx

08/10/2010, 14:43

Nope. Can't stand common uniques. Avengers Ultimate Iron Man illustrates the point. What do you do with common non-generic uniques that you can't give away after you pull duplicates by the handful? The only thing that comes to mind is "throw them into your home's plastic recycling bin." Thassall.

rancidtwinkie

08/10/2010, 14:44

Besides, are we making a "no duplicates" rule for "comic accuracy" that somehow means it's perfectly okay for me to play a two different trios of REVs and the one of character X from modern?

It is exactly that kind of 'logic' that often astounds me in regards to the whole debate.

Thrumble Funk

08/10/2010, 14:54

Wow! Can't believe how the votes are skewing on this one!

sylnzz

08/10/2010, 15:09

We always use the highlander rules, even to the extent where you can't play Dick Grayson Robin and Nightwing.

But I disagree with all non-generics being uniques. This issue can be solved with calling highlander rule or not.

Thrumble Funk

08/10/2010, 15:12

But I disagree with all non-generics being uniques. This issue can be solved with calling highlander rule or not.

Yep. Case by case basis, solved on the venue level is fine.

People want to play in the big tourneys? Adapt and do so or don't play in them.

Grumpygoat

08/10/2010, 15:51

For the most part, yes, though some exceptions apply. Multiple Flashes, for instance. Or Mirror Master. "Unique" should be the rule, not the exception. The way uniques in the game work - where same-name characters from different sets can both be used even if they're unique - already adequately gets around problems like alternate universe versions of characters, for the most part, while simultaneously preventing people from playing multiples of power pieces. If everything were unique, someone could run a team of Batmen, with Justice League's version as Bruce and Icons version as Dick. They just couldn't cheese it out. Which is a good thing, when cheesing it out tends to mean running teams that damn well shouldn't be together, for the most part.

First Lensman

08/10/2010, 15:58

Yes, but there should be exceptions:

1) Kang - Can get together with a bunch of himself from different time periods and universes.

2) Multiple Man/Jamie Madrox - They don't call him Multiple Man for nothing!

3) Duo Damsel/Triplicate Girl - Should be limited to number of figures suggested my the name printed on the dial

4) Mysterio - Can make copies of himself too!

5) Dr. Manhatten - But only the 105 pt. version when he can split his power amongst many different "menial" tasks.

6) Wendigo - based on people eating the flesh of humans - yes, there could be multiple

7) Scourge - Multiples seen in comics - one Scourge even took out another Scourge.

Characters who have not been made into Clix yet (BUT SHOULD!):

1) Schizoid Man

2) Dupli-Kate & Multi-Paul (Invincible)

Figures that should be errata'd to be generics:

1) Bat Sentry

2) Super-Skrull: X-Men, Avengers & Illuminati

Questionable:

1) Lobo

2) Maxima

This only means that you cannot have duplicates representing the same character -- For instance, you can have Green Lanterns on your team representing Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, John Stewart & Kyle Raynor as they are different characters. You should NOT be able to field 4 of the SAME HeroClix and call then Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, John Stewart & Kyle Raynor!

darius_dax1

08/10/2010, 16:20

Tarnish

08/10/2010, 18:03

The main problem here is that the "exceptions" list will not be agreed on either. Not to mention that it would become absurdly long.

Tarnish

Yes, but there should be exceptions:

1) Kang - Can get together with a bunch of himself from different time periods and universes.

2) Multiple Man/Jamie Madrox - They don't call him Multiple Man for nothing!

3) Duo Damsel/Triplicate Girl - Should be limited to number of figures suggested my the name printed on the dial

4) Mysterio - Can make copies of himself too!

5) Dr. Manhatten - But only the 105 pt. version when he can split his power amongst many different "menial" tasks.

6) Wendigo - based on people eating the flesh of humans - yes, there could be multiple

7) Scourge - Multiples seen in comics - one Scourge even took out another Scourge.

Characters who have not been made into Clix yet (BUT SHOULD!):

1) Schizoid Man

2) Dupli-Kate & Multi-Paul (Invincible)

Figures that should be errata'd to be generics:

1) Bat Sentry

2) Super-Skrull: X-Men, Avengers & Illuminati

Questionable:

1) Lobo

2) Maxima

This only means that you cannot have duplicates representing the same character -- For instance, you can have Green Lanterns on your team representing Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, John Stewart & Kyle Raynor as they are different characters. You should NOT be able to field 4 of the SAME HeroClix and call then Guy Gardner, Hal Jordan, John Stewart & Kyle Raynor!

Suttkus

08/10/2010, 21:42

The main problem here is that the "exceptions" list will not be agreed on either. Not to mention that it would become absurdly long.

Well, just depend on the omniscient, inerrant local judges, who, obviously, will know if you're lying about the multi-dimensional team up of Megaguys that occurred in Mega Comics issue #237 that was published in 1946. Who needs an official list?

Nickel97

08/10/2010, 23:58

I said "no" for these reasons, though I nearly said "yes": there are figures that are not "generic" that should be played in multiples (madrox, multiplex, mirror master, etc.). Making all figures 'unique' would mess up the REV designations (they'd all be silver rings).

I do like the idea, though, of each sculpt being 'unique' rather than a 'highlander' rule by character, because this at least allows for 'clone saga' teams or 'multi-dimensional crossover' teams or 'back to the future' type teams.

Grumpygoat

08/11/2010, 00:14

For those who would like to limit the playability of my multiples of pieces:

You may have your rule (highlander/all unique) as long as you purchase all my duplicate uniques at top-value. It would be the fair thing to do.

I will do this right after you buy all of the Magic cards I have more than four copies of, as well as all the extras I have in all other collectible games I've ever played.

Also after you quit playing Heroclix, seeing as how you don't seem to have much interest in playing a game based on comic books and feel it necessary to make those who are interested in a comic book game accede to your whims rather than the other way around.

There are plenty of good games out there. The comic book game should cater to the comic book fans. It doesn't, not as much as it should, but that's a bug, not a boon.

The main problem here is that the "exceptions" list will not be agreed on either. Not to mention that it would become absurdly long.

Tarnish

The boat on uniques as the rule, not exception, has long since sailed. Were it still an option to institute, though, it wouldn't require a list - most of the pieces would have the unique ring to start (or more likely, the generics/multiple pieces would be indicated as such, while uniques wouldn't needn't an indicator on the dial).

Gentlegamer

08/11/2010, 08:43

Thrumble Funk

08/11/2010, 08:52

Also after you quit playing Heroclix, seeing as how you don't seem to have much interest in playing a game based on comic books and feel it necessary to make those who are interested in a comic book game accede to your whims rather than the other way around.

But...wouldn't allowing you to dictate whether or not I can use my multiple Cave Carson miner-themed team be "acceding to your whims"?

I think people need to be more honest and say "I don't want to see multiples of efficient/tournament-worthy pieces."

Tarnish

08/11/2010, 14:28

I will do this right after you buy all of the Magic cards I have more than four copies of, as well as all the extras I have in all other collectible games I've ever played.

Also after you quit playing Heroclix, seeing as how you don't seem to have much interest in playing a game based on comic books and feel it necessary to make those who are interested in a comic book game accede to your whims rather than the other way around.

There are plenty of good games out there. The comic book game should cater to the comic book fans. It doesn't, not as much as it should, but that's a bug, not a boon.

How is playing by the rules making people "accede to his whims"?

I think you need to look in a mirror there. It seems YOU are the one who has a no interest in playing this game without forcing others to do it YOUR way. I've yet to hear an anti Highlander person tell anyone they should be forced to use dupes on their team.

Tarnish

Tarnish

08/11/2010, 14:42

Suttkus

08/11/2010, 16:02

I declare Tarnish wins the thread.

malger

08/11/2010, 17:38

I declare Tarnish wins the thread.That's cheesy! Wait...Does this prove that cheese exists?

Then again, what is all that stuff in the refrigerator aisle in the supermarket?

If there is no cheese, does cheddar exist?

Toughest 1 there is

08/11/2010, 18:01

No not at all. It takes some fun out of the game... Like, one guy at my venue played 7 Luke Cages one time, and I have 27 Crossbones that I use occasionally. But, I get really pissed if I see more than one Scarlet Witch or a minor support piece like that.

WakandaMan

08/12/2010, 01:38

Ok I have one major problem with this thread/argument in general:

Do the People that want a Highlander rule want it because of "Comic accuracy" or because it prevents Cheese? Because we keep getting it both ways. If somebody addresses the Cheese argument they get a "comic accuracy" rebuttal. Then when comic accuracy is addressed they get a "It's Cheese" rebuttal.

Actually both. Some people may want it for one reason or the other, and some people want it for both reasons. For me, it's both.

Comic accuracy- The list of times a figure has dupes via clones/ robots/dimensional variants/ect is so long as to make the comic accurate idea moot. It's no more Comic accurate to have a team of Joker, Lockjaw, Witchblade and Magneto than it is to have a team of multiple OoTS Batmen. Honestly I say if you were playing it as the International League of Batmen knockoffs from the last few years Batman books, it's more comic accurate.

The point is not moot. Sometimes there are multiples of the same character, but it is very rare.

Likewise it's no more comic accurate to Play V Legacy Batman, U Vampire Batman, E Hypertime Batman and KC Batman than it is to play Multiple OoTS Batmen.

No, this just allows for those rare instances you cite. Characters who do appear in multiples regularly (eg. Kang) could just be designated as generics.

If it's because you don't like seeing the same sculpts repeated.... Tough! You don't get to pick my team because the sculpts "offend" you on a comic geek level.

Never mind the majority disagrees with you (albeit by a slim margin- which is impressive considering that it is against the status quo), or the fact that the same kinda logic can be turned around onto you.

The opinions of the majority of clixers have made it into the rulebooks plenty of times. Flyers broken? Here's NAAT and FCCF. Giants rubbish? Here's the ability to carry and not be based from 2 squares away. TK not like the comics? Here's a major overhaul.

What about the fact that multiples of the same sculpt can create confusion for gameplay? Did I perplex this OOTS Batman, or that one? Did you Outwit this one or that one? Or which one were you attacking again?

If it's the Cheese that bothers you.... Why are you wasting time on this "small cheese" Can you even get 60+% of people to agree that "Cheese" exists? Then can you get them to agree on what that cheese is? Weather or not you want to admit it, or use terms like "I know it when I see it!" Cheese is a matter of opinion. I don't want any groups opinion to be put in the rulebook.

Seems like an interesting poll topic. :)

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 01:50

I will do this right after you buy all of the Magic cards I have more than four copies of, as well as all the extras I have in all other collectible games I've ever played.

No. I am not interested in telling you how you can or cannot use those pieces so I have no responsibility to compensate you for your 'loss'.

Also after you quit playing Heroclix, seeing as how you don't seem to have much interest in playing a game based on comic books and feel it necessary to make those who are interested in a comic book game accede to your whims rather than the other way around.

I love how you make assumptions about what I believe or do not believe and then project them onto me in an attempt to paint me the villain. Nice try.

Also, it's not my 'whim'. It's the rules.

There are plenty of good games out there. The comic book game should cater to the comic book fans. It doesn't, not as much as it should, but that's a bug, not a boon.

It is a miniature skirmish game with a comic book theme. But it is first, a game. If you want comic accurate battles I suggest you stick to the comics.

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 01:52

Actually both. Some people may want it for one reason or the other, and some people want it for both reasons. For me, it's both.

The point is not moot. Sometimes there are multiples of the same character, but it is very rare.

No, this just allows for those rare instances you cite. Characters who do appear in multiples regularly (eg. Kang) could just be designated as generics.

Never mind the majority disagrees with you (albeit by a slim margin- which is impressive considering that it is against the status quo), or the fact that the same kinda logic can be turned around onto you.

The opinions of the majority of clixers have made it into the rulebooks plenty of times. Flyers broken? Here's NAAT and FCCF. Giants rubbish? Here's the ability to carry and not be based from 2 squares away. TK not like the comics? Here's a major overhaul.

What about the fact that multiples of the same sculpt can create confusion for gameplay? Did I perplex this OOTS Batman, or that one? Did you Outwit this one or that one? Or which one were you attacking again?

Seems like an interesting poll topic. :)

What's really stopping you from playing that way?

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 01:54

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 01:56

I have a question for all you highlander supporters out there: What was the last team you played at a tournament?

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 02:08

*Dax's list of ways playing duplicates is comic accurate incoming*

I think I covered that in my first post. But I do have another example that just came to mind:

Lo3W (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/SPlHNYeNwjI/AAAAAAAAIZw/pL6neXJY4EY/s320-R/Final+Crisis+Legion+of+Three+Worlds+2-7.jpg)

malakim2099

08/12/2010, 02:13

I think I covered that in my first post. But I do have another example that just came to mind:

Lo3W (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5VgL6ZXwkaw/SPlHNYeNwjI/AAAAAAAAIZw/pL6neXJY4EY/s320-R/Final+Crisis+Legion+of+Three+Worlds+2-7.jpg)

Indeed. Tarnish was correct and summed it up rather nicely.

I say thee NAY.

WakandaMan

08/12/2010, 02:26

It's not about 'cheese' or 'comic accuracy'; it's about control and fitting into their myopic view of how this game should be played.

Wow, I love the way you just belittle the other side of the debate there. Way to keep things civil.

Because you status quo guys don't also have a myopic view of how this game should be played. :cheeky: :confused:

malakim2099

08/12/2010, 02:28

Wow, I love the way you just belittle the other side of the debate there. Way to keep things civil.

Because you status quo guys don't also have a myopic view of how this game should be played. :cheeky: :confused:

Still, between robot duplicates, the League of Batmen, Legion of 3 Worlds, various multiversal crossovers not to mention cross-TIME crossovers...

Having 2 (or more) of a figure on a team is less "realistic" than Joker hooking up with Lockjaw and terrorizing folks? :cheeky:

commandercool

08/12/2010, 02:31

I have a question for all you highlander supporters out there: What was the last team you played at a tournament?

This is the last team I built for my Highlander venue. I was unable to attend so I didn't get to use it, but I built it with that intent:

Brave and Bold Rare Metallo 182 + Maneuver 8
Brave and Bold Rare Brainiac 159
Mutations and Monsters Rare Danger 124
Collateral Damage Veteran Red Tornado 67
Arkham Asylum Rare Thinker 55
Brave and Bold Special Object Green Lantern 5

WakandaMan

08/12/2010, 02:40

I have a question for all you highlander supporters out there: What was the last team you played at a tournament?

Trying to remember, since I rarely actually get to play being the judge.

We had a fun night where you had to try and bring 'colour theme's recently. I brought a team I liked to call the "Orion Slave Girls"-

She-Hulk, Gamora, Mantis and Jade (Might have been one other).

So now you're going to tell me that it's never happened in the comics right? Maybe not (although I know a comic that comes close...just need to swap Jade for Moondragon) but I tell you what this team is....

It's fun. Can you deny it? If you didn't smile a little when you saw that team list then you're taking things way too seriously.

Then there's this team:

HoT Cap #1 72pts
HoT Cap #2* 72pts
*w/Alias 3 pts
OOTS Batman #1 75pts
OOTS Batman #2* 75pts
*w/Alias 3 pts
Total: 300pts

Now..some people will look at that team and think it looks fun (those who love being competitive), but I guarantee you most people will look at it and think it's not fun at all. What's more...it's really confusing. How do you remember who has Alias on them? Put a token on them and hope it doesn't get confused for an action token? Put the Feat card under them (in which case you could get confused about what square they are on). It's ridiculous.

But I'm pretty much done with this argument anyway. I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by the other side's points, so why bother continuing it, since everyone has made up their minds? All that can lead to is sore feelings.

This will be my last post in the thread. Apologies if I riled anyone.

Gentlegamer

08/12/2010, 02:42

It is a miniature skirmish game with a comic book theme. But it is first, a game. If you want comic accurate battles I suggest you stick to the comics.
This should be a marketing blurb on the side of every booster. :cheeky:

darius_dax1

08/12/2010, 08:13

Wow, I love the way you just belittle the other side of the debate there. Way to keep things civil.

Because you status quo guys don't also have a myopic view of how this game should be played. :cheeky: :confused:

What? No mention of how belittling and insulting this statement is?:

Also after you quit playing Heroclix, seeing as how you don't seem to have much interest in playing a game based on comic books and feel it necessary to make those who are interested in a comic book game accede to your whims rather than the other way around.

sol

08/12/2010, 09:08

Because you status quo guys don't also have a myopic view of how this game should be played. :cheeky: :confused:

It's not 'status quo'. Your trying to label people to prop up a weak argument. And i just love how it's 'myopic' to play by the rules of the game.

I've been saying all along I can claim 'comic-accuracy' with duplicate figures just as realistically as you can say it's 'not comic accuracy'.

sol

08/12/2010, 09:10

Now..some people will look at that team and think it looks fun (those who love being competitive), but I guarantee you most people will look at it and think it's not fun at all. What's more...it's really confusing. How do you remember who has Alias on them? Put a token on them and hope it doesn't get confused for an action token? Put the Feat card under them (in which case you could

Well, sorry you won't be back, but guess what?

It doesn't matter if you think this guy's team was 'fun' or not. It's a completely legal team.

Thrumble Funk

08/12/2010, 09:23

It's not 'status quo'. Your trying to label people to prop up a weak argument.

That's the American way! :laugh:

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 09:46

Back finally! btw- thanks sol, for the well thought out rebuttal last time- much more respect for that, even if I disagree on a few things.

One theme keeps coming up among people on both sides of this argument (and I gotta say its cool to see so many votes on a poll that was only on home page for a day!): "I don't play duplicates unless its "accurate" or weirdly fun, etc, but other people do, and I'll defend their right." "I don't want any more rules added to this game/your opinion added to this game", etc. This even from people who argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply to the game. One cannot argue comic accuracy applies when convenient for them, and then argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply.

Every single example- with the exceptions of say Cuckoo or Multiplex, or others that inherently have that ability as part of their power and it's written on their card, or could be errata'd if it wasn't in the case of REV- given here of multiples in a comic is actually a great example of how every single occurrence of said argument supports that each character is slightly different!

Legion of 3 World? umm, 3 completely different takes on the legion, and look how differently each Brainiac or Timber Wolf or Saturn Girl looked and acted! No one was identical, not same age, look, powers& use, etc.

The awesome Goodwin/ Simonson Manhunter run back in the '70's? closest one I can think of, but no one brought that up. Go read it if you can find access to it. Even if ya hate me, you'll like the run.

Red Tornadoes - Which story? Miniseries? JLA relaunch? The Meltzer JLA line about Ivo, etc- go back and read it and look at it. None of them were exactly like reddy. And if you have a desire to replay that storyline, how do you make all those yellow and green and blue tornadoe dudes who each had a different power set based on lightning, or sun, or whatever by using 6 Red Tornadoes?! Or perhaps the recent miniseries where each of the main robot dudes and dudettes were painted red, but had completely different abilities?
We could go on for days trying to out geek each other with posts on comic storyline recall, minutae like that above, etc and still not change anyone's thinking. Could, in theory, some writer make EXACTLY the same character, but just make 10 of them? They do exactly the same thing, look exactly the same way, and have no variation or actions, ability whatsoever? Good luck with that title, but sure, I suppose one could. It hasn't happened yet. Besides, the whole comic accuracy argument is beneath a few of you on here, and isn't even relevant to the discussion, right?

As much as I personally enjoy the highlander rule, perhaps the real issue comes down to what someone said pages ago - is it that crazy to use a rule like that for high level tourny play? If virtually everyone on either side of the argument goes with it anyway (yeah, yeah, I know, you could if you wanted too!), I'd be all for it. Why play the big game completely different than we play our weekly games?

Look at the played pieces among virtually all of the recent high finishers in tournies. Its not sour grapes for anyone to observe that those figs are strictly played for ultimate powers/win at all cost game play. Its called objectivity. We can all do it, if we so chose. Thank god we don't, because this game would die if everyone used the same 2 dozen figs and multiples within that sample, for the sole purpose of winning.

For those that absolutely cringe when anyone- in any perceived way- impedes on your freedom, I am sorry about the way the world works. However, the flight changes, the HSS changes, the adding of Power Girl's trait, the giant's rules, the changing of many things in this game, have been adopted after input from game play and from players just like you or I. Despite that, I don't get all irate that those folks were obstinate idiots who just don't measure up to my wonderfulness and somehow made me adapt my game. It's amazing that I don't think those people are azzes who are tyrannical fascists imposing on how I play the game. And there are already uniques in every set. Sometime quite a few. If your argument is truthful, those should be bothering you every bit as much! I think the real issue comes down along the lines of "who are any of you to tell me anything about how I do anything!" And truthfully, usually people just avoid dealing with that kind of drama.

I will still enjoy clix whether the rules stay static or keep on changing over the next decade (I hope it stays that long!). And I certainly will still play if the higher level tournament play adopts highlander rules. I'd love to see it.
Or, we can all express our own freedom and creativity and play the same 2 dozen pieces that are super powerful or efficient for their points for tournaments only, while playing what we like to play every other week ;) That's my biggest bug. I field many fun, creative, competitive teams, like everyone else on this board I am sure. Okay, so maybe my Teen Titans get beat every time, but others do well. However, if I go to a big tourny, its almost a whole different game, and that game has nothing to do with what we've all been talking about.

doctor_x

08/12/2010, 09:52

IMO-only figures that can or will be abused should be made unique and it's obvious that NecaKids does not have a clue as to what figs really to make unique.

Some times they get it right but alot of times they don't.

ie:
SI Doctor Strange
HoT common Thor
Crisis Kid Flash
SR Scarlet Witch
BaTB Jason Blood

All should have been uniques.

Thrumble Funk

08/12/2010, 09:54

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 10:00

Good points on the uniques. Honestly, I'm as befuddled as everyone else on why some uniques were designated as such vs. others not. Someone very early suggsted more game play prior to going out, and maybe that is the key. I have no idea if it is practical or not, but would almost certainly have kept this argument non existent, or at least less intense!

sol

08/12/2010, 10:06

So much to refute, so little time...;)

Back finally! btw- thanks sol, for the well thought out rebuttal last time- much more respect for that, even if I disagree on a few things.

It's okay. I don't do anything on these boards for 'respect'. I was told to "eat a bag of Grayson's" the other day. :tired:

One theme keeps coming up among people on both sides of this argument (and I gotta say its cool to see so many votes on a poll that was only on home page for a day!): "I don't play duplicates unless its "accurate" or weirdly fun, etc, but other people do, and I'll defend their right." "I don't want any more rules added to this game/your opinion added to this game", etc. This even from people who argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply to the game. One cannot argue comic accuracy applies when convenient for them, and then argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply.

Well, actually you can on the legitimate side of the argument. On one hand you could really just leave it at 'it's in the rules' or 'i bought, i'm playin' em' and it would be perfectly valid. On the other hand you can bring up examples of where it's acceptable to use them from a precisely 'comic-accurate' view of it ....which happens to be MY preferred argument. It's the 'pro-no-dupes' crowd that is switching the argument to fit the situation. The pro-dupes crowd already has the backing of the rules. :cheeky:
Every single example- with the exceptions of say Cuckoo or Multiplex, or others that inherently have that ability as part of their power and it's written on their card, or could be errata'd if it wasn't in the case of REV- given here of multiples in a comic is actually a great example of how every single occurrence of said argument supports that each character is slightly different!
Except that these differences are so minute as to be indistinguishable between versions. Once again, it's a comic-book based strategy game. Not a comic book.
Legion of 3 World? umm, 3 completely different takes on the legion, and look how differently each Brainiac or Timber Wolf or Saturn Girl looked and acted! No one was identical, not same age, look, powers& use, etc.
Going by your logic you can't even play a full team of Legion of Superheroes from ANY unverse with 'comic-accuracy' because they are all based on a different version throughout their torturously rebooted history. ANY. To say nothing of 'Legion of Three Worlds'.

As much as I personally enjoy the highlander rule, perhaps the real issue comes down to what someone said pages ago - is it that crazy to use a rule like that for high level tourny play? If virtually everyone on either side of the argument goes with it anyway (yeah, yeah, I know, you could if you wanted too!), I'd be all for it. Why play the big game completely different than we play our weekly games?
Why play it differently indeed? The reason is (and no i'm not supporting your argument by saying this) that min/maxing to the utmost is possible with a select few non-unique figures. It's just the way it is. It's the way it's always been.

Look at the played pieces among virtually all of the recent high finishers in tournies. Its not sour grapes for anyone to observe that those figs are strictly played for ultimate powers/win at all cost game play. Its called objectivity. We can all do it, if we so chose. Thank god we don't, because this game would die if everyone used the same 2 dozen figs and multiples within that sample, for the sole purpose of winning.

But now, wouldn't it be arguable that any of those figures on a team without duplicates are still labeled cheese just for being present on a team? I get a look from people if I ever have OotS Batman on my team. I get a look for any team I build, regardless of whether an upper-echelon figure is on it or not but that's beside the point.

For those that absolutely cringe when anyone- in any perceived way- impedes on your freedom, I am sorry about the way the world works. However, the flight changes, the HSS changes, the adding of Power Girl's trait, the giant's rules, the changing of many things in this game, have been adopted after input from game play and from players just like you or I. Despite that, I don't get all irate that those folks were obstinate idiots who just don't measure up to my wonderfulness and somehow made me adapt my game. It's amazing that I don't think those people are azzes who are tyrannical fascists imposing on how I play the game. And there are already uniques in every set. Sometime quite a few. If your argument is truthful, those should be bothering you every bit as much! I think the real issue comes down along the lines of "who are any of you to tell me anything about how I do anything!" And truthfully, usually people just avoid dealing with that kind of drama.
I find this part to be slightly ludicrous, but I will say this. If WIZKIDS changed the rule to support that absurd no-dupe notion, i'd follow it. However, we both know they wont. And it was me who got Power Girl changed. ;)

I will still enjoy clix whether the rules stay static or keep on changing over the next decade (I hope it stays that long!). And I certainly will still play if the higher level tournament play adopts highlander rules. I'd love to see it.

I would hate it. But to each his own.
Or, we can all express our own freedom and creativity and play the same 2 dozen pieces that are super powerful or efficient for their points for tournaments only, while playing what we like to play every other week ;) That's my biggest bug. I field many fun, creative, competitive teams, like everyone else on this board I am sure. Okay, so maybe my Teen Titans get beat every time, but others do well. However, if I go to a big tourny, its almost a whole different game, and that game has nothing to do with what we've all been talking about.

For the most part I never play the same team twice in a tournament. I've done it maybe 6 or 7 times in 7 or 8 years. And if I did, it wasn't because it was 'dominant' it was because it was fun to play.

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 10:16

sol

08/12/2010, 10:18

Sol, now that you reminded me of the cheese issue, I will call you out for one of your previous "points"- that of even if the rule was changed, me, or anyone arguing on that side, would have some other cheese that we would look down on, etc. Umm, nope, and a bit prejudicial are we? Your argument has no basis in anyting presented on this board, nor in anything else posted by me, or conversations, etc.

Then you haven't been reading. I don't care what 'cheese' is or not, but it's certainly come up in this thread. I'm not being a hypocrite.

If somebody played EVEN ONE -

OotS Batman (or back in the day E Batman)
HoT Cap
Icons Superman
Ultimate Thor
KC Flash
CT Nightcrawler
Jean Grey
Paramedic
Hooker
Firelord

You would get less of a cheery response from people who casually looked at your team. Can you not agree with that? I'm saying that the figures being argued against in duplicate are figures that would be argued against in singular. I'm still on topic.

I find it quite telling that you somehow know I would still find cheese on any team no matter what. Umm, no. not even sure what you would draw this conclusion from. Fallacious argument indeed, to use your own term. Do you find that anyone arguing against you suffers from this deficit? ;)

Maybe you wouldn't personally, but somebody would. I think i'm tired of this conversation now, because you're really not paying attention. Now I'm pushing a fallacious argument? Really??

I'm not trying to change the way you play, I'm just telling you it's ridiculous for you to try and change the way I play to suit your play style. I've already stated numerous times that 9 times out of 10 i don't even play duplicate figures.

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 10:33

Sol- Your words, your post:
Back to the point. Okay, so now they can't play duplicate figures due to house rule. So they play something else within the extra confines of your oppressive add-on restriction that is still "cheese", and you have something else to look down on.

This is your quote I refer to. I've never seen even one post on here, other boards, nor ever heard a person at a game complain of a player using one of those peices you quote. The issue comes up with using more than one. Of course those figs are powerful, but they are legal. Unfortunately, so is using 4 of them. You're trying to support your argument based on conclusions you've pre judged before any means of determination have been discussed. period. Sorry you were not paying attention to that part.

sol

08/12/2010, 10:36

Sol- Your words, your post:
Back to the point. Okay, so now they can't play duplicate figures due to house rule. So they play something else within the extra confines of your oppressive add-on restriction that is still "cheese", and you have something else to look down on.

This is your quote I refer to. I've never seen even one post on here, other boards, nor ever heard a person at a game complain of a player using one of those peices you quote. You're trying to support your argument based on conclusions you've pre judged before any means of determination have been discussed. period. Sorry you were not paying attention to that part.

Then you don't get out much?

Even if we non-factor specific figures, you're telling me you've never seen a team that follows the no-dupe parameter to the letter yet manages to be 'cheese'?

Are we even playing the same game? THAT's the quote you're throwing back in my face?

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 10:51

sol

08/12/2010, 10:55

Me thinks you missed the point. Sure people grumble going up against an unexpected beast. Not the same as seeing 4 of them on the table ;)

The issue was your assumption that even if dupes were a thing of the past, So they play something else within the extra confines of your oppressive add-on restriction that is still "cheese", and you have something else to look down on. fallacious, yes. your word, not mine.
Sentinel of Liberty? hmmm...

And I say again. It's NOT fallacious.

I've seen it happen, many times, just playing heroclix - where no one is using duplicate figures. How is it not the same? Also, you threw my quote up out of context. If you don't like what somebody is playing, you're probably 'looking down' on it. Is that the part you're homing in on?

And trying to use my name against me is low (and incorrectly applied), as I've already said 'i don't care how you play, just don't tell me how to play with your add-on rule'.

PISCEAN

08/12/2010, 11:07

Everyone is looking at this from playing the game point of view, how about we look at this from a pulls point of veiw. When you open packs you will get doubles. How would it feel if half the peices that you get you can't use because you already have a copy. That is the main reason that Wizkids doesn't do this because most people would fewer packs because the more they open the more figures they can't use.

My venue and play group has ALWAYS used Highlander rules minimizing the need for duplicates which we find to be a huge boon. Quite the opposite of what your saying. The duplicates give us a great deal of trade strength, both among ourselves and online. In addition the dupes can be traded in or sold to various online stores. For example, I traded in a ton of dupes from sets going as far back as Infinity Challenge to get several chase figures such as E2 Supes, Kal El. Thor Frog of Thunder and many more.
I find that not needing duplicates has very little impact on the buying habits of myself and all the clix players I know.
In addition if duplicates are so desirable why is it that each set's distribution is judged as favorable when you pull the least duplicates. Wizkids has always been trying to achieve a distribution that minimizes duplicates and places more variety in the consumer's hands with less purchases.
I find needing very few dupes opens up options not limitations, and its because of this I have been able to expand my collection to include a nice variety of chase figures.

thanoson

08/12/2010, 11:36

Look, everybody moaning about sealed, you can use doubles. That is a specific time it should be allowed. However, in regular tourney builds,n limit to uniqueness. You can fulfill all your cloning needs with other versions of said models. If you think Multiple man and the cuckoos get robbed, use common sense and say that they can have dupes. The argument for most identical players is I wanna run my clones, blah blah blah. It's not for that. You wanna use the character rules that are really good, in a higher quality. Oots Batman and HoT Cap are really good by themselves. You guys want to break the game by having an army of them. I know, nobody should tell you how to have your fun and you can do what you want with your figs. However, the people on the other view don't think it's fun to face that. And that's a little above half. Is your fun that much more important than everyone else's fun? Shouldn't you both be having fun together? Is your choice of not taking dupes gonna stop you from having fun? And wouldn't it be more challenging to YOU if it wasn't the point and click method you're used to?

Some history about me, since I'm on my soapbox. Been a Warhammer 40k player since '86. Certain armies in that game get reputations for being broken or cheesy due to the combos of troop types and weapons you can get. Just like in clix, certain armies/builds always do good in the tournaments. They are almost always the same cookiecutter list. I have always tried to rise up to the challenge and never play the way that my army gets the bad reputation. I make balanced list that don't exploit loopholes or poorly worded rules. I try to encourage new players and my fellow players to do the same. It's more rewarding to me when I do face a cookiecutter list and defeat it using good strategy and tactics than by just pointing and rolling a bunch of dice. One trick ponies is not good for your learning of strategies. I think the same way about clix and try to encourage others when I can. Ok, climbing off of soapbox.

And please, not in the face. :)

FrankyTheClamp

08/12/2010, 11:47

lancelot

08/12/2010, 11:50

After seeing the "World Champion" team that was run at GenCon...please. Just, please...for the sake of the game.

2x Scarlet Witches?

2x Jason Bloods?

Right.

lancelot

08/12/2010, 11:51

no, simply for variety/personal preference

I never bought into the "this game was designed to be comic accurate" argument, it was designed to allow dream battles and dream teams, look at the original copy for the game :)

edit: 9 times out of 10 i play theme, but that one time i am going to a major tourny (say a con) then i break out multiples, or if it suits me thematically i will (say multiple kang, or spiderman, or really anyone like Ironman)

Judges still have the discretion to approve theme teams. Bringing a multitude of Kangs and saying they're the Council of Kang? It'd so fly in my book. Don't see how Highlanders would take away from this.

FrankyTheClamp

08/12/2010, 12:21

After seeing the "World Champion" team that was run at GenCon...please. Just, please...for the sake of the game.

2x Scarlet Witches?

2x Jason Bloods?

Right.

how is that for the sake of the game, by eliminating that option you exclude a type of gamer, the competitive gamer, the way the game is designed as it stands it appeals to a broad spectrum of gamers. The tournament gamer spends just as much (if not more) then a casual gamer, and drives the secondary market (also good for the game). Also 4/5 venues i have been to in the past the players have unwritten/unenforced rules about highlander/comic accuracy, so why is there a need to change the dynamic of the game to support this?

FrankyTheClamp

08/12/2010, 12:21

Judges still have the discretion to approve theme teams. Bringing a multitude of Kangs and saying they're the Council of Kang? It'd so fly in my book. Don't see how Highlanders would take away from this.

see my last post

aqhoffman

08/12/2010, 12:39

Also 4/5 venues i have been to in the past the players have unwritten/unenforced rules about highlander/comic accuracy, so why is there a need to change the dynamic of the game to support this?

That is the issue, in a nutshell. You acknowledge that the large majority of people play highlander rules- 4/5 in your rough estimate. I'd say my limited experience has been 2/3 or so. Very similar.

Is it not logical to say then, that tourny team builds, and the results from those tournaments, indicate that tournies are entirely different animals from the game as it is played by virtually all of us? You and many others admit that we play fun, thematic teams, and try to avoid those eye rolling teams of multiple kid flashes, scarlet witches, OOTS bats, etc. I think we all have agreed on that. So in your opinion, should tournament rules reflect that reality?

Or should we, as is currently the case, play a completely different game come tourny time? Because if you want to be uber competitive, you or I will have to swallow our pride and submit a team that doesn't reflect anything that has been debated on either side of this argument, this entire post.

I get the whole "anything you or anyone else forces on me is imposing on me, but my ideas do not create the same dilemma for you" thing that some argue. I see it in my own arguments even. However, the use of multiples of overpowered/undercosted "shoulda been uniques" figs by our competition imposes the need to do the same thing. Or just stand on your principles and take the loss, which is what I do :p Lose every time? no, but look at the teams and tourny results. Certainly well beyond statistically significant!

FrankyTheClamp

08/12/2010, 12:51

.

I get the whole "anything you or anyone else forces on me is imposing on me, but my ideas do not create the same dilemma for you" thing that some argue. I see it in my own arguments even. However, the use of multiples of overpowered/undercosted "shoulda been uniques" figs by our competition imposes the need to do the same thing. Or just stand on your principles and take the loss, which is what I do :p Lose every time? no, but look at the teams and tourny results. Certainly well beyond statistically significant!

That particular part becomes a design issue rather then a rules issue

but back to my argument, why change the game? for the sake of changing it? It becomes a pure business stand point then, if they change it to make non generic unique, then all the powergamers of the world get excluded why knock of a potential market?

also really in comics how many times have there been time travel, clones, alternate reality etc? so how can you say its not comic accurate, cause it hasnt been done for that particular character yet?

also while i am on the soapbox, theme keywords are bull, everyone guest stars on every team all the time lol crossovers, universe events etc, sure the character/fig represents one point in their career but what if they never get another click, should keywords be dynamic? constantly changing and being updated?

this is the one problem with these debates on uniqueness and comic accuracy, everyone has a differing opinion on what defines comic accurate. to some its only what has been printed to others it is the possibility of it happens and to even others they just dont care and play they way that is the most fun for them.

Suttkus

08/12/2010, 17:30

One theme keeps coming up among people on both sides of this argument (and I gotta say its cool to see so many votes on a poll that was only on home page for a day!): "I don't play duplicates unless its "accurate" or weirdly fun, etc, but other people do, and I'll defend their right." "I don't want any more rules added to this game/your opinion added to this game", etc. This even from people who argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply to the game. One cannot argue comic accuracy applies when convenient for them, and then argue that comic accuracy doesn't apply.

But they aren't doing that. Saying, "I build for comic accuracy" isn't an argument, it's a statement. You can still say it isn't/shouldn't be a rule, even if it's one you personally follow.

Take me. 95% of my teams are "comic accurate" to a degree that satisfies me. I sometimes fudge a bit for the sake of a build (putting on Character X and Y together even when they were never on at the same time), or substituting a similar dial for a character I don't have/can't fit into a team, but I live up to my own standards. But I see no reason whatsoever to force other people to live up to my standards, certainly not to live up to anything above my standards.

Besides, I remember being a new player, when I didn't have 2271 different figures to choose from. A "No dupes" rule penalizes new players terribly. When I had 40 instead of 2271, I didn't have the luxury of making "comic book accurate" teams. I used duplicates of pieces I had because I had them. I couldn't afford to start team building with, "Hey, I think a Frightful Four team sounds fun this week". I used two vet human torches on my Fantastic Four team back then because I HAD them, and didn't have any other way to fill up an FF team! So, no, I don't support changing the rules to make things tougher on new players.

Every single example- with the exceptions of say Cuckoo or Multiplex, or others that inherently have that ability as part of their power and it's written on their card, or could be errata'd if it wasn't in the case of REV- given here of multiples in a comic is actually a great example of how every single occurrence of said argument supports that each character is slightly different! Legion of 3 World? umm, 3 completely different takes on the legion, and look how differently each Brainiac or Timber Wolf or Saturn Girl looked and acted! No one was identical, not same age, look, powers& use, etc.

Yes, because I have three slightly different Timber Wolf figures from which to make a Legion of Three Worlds team. No, wait, they've only made one Timber Wolf. I suppose I could use some Wolverines. He is such a Timber Wolf rip-off. Because, you know, a Legion of three Worlds team with two Wolverines is totally comics accurate.

We could go on for days trying to out geek each other with posts on comic storyline recall, minutae like that above, etc and still not change anyone's thinking. Could, in theory, some writer make EXACTLY the same character, but just make 10 of them? They do exactly the same thing, look exactly the same way, and have no variation or actions, ability whatsoever? Good luck with that title, but sure, I suppose one could. It hasn't happened yet. Besides, the whole comic accuracy argument is beneath a few of you on here, and isn't even relevant to the discussion, right?

How about game intention accuracy then? What was the name of the first two sets?

Infinity Challenge
Hypertime

Why? The designers titled them very specifically to justify redundant use of characters.

Look at the played pieces among virtually all of the recent high finishers in tournies. Its not sour grapes for anyone to observe that those figs are strictly played for ultimate powers/win at all cost game play. Its called objectivity. We can all do it, if we so chose. Thank god we don't, because this game would die if everyone used the same 2 dozen figs and multiples within that sample, for the sole purpose of winning.

And changing the rules to make most figures unique will not change the way high level tournaments are played. Sure, he'd have to substitute another support fig for Scarlet Witch and another fig for Jason Blood, but you can't possibly be arguing that there aren't other nearly-as-cheesy figures to replace them with, can you? It wouldn't actually change anything! It would just annoy people who aren't playing nationals while you would be complaining, "I'm so tired of seeing Scarlet Witch/Other Cheese Fig pairs for PC".

And there are already uniques in every set. Sometime quite a few. If your argument is truthful, those should be bothering you every bit as much!

Nonsense. Those figures are made unique, hypothetically, because they have an ability that would be unbalanced in multiples. Now, we can all complain about WKs individual choices in regards to this, of course, but nobody here is arguing, "Every freaking piece needs to be generic!" Thanks for the strawman.

Or, we can all express our own freedom and creativity and play the same 2 dozen pieces that are super powerful or efficient for their points for tournaments only, while playing what we like to play every other week ;) That's my biggest bug.

Adopting a highlander rule will do what for this? Make them play with the same 2 dozen+3 different pieces instead of 2 dozen? Woot. That's diversity for you!

I field many fun, creative, competitive teams, like everyone else on this board I am sure. Okay, so maybe my Teen Titans get beat every time, but others do well. However, if I go to a big tourny, its almost a whole different game, and that game has nothing to do with what we've all been talking about.

I know. Sucks. That's life. Me, I can't play in high level tournaments. I'm just not bloodthirsty enough. So, I'll never win Worlds. You know what? I'm okay with this.

***

IMO-only figures that can or will be abused should be made unique and it's obvious that NecaKids does not have a clue as to what figs really to make unique.

Some times they get it right but alot of times they don't.

ie:
SI Doctor Strange
HoT common Thor
Crisis Kid Flash
SR Scarlet Witch
BaTB Jason Blood

All should have been uniques.

I would support all of those being issued errata and made Unique. And I could suggest a few others. I also tend to think every piece over 200 points should probably be unique, just on principle. : - )

***

Good points on the uniques. Honestly, I'm as befuddled as everyone else on why some uniques were designated as such vs. others not.

Well, in REV days, it didn't really have that much to do with playability, which was kind of a shame.

***

Look, everybody moaning about sealed, you can use doubles. That is a specific time it should be allowed. However, in regular tourney builds,n limit to uniqueness. You can fulfill all your cloning needs with other versions of said models.

No, you really can't.

Can I make "Batmen of All Nations" using different models? Sure, there are 22 different freaking figures named "Batman" in this game, not counting "Bruce Wayne"s and "Dark Knight Detective" and "Matchstick Malone" and who knows what all else.

But can I do the "Fatal Five Thousand"? No because there's only one model of Validus! Here's a major turning point in Legion history, which can't be done if figures are made arbitrarily unique. (Of course, if it was done, the team would be slaughtered for having been stuck with the trashy Calculator ability... but that's not the point.) Can I team up Phantom Girl and her sister? Well, they didn't make her sister, but I could just use another copy of PG... oh, wait, she's not on the approved list of duplicatable-under-highlander because her sister is too obscure and got over-looked. Sure as Cable has New Warriors keyword, this will happen. Sucks, of course.

So, no, you cannot just use other models.

If you think Multiple man and the cuckoos get robbed, use common sense and say that they can have dupes.

Who's common sense? Sure, Multiple Man is obvious from the name and Cuckoo is blatant from the card, but tell me that EVERY judge is going to recognize "Fatal Five Thousand" as an actual moment in comics history? Are we now expecting every local judge to know every facet of every character in Heroclix so that he can distinguish between, "I need multiple Validus because I'm duplicating the scene in Titans/Legion crossover" from "I need multiple Ultimates Scarlet Witches because they totally cloned her a hundred times in issue 500 of Ultimates." Speaking as a local judge, I don't read Ultimates and if someone tells me that issue 500 has a hundred Scarlet Witch clones, what am I supposed to do? Demand he bring in an issue? "Ooops, wrong issue, maybe it was 501. I can still play it, right?"

This is not realistic. "Common sense" is not an effective answer here.

The argument for most identical players is I wanna run my clones, blah blah blah. It's not for that. You wanna use the character rules that are really good, in a higher quality.

Fine. But making everything unique won't stop powergaming, just one type of it, and it WILL trash those of us who like making weird variant teams.

A rule that doesn't solve the problem and does create new problems is a bad rule, so Highlander is a bad rule.

Oots Batman and HoT Cap are really good by themselves. You guys want to break the game by having an army of them.

I have never used multiple OOTS batmen in a team. I don't even own one HoT Cap, much less two, but given it's reputation as cheese, I wouldn't use two of them either. You want to stop them being overused, fine, petition WK to errata THOSE FIGURES to be Unique. They certainly deserve it.

But make every figure unique? This makes as much sense as outlawing boxes because people smuggle things in them.

I know, nobody should tell you how to have your fun and you can do what you want with your figs. However, the people on the other view don't think it's fun to face that.

And I know people who "don't think it's fun" to face DC figures. Or to face Joker/Lockjaw teams. I don't think it's fun facing Earth-2 Superman.

So, I can just arbitrarily ban other people doing those things?

And that's a little above half.

And if the rules change, I'll enforce the rules, sucky as I think they are, just like I'm enforcing the "-2 to movement when carrying" rule that I think is totally garbage now. (When I don't actually forget about it, which is often, sorry. I'm a bad judge. I admit this.)

Is your fun that much more important than everyone else's fun?

Is yours? This question is a complete waste of time, because it works absolutely as well in the opposite direction.

Shouldn't you both be having fun together?

One thing I find fun is crushing a cheese team with 40 OOTS Batmen with a badly built Frightful Four team. Why are you trying to mess up my fun?

***

Judges still have the discretion to approve theme teams.

No they don't. At least, not anymore than they have wide discretion to make up whatever house rules they want. This statement is no more meaningful than saying "Judges still have the discretion to outlaw characters with Impervious". It's just as true.

Bringing a multitude of Kangs and saying they're the Council of Kang? It'd so fly in my book. Don't see how Highlanders would take away from this.

I repeat, "They totally cloned her in issue 500!" Short of having read every comic book in history and having complete recall, this is not a viable solution.

Suttkus

08/12/2010, 17:33

That is the issue, in a nutshell. You acknowledge that the large majority of people play highlander rules- 4/5 in your rough estimate. I'd say my limited experience has been 2/3 or so. Very similar.

My experience is 0 for 5. I've never seen a venue with a Highlander rule.

Behemoth

08/12/2010, 17:49

My experience is 0 for 5. I've never seen a venue with a Highlander rule.

My old venue used that rule back since Icons for events not pre-determined by Wizkids. It's harder now with fewer generics being made compared to the first 4 sets.

FrankyTheClamp

08/12/2010, 18:37

My experience is 0 for 5. I've never seen a venue with a Highlander rule.

the ones i went to didnt have the rule it was just the way it was played at those venues, it was an honor thing rather then a rules thing

I really dont thing that the game needs to change in this manor, sure they could have designed some of the figs to be unique but again that is a design flaw not a rules flaw.

As it stands the only rules in the game i have a problem with is outwit and that is a whole other debate.

The game is inherently not comic accurate so why try to trim down the part that is really the closest to comic accurate we get ... and now i will qualify that. Scarlet Witch, the biggest deus ex machina in comics history, if she wants it to be it happens, look now there are 2 of her! pretty much in the world of comics, a world of magic, mutants, time travel, alternate dimensions, clones and various other ways of having 2 of the same person in the same place at the same time, why are we arguing this rule. shouldn't you be arguing how doomsday and wonderwomen are so slow? or how the wasp can carry the blob? or how a paramedic can patch up the man of steel?

think about it people, the game is really a whole bunch of debates, and really this is the least significant as far as rules bending/abusing goes.

Spider-Bat

08/12/2010, 22:11

Also 4/5 venues i have been to in the past the players have unwritten/unenforced rules about highlander/comic accuracy, so why is there a need to change the dynamic of the game to support this?
That is the issue, in a nutshell. You acknowledge that the large majority of people play highlander rules- 4/5 in your rough estimate. I'd say my limited experience has been 2/3 or so. Very similar. I've never been at a venue where there was a highlander rule, at least, not that was ever stated. And I don't usually drop in on odd venues for a one-off game either.

The argument for most identical players is I wanna run my clones, blah blah blah. It's not for that. You wanna use the character rules that are really good, in a higher quality.

Are you saying that my team of 5 V Ultimate Spider-Men and LE Ultimate Peter Parker is "really good"?

While I understand that letting there be duplicates of certain figures (OotS batman, HoT Cap, etc.) can "ruin the game" for certain people, why should that affect every other player? I mean, just run a scenario where there are Highlander rules in effect, or make it a house rule. And don't say, "well, if WizKids makes everything Unique you can just run a house rule where duplicates are allowed", as that would make it harder for kids/new players to get in on games.

If a kid buys a few boosters and gets duplicates, that means that a (relatively large) fraction of his new figure collection is not playable. If a new player can't run a good percentage of the figures he/she pulls from a series of random boosters, why would they even bother to buy boosters? Wouldn't they just buy singles? NECA doesn't have any incentive to make it harder for people to get into a game that's already about a decade old and has tons of confusing rules and power combinations, do they?

PISCEAN

08/16/2010, 05:14

If a kid buys a few boosters and gets duplicates, that means that a (relatively large) fraction of his new figure collection is not playable. If a new player can't run a good percentage of the figures he/she pulls from a series of random boosters, why would they even bother to buy boosters? Wouldn't they just buy singles? NECA doesn't have any incentive to make it harder for people to get into a game that's already about a decade old and has tons of confusing rules and power combinations, do they?

When I first started playing clix I had NO inclination whatsoever to play with duplicate figures. Neither did anyone I know who plays clix. What I wanted to do with my dupes was to trade them for figures I did not have.
As for a highlander rule cutting sales, this theory just doesn't hold water to me. My group and venue has always used highlander rules and it has never had an impact on their purchases in the slightest. What does affect purchases are the economy, unemployment and chase figures.
Simple fact is no one wants dupes in their pulls which is why Wizkids has striven for a booster distribution that puts the most variety in players hands with the least purchases. Every time a new set comes out and people post their pulls they always consider those with the least dupes as the best.
Besides, there is no reason you can't use house rules to allow duplicates in your casual games just as house rules allow everyone to currently customize the game to their tastes.
I think Highlander rules would be ultimately beneficial to the official tournament scene which is why I support them being instated into the rules. I think it would increase the variety of figures you see in play and spur greater creativity in team building. Sure someone will still find a cheesy team build but it will be more difficult to do. Also, you can't house rule the official tournaments but everyone can house rule their own games anyway they want. In your home no one can tell you how to play, not even official rulings.

Spider-Bat

08/16/2010, 11:43

When I first started playing clix I had NO inclination whatsoever to play with duplicate figures. Neither did anyone I know who plays clix. What I wanted to do with my dupes was to trade them for figures I did not have.Well, then you had more people in your area that play, then. when I started playing, it was myself and two friends. We had to play duplicates at times, so official an "highlander rule" would have kept us from doing that.

As for a highlander rule cutting sales, this theory just doesn't hold water to me. My group and venue has always used highlander rules and it has never had an impact on their purchases in the slightest. What does affect purchases are the economy, unemployment and chase figures.I'm not suggesting that every venue would have this happen to them, but it's possible. I was merely suggesting a possible outcome, not saying it was 100% for sure going to happen.

Simple fact is no one wants dupes in their pulls which is why Wizkids has striven for a booster distribution that puts the most variety in players hands with the least purchases. Every time a new set comes out and people post their pulls they always consider those with the least dupes as the best.Actually, I want dupes. I do some mods, and having multiple copies of figures means I can put the mod on the dial and not worry about having to remove/reglue the mod every time I want to play the figure. For example, If I want to run the SI human elektra, I have a modded version that looks human and the normal version. Not to mention that I use her dial for a Stormshadow (from G.I. Joe)... Ideally, I would have three copies of her, so as to not worry about screwing up the dial when I remove the sculpt.

I also currently use M-11's for Cobra B.A.T.'s, so I like being able to play multiples of them.

Besides, there is no reason you can't use house rules to allow duplicates in your casual games just as house rules allow everyone to currently customize the game to their tastes.I don't play casual games at home, as I play clix 2 or 3 times a week, at venues. and while some venues would be willing to House Rule things like that, at least one would not.

And by the same token, there's no reason you can't house Rule a highlander rule at home (unless you don't play at home). Or, play scenarios where there are limits on figures... Since the venues you play at seem to do that anyway, I don't see what the problem is with continuing to do that.

Going back to when I started playing Clix... We didn't have house rules, or modify the rules in anyway. The game comes with rules, so we played by them (as we understood them). When I'm new to a game, I tend not to try to change the rules and play my own version, as I like to be able to try to find other players, and not playing by the standard rules limits the number of people who are willing to play that game with you, as then they don't understand then changes you made.

I think Highlander rules would be ultimately beneficial to the official tournament scene which is why I support them being instated into the rules. I think it would increase the variety of figures you see in play and spur greater creativity in team building. Sure someone will still find a cheesy team build but it will be more difficult to do.I agree that a highlander rule would make higher level games a bit more interesting.

Also, you can't house rule the official tournaments but everyone can house rule their own games anyway they want. In your home no one can tell you how to play, not even official rulings.Actually, you can use house rules in official tournaments; venues do it all the time. And why wouldn't WizKids/NECA be able to house rule an official tournement? They're the final say on how the tournement is run anyway, so there's no reason they couldn't say, "this World Championship tournement will not allow duplicates of named characters" (or something akin to that).

Thrumble Funk

08/16/2010, 11:46

This is still going on? Huh! Who knew?

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 12:03

As for a highlander rule cutting sales, this theory just doesn't hold water to me. My group and venue has always used highlander rules and it has never had an impact on their purchases in the slightest. What does affect purchases are the economy, unemployment and chase figures.

I would cut my purchases in half, i already get too many dupes of unplayable because they suck figures, so saying that every (or majority) of the figures in a set would only be 1 per team would be awful, it would also ruin the sealed game.

Besides, there is no reason you can't use house rules to allow duplicates in your casual games just as house rules allow everyone to currently customize the game to their tastes.

and you can house rule highlander, so why change the rules of the game to accept a house rule that is about 50% accepted by the player base

I think Highlander rules would be ultimately beneficial to the official tournament scene which is why I support them being instated into the rules. I think it would increase the variety of figures you see in play and spur greater creativity in team building. Sure someone will still find a cheesy team build but it will be more difficult to do. Also, you can't house rule the official tournaments but everyone can house rule their own games anyway they want. In your home no one can tell you how to play, not even official rulings.

actually i don't think it would help, you have now limited the options of the competitive player. Part of this could be solved by dial design rather then rules changes, things like OOTS and Cap should have been unique, but other figures meh. OOTS i understand because it was in the common slot and common slot uniques are a bad idea, but really he is not as bad as people make him out to be .... if you get map choice he is boned if not you can play around him, if he gets graveyard (a recent development) then it gets to be an issue.

Cap i have no idea why he was not made unique, same with scarlet witch (but i go back to my point of her powers, if she wanted to be two of herself poof there are 2 of her now lol)

malger

08/16/2010, 15:32

For those of you who want the highlander rule, How would you collate this? 2 uniques & 3 generics? 3 Uniques and 2 generics? Uniques only and generics in army packs?

Thrumble Funk

08/16/2010, 15:42

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 15:52

Again, re-reading this, it seems like some people just want an easier shot at a victory in the big tournaments. Not sure why, but hey, whatever.

I personally think that "big tourney" play is so redundant, inane, and predictable that it isn't worth the entry fee, but if I decided to play in a big tourney I'd certainly know that going in. I wouldn't try to change it to better fit my play sensibilities.

Play sensibilities is a personal restriction based on preference and taste

also going for the easy win? Do you think they walk up with this team and just put it on the table and win? they need to hone their playing skills as well as the building skills, the one that won it all went with a strat that allowed him to work on favorable outcomes, and generally isn't that what a game is about, steering the odds in your favor? Some people for get that under the costumes and sculpts there is a game that people are trying to win, not just pushing pieces around a board. Some people just take it more seriously then others. Really there are only 10-12 North American tournaments i can think of where this kind of play happens, generally in my experience at the grass roots level (the level that really is the source of the game's popularity people play happily under the self imposed restriction well still allowing the flexibility of a clone or time travel or dimension hopping team to exist. If you change it to all uniques you have to house rule to allow that if you leave it the way it is people can play both without any rule changes at all

rancidtwinkie

08/16/2010, 15:54

After seeing the "World Champion" team that was run at GenCon...please. Just, please...for the sake of the game.

2x Scarlet Witches?

2x Jason Bloods?

Right.

But what I find utterly ridiculous about this whole "no dupes, because it isn't comic accurate" issue is that no one seems to be complaining about "SW is Marvel and JB is DC - that shouldn't be allowed. It isn't Comic Accurate. (Even mixing 616 with Ultimates is a no-no.)

If you want Highlander because it is comic accurate, then you must also have Single Universe and no mixing Heroes and Villains either! And, you must provide documentation of each team you bring to the event. I want to see pictures or you are disqualified.

Thrumble Funk

08/16/2010, 15:57

Play sensibilities is a personal restriction based on preference and taste

also going for the easy win? Do you think they walk up with this team and just put it on the table and win? they need to hone their playing skills as well as the building skills, the one that won it all went with a strat that allowed him to work on favorable outcomes, and generally isn't that what a game is about, steering the odds in your favor?

I'm sure there's a lot more to it than I'm saying, but I'm going by what I see.

What I see from the tournament write-ups are nearly identical teams stacked with powers that you'd completely expect to be there.

I think the last time a big tourney team made me say "WOW!" was years ago, when someone used Lazarus Pit to great effect. Since then, most of the teams I've seen seem to follow the formula of "Efficient attacker + a bunch of PC/Perplex/Outwit/uber power of the week = BRILLIANT!"

Not my bag.

If you change it to all uniques you have to house rule to allow that if you leave it the way it is people can play both without any rule changes at all

Agreed.

Still waiting to hear about how my Cave Carson team of miners is "broken"...

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 15:58

But what I find utterly ridiculous about this whole "no dupes, because it isn't comic accurate" issue is that no one seems to be complaining about "SW is Marvel and JB is DC - that shouldn't be allowed. It isn't Comic Accurate. (Even mixing 616 with Ultimates is a no-no.)

If you want Highlander because it is comic accurate, then you must also have Single Universe and no mixing Heroes and Villains either! And, you must provide documentation of each team you bring to the event. I want to see pictures or you are disqualified.

THANK YOU and qft

this is what i get at people with the highlander rule are really only highlander when its convenient. so how far does it go, can i have 2 people named wolverine on the same team even if they are different figures, but one is a past version, how about xorn and magnetto?

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 16:01

I'm sure there's a lot more to it than I'm saying, but I'm going by what I see.

What I see from the tournament write-ups are nearly identical teams stacked with powers that you'd completely expect to be there.

I think the last time a big tourney team made me say "WOW!" was years ago, when someone used Lazarus Pit to great effect. Since then, most of the teams I've seen seem to follow the formula of "Efficient attacker + a bunch of PC/Perplex/Outwit/uber power of the week = BRILLIANT!"

Not my bag.

Agreed.

Still waiting to hear about how my Cave Carson team of miners is "broken"...

I agree, but how many hours of playtesting, researching and brainstorming went into that jason blood team. I know when i was going to a specter tournament years ago i spent a good week of evenings trying to rack my brain on who would be bringing what and how mine would play and what strats to deal with/use. there is alot of dedication that go into those "cheese" teams for the first time they are played. I agree there is a formula, but don't comic book teams follow formulas too ;)

sol

08/16/2010, 16:03

I agree there is a formula, but don't comic book teams follow formulas too ;)

Exactly. Nobody's building Avengers teams with CT Thor's on em, they are using HoT Thor, etc, etc.

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 16:04

Exactly. Nobody's building Avengers teams with CT Thor's on em, they are using HoT Thor, etc, etc.

well i more ment

wise cracker, melee fighter, smart guy, flyer etc lol

Thrumble Funk

08/16/2010, 16:06

I agree, but how many hours of playtesting, researching and brainstorming went into that jason blood team.

I can't imagine many. Sure, you plan for certain eventualities, but you generally know that every other player would be bringing "t3h n3w h0tn3$$" pieces/mechanics. Hard to go wrong with four re-rolls on each turn.

Meh, to each their own.

rancidtwinkie

08/16/2010, 16:07

Also the "No Dupes on Character" or "No Dupes on Name" takes the game far outside the realm of a collectible miniatures game.

I know a lot of people who don't know diddly about comics, but they love HeroClix. So to them, all of these Pro-'No Dupes' posters are telling them that basically THEY CAN'T PLAY.

Either that or they have to do hours of research to even build a team.

Quick Quiz: Is it legal to build a team consisting of Yellowjacket, Antman, Goliath and Dr Henry Pym?

OK, imagine a non-comics reader coming into the game with a No Dupes rule in place and goes against a team of 5 'Green Lanterns'. He is going to say WTF and quit when someone then points out that he can't play Robin and Nightwing on the same team.

sol

08/16/2010, 16:08

well i more ment

wise cracker, melee fighter, smart guy, flyer etc lol

That too. But you can have a completely putzy team with those 'archetypes'.

However, i'm getting at the point that if 'dupes' are 'cheese', there is 'cheese' with no dupes, thus that's an invalid argument because within the 'theme paradigm' it's min/maxed along with the arguable restriction of duplicate figures.

FrankyTheClamp

08/16/2010, 16:10

thanoson

08/17/2010, 12:49

FrankyTheClamp

08/17/2010, 12:54

What I want to know is why can't the "competitive player" make a good team without dupes? I do it all the time and I can win without having to resort to cookie cutter list. Why can't a team of FF and Power Pack be enough to win the game for them? Especially if fighting against others that are playing a non dupe team?

BTW, my venue does play single universe, highlander, and no villain/hero teams unless that is gonna be the scenario. Such as 2 weeks ago we did teams of arch enemies, last nite was team ups/sidekicks/duo's, next week is all females. Makes for a much more competitive game than you guys think. Oh, and for the new kids that come to the venue, I let them raid my extras so they can get teams and figs they want. I have so many of them I can do that.

Its not a matter of they can't be competitive its more a matter of why limit?

and doing single universe, no hero/villain combos is so restrictive, i dunno i don't like to be limited that much. Do you require proof of villain/hero status?

also for newbies not all venues are as friendly as you on doubles/extras, personally i don't lend figures out any more and i don't bring my extras with me, i have had a few figs stolen so i am not a fan of lending other then to friends.

If i have to start bringing a mobile link to wiki to build my teams forget it

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:06

Its not a matter of they can't be competitive its more a matter of why limit?

I think its an interesting question.

I've yet to see a competitive team that isn't just a repackaging of whatever mechanic is the new hotness at the time. Most of which entail multiple dupes.

I'd like to just once...ONCE...see a team win the big dance without having to use multiple cheap PCers/Perplexers/Outwitters/etc.

Perplexinator

08/17/2010, 13:08

It doesn't matter if it's comic accurate or not, no superhero team has two of the same person on it. Power Rangers didn't have 2 Red Rangers, and Teenage Mutant Turtles didn't have 2 Leonardos on there.

But there was one episode of the turtles where turtles from different dimensions teamed up. And I think that can explain why a Unique Cyclops from one set could be teamed up with another Unique Cyclops from another set. Alternative universe or different time period. That, I can sit with.

You really get into min-max'ing if you allow multiples of almost every piece. We already have powerhouses and super special pieces as uniques because multiples of those wouldn't be fair. If players are min-max'ing with multiples of characters like the World Champ did, how is that any different?

I think it makes perfect sense, but it would hurt the game because sales would drop because everyone would only need 1 of every piece (minus generics or multiple men, etc).

I think one reason I'd like to see this come true is because I think it opens the doors for other characters that weren't played as much because people were playing 3 Question AA on their teams, or 2 Scarlet Witch, etc. Also, it makes the teams more interesting, to see which guys people are fielding.

I don't know if it'd change the game in my area that much. Runaways never has dups, nor does the Black Lantern squad, or Sinestro Squad (sometimes 2 Yellow Lanterns, but those are generics).

FrankyTheClamp

08/17/2010, 13:09

I think its an interesting question.

I've yet to see a competitive team that isn't just a repackaging of whatever mechanic is the new hotness at the time. Most of which entail multiple dupes.

I'd like to just once...ONCE...see a team win the big dance without having to use multiple cheap PCers/Perplexers/Outwitters/etc.

that is what competitive play is about, maximizing your return on limited resources

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:17

that is what competitive play is about, maximizing your return on limited resources

Right. And, to me, the best player is not the one who can throw together the cheapest/most effective pieces, it is the one who can use whatever pieces they have and outposition/outmaneuver/out-game their opponent (within reason - ain't no way Mole Man and a bunch of Moloids are getting out of the first round, for example).

I don't know...I just have a hard time being blown away by "championship" teams when they're something that anyone with reading comprehension and a mouse finger could put together.

Jason Blood is quite obviously a great figure at a cheap cost. Putting 4 of them on a team isn't some bit of strategic mastery to me, more like common sense in an uber-competitive tournament.

But again, to each his/her own.

Tarnish

08/17/2010, 13:18

I think its an interesting question.

I've yet to see a competitive team that isn't just a repackaging of whatever mechanic is the new hotness at the time. Most of which entail multiple dupes.

I'd like to just once...ONCE...see a team win the big dance without having to use multiple cheap PCers/Perplexers/Outwitters/etc.

I'd like to see a Wrecking Crew Team win too. But somehow I think people will skip them in favor of better teams.

Tarnish

Tarnish

08/17/2010, 13:21

The probblem is that the game is really two parts.

Part 1 is team building.
Part 2 is playing.

Being good in part 1 helps immeasurably in part 2. Weaknesses in either 1 or 2 can be overcome by strengths in the other. But in high level play the winners are going to be people that do both 1 and 2 very well.

Tarnish

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:22

I'd like to see a Wrecking Team win too. But somehow I think people will skip them in favor of better teams.

Tarnish

Ain't no way the Wrecking Crew is winning much of anything, sadly.

Nah, I'd just like someone to take a pretty synergistic team like...say...FC X-Men and make a decent go of it.

Hell, I'd even take something like HoT Cap and a bunch of ninjas!

sol

08/17/2010, 13:39

I don't know...I just have a hard time being blown away by "championship" teams when they're something that anyone with reading comprehension and a mouse finger could put together.

That's your hangup, pal.

At the championship level, it doesn't matter if the team is comic book accurate or dupecentric or whatever. At that level it is a GAME pure and simple. A game to be won.

The thing is some people just can't separate the two. Obviously, I'm not one of those people, and perhaps you are one of those people. There is nothing wrong with that, on either side.

However, the game can be themey with dupes or it can be cheesy with dupes. It can be themey without dupes and it can be cheesy without dupes.

What i've been trying to say all along is these aren't mutually exclusive 'styles' of playing. The rules allow for you to do it your way, just as it allows others to do it their way.

Can't we all just get along?

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:47

That's your hangup, pal.

Nah, that'd be an opinion. "Hangup" implies that I'm being prevented or preventing myself from participating in/dealing with something based on some personal issue.

As I have no desire to play on the uber level, it is not a hangup. :)

At the championship level, it doesn't matter if the team is comic book accurate or dupecentric or whatever. At that level it is a GAME pure and simple. A game to be won.

Right. No confusion there. I'm just saying I'd like to see someone win with superior tactics and not superior min/max pit crew.

Kind of like I'd like to see a baseball team with a mediocre salary budget win the World Series. Spectator thing.

The thing is some people just can't separate the two. Obviously, I'm not one of those people, and perhaps you are one of those people. There is nothing wrong with that, on either side.

The game is pretty much nothing to me without the characters, so nope. Can't do it. And I avoid situations/venues in which I'd have to.

Can't we all just get along?

Who's fighting? :ermm:

sol

08/17/2010, 13:48

Who's fighting? :ermm:

Okay...play together in unity?

malger

08/17/2010, 13:49

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:53

Many teams could be more competitive except for the proliferation of outwit and psychic blast which makes it virtually impossible for a comic accurate team with little or no range to be competitive. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying...

Yeah, true, but HC has been a range-dominated game since the Firelord days. Which is to say since the beginning.

Thrumble Funk

08/17/2010, 13:54

Yeah, true, but HC has been a range-dominated game since the Firelord days. Which is to say since the beginning.

Incidentally, prior to the Predators, I loved playing HrC because range was SEVERELY limited in that game. It played like more of a board game and less of a sniper duel.

joshrowe

08/17/2010, 14:05

thanoson

08/17/2010, 14:09

that is what competitive play is about, maximizing your return on limited resources

Sure, in a sealed enviroment I can accept that. But when a player has access to more figs, but still doing said teams? Just screams of lazy and unimaginable.

sol

08/17/2010, 14:17

Sure, in a sealed enviroment I can accept that. But when a player has access to more figs, but still doing said teams? Just screams of lazy and unimaginable.

In your opinion.

That said, throwing together 3 HoT Caps or whatever just because on 'any given Sunday' might actually be 'lazy and unimaginable (i think you mean unimaginative)', but it might just as well be whim, or maybe the person who did this thought it out and premeditated to do it.

That's just your judgement of it.

FrankyTheClamp

08/17/2010, 14:18

Sure, in a sealed enviroment I can accept that. But when a player has access to more figs, but still doing said teams? Just screams of lazy and unimaginable.

It screams of wanting to win a large prize, and can you really fault someone?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The way the rules are as it stands it is possible to play pretty much all styles of teams, so again i ask why change it?

Here is something to consider, from a pure gameplay mechanic/stand point, what does making all but generics unique really do to improve the overall game play experience?

sol

08/17/2010, 14:22

Here is something to consider, from a pure gameplay mechanic/stand point, what does making all but generics unique really do to improve the overall game play experience?

It's a great question, but I doubt anyone will have a logical answer that doesn't degenerate into 'I don't like it!' answers.

malger

08/17/2010, 14:26

Yeah, true, but HC has been a range-dominated game since the Firelord days. Which is to say since the beginning.
True, but there are things that could be used to balance the power, for instance, longer dials for shorter range and shorter dials for higher range. Defensive modifiers that are not outwittable and aren't affected by the rule of three such as +1 to defense for every 2 -3 squares between the attacker and defender and +1 to defense when attacked by a character at a lower elevation. To be fair, there should probably also be a +1 to the attack value when attacking from a higher elevation (high ground advantage), etc.

It would be nice to bae able to build a close combat team that had a shot at winning without HSS or an SP like Green Scar's or Rampaging Hulk's.

FrankyTheClamp

08/17/2010, 14:37

True, but there are things that could be used to balance the power, for instance, longer dials for shorter range and shorter dials for higher range. Defensive modifiers that are not outwittable and aren't affected by the rule of three such as +1 to defense for every 2 -3 squares between the attacker and defender and +1 to defense when attacked by a character at a lower elevation. To be fair, there should probably also be a +1 to the attack value when attacking from a higher elevation (high ground advantage), etc.

It would be nice to bae able to build a close combat team that had a shot at winning without HSS or an SP like Green Scar's or Rampaging Hulk's.

This becomes a design problem rather then a rules problem

also there are very few war/miniatures games where range supremacy isn't dominant

rancidtwinkie

08/17/2010, 14:37

It doesn't matter if it's comic accurate or not, no superhero team has two of the same person on it.

Pym in Avengers Forever
Council of Kangs
Wolverines in Exiles
Cuckoos - in so many comics
Thunderbolts/The Initiative - Beetles (three), Spider-Clones,
Legion of Three Worlds -

That is just off the top of my head ...

rancidtwinkie

08/17/2010, 14:44

Yes. The main reason I have no interest in tournament level play is because I don't wanna face 2 Batmen, 2 Captains America, or heck, even 2 Marvel Boys. Once in a while a "clone saga" tournament would be ok, but I never read a comic where 3 Batmen teamed up with 2 Scarlet Witches. Not that I have anything PERSONALLY against someone who plays this team, I just hate that the rules allow it. It seems stupid to me.

But you are OK with a GL toting around 3 Gotham City Detectives (triple Enhance) and three Gotham Undercover Detectives (triple PD w/Stealth)?

Why is one 'Cheeze that should be banned by the No Dupes Rule' and the other not?

From design perspective what is a "generic" and how is that defined? Anything without a silver or gold ring - or some monumental list with a massive appendix of exceptions that is updated monthly as new comics are published?

Seriously, from game designer/publisher point of view is this realistic or even valid?

thanoson

08/17/2010, 15:33

In your opinion.

That said, throwing together 3 HoT Caps or whatever just because on 'any given Sunday' might actually be 'lazy and unimaginable (i think you mean unimaginative)', but it might just as well be whim, or maybe the person who did this thought it out and premeditated to do it.

That's just your judgement of it.

Heh. That's what I meant. I'm getting old.

thanoson

08/17/2010, 15:43

Pym in Avengers Forever
Council of Kangs
Wolverines in Exiles
Cuckoos - in so many comics
Thunderbolts/The Initiative - Beetles (three), Spider-Clones,
Legion of Three Worlds -

That is just off the top of my head ...

Wolverines were all different Wolverines. I've played this team using the multitude of Wolverines this game has sculpts of. Not one of them was or had to be the same model.

Council of Kangs can be represented using the rev system. DOn't have to be dupes. Plus, throw in Immortus as well.

Spider clones are just that; clones. However, they are normally slightly different in some way. How many Spideys do we have in this game?

Cuckoos have the Sp in their rules. Multiples are expected. Include Multiple Man as well.

Hell, even all the various Ultrons could be used to represent an army of them. Use the different sculpts and and dials to do this. Doesn't have to be the same models.

sol

08/17/2010, 15:45

Doesn't have to be the same models.

But it doesn't have to not be, either. And just how do different sculpts and dials make it less objectionable than the same dial/sculpts?

That's a serious question.

thanoson

08/17/2010, 15:53

sol

08/17/2010, 16:06

Because it represents an alternative version of said character from a different timeline? If you want to go with the Kang or Exiles example.

Plus, I don't think anyone would call you out on being cheesy if they were all from different sets.

So lets switch it around a bit and see how this flies.

Since many of the objections stem from what figure it is being duplicated and not precisely that any figure is being duplicated, say I decided to do a time travelling Batman team using -

R Batman (Hypertime)
E Batman (Hypertime)
V Batman (Justice League)
U Batman (Unleashed)

They are all Bruce Waynes following one line of 'time'. That's legit (or more legit than)?

V Batman (Justice League)
V Batman (Justice League)
V Batman (Justice League)
V Batman (Justice League)

Lets say Time Trapper comes in and pulls 4 Batmans 3 seconds apart in time on Tuesday August 17, 2010 onto a team to complete a mission. Certainly fits into the realm of 'comic book plot', heck, one i'd even want to read.

But...that's NOT legit, right?

Then let's try it again -

E Batman (Hypertime)
E Batman (Hypertime)
E Batman (Hypertime)
E Batman (Hypertime)

What about this one, same story but using a different figure?

FrankyTheClamp

08/17/2010, 16:10

Because it represents an alternative version of said character from a different timeline? If you want to go with the Kang or Exiles example.

Plus, I don't think anyone would call you out on being cheesy if they were all from different sets.

Cheesy is a subjective term, it is all a matter of opinion. And the REV system is dead and gone (thankfully)

And what do you do about characters that don't get made 15 times? like the Iron spiders from initiative, or mystero (smoke and mirrors) or maybe even madrox, sure there is an REV of him but I can only play one of each since all figures are unique and to accomplish a clone army with different sculpts.

what if i want to use green flames as GL constructs (an Idea i was working on) etc. The way the rules stand they allow for an level of customization in the game that is unparalleled

thanoson

08/18/2010, 01:25

Cheesy is a subjective term, it is all a matter of opinion. And the REV system is dead and gone (thankfully)

And what do you do about characters that don't get made 15 times? like the Iron spiders from initiative, or mystero (smoke and mirrors) or maybe even madrox, sure there is an REV of him but I can only play one of each since all figures are unique and to accomplish a clone army with different sculpts.

what if i want to use green flames as GL constructs (an Idea i was working on) etc. The way the rules stand they allow for an level of customization in the game that is unparalleled

Look at the the character in question. Are there multiples of same character with the same abilities in the books? SUch as the Iron Spiders? Are there multiple madrox or Multiple man dupes? Do you really think someone is not going to let you play your Multiple Man army? Or your Cuckoos? Or Multiplex'? The characters that actually have multiple forms of themselves are not the ones everyone is complaining about. It's the others that normally don't have mirror images of themselves that everybody is complaining about. I'm sure if you asked your judge or opponent ahead of time the answer would be a solid yes, they would allow it. You are taking it to an extreme with your version of this rule.

I also like using figs for mods myself. GL constructs is an awesome Idea. In a friendly game, by all means yes. Even at league night. However, I wouldn't think of running my modded up Squadron Supreme in a tournament setting. There would be people that would question my dials and I would not want that.

@Sol. Yes, I'm saying that. During 52, did you see any of the Supermen that were fighting Monarch as the same? Not a single one. They all had something different about them. In that Exiles with the Wolverines, they were all different as well. Not one that was the same. All plucked out of time or different earths. That's the whole idea with multiple Earths. There's a different version of each character. I am saying there are so many different versions of a lot of the clix we have. There are so many different combinations with other figures that could be even better of a challenge to you AND your opponent. Why do you have to try and break the game by running the best of a figure multiple times?

ANd about the new kid that just opens up his 1st box of clix? He'll get more. Don't try to fool me that you guys are looking out for the new kids. Most of us that are posting on here about this have how many post? None of us are new. You want to help them? Give them some of your dupes and unused stuff you're willing to get rid of. Even sell it cheap. That's how you can help the new kids. Don't try to sell me THEY want a team of 2x Jason Bloods and 2x Scarlet Witches with Smokey Foot Caps in the background.

larthosgrr8

08/18/2010, 01:33

Look at the the character in question. Are there multiples of same character with the same abilities in the books? SUch as the Iron Spiders? Are there multiple madrox or Multiple man dupes? Do you really think someone is not going to let you play your Multiple Man army? Or your Cuckoos? Or Multiplex'? The characters that actually have multiple forms of themselves are not the ones everyone is complaining about. It's the others that normally don't have mirror images of themselves that everybody is complaining about. I'm sure if you asked your judge or opponent ahead of time the answer would be a solid yes, they would allow it. You are taking it to an extreme with your version of this rule.

I also like using figs for mods myself. GL constructs is an awesome Idea. In a friendly game, by all means yes. Even at league night. However, I wouldn't think of running my modded up Squadron Supreme in a tournament setting. There would be people that would question my dials and I would not want that.

@Sol. Yes, I'm saying that. During 52, did you see any of the Supermen that were fighting Monarch as the same? Not a single one. They all had something different about them. In that Exiles with the Wolverines, they were all different as well. Not one that was the same. All plucked out of time or different earths. That's the whole idea with multiple Earths. There's a different version of each character. I am saying there are so many different versions of a lot of the clix we have. There are so many different combinations with other figures that could be even better of a challenge to you AND your opponent. Why do you have to try and break the game by running the best of a figure multiple times?

ANd about the new kid that just opens up his 1st box of clix? He'll get more. Don't try to fool me that you guys are looking out for the new kids. Most of us that are posting on here about this have how many post? None of us are new. You want to help them? Give them some of your dupes and unused stuff you're willing to get rid of. Even sell it cheap. That's how you can help the new kids. Don't try to sell me THEY want a team of 2x Jason Bloods and 2x Scarlet Witches with Smokey Foot Caps in the background.
wow...REP TO YOU SIR!!! TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH!! highlander all day.

PISCEAN

08/18/2010, 02:23

Well, then you had more people in your area that play, then. when I started playing, it was myself and two friends. We had to play duplicates at times, so official an "highlander rule" would have kept us from doing that.

Nope I had exactly the same. Myself and 2 friends. We just traded and bought more boosters when we could. I need to clarify that I'm supporting Highlander rules ONLY for sanctioned official tournament play. By that I mean events that Wizkids runs like the world championship at Gencon or other official sponsored events like that. This actually differs from the OP original post. Should have made that more clear in these later posts. For casual friendly play I think the only limit should be that the person your currently playing with agrees with your ideas for play whatever they may be.

I'm not suggesting that every venue would have this happen to them, but it's possible. I was merely suggesting a possible outcome, not saying it was 100% for sure going to happen.
Apologies for misunderstanding your point.

Actually, I want dupes. I do some mods, and having multiple copies of figures means I can put the mod on the dial and not worry about having to remove/reglue the mod every time I want to play the figure. For example, If I want to run the SI human elektra, I have a modded version that looks human and the normal version. Not to mention that I use her dial for a Stormshadow (from G.I. Joe)... Ideally, I would have three copies of her, so as to not worry about screwing up the dial when I remove the sculpt.

I also currently use M-11's for Cobra B.A.T.'s, so I like being able to play multiples of them.

Ok I can see that point. However when your opening a new booster aren't you hoping to get figures you don't already have. What I'm talking about is that when someone buys a brick/case/random boosters they are going to want a distribution that maximizes the number of figures that aren't repeated in the brick/case/or random boosters. Duplicates are inevitable but I don't think a Highlander rule for tournament play is going to make dupes such a huge burden that sales are going to noticeably drop based on that factor alone even if it may change the buying habits of a few. As you demonstrate some people may like them for the reasons you mentioned or others not thought of here which just gives more support to the idea that Highlander rules wouldn't hurt sales.

I don't play casual games at home, as I play clix 2 or 3 times a week, at venues. and while some venues would be willing to House Rule things like that, at least one would not.
I gather with friends to play at a venue as well both for tournaments and for fun. If everyone I played with wanted to play with nothing but duplicates or if we never let anyone play with their duplicates we would be an unhappy bunch.When its casual we have some house rules but everything is malleable to allow people to enjoy themselves. However when it comes to the tournament everyone enjoys the Highlander rules and agrees it makes them view team building differently. There are a very wide range of teams that show up on our tables with figures you wouldn't ordinarily see in a competition for prizes.

And by the same token, there's no reason you can't house Rule a highlander rule at home (unless you don't play at home). Or, play scenarios where there are limits on figures... Since the venues you play at seem to do that anyway, I don't see what the problem is with continuing to do that.
And we will thats not a problem. But I would love to see that in Wizkids official top level competition.

Going back to when I started playing Clix... We didn't have house rules, or modify the rules in anyway. The game comes with rules, so we played by them (as we understood them). When I'm new to a game, I tend not to try to change the rules and play my own version, as I like to be able to try to find other players, and not playing by the standard rules limits the number of people who are willing to play that game with you, as then they don't understand then changes you made.
I agree completely. You need to have a complete and full understanding of the core mechanics of a game before you can modify it meaningfully and positively. As I said I don't mean for the standard rules to have Highlander rules. I would prefer them but for casual play you don't need them. When you get to tournament level is where I would like them to kick in. I don't think this is too drastic a change to have a casual and Highlander-tournament play format.

I agree that a highlander rule would make higher level games a bit more interesting.

:)

Actually, you can use house rules in official tournaments; venues do it all the time. And why wouldn't WizKids/NECA be able to house rule an official tournement? They're the final say on how the tournement is run anyway, so there's no reason they couldn't say, "this World Championship tournement will not allow duplicates of named characters" (or something akin to that).

Local venues are able to and during Wizkids hiatus and return, it seemed the local gloves came off and we have had great and imaginative tournament scenarios which have been very challenging. This past season our judge has really challenged our team building skills and I think we are all better players for it.
As far as official tournaments, realistically I don't see this happening. They already have their house rules: They're called the official rules. It's Wizkids house. Their version of a house rule would be to instate Highlander Format Tournaments which would become an official rule.
Actually I can't see why they can't satisfy both sides of this equation by adding a new HIGHLANDER FORMAT TOURNAMENT CHAMPIONSHIP in ADDITION to all the formats they already have.

PISCEAN

08/18/2010, 02:30

ANd about the new kid that just opens up his 1st box of clix? He'll get more. Don't try to fool me that you guys are looking out for the new kids. Most of us that are posting on here about this have how many post? None of us are new. You want to help them? Give them some of your dupes and unused stuff you're willing to get rid of. Even sell it cheap. That's how you can help the new kids. Don't try to sell me THEY want a team of 2x Jason Bloods and 2x Scarlet Witches with Smokey Foot Caps in the background.

Absolutley! Right on point.
We had a new player show up last night. Judge and every player that showed up handed him what dupes they could spare on the spot and we are all bringing more for the guy next week. 2 of us actually bought a couple boosters and gave the new guy all the dupes we pulled.
In addition, for our play group at least, our judge, who is an avid collector and player of clix offers anyone the opportunity to borrow any of his figures for tournament teams. They just have to e-mail him what figures they need. First come first serve though.

PISCEAN

08/18/2010, 02:41

actually i don't think it would help, you have now limited the options of the competitive player.

I think limiting the options would force us to design teams in a more dynamic and interesting way. Limiting the choices would make you think differently and alter the playing field. Now you have to look beyond multiple use of the top figures and extend consideration to others. Yes new cheese will be discovered but I think it will be harder to come by. At least the variety of figures you see on the table may vary a bit more even though top figures will always be favored.
In any case I'm in favor of trying to please both sides by adding a NEW Highlander Format Tournament Championship to the current existing tournament formats. Players can choose the format they like. Dupes or no dupes: YOU DECIDE!

sol

08/18/2010, 08:32

wow...REP TO YOU SIR!!! TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH!! highlander all day.

Didn't you have 2 Caps on your team at Worlds?

malger

08/18/2010, 08:51

Thrumble Funk

08/18/2010, 11:28

In any case I'm in favor of trying to please both sides by adding a NEW Highlander Format Tournament Championship to the current existing tournament formats. Players can choose the format they like. Dupes or no dupes: YOU DECIDE!

I'd be cool with this.

FrankyTheClamp

08/18/2010, 11:57

Ok Piscean, i have to agree with you on one major point, i would support a highlander FORMAT but i would not support it as a sweeping rules change.

Another question out there for the highlander supporters, at your local venues how many people show up with teams that consist of duplicates and is not thematic (we are talking the worlds like teams rather then my suggestion of a GL with 4 rookie green flames)

If the answer is rarely to never then really why do the rules need to be changed? If its for the sake of reading a better article about worlds then its not really worth it to overhaul the rules and errata old figures

PaxZRake

08/18/2010, 12:03

NO.

Then I would not be able to play my Nova Corps, my Multiple Men, my Sinestro Corps, or my Cowboy teams.

larthosgrr8

08/18/2010, 12:11

I would think that the highlander rule would actually stifle creativity. Think about it. As bad as you think it is now on the major tourney scene, it would only get worse if you went with comic accurate (which would automatically reduce the number of players since all players don't read comics) teams. Before you say anything, the highlander rule is allegedly all about comic accuracy. There are only a few comic accurate teams that would ever see their way to a major tournament. Runaways - not competitive. Power Pack - not competitive. Heroes for Hire - not competitive. Wildcard teams - not competitive without something to copy for the most part. You would probably be stuck with JLA, Avengers, JSA, GotG (maybe), Squadron Supreme and Asgardians, with Asgardians having the upper hand in most cases. Then you would have to make sure that the team is a valid team. Unless you have them all at your fingertips you would likely spend more time researching comic accuracy than you would building AND playing.

What about those who play but haven't read comics in a while or, those who just started reading comics?

I think Highlander and Comic accuracy would ruin the game, and this comes from a person who doesn't usually play duplicates or even large generic armies.

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
i think the opposite. highlander would make it so you'd actually have to think about the team build. now you can just take 2 or 3 of any figure you like and have a team. highlander will actually make u play with more characters and play a more diverse team.

the problem with the game now is ppl LACK originality. the world champ is a great guy, but i'd have liked to see his team with just one of the support pieces. i played a similar team the day before but it had shazam,klarion,jason blood, and moon knight. highlander rule will IMO bring the best out of any player. you can still use the cap or nightcrawler, but you now have one to depend on, not multiple.

i think outside of a sealed event all figs should be highlander except madrox,cuckoos, etc. this will let lots of other figures see play and overall just increase creativity. ppl can still mix and match, but now it'll be about building the best team with the best figures. not taking the best and cheapest powers/figs and making a team with them.

larthosgrr8

08/18/2010, 12:16

FrankyTheClamp

08/18/2010, 12:23

i think the opposite. highlander would make it so you'd actually have to think about the team build. now you can just take 2 or 3 of any figure you like and have a team. highlander will actually make u play with more characters and play a more diverse team.

the problem with the game now is ppl LACK originality. the world champ is a great guy, but i'd have liked to see his team with just one of the support pieces. i played a similar team the day before but it had shazam,klarion,jason blood, and moon knight. highlander rule will IMO bring the best out of any player. you can still use the cap or nightcrawler, but you now have one to depend on, not multiple.

everyone thinks it will breed creativity and variety, i guarantee we will have the same number of unique teams, they just wont feature duplicates and people will complain again. If you disallow dupes, you will still get stale tournaments, look at other games, high level is always like that people find the best and that is all they play

ppl can still mix and match, but now it'll be about building the best team with the best figures. not taking the best and cheapest powers/figs and making a team with them.

yes it will, high level will always be about min/maxing no matter what you do